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Author Topic: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight  (Read 447 times)

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tunnie

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Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« on: 12 August 2019, 10:04:22 »

3.2 is suffering a miss-fire on startup, when cold started first thing in the morning it misses on one cylinder. Blip the throttle a few times and within ~5-10 seconds it clears and runs fine. Then on 25 mile run it's all good, don't have any issues.

Start to go home after work, it's generally good, although sometimes will do same thing.

Codes are 0300 and 0305, so missing on pot5.

Both banks had replacement coil packs, as part of new cam covers, all fitted by Serek (be it sourced from here, so used) and I've put new spark plugs in 1-3-5 bank.

What's troubling me is I also have a minor coolant loss, which I cannot track down.  :-\ - Not sure if it's linked, as always told the 3.2 HG's are bullet proof.  :-\

Only time I've seen similar issues with with HG failure and coolant weeping into the cylinder, miss-firing on startup and then clearing.  :-\

« Last Edit: 12 August 2019, 10:06:34 by tunnie »
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #1 on: 12 August 2019, 10:07:49 »

As part of my house extension work many tools were moved away, so my compression tester is up in Brackley, might need to source that and test drivers side bank.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #2 on: 12 August 2019, 10:18:52 »

Remove 135 coil pack

Check for water or oil contamination (could be from scuttle foam etc)

Inspect coil pack boot

If nothing so far

- check plug is tight (they work loose)

If it is tight, remove it and inspect it. If thereís been water in the pot (unlikely) it will appear washed.

You should find the cause there somewhere.

Compression test it by all means but thatís likely to be inconclusive imho in these circs
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VXL V6

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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #3 on: 12 August 2019, 10:20:57 »

How do you know the used coil pack is good?
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #4 on: 12 August 2019, 10:25:17 »

Just about to post some pictures, coil packs removed all good, these are the replacements that serek fitted.

How do you know the used coil pack is good?

I don't... but it had the miss-fire before I took it to Serek. Fault has remained across 2 packs, so I find it unlikely the packs are at fault.
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tunnie

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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #5 on: 12 August 2019, 10:28:03 »

Coil pack boots fine...



Pot5 plug...

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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #6 on: 12 August 2019, 10:58:41 »

Possibly wiring, esp if disturbed recently for hbv work*. but are these the plugs you changed last week  :-\

Also pic of coil pack is largely useless...

Need to see the condition of the metal plates... Visible through the slots on the underside. Any hint of corrosion and they're on borrowed time.

Plug thread also looks rusty so probably a sign of water ingress, most likely scuttle related. After all, it's not like there's been any rain lately.

* For the record, I am not suggesting that anything Serek might have done has caused this, but the 3.2s do get hot and the loom may well be starting to go brittle, especially if it hasn't been disturbed for a while :-\

It wouldn't be the first 3.2 loom I have had to change for a persistent misfire.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #7 on: 12 August 2019, 11:04:18 »

The loom in MotherT's 3.0 Estate is what killed it in the end, random miss-fires, tracked it down to splits in number of wires on a massive loom.

Serek did not put new plugs in, but he did strip down the replacement coil packs and sort boots out. Close visual inspection of coil pack showed no obvious cracks or damage. That said they are quite old these replacements, I bought them years ago when Omegas were being broken all the time and parts were super cheap.

I cleared all the codes again today as arrived at work, will see which ones come back again. Can only think brand new coil pack might be last option, before considering either loom or possible HG. (seeing how coolant loss goes)

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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #8 on: 12 August 2019, 11:12:42 »

Possibly wiring, esp if disturbed recently for hbv work*. but are these the plugs you changed last week  :-\

Also pic of coil pack is largely useless...

Need to see the condition of the metal plates... Visible through the slots on the underside. Any hint of corrosion and they're on borrowed time.

Plug thread also looks rusty so probably a sign of water ingress, most likely scuttle related. After all, it's not like there's been any rain lately.

* For the record, I am not suggesting that anything Serek might have done has caused this, but the 3.2s do get hot and the loom may well be starting to go brittle, especially if it hasn't been disturbed for a while :-\

It wouldn't be the first 3.2 loom I have had to change for a persistent misfire.
Plug thread looks to be oily (not rusty) to me :-\

Plug looks like it has been steam cleaned to me - but I would want to compare it with the other two plugs on that bank before fitting new head gasket(s).

I know that the 3.2 head gaskets *never* fail but the youngest Omega is now 16 years old. (also Tunnie used to be a demon anti freeze flusher but I bet it has been more than 4 years since he last changed the antifreeze on this one)
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tunnie

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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #9 on: 12 August 2019, 11:15:53 »

Iíll post other plugs shortly... age wise all 2 years, replaced when Kevin did Cambelt.

Coolant flush probably around 3 years ago, in attempt to improve heater matrix output.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #10 on: 12 August 2019, 11:39:43 »

Pot1



Pot3



Pot5

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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #11 on: 12 August 2019, 11:42:55 »

Nothing wrong with those.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #12 on: 12 August 2019, 11:53:14 »

Is it still losing coolant? I suspect that the drop was simply an airlock following hbv change and you simply hadn't checked it prior to getting home from work in an 'oh blast I meant to check the coolant level when I got back from... ' type of way.

Even an abused 3.2 should see over 250k without a headgasket going. And if it was leaking, the car would be consuming gallons of coolant. And you would hear it gurgle into the cylinder when you turned it off.

Coil pack, wiring or damp.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #13 on: 12 August 2019, 11:59:57 »

That said, a lot of what you have posted on this thread is completely at odds with...

This from Gen Car Chat...

Quote
I abandoned my 3.2 with him around 3 weeks ago, before I left for Ireland in the Zafira. Collected it today and it's running sweet as a nut!

When I limped it up there it would start but with a miss-fire and run lumpy but would generally sort itself out, managed to drop it there in successfully, it's had a mini overhaul...

- Cam Covers and gaskets
- New coil packs, which I had lying around. Although I may get brand new set. (old ones seriously cracked up)
- Oil and Filter change
- Oil change and gaskets on the gearbox, which now changes much smoother. Serek mentioned it was full of crud in the sump  :'( - That said it changes smoother than before, so maybe some life left in it yet.
- Fuel filter change
- Brake Fluid flush and change
- HBV change, source of coolant leak. Was only 2 year old genuine example.

If you're trying to justify binning it for a new car, say it out loud and get done... If not, decide what the issue actually is so that we can help more productively  ;)
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #14 on: 12 August 2019, 12:42:18 »

Not looking to get shot, it's still loosing coolant. Around fingers width in header tank every ~50 miles or so.

Coil packs dry, no sign of moisture. Might have to try a new coil pack first, don't fancy trying to find fault in the loom.

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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #15 on: 12 August 2019, 12:56:45 »

Loom fault will either be the trigger wire between the ecu and the coil pack plug or a busted plug not fitting the coil pack correctly... Easily crushed when fitting the coil pack if not paying attention.  ;)

Coolant has more chance of being the radiator than the head... But if it's not hitting the floor, it is evaporating off. Don't ignore the header tank, cracks around the cap neck can look like moulding seams ;)

Hth :y
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #16 on: 12 August 2019, 13:29:29 »

Was very careful refitting everything, ordered a replacement new cap. Fingers crossed itís that.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #17 on: 12 August 2019, 18:58:16 »

Can you smell coolant when it's hot / cooling down? Had to replace radiators in a couple of Omegas I've had because of fine cracks at the very top of the n/s plastic shroud - as it gets worse you see it dripping by the drain plug that gives the impression that the drain plug is weeping.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #18 on: 12 August 2019, 19:09:08 »

you could rig up a simple pressure test rig with a foot pump and some hose clamps and hose  :-\
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #19 on: 12 August 2019, 19:50:36 »

you could rig up a simple pressure test rig with a foot pump and some hose clamps and hose  :-\


Get a mountain bike or motor bike inner tube, cut it opposite the valve and attach to the cooling system in place of the driver's side radiator hose. Pressurise to 1bar, and go for a long lunch. It should hold pressure for that long. You can check used radiators this way, although it's pointless when a new one is <£100
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #20 on: 12 August 2019, 19:51:42 »

Can you smell coolant when it's hot / cooling down? Had to replace radiators in a couple of Omegas I've had because of fine cracks at the very top of the n/s plastic shroud - as it gets worse you see it dripping by the drain plug that gives the impression that the drain plug is weeping.

Yes! There is a general whiff of coolant when hot and as I get out of the car. Iíll have a look around that area, so you have to take plastic top trim off to see it?

you could rig up a simple pressure test rig with a foot pump and some hose clamps and hose  :-\

Itís been pressure tested are Serekís = All good
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #21 on: 12 August 2019, 20:02:05 »

Yes trims off a decent torch, difficult to see clearly but may see traces / stains of dried up coolant in that area.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #22 on: 12 August 2019, 20:04:28 »


you could rig up a simple pressure test rig with a foot pump and some hose clamps and hose  :-\

Itís been pressure tested are Serekís = All good
coolant is going somewhere , so not all good  :(


you could rig up a simple pressure test rig with a foot pump and some hose clamps and hose  :-\


Get a mountain bike or motor bike inner tube, cut it opposite the valve and attach to the cooling system in place of the driver's side radiator hose. Pressurise to 1bar, and go for a long lunch. It should hold pressure for that long. You can check used radiators this way, although it's pointless when a new one is <£100

I was thinking remove and blank the small overflow/return at the expansion tank ,then that leaves a small bore pipe to attach pump too ,easy to get at
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #24 on: 13 August 2019, 19:59:46 »

Remove plenum (but keep its coolant lines in tack. Remove intake. Pressure cooling system to about 8psi. Visually look for leaks in valley, rad sides, coolant bottle, and block to head areas.


Misfire - jump in it tomorrow. Flow throttle to full kickdown, and crank - it shouldn't start. Crank for a good 5s, and repeat. Then start normally. Improvement? If so, replace injector.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #25 on: 13 August 2019, 21:15:32 »

Will try pedal start trick, in Wales until Sunday though in the Zafira.

I have no means to pressure test coolant system.  :(
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #26 on: 13 August 2019, 21:19:11 »

Will try pedal start trick, in Wales until Sunday though in the Zafira.

I have no means to pressure test coolant system.  :(
Do you own a bicycle pump?
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #27 on: 14 August 2019, 01:15:09 »

Will try pedal start trick, in Wales until Sunday though in the Zafira.

I have no means to pressure test coolant system.  :(
Do you own a bicycle pump?


that, a cheap bike inner tube and a couple of hose clamps.
Or a screw a replacement Schrader metal valve into a new(that doesn't leak) expansion cap and pressurise using your bike pump, less than 1bar is enough.
You could buy a test set, but you'll probably have to bodge an adapter so it's not worth the expense for the use you'll get.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #28 on: 14 August 2019, 12:25:51 »

I would have to buy all that, plus no time to do it.

Just realised though, Iíve not checked the passenger footwell yet to see if thatís wet.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #29 on: 14 August 2019, 12:54:12 »

I would have to buy all that, plus no time to do it.



Oh.


Back to guessing then.


Good luck
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #30 on: 14 August 2019, 13:31:03 »

I would have to buy all that, plus no time to do it.



Oh.


Back to guessing then.


Good luck

1) itís already been pressure tested, by Serek. (As mentioned in another thread) - Nothing found. Why would I be different with a bodged setup?


2) Iíve bought UV dye kit to help trace the leak.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #31 on: 14 August 2019, 13:47:27 »

1. It's possible that the leak wasn't immediately obvious due to the car being cold/hot/heater on/off etc.

2. If you don't have time to run a simple check, how will this help?

Also the only thing that you will find in the passenger footwell is rain water as all the heater connections are on the right ::)

When you say the drivers footwell is dry, did you lift the actual carpet? The insulation underneath will hold  couple of litres easily...
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #32 on: 14 August 2019, 13:50:12 »

As I recall the heater matrix can break and leak into passenger footwell
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #33 on: 14 August 2019, 15:22:56 »

As I recall the heater matrix can break and leak into passenger footwell


You wouldn't be struggling to diagnose a heater matrix leak.
Your nose will tell you what the problem is every time you get in the car.
Even a small leak will soak into the plentiful sound deadening and smell for ages.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #34 on: 14 August 2019, 15:40:48 »

As I recall the heater matrix can break and leak into passenger footwell
Only when the drivers one is full up.
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #35 on: 14 August 2019, 15:42:13 »

As I recall the heater matrix can break and leak into passenger footwell


You wouldn't be struggling to diagnose a heater matrix leak.
Your nose will tell you what the problem is every time you get in the car.
Even a small leak will soak into the plentiful sound deadening and smell for ages.
Also largely true if it is leaking anywhere near the engine or exhaust  :y
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Re: Starting with a miss-fire, when left overnight
« Reply #36 on: 14 August 2019, 22:30:45 »

Any smoke? From exhaust :D
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