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Author Topic: HS 2 to be "reviewed "  (Read 2483 times)

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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #75 on: 29 August 2019, 23:42:55 »

Look inside any economics text book and the first paragraph will say something along the lines of:
 "We live in a world of scarcity". This means we have finite amounts of everything including money, which is why it is so important for a nation's wealth that we do things well while providing good value for money because ........

So if you want a poor country then run your infrastructure on intangibles like Lizzie Zoom suggests, like it seems such a romantic Victorian thing to do, where as, if you want a rich country invest in projects so you get a return on investment (ROI) in a maximum of 20 to 50 years. By doing the former instead of the latter each bad investment makes your country poorer or vice versa to make it slightly richer. :y

"Romantic Victorian thing to do"!!!!!   There is nothing romantic (like TB you are hooked on the "Victorian" label! ::) ::)) in running railways.  They should be, with the correct railway management (please read my post on that point) a very effective and efficient method of moving mass numbers of people, 1.8 million journeys (in 2018) and 75.4 million tonnes of tons (2018-19) of freight around the land, with profits enjoyed by the particular railway company. They are a business tool used by the nation for it's business, not a nice picture of flowers in a field!! How condescending! >:( >:(

Without the railways, current, and new, the roads are further choked, but for someone thinking the alternative, the true costs of short haul flying, taking into account the environment, make that form of travel, if it was suitable for the 1.8 billion journeys, to be out of the question, and if it was it would mean the large expansion of airports is required, beyond those already proposed along with the protests. Rising oil prices, along with shortages/threat to supplies, is another consideration to be factored in. Then you have that 74 million tonnes of freight - where is that going to go, and how much fuel is going to be burnt as all the thousands of extra lorry loads sit in huge queues?

 So Rod, what do you suggest to keep the UK economy motoring along? If you were in power, instead of constantly critising those actually trying to make a difference, what would you do if in power to make travel of our increasing population not only possible, but completely free flowing at the speeds we all want? Practical suggestions only please, not the political waffle!

If you want to realise your prediction of a poor, third World (!!! ::) ::)) country then scrap the railways. Choke up even more the roads, then build thousands of miles of more motorways at unbelievable costs, destroying far more countryside and property, and greatly lengthening travelling times. That will knock on to thousands who will no longer be able to easily travel into London, Manchester, Bristol, etc, losing their jobs, with the businesses that relied on the manpower going under or moving abroad.

You put great play on:
 "We live in a world of scarcity". This means we have finite amounts of everything including money, which is why it is so important for a nation's wealth that we do things well while providing good value for money.....

yes, exactly, so we should create the answers to move ever greater numbers of people and freight around without using even more of what we have not got.

Run "infrastructure on intangibles"- what ever does that mean?  I am not suggesting everything is done without good accounting practice!  If you were to just take a little time to fully read my posts, instead of leaping to the keyboard and creating sound bites like that, you will note my severe criticism of the lack of seemingly (we await the conclusion of the review with great interest) business practice, judgement and management. Full, realistic, budgeting and thereafter monitoring and control, with the necessary adjustments, is essential for any business project, such as HS2.  Where do you get the idea I do not believe that?

Because you are, like some others, so obsessed and blinkered about this "Victorian" project that you believe cannot make a profit, that you fail to see the much wider picture of the opportunities and profits that HS2/3/4 will give to many communities across the whole nation (once again, a point I covered in an earlier post!). You are accusing me of not taking into account the cost vs. profit?  Well forget that one as my business life deemed I had to make that natural practice for me.  But in business, and particularly with railways which are long term investments, you MUST calculate the long term benefits, that may well incur tremendous costs like the High Speed lines, but will give, when taking the overall "profits" for the wider communities, the ROC that makes it all worthwhile, but it is the next generations that will gain from this one.

It may have escaped you, and others, that billion of pounds are being spent to completely upgrade the "Victorian" (as is loosely applied) railway system to increase capacity and efficiency. What the HS lines, like the HS1 line in Kent, will be the true 21st century version. Apart from the principle of wheels running on rails, which actually is not Victorian but dates from around 2,245 BC, the rest of the entity is very much the latest technology.

Oh, and what does China, that you correctly mention is displaying great growth, although currently in a dip, make of the "Victorian" railways?  They, as at December 2018, now have 18,000 miles (all the UK track mileage totals is 20,000) of High Speed lines, or 66% of the entire world's high speed network.  Most of the lines run at a profit, although it cost far less than ours to build due to the openness of the vast country.

Victorian indeed!! ::) ::) :D :D

« Last Edit: 29 August 2019, 23:57:03 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #76 on: 30 August 2019, 00:59:22 »

People only use trains in the UK because they lack a viable alternative, much like the way people use buses in the States. HS2 is akin to A Field of Dreams... Without the happy ending ;D

China has 18,000 miles of train lines because it is one of the largest countries on the planet, ::) besides, forced growth is not sustainable, which is why China is having a dip.

Incidentally a good watch for an insight into the Chinese way of doing things is American Factory, currently on Netflix. ;)
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Rods2

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #77 on: 30 August 2019, 02:28:44 »

If you want to invest in a relevant transport technology then invest in an ultra high speeds fibre-to-premises as that is our transport future. I work from home my neighbour opposite me is a certified Microsoft support person, who works for a London based company where is is physically there only once or twice a week which is why Boris is pushing this as he did when he was London mayor along with his IT incubators hub which are receiving record oversea investment where the UK attracts much more of this than any other European countries. Computer software, CGI & other related technologies will employ much more people working from home and is going to be an increasingly large percentage of the UK economy. I've been fortunate in picking the right industry st the right time as a digital hardware designer & computer programmer starting my career as the first generation of 8 bit microprocessors were introduced and earn a good live & often an exceptionally good challenging successful one earning multiple average salaries most of the time. I quickly learn't that the future is softare over hardware in terms of capital investment, running costs & profits, which is why I dropped the hardware design.

I do my local grocery shopping at out of town supermarkets & have had no need to visit any local town centre shopping centre for almost 4 years where they are expensive have limited choice compared to online retail. This is why high streets are dying. Although I visit clients normally by train in London many of my meetings these days involve informal & formal phone and video conferencing from my study office. This makes very efficient use of my time, with my long twice daily commute being from my large lounge, across my hall into to my large study office where I have two desks & chairs, so family and visitors can work there as well.

This is the future, is here for many now, including a massive army of gig economy self-employed programmers & artists who get their work through global websites like freelancer.com. I don't want or need an expensive, inefficient commute, clogging up roads & railways and this is the future for many, not only in IT but also other service industries like financial services, insurance etc. A person I do a lot of work for, where I do all his IT, runs a multi-million pound insurance brokerage from home, employing several people remotely who also work from home using a distributed wide-area VOIP phone network. This is the future for many & it is here now. He used to have an office where several people worked but finds it much more efficient to give this up & he is now earning as a result multiples of £100kpa as a result. I've also happy as I'm looked after well as well as his most key contractor.

The future is here now and people linked in the romanticism of the Victorian era are welcome to it as they live their retired life on a combination of victorian romanticism, old high street shopping methods and as Disraeli told us regrets, but this is irrelevant to more & more of the UK workforce.
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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #78 on: 30 August 2019, 06:32:27 »

Lizzie and Rods, have you ever thought, regarding transport, that, with the current population growth, there just may not be an answer. At all. Actual physical space is another finite thing and, without colonising the space we need to grow our food and keep our animals, we'll run out of that at some point.
So, we either live on synthetic food, or we evolve a system where people do not need to travel to work. Rods' idea about a superfast broadband system is great for desk jobs, but we also need to cater for people who do not work in that sector. It ain't easy, that's for sure.
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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #79 on: 30 August 2019, 08:39:17 »

There is an element of deja vu in all this.

Anyone remember in the 70’s us all being told “ we will all have more time in the future as computers do more of our work. You will only be doing a four or maybe three day week”

Now apparently robots will be doing our jobs.

So we will have a two tier society. Tier one working at home on super fast broadband  . tier 2 delivering food and products .

There will still be a grey area. People who cant be trusted to work from home , Jobs that can’t be done by robots. Those people will still have to travel around.

I think STEMO is right. Maybe there isnt a solution .
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #80 on: 30 August 2019, 11:24:25 »

More flights from regional airports perhaps :-\ It used to be possible to fly to most cities in the UK two or three times a day :-\

Modern aircraft are far more efficient than they used to be and it cannot be that far from 100 seater hybrid/all electric puddle jumpers...
« Last Edit: 30 August 2019, 11:40:22 by Doctor Gollum »
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Rods2

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #81 on: 30 August 2019, 13:54:07 »

There is an element of deja vu in all this.

Anyone remember in the 70’s us all being told “ we will all have more time in the future as computers do more of our work. You will only be doing a four or maybe three day week”

Now apparently robots will be doing our jobs.

So we will have a two tier society. Tier one working at home on super fast broadband  . tier 2 delivering food and products .

There will still be a grey area. People who cant be trusted to work from home , Jobs that can’t be done by robots. Those people will still have to travel around.

I think STEMO is right. Maybe there isnt a solution .

In demand high skill & knowledge creative industries jobs are well paid along with the traditional professional jobs like doctors, teachers, lawyers & accountants. One to many manufacturing used to be reasonably well paid together with skilled crafts people and alike, but their relative pay has dropped relative to the top tier. Semi skilled & unskilled are generally minimum wage, minimum benefits jobs often on zero hour contracts & this is unlikely to change anytime soon due to productivity growth through automation and the influx of large numbers of unskilled workers. A side effect of Brexit will be mass unskilled youth unemployment in the EU no longer being able to work in the UK where the points based immigration system favoured by Boris will be, IMV quite rightly, in only attracting highly skilled people to fill well paid vacancies. The semi-skilled & unskilled have been falling behind on pay in the Western world since the early 1980s when the IBM PC was introduced and this is the slow & subtle effect computer automation & productivity has had in the jobs market.

It is still too early to tell how big the impact will be with AI & how quickly this will change the jobs market dynamics. Looking how farming has changed over the past 50 years from using large numbers of farm labourers to just having a few skilled advanced machine operators shows how in this & many other sectors how low skilled jobs have been lost & more advanced harvesting machines will continue to reduce further those required for crop picking.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #82 on: 30 August 2019, 14:17:46 »

People only use trains in the UK because they lack a viable alternative, much like the way people use buses in the States. HS2 is akin to A Field of Dreams... Without the happy ending ;D

China has 18,000 miles of train lines because it is one of the largest countries on the planet, ::) besides, forced growth is not sustainable, which is why China is having a dip.

Incidentally a good watch for an insight into the Chinese way of doing things is American Factory, currently on Netflix. ;)

Yes, and that is why we must improve this fantastic method of mass movement of people and freight.  As the population grows, and the climate changes, the need for fast, efficient, affordable, pleasant to use, railways will become ever more important. There will increasingly be "no alternative" for many more people, unless someone invents a working teletransporter. ;D ;)
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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #83 on: 30 August 2019, 14:18:00 »

There is an element of deja vu in all this.

Anyone remember in the 70’s us all being told “ we will all have more time in the future as computers do more of our work. You will only be doing a four or maybe three day week”

Now apparently robots will be doing our jobs.

So we will have a two tier society. Tier one working at home on super fast broadband  . tier 2 delivering food and products .

There will still be a grey area. People who cant be trusted to work from home , Jobs that can’t be done by robots. Those people will still have to travel around.

I think STEMO is right. Maybe there isnt a solution .

I've mentioned it before.......we need an advanced teleportation system. :y

Some nerdy boffin will crack it one day.... ::) :)
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Nick W

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #84 on: 30 August 2019, 14:27:38 »


Yes, and that is why we must improve this fantastic method of mass movement of people and freight.  As the population grows, and the climate changes, the need for fast, efficient, affordable, pleasant to use, railways will become ever more important. There will increasingly be "no alternative" for many more people, unless someone invents a working teletransporter. ;D ;)


It's not a fantastic method, but one that within some very big limitations still has some value.


It's not well suited to modern logistics, as using it massively increases the amount of handling required and that's the expensive and inefficient part of moving stuff.


It is suited to instances when the load can get on and off by itself, so that's passengers.


Due to the nature of tracks, trains are only really useful when lots of people want to go from one place to another. Which is the definition of commuters.


Britain's cities aren't far apart enough  for there to be a practical or economic case for high speed trains.


Railways are ridiculously expensive to build, maintain and run, which is made worse by their limited use. This means that they are expensive to use unless heavily subsidised.And that is a stupid thing to do, as that money just disappears into a black hole.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #85 on: 30 August 2019, 14:29:30 »

If you want to invest in a relevant transport technology then invest in an ultra high speeds fibre-to-premises as that is our transport future. I work from home my neighbour opposite me is a certified Microsoft support person, who works for a London based company where is is physically there only once or twice a week which is why Boris is pushing this as he did when he was London mayor along with his IT incubators hub which are receiving record oversea investment where the UK attracts much more of this than any other European countries. Computer software, CGI & other related technologies will employ much more people working from home and is going to be an increasingly large percentage of the UK economy. I've been fortunate in picking the right industry st the right time as a digital hardware designer & computer programmer starting my career as the first generation of 8 bit microprocessors were introduced and earn a good live & often an exceptionally good challenging successful one earning multiple average salaries most of the time. I quickly learn't that the future is softare over hardware in terms of capital investment, running costs & profits, which is why I dropped the hardware design.

I do my local grocery shopping at out of town supermarkets & have had no need to visit any local town centre shopping centre for almost 4 years where they are expensive have limited choice compared to online retail. This is why high streets are dying. Although I visit clients normally by train in London many of my meetings these days involve informal & formal phone and video conferencing from my study office. This makes very efficient use of my time, with my long twice daily commute being from my large lounge, across my hall into to my large study office where I have two desks & chairs, so family and visitors can work there as well.

This is the future, is here for many now, including a massive army of gig economy self-employed programmers & artists who get their work through global websites like freelancer.com. I don't want or need an expensive, inefficient commute, clogging up roads & railways and this is the future for many, not only in IT but also other service industries like financial services, insurance etc. A person I do a lot of work for, where I do all his IT, runs a multi-million pound insurance brokerage from home, employing several people remotely who also work from home using a distributed wide-area VOIP phone network. This is the future for many & it is here now. He used to have an office where several people worked but finds it much more efficient to give this up & he is now earning as a result multiples of £100kpa as a result. I've also happy as I'm looked after well as well as his most key contractor.

The future is here now and people linked in the romanticism of the Victorian era are welcome to it as they live their retired life on a combination of victorian romanticism, old high street shopping methods and as Disraeli told us regrets, but this is irrelevant to more & more of the UK workforce.

How many more times..................!! ::) ::)  The railways are not a "Victorian" romantic 'thing', it is a reality for the many members of the younger generation, not like you or me, of the retired generation, who find it a necessity to travel by public transport to be actually productive in offices, warehouses, and factories, let alone to visit relatives who are nowadays often flung far and wide.  They cannot afford a motor car- a "Victorian" concept by the way!! -  or to run it on ever congested roads.  Not everyone can possibly work from home in IT "service" industries if this country is to rise again and actually produce things - or is that your idea of a "yesterday year" concept - no wonder you worry about us becoming a "third World country"!!  ::) ::)
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dave the builder

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #86 on: 30 August 2019, 14:46:25 »

ok , combine Lizzie's national water movement grid and trains to make high speed water trains that float rather than rails with power stations en route for power distribution . gallows at each station (to deal with law breakers)
anything else need solving  :-\  ;D
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #87 on: 30 August 2019, 14:54:21 »

Lizzie and Rods, have you ever thought, regarding transport, that, with the current population growth, there just may not be an answer. At all. Actual physical space is another finite thing and, without colonising the space we need to grow our food and keep our animals, we'll run out of that at some point.
So, we either live on synthetic food, or we evolve a system where people do not need to travel to work. Rods' idea about a superfast broadband system is great for desk jobs, but we also need to cater for people who do not work in that sector. It ain't easy, that's for sure.


Oh yes Steve, I do all the time, and note all the dire warnings about what could happen! :y :y

But, we live in the now, and for the sake of the younger - working!! - generations now and to come we MUST not rule out anything or everything. 2050, when the combustion engine car - an actual "Victorian" concept - is consigned to the final scrap yards, or the museum, and the roads for them are not being built in the same way as the electric, self driving, car will be used in a very different way: for short distances, with long distance travel via public very high speed trains. 

You see I am not the one looking backwards to a so called "romantic Victorian" age, but forward to a space efficient, environmentally friendly, suitable for the non-fossil fuel, socially acceptable situation that belongs to the 2050's and beyond.  For me, it is those who are clinging on for dear life to the personal, fossil fuel, highly expensive in all respects, land grabbing, anti-social, "Victorian" concept.

As for the last highlighted comment. again very true Steve, and that IS what I am driving (excuse the pun) at.  TB, Rod, and others in the so called IT age are ignoring the fact not everyone can possibly work in that field even if they wanted to.  It is a field (destined to the scrap heap for the individual by 2060 (my prediction!) that has so many issues, with hacking, breakdown of hardware, corrupt software, lack of power, and, in many cases, a very unhealthy lifestyle for the mental and physical health of the individual.  Once an IT system breaks down, due to internal or external reasons, like lack of electricity, it is completely useless.  A railway system which is physical track and infrastructure, can still be used, even if it means special measures!

Apart from that, as per my last post, GREAT BRITAIN MUST still be able to manufacture 'things', and far more than we have dipped to now!  Otherwise we are open to hostile aggression, financial and political blackmail, along with mass unemployment as ALL work goes to other countries, and especially the IT element, and Rod fulfils his prophecy of GB becoming a "third World country"!! ::) ::) ;)

We all will then not have to worry about going back in time to a "romantic Victorian era", but we will be back to, at best, Tudor living, or even a new prehistoric age!! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;)
« Last Edit: 30 August 2019, 15:00:54 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #88 on: 30 August 2019, 14:55:15 »

ok , combine Lizzie's national water movement grid and trains to make high speed water trains that float rather than rails with power stations en route for power distribution . gallows at each station (to deal with law breakers)
anything else need solving  :-\  ;D

Oh, we have only just started Dave! :o :o ;D ;D ;)
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Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
« Reply #89 on: 30 August 2019, 14:58:54 »

ok , combine Lizzie's national water movement grid and trains to make high speed water trains that float rather than rails with power stations en route for power distribution . gallows at each station (to deal with law breakers)
anything else need solving  :-\  ;D

Oh, we have only just started Dave! :o :o ;D ;D ;)
post the list and i'll get it all sorted  :y
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