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[Doctor Gollum]

Scanned through and following codes...

B1000
B1100
B1101
B1701

Tried both keys same result.

[Andy B]

I hope you have more luck than I've had with my dead Smart 451 .....

What code reader are you using? It seems that Mercs don't like talking to generic code readers and can be a little vague with their codes.

[Doctor Gollum]

I hope you have more luck than I've had with my dead Smart 451 .....

Well, it's probably cost me my contract at the end of October

[STEMO]

I hope you have more luck than I've had with my dead Smart 451 .....

Well, it's probably cost me my contract at the end of October

That's a defeatist attitude considering your knowledge of vehicles.

[Andy B]

I hope you have more luck than I've had with my dead Smart 451 .....

Well, it's probably cost me my contract at the end of October

That's a defeatist attitude considering your knowledge of vehicles.

The Smart specialist that my Smart is at has a great knowledge of these specific vehicles (& has access to many already dead Smarts) but is 'scratching his head' .... so Dr G has my sympathies 

[Doctor Gollum]

I hope you have more luck than I've had with my dead Smart 451 .....

Well, it's probably cost me my contract at the end of October

That's a defeatist attitude considering your knowledge of vehicles.

Not really... Don't be late and don't be sick if you want a permanent contract. I am already late.

Awaiting breakdown, as my black box is certain that it's immobiliser related. And can't give me any live data without the engine running... Doesn't see the rpm when cranking, for example.

[STEMO]

Hmmmm.........that's not good. A car shouldn't just 'die' and be impossible to diagnose, even if it's the electronics that are at fault.

[dave the builder]

oh dear
when your recovered and have chance ,check fuses,battery voltage, earth points etc
sounds like a  CAN communication issue between modules or power to one or more
you should be able to read ecm even with generic reader but if there is no canbus communication it all goes to sh!t
sometimes removing the battery does reset coms ,sometimes unplugging modules and plugging back in solves it
obviously this is just generic advice,not merc or model specific
 

[Andy B]

oh dear
when your recovered and have chance ,check fuses,battery voltage, earth points etc
sounds like a  CAN communication issue between modules or power to one or more
you should be able to read ecm even with generic reader but if there is no canbus communication it all goes to sh!t
sometimes removing the battery does reset coms ,sometimes unplugging modules and plugging back in solves it
obviously this is just generic advice,not merc or model specific

canbus communication or lack of is my Smart's problem .... disconnecting the battery by the recovery bloke doesn't seem to have done it any favours

[Doctor Gollum]

It had a few other codes but they all cleared except the immobiliser ones.

I run Carsoft MB on a dedicated laptop, and it's a bit clunky, but basically the order of attack is:

1. Full scan.
2. Single scan of each 'not ok' module.
3. Clear codes.
4. Rescan to ensure codes remain clear or present.
5. Once single scans done then repeat complete scan.

Usually comes back all good, so when all is left is the immobiliser codes, then reasonably confident that's where the problem lies

Battery ok, likewise fuses.

[biggriffin]

Battery in key fob?

[Raeturbo]

Have you kept your keys near you phone? Sometimes this can mess them up

[Doctor Gollum]

Breakdown/recovery bloke turned up. Jumped out with a booster pack. 

Me: It cranks.
Him: Oh. Okay.

Tries it, gets out his code reader and concludes that there are no codes  Then pokes around under the bonnet, goes back to the truck and returns. "See what happens with some easystart..."
Me: I'd prefer that you didn't...
Him: Pssssh. Try it now.

Of course it started and ran. Until the easystart ran out

His opinion is fuel pump, but I elected not to get it towed because there's no point paying a garage to do summat that I can easily do on the drive.

Fuses checked, relay worked but clicked of as cranked.
Bridged the relay and no pump. Ffs.

Kicked it and tried again. Pump ran. So refitted relay and tried again and it started.

But, still have all the immobiliser codes, the EML is now on (wasn't before  and can't reset it because the engine ecu isn't talking to anyone although it gives live data when it's running) , and get to work to find the central locking has stopped working.

All in all, not impressed.

[Doctor Gollum]

Battery in key fob?

Will replace to rule out.

Have you kept your keys near you phone? Sometimes this can mess them up

Not experienced this before, but not as a general occurrence 

[Doctor Gollum]

Looking at the codes and comms issues it appears that there's a CANbus problem somewhere.

Oh happy opposing days...

[Doctor Gollum]

On a positive note, a new Bosch pump is only about £65, even though the tank needs dropping

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

My Mercedes is currently also cranking but wont start. Nothing to do with electronics as it doesnt have any, but I have a gut feeling it may be a serious issue. Could be looking for another one next week.

[Doctor Gollum]

Fairly short list of potentials on one of those

[STEMO]

My Mercedes is currently also cranking but wont start. Nothing to do with electronics as it doesnt have any, but I have a gut feeling it may be a serious issue. Could be looking for another one next week.

Don't forget to drain the fuel tank before it goes, there might be as much as £1's worth in there.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical.
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy wnother half decent one though.

[Fuse 19]

Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN 

CAN doesn't just fail, its always a module, the major question is which one, if a unit communicates by some means, even if its only fault codes then CAN is fine.

In general, the BCM/Gateway (for DoIP) is the CAN master on most vehicles built in the last 15 years (although GM did use the display as a CAN bridge on some vehicles) or so, always worth a check.

[Fuse 19]

Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical.
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy wnother half decent one though.

Its not as simple as the fuel shutoff solenoid on the pump?

[Doctor Gollum]

Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN 

CAN doesn't just fail, its always a module, the major question is which one, if a unit communicates by some means, even if its only fault codes then CAN is fine.

In general, the BCM/Gateway (for DoIP) is the CAN master on most vehicles built in the last 15 years (although GM did use the display as a CAN bridge on some vehicles) or so, always worth a check.

The climate control has a single fault relating to CAN communication with the engine module... 

[Fuse 19]

Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN 

CAN doesn't just fail, its always a module, the major question is which one, if a unit communicates by some means, even if its only fault codes then CAN is fine.

In general, the BCM/Gateway (for DoIP) is the CAN master on most vehicles built in the last 15 years (although GM did use the display as a CAN bridge on some vehicles) or so, always worth a check.

The climate control has a single fault relating to CAN communication with the engine module... 

It happens quite regularly, if a module is a bit slow to boot up a CAN frame gets missed and it flags a CAN fault issue. These are often masked at end of line and never cause a significant issue.

So what codes are actually present and wont clear (with engine running);

[STEMO]

Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN 

CAN doesn't just fail, its always a module, the major question is which one, if a unit communicates by some means, even if its only fault codes then CAN is fine.

In general, the BCM/Gateway (for DoIP) is the CAN master on most vehicles built in the last 15 years (although GM did use the display as a CAN bridge on some vehicles) or so, always worth a check.

The climate control has a single fault relating to CAN communication with the engine module... 

It happens quite regularly, if a module is a bit slow to boot up a CAN frame gets missed and it flags a CAN fault issue. These are often masked at end of line and never cause a significant issue.

So what codes are actually present and wont clear (with engine running);

Fault code 000001..........this car is a Mercedes Benz 

[Doctor Gollum]

 

FZZ (immobiliser control module):
B1000
B1100
B1101
B1701

MSM (Throttle body):
Status:ERROR> Read error memory.
No codes displayed.

AC:
B1040
B1272

Think that's all that returns. Will double check later/tomorrow.

[Fuse 19]

Has the battery and connections all been ok?

Mercs throw real wobbles when you get battery issues and you have a spread of codes

[dave the builder]

also alternator over voltage or under voltage or a component/fault causing a parasitic draw can upset modules
so worth checking battery and alternator voltages 

[Doctor Gollum]

Has the battery and connections all been ok?

Mercs throw real wobbles when you get battery issues and you have a spread of codes

Battery is relatively new, 6 months perhaps... will run KWs tests

[Andy B]

Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN 

CAN doesn't just fail, its always a module, the major question is which one, if a unit communicates by some means, even if its only fault codes then CAN is fine.

In general, the BCM/Gateway (for DoIP) is the CAN master on most vehicles built in the last 15 years (although GM did use the display as a CAN bridge on some vehicles) or so, always worth a check.

I think this might the problem with my Smart 451 .... 2 garages have had 'communication problems'  I wonder if MB themselves might be worth a go.

[TheBoy]

Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN 

This is as true as 30 years ago when every mechanic blames the engine ECU for everything.

There is nothing difficult about CANBUS from a diags perspective, its just its "new"* and mechanics^# distrust what they haven't grasped.


* New as in most car designs for the last 15+ years have used it almost exclusively

^# Term used in the loose sense, to cover the usual knuckle draggers found at all dealerships

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical.
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy another half decent one though.

Its not as simple as the fuel shutoff solenoid on the pump?

Cracked the injector pipes open and fuel is getting up to the injectors. 
Gut feeling suspects are - air leaking into fuel supply, which is known to cause havoc. Knackered pump, which almost certainly means the end of the car. Head gasket, which will probably be the same result as knackered pump. 
I will try to find out from tomorrow when I should have time to have a play.

[Fuse 19]

Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical.
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy another half decent one though.

Its not as simple as the fuel shutoff solenoid on the pump?

Cracked the injector pipes open and fuel is getting up to the injectors. 
Gut feeling suspects are - air leaking into fuel supply, which is known to cause havoc. Knackered pump, which almost certainly means the end of the car. Head gasket, which will probably be the same result as knackered pump. 
I will try to find out from tomorrow when I should have time to have a play.

For awareness, you can still get fuel.to the rail with a knackered solenoid (as I discovered recently on a 1.6D VW engine).

However, there is no pressure behind it so it does  not crack the injectors (Bosch pump).

It's worth applying 12V direct to the solenoid to see if you can hear or feel it go click 

[Kevin Wood]

Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN 

This is as true as 30 years ago when every mechanic blames the engine ECU for everything.

There is nothing difficult about CANBUS from a diags perspective, its just its "new"* and mechanics^# distrust what they haven't grasped.


* New as in most car designs for the last 15+ years have used it almost exclusively

^# Term used in the loose sense, to cover the usual knuckle draggers found at all dealerships

I got given the task of developing a CAN module to drive a Ford Sierra rear light cluster for one of my A level electronics practicals so it's been around for at least 30 years, although it had a very slow start.

[Doctor Gollum]

Mercedes were an early adapter in the '91-'98 S Class with more and more complexity* in subsequent cars...

* this is actually an achievement as the W140 is stupidly over done

Jesting aside, is there a decent, straightforward book about CAN in order to get a better understanding of how it works?

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical.
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy another half decent one though.

Its not as simple as the fuel shutoff solenoid on the pump?

Cracked the injector pipes open and fuel is getting up to the injectors. 
Gut feeling suspects are - air leaking into fuel supply, which is known to cause havoc. Knackered pump, which almost certainly means the end of the car. Head gasket, which will probably be the same result as knackered pump. 
I will try to find out from tomorrow when I should have time to have a play.

For awareness, you can still get fuel.to the rail with a knackered solenoid (as I discovered recently on a 1.6D VW engine).

However, there is no pressure behind it so it does  not crack the injectors (Bosch pump).

It's worth applying 12V direct to the solenoid to see if you can hear or feel it go click 

Will need to check, but I don't think there is a solenoid or anything else electrical connected to the pump. I think its all mechanical.

[Fuse 19]

Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical.
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy another half decent one though.

Its not as simple as the fuel shutoff solenoid on the pump?

Cracked the injector pipes open and fuel is getting up to the injectors. 
Gut feeling suspects are - air leaking into fuel supply, which is known to cause havoc. Knackered pump, which almost certainly means the end of the car. Head gasket, which will probably be the same result as knackered pump. 
I will try to find out from tomorrow when I should have time to have a play.

For awareness, you can still get fuel.to the rail with a knackered solenoid (as I discovered recently on a 1.6D VW engine).

However, there is no pressure behind it so it does  not crack the injectors (Bosch pump).

It's worth applying 12V direct to the solenoid to see if you can hear or feel it go click 

Will need to check, but I don't think there is a solenoid or anything else electrical connected to the pump. I think its all mechanical.

A quick check suggests its vac operated (the Merc designers have a constant love of steam age vac operated setups for some reason). So check your vac connections

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Will do, thanks.

Apologies to DG for thread hijack. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Just a quick update, finally got around to checking for codes and the voltages.

Cleaned the MAF sensor... it was quite sooty and ran the diagnostics again, took several attempts with the ignition on, off and running, but eventually got some sense out of the engine ecu. Reset it and now no EML

Battery/alternator checked out and on the OK side of inconclusive. Load applied was heated rear screen, headlights + main beam and blower on full.

Battery ign off, 14v.
Battery ign off load, dropped to 12.4v.
Cranking minimum, split second 10.39v.
Idle no load 13.99v.
Fast idle no load 14.08v
Idle load 13.8v
Fast idle load 14.08v

All perfectly OK, if a smidge low at fast idle.

Battery was brand new, around Easter iirc.

Touch wood, no further fuel pump issues either.