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Author Topic: HS 2 to be "reviewed "  (Read 2484 times)

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Nick W

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #60 on: 28 August 2019, 19:11:28 »

Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.


supposedly privatised utilities which still suck up a lot of public money that goes abroad - a monumentally stupid thing to have done. A tribal governmental system that changes direction every few years and is fundamentally opposed to the compromises that lomg term planning requires. Loads of reasons.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #61 on: 28 August 2019, 19:14:54 »

That is what should be the case now; let private enterprise take on infrastructure projects, seeking out potential benefits, as they do every day in the industrial and civil world in the UK, taking the risks, but enjoying the profits.
But what private enterprise is going to spend 100s of billions building it, then run it at a massive loss?

Come on, you reckon you're a business whizz, explain it ;)

Because, as in the case of the Big Four Railway Companies 1923-48, you have to judge any "Profits" taking into account the overall benefits to the UK economy, not with a short sighted, negative, approach.  The value of the GWR, LMS, LNER, and Southern to the British economy was enormous, and could not be easily assessed as a set of figures.  Movements of massive amounts of coal and steel by the LNER to factories producing goods, and GWR shifted milk and fish, along with passengers, that kept the West Country Holiday industry busy, and all benefited the overall economy, must be taken into account. The Southern moved huge volumes of workers to and from London, all contributing to the British economy.  The LMS, along with the LNER, also moved large quantities of minerals, but also both allowed the North to South and back transit of thousands of passengers.

The former 123 railway companies before 1923 shifted huge quantities of war materials and troops during he 1914-18 conflict, then again the Big Four repeated that exercise, but to an even greater degree, during 1939-45.  But, very crucially after each of those conflicts the British Government of the day did not come close to the true costs of those movements and transits, let alone the wear and tear to locomotives, rolling stock, lines and the infrastructure generally. It left all the companies after those events reeling and loss making as they tied desperately to refurbish, repair and replace.  That is one reason why the Grouping of 1st January 1923 happened, and Nationalisation on 1st January 1948, with then the railways virtually bankrupt after sustaining all the costs of war. THe PROFIT to the country in both cases of being able to use the railways in war work was incalculable, but never appreciated!!

The LNER also had suffered more than most from the depression of the 1930's with their very considerable coal and steel traffic decimated and profits wiped out.

So, you cannot judge them purely on their profit generation, without taking the wider benefits, or not, into account.  That is what some are doing with HS2; the profit that company may make, or not, from their operations cannot be assessed alone.  The wider benefits, and PROFITS, of northern companies, industries, and the eased movement of people must be part of the business case to give a qualified opinion of the worth, or not, of building the line.  Just think where Britain would be now without the canals, then railways; a backward, third rate power with no global recognition, and probably with ll of us speaking German! :o :o

 ;)
« Last Edit: 28 August 2019, 19:33:55 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #62 on: 28 August 2019, 19:43:22 »

Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.


How narrow minded and limited in comprehension! :o :o :o

So the 1.8 billion who travel  the railways yearly, up 3% on last year, 600,000 who travel daily on the Southern railways, up 3.9%, along with freight traffic does not matter then?!!

Like you rudely suggested I check my backside, I reckon you should lift your head up from an IT screen and recognise was is actually happening now, not in virtual form! ::) ::) ::) :D :D ;)
« Last Edit: 28 August 2019, 19:44:54 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Lizzie Zoom

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Doctor Gollum

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #64 on: 28 August 2019, 19:51:32 »

Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.


How narrow minded and limited in comprehension! :o :o :o

So the 1.8 billion who travel  the railways yearly, up 3% on last year, 600,000 who travel daily on the Southern railways, up 3.9%, along with freight traffic does not matter then?!!

Like you rudely suggested I check my backside, I reckon you should lift your head up from an IT screen and recognise was is actually happening now, not in virtual form! ::) ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Most of Southerns passengers are commuters, of whom, the bulk would use any other means of getting to Lundun if one were reasonably available  :-X

The company makes a profit by failing to operate the services to which it is contracted... Combining Southern, Thames link and Gatwick Express schedules only masks the deficiencies and does nothing to improve either the services or their value.
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Nick W

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #65 on: 28 August 2019, 21:31:14 »

Most of Southerns passengers are commuters, of whom, the bulk would use any other means of getting to Lundun if one were reasonably available  :-X

The company makes a profit by failing to operate the services to which it is contracted... Combining Southern, Thames link and Gatwick Express schedules only masks the deficiencies and does nothing to improve either the services or their value.


The railway is not helped by the stupid way it was privatised; breaking it back into small regional companies, with the track maintenance being another was a hugely backward step.


Trains into London are slow, nasty and expensive. But driving into town is MUCH worse, which is how Southern Rail gets away with their atrocious service.
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ronnyd

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #66 on: 28 August 2019, 22:42:44 »

On the subject of a national water grid, i,m sure i read once that it was not feasible to pump water over long distances, due to the quality of the water degrading. I have no proof of this,  so just wondering if anyone else on here has heard of this?  :-\
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #67 on: 28 August 2019, 23:32:53 »

On the subject of a national water grid, i,m sure i read once that it was not feasible to pump water over long distances, due to the quality of the water degrading. I have no proof of this,  so just wondering if anyone else on here has heard of this?  :-\
Keeping the entire network protected both physically and chemically would be almost impossible.
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Nick W

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #68 on: 29 August 2019, 08:50:35 »

On the subject of a national water grid, i,m sure i read once that it was not feasible to pump water over long distances, due to the quality of the water degrading. I have no proof of this,  so just wondering if anyone else on here has heard of this?  :-\
Keeping the entire network protected both physically and chemically would be almost impossible.


It is now. Southern Water encourage visitors to the main water supply for Kent and Sussex.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #69 on: 29 August 2019, 11:49:17 »

Most of Southerns passengers are commuters, of whom, the bulk would use any other means of getting to Lundun if one were reasonably available  :-X

The company makes a profit by failing to operate the services to which it is contracted... Combining Southern, Thames link and Gatwick Express schedules only masks the deficiencies and does nothing to improve either the services or their value.


The railway is not helped by the stupid way it was privatised; breaking it back into small regional companies, with the track maintenance being another was a hugely backward step.


Trains into London are slow, nasty and expensive. But driving into town is MUCH worse, which is how Southern Rail gets away with their atrocious service.

All points absolutely correct Nick! :y :y :y :y

And the "track maintenance" is under Network Rail, the still nationalised section of the industry.  Crazy! ::) ::) >:(

Why did the railways not go back to a form as in the days of the Big Four, where everything that happened in their 'region' of the railway business was completely down to them and their shareholders?  When things went wrong they could not blame another company; their track teams were theirs, no one else's.  That meant personal and corporate full responsibility.  It also meant that each company was a competitor in giving the public the best possible service, otherwise their profits would be severely hit. 

That was particularly true of those companies competing to transit passengers, and freight, to the North; the LMS, LNER, and to a lesser extent, with traffic from the South West into the Midlands, the GWR. The former two fought a battle of speed in the 1930's, each trying to outshine the other with ever faster, streamlined, high profile trains, with even the LNER managing to win the record of the fastest steam railway engine ever, Mallard travelling at 126 mph in 1938, although it did wreck the bearings and motion of that engine in the process! But that is how it was so important in PR terms, and to show the public "come to us, we are the best company to get you from South to North".

Of course their had been the famous Races To The North in the 1880's, and in particular The Race in 1885, between the then GNR and NER,    incorporated into the LNER in 1923.

That is what happens when there is true healthy competition between private companies vying for the public's business. Not the mess we now have of no real competition, a mix of private and public companies, with the Government, us, picking up the bill when it all goes wrong. You cannot mix a cake with those ingredients and hope to achieve the right result. >:( >:(

It must be one or the other ingredient; Privatisation or Nationalisation ;)
« Last Edit: 29 August 2019, 11:51:20 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Varche

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #70 on: 29 August 2019, 13:02:30 »

Both are a disaster without proper checks and controls.

Nationalisation is a blank cheque book.  Privatisation just a way to increase the gap between the haves and have nots. 
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TheBoy

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #71 on: 29 August 2019, 19:22:55 »

Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.
How narrow minded and limited in comprehension! :o :o :o
Again, you utterly misunderstand the industry.  Take a trip to any railway town, such as Swindon, visit a pub, and chat to anyone who works on the railway.


Narrow Minded?  Nah, just not gullible.  The gullible are those who think HS2 are a good idea.


And as for your other argument that the "profits" of the industry, I take that as a complete admission that you concur that this daft Victorian tech has never pulled a profit.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #72 on: 29 August 2019, 19:44:00 »

Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.
How narrow minded and limited in comprehension! :o :o :o
Again, you utterly misunderstand the industry.  Take a trip to any railway town, such as Swindon, visit a pub, and chat to anyone who works on the railway.


Narrow Minded?  Nah, just not gullible.  The gullible are those who think HS2 are a good idea.

As for Swindon.......you obviously don't understand that Swindon is no longer a town full of railway workers as in the wonderful days of the GWR.  Ask any retired workers who worked in the vast complex who they blame for all it's demise. They will say "the bloody government" who allowed the building of the engines and rolling stock to be taken over by just a few railway centres, then surrender that to foreign countries! ;)



And as for your other argument that the "profits" of the industry, I take that as a complete admission that you concur that this daft Victorian tech has never pulled a profit.



No, because that would be historically incorrect. ;)

As for Swindon..........you have obviously failed to understand that the great railway town is no more, and no longer houses masses of railway workers.  Ask any of the retired workers who built great locomotives and everything else for the GWR (as I have in the past) who they blame for the demise of the extensive plant and the answer will be "the bloody government / politicians" who allowed the business to go to other plants, like Derby and Doncaster, then in turn allowed foreign companies to take the orders.

Sorry TB, but it is you who mis-understands the railway industry, and of course also cares not a jot for it. ::) ::)
« Last Edit: 29 August 2019, 19:58:54 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #73 on: 29 August 2019, 20:10:57 »

Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.
How narrow minded and limited in comprehension! :o :o :o
Again, you utterly misunderstand the industry.  Take a trip to any railway town, such as Swindon, visit a pub, and chat to anyone who works on the railway.


Narrow Minded?  Nah, just not gullible.  The gullible are those who think HS2 are a good idea.

As for Swindon.......you obviously don't understand that Swindon is no longer a town full of railway workers as in the wonderful days of the GWR.  Ask any retired workers who worked in the vast complex who they blame for all it's demise. They will say "the bloody government" who allowed the building of the engines and rolling stock to be taken over by just a few railway centres, then surrender that to foreign countries! ;)



And as for your other argument that the "profits" of the industry, I take that as a complete admission that you concur that this daft Victorian tech has never pulled a profit.



No, because that would be historically incorrect. ;)

As for Swindon..........you have obviously failed to understand that the great railway town is no more, and no longer houses masses of railway workers.  Ask any of the retired workers who built great locomotives and everything else for the GWR (as I have in the past) who they blame for the demise of the extensive plant and the answer will be "the bloody government / politicians" who allowed the business to go to other plants, like Derby and Doncaster, then in turn allowed foreign companies to take the orders.

Sorry TB, but it is you who mis-understands the railway industry, and of course also cares not a jot for it. ::) ::)

........and that last sentence also applies to the politicians and their lack of understanding of the railways over now decades, after they drove out the real, professional, in the blood after generations, of railway men. They used to care by giving their all to the railways, it was their life. Now the politicians who, like you TB, care not a damn about the railways pretend to know how to run them via 'managers' who come fresh faced from uni, or Unilever, etc,etc, and got it all wrong.

That is the real problem!  Meddling politicians, civil servants, and cardboard 'managers' , with so many who work on the railway treating it all as "just a job" >:(
« Last Edit: 29 August 2019, 20:13:05 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Rods2

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #74 on: 29 August 2019, 21:18:33 »

Look inside any economics text book and the first paragraph will say something along the lines of: "We live in a world of scarcity". This means we have finite amounts of everything including money, which is why it is so important for a nation's wealth that we do things well while providing good value for money because if you don't you spend on bad value frivolity compared to other nations then relatively you will get poorer. Most goods we buy are priced internationally as why would I want to sell it cheaper in market A will I can get a better price in market B. What is priced locally is seasonal local food, property, labour rates, taxes & other local costs. How well a country is doing & what they can relatively afford I call the McDonalds test & relively pricing between countries is interesting. In the late 1980's UK & US prices were similar, where as, these days where US growth rates have been consistently higher, today they cost about 20% more in the US.

In some countries the wealth difference is stark like North & South Korea & Venezuela with its massive oil reserves & Switzerland with has none. Our growth since 2008-2018 has been sluggish at 11% until you look at out near neighbours in the Eurozone where they have jointly only managed -2% so overall their economies are still smaller than in 2008! US growth has been 18% and China 235%.

So if you want a poor country then run your infrastructure on intangibles like Lizzie Zoom suggests, like it seems such a romantic Victorian thing to do, where as, if you want a rich country invest in projects so you get a return on investment (ROI) in a maximum of 20 to 50 years. By doing the former instead of the latter each bad investment makes your country poorer or vice versa to make it slightly richer. :y
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