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Author Topic: HS 2 to be "reviewed "  (Read 2487 times)

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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #45 on: 28 August 2019, 11:43:42 »

I would state that although some projects, like HS2, are daunting and very controversial, if we, the British, are going to really  put "Great" in front of Britain, we MUST change our national attitudes.

I touched on the engineers of the 18th and 19th century.  They had one thing in common; "they could do that, they could do this, they did do that, they did this"  No matter what the challenges, financial or practical, the negativity around them, with so many saying "that is impossible!", "that cannot be done!", "life will cease if you do that!", etc, etc.  They DID it! 8) 8)

All I hear today is excuses as to why things "can't be done", "shouldn't be done", "it will destroy/upset/disturb everyone!", "it is too costly".  Pure negativity!!

If we are going to be GREAT again, with or without BREXIT, we MUST start "doing" again; striving forward, taking risks, doing what is going to propel our nation forward, away from the EU, controlling, 'scarred of their shadow', politicians or any other controlling forces.

Then together we WILL achieve and be Great again. ;)

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Doctor Gollum

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #46 on: 28 August 2019, 12:47:11 »

I agree re the less whining and more doing ;)

However doing ill-conceived shit for the mere sake of doing is a hiding to nothing.

Far better instead to do clearly defined things of purpose  ;)
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Nick W

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #47 on: 28 August 2019, 13:02:16 »

I agree re the less whining and more doing ;)

However doing ill-conceived shit for the mere sake of doing is a hiding to nothing.

Far better instead to do clearly defined things of purpose  ;)


Which is the bit Lizzie missed out, like the Victorian attempt at a channel tunnel and other experimental stuff that never worked. Making up stuff as you go along is not a feasible approach for large public projects. Unless there's a war on......
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Varche

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #48 on: 28 August 2019, 13:02:46 »

I agree re the less whining and more doing ;)

However doing ill-conceived shit for the mere sake of doing is a hiding to nothing.

Far better instead to do clearly defined things of purpose  ;)

Spot on.

They have got to deliver value for money and be of use.

The Victorians did have spectacular failures. Things like the white elephant Caldonian canal. Great idea at the time but turned out to be a white elephant.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #49 on: 28 August 2019, 14:17:08 »

I agree re the less whining and more doing ;)

However doing ill-conceived shit for the mere sake of doing is a hiding to nothing.

Far better instead to do clearly defined things of purpose  ;)


Which is the bit Lizzie missed out, like the Victorian attempt at a channel tunnel and other experimental stuff that never worked. Making up stuff as you go along is not a feasible approach for large public projects. Unless there's a war on......

But that is how the canals and railways were built, the London Underground, the London water and sewerage system that spread to other cities after the "experiment" was found to be successful.  The chunnel was achieved eventually once the technology was created, and the will found, to complete what the Victorians envisaged - like they envisaged big, steel hulled ships ("that will NEVER float!") but now travel the World..  Yes, of course there were failures, sometimes very big ones , like the SS Great Eastern (way ahead of it's time) and the Tay Bridge failure, but those led to what we see today.  The old adages of "What you do not try you will never know"; "Nothing ventured nothing gained" and "You learn by trial and error" come to mind.

That is was I meant, so many today want to seek reasons why not to try something and take a risk. And our generation moan about the young "snowflakes" - I think I know why they are like it!! ::) ::) ;)
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Nick W

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #50 on: 28 August 2019, 14:29:01 »

Those were all done with private money(to make the profit you know about) and didn't matter when they failed. Success in such ventures was rare then, and is rare now because they still happen. The difference is that there are more of us(nearly six times as many as 200 years ago) with higher expectations and requirements. There are very good reasons why we no longer allow landowners to carve transport across their land, or build factories wherever they want.


Trying to force an outdated, inefficient, outrageously expensive 'technology' like HS2 to solve a problem that doesn't exist is not 'taking a risk'. At best it is backward looking, and at worst inept, ignorant and incompetent.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #51 on: 28 August 2019, 14:30:59 »

For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doth not first sit down and count the cost, whether he have wherewith to complete it?

Brunel didn't simply turn up one day with a couple blokes and a spade ;D
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Nick W

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #52 on: 28 August 2019, 14:52:25 »

For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doth not first sit down and count the cost, whether he have wherewith to complete it?

Brunel didn't simply turn up one day with a couple blokes and a spade ;D


No, he had a plan based on education, training and experience which enabled him to raise some of the money. There were always money issues with the GWR for instance, as the suits wanted their money back quicker than the plan was going to provide. Which they knew because other railways were doing it.
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TheBoy

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #53 on: 28 August 2019, 18:23:07 »

What I do want is the costs to be realistic, and true commercial managerial controls to be established, with civil servants and thick politicians left out of the equation.
Regularly check your backside. Because that ain't gonna happen whilst you have a hole there ;)

It will *NEVER* be cost effective enough for a private enterprise to take it on. Remember, even with the initial massaged figures, and full trains 24x7 every 3 minutes, it still could only cover 40% of its running costs, let alone build costs, according to Network Rail (before part was spun off to HS2 Ltd)

So if we want it - and I don't think anyone does, because it goes from nowhere to nowhere in Phase 1 - we have to let the civil service do it, and add at least another 0 to the latest build figure. And aim for 25% max of its current income from fares. Which will mean a 90% taxpayer subsidy for every fare.
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TheBoy

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #54 on: 28 August 2019, 18:27:14 »

I would state that although some projects, like HS2, are daunting and very controversial, if we, the British, are going to really  put "Great" in front of Britain, we MUST change our national attitudes.

I touched on the engineers of the 18th and 19th century.  They had one thing in common; "they could do that, they could do this, they did do that, they did this"  No matter what the challenges, financial or practical, the negativity around them, with so many saying "that is impossible!", "that cannot be done!", "life will cease if you do that!", etc, etc.  They DID it! 8) 8)

All I hear today is excuses as to why things "can't be done", "shouldn't be done", "it will destroy/upset/disturb everyone!", "it is too costly".  Pure negativity!!

If we are going to be GREAT again, with or without BREXIT, we MUST start "doing" again; striving forward, taking risks, doing what is going to propel our nation forward, away from the EU, controlling, 'scarred of their shadow', politicians or any other controlling forces.

Then together we WILL achieve and be Great again. ;)
According to a programme the other day, might have been Tarrant or Portillo or someone else ;D, the UK rail industry has never, ever, ever made a profit. Its always been net loss.

Beeching was too liberal, as there is only so long you can flog a dead horse, and we need to give up after 200yrs of misery.  He should have closed *ALL* unprofitable services, not just the worse.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #55 on: 28 August 2019, 18:28:13 »

Those were all done with private money(to make the profit you know about) and didn't matter when they failed. Success in such ventures was rare then, and is rare now because they still happen. The difference is that there are more of us(nearly six times as many as 200 years ago) with higher expectations and requirements. There are very good reasons why we no longer allow landowners to carve transport across their land, or build factories wherever they want.


Trying to force an outdated, inefficient, outrageously expensive 'technology' like HS2 to solve a problem that doesn't exist is not 'taking a risk'. At best it is backward looking, and at worst inept, ignorant and incompetent.

Yes, most were as the Government of the day had no thought or conception of "Nationalisation".  With just one exception I will refer to, the 1858 Government contract for the building of a sewer system for London, the majority of the rest were built due to private enterprise, a desire to build a better future, along with, yes, the life long temptation a man, corruption, like George Hudson and his railway 'empire'.

But in the end the canal building, then the likes of the Manchester to Liverpool Railway, along with all the other major lines built, pushed the country's economy from one based on agriculture to a booming, World beating, industrial society, creating thousands of jobs (yes, there WAS a downside to that from a social point of view).  The gas and electric industry grew across the country by way of private investment and the usual potential of the essential "Profit".  But all this, and so much more, developed due to government allowing and encouraging private enterprise to build the country's infrastructure fit for the next century.  A highly successful approach, with of course some failures being propped up by public funds., but overall Britain profiting from it all.

That is what should be the case now; let private enterprise take on infrastructure projects, seeking out potential benefits, as they do every day in the industrial and civil world in the UK, taking the risks, but enjoying the profits.  That way 'budget' and 'completion' over-runs will be their sand the investor problem, not the British taxpayer.  Efficiency and commercial common sense will then prevail, unlike with the financially controversial HS2/3/4. I am a Conservative who believes in private commercial power, but somehow Conservative Governments have got themselves bogged down in a "Nationalised" civil project. Not good!! :o :o

Just imagine what Labour will do, if they were ever to get into power anytime soon, as normally Nationalisation is their field of interest?! ::) ::) :P :P ;)
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TheBoy

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #56 on: 28 August 2019, 18:36:20 »

That is what should be the case now; let private enterprise take on infrastructure projects, seeking out potential benefits, as they do every day in the industrial and civil world in the UK, taking the risks, but enjoying the profits.
But what private enterprise is going to spend 100s of billions building it, then run it at a massive loss?

Come on, you reckon you're a business whizz, explain it ;)
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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #57 on: 28 August 2019, 18:45:37 »

Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #58 on: 28 August 2019, 18:46:09 »

Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
Chinese investment  ::)
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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #59 on: 28 August 2019, 19:03:14 »

Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.
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I don't tolerate bickering, and I'm always grumpy.
And Lizzie Zoom says I'm a heartless bastid...and she's absolutely correct!
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