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Author Topic: Worn Front Tires inner Side  (Read 1574 times)

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polilara

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Worn Front Tires inner Side
« on: 21 October 2019, 18:12:59 »

So, renewed everything in front last December, made alignment acc. to recommendations, now found this bad situ. Strange, have to recheck soon but difficult to understand what happened?
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #1 on: 21 October 2019, 18:14:23 »

Camber is incorrect
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #2 on: 21 October 2019, 18:29:28 »

Camber is incorrect
Or the horizontal bolt was tightened in the air ;)
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #3 on: 21 October 2019, 18:42:37 »

Horizontal bolt was bolted in floor, good guide here, thanks DC. Camber was set to value which is somewhere in my mails here, but certainly wrong now, I try to find it and go to same garage to check. I was standing there last Dec so it was set to what I told.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #4 on: 21 October 2019, 18:44:28 »

 ;) good to rule it out.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #5 on: 21 October 2019, 18:58:11 »

Yes!
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polilara

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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #6 on: 21 October 2019, 19:07:13 »

https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=144115.msg1887670#msg1887670
we had some discussion here, not sure what is + and what is - ? Could that be the case?
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #7 on: 21 October 2019, 19:22:32 »

https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=144115.msg1887670#msg1887670
we had some discussion here, not sure what is + and what is - ? Could that be the case?
It requires negative camber ;) basically stand facing the wheel and push the top towards the engine.

It is possible that either this was set with the wheels off the ground with no allowance made for the loaded position or that the struts settled before the bolts were tightened fully :-\
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #8 on: 22 October 2019, 03:57:52 »

Ideally the tank is supposed to be full and the front loaded on both sides with 75kg, as well as the wheels being on the ground.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #9 on: 27 October 2019, 11:09:10 »

Camber is incorrect
Or the horizontal bolt was tightened in the air ;)
Either way, the tyre wear is caused by camber.  How the camber is out needs further investigation.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #10 on: 27 October 2019, 11:09:56 »

Ideally the tank is supposed to be full and the front loaded on both sides with 75kg, as well as the wheels being on the ground.
Tank makes little different to front (but does rear), and weights aren't needed when using WIM specs :)
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #11 on: 28 October 2019, 14:48:01 »

Camber is incorrect
Or the horizontal bolt was tightened in the air ;)
Either way, the tyre wear is caused by camber.  How the camber is out needs further investigation.
I thought that toe out will cause that too, I get it measured it next week Nov. 6 -19 in local GM-dealer, four wheel alignment. Will report then. I was there down today and tried to bend wishbones to see whether those rubber bushes were bad. They were not when bending with tyre lever. I bought a year ago (10 000 km) this https://www.ebay.com/itm/SUSPENSION-CONTROL-ARMS-WISHBONE-KIT-LOWER-FRONT-OPEL-VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-/381141643466, ATP. Idler have perhaps 10mm play in up down direction, just passed MOT last week so everything should be OK. When I turn left and brake the car turns left, when I turn right and brake car turns right, like those rubbers were soft etc. When I just look the front wheels I can "see" toe out, strange but let's see what the meters show.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #12 on: 28 October 2019, 17:17:13 »

No, toe will not cause shoulder wear. It may introduce accelerated wear across the tyre, but only camber can cause shoulder wear.

The reasons for incorrect camber can be worn/broken suspension/steering, a dramatic change of weight over that axle, or poor setup.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #13 on: 28 October 2019, 18:03:55 »

OK, then Camber is not correct anymore (perhaps those four bolts in bottom end of shocks were not tight enough) and that will make track rods "too short" as I think I see the toe out. Let's see next week, drive Astra now...
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #14 on: 05 November 2019, 10:38:38 »

You will need to get the 4 wheel alignment done. Your tracking is out.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #15 on: 05 November 2019, 17:07:12 »

Sure, I go 8:00 tomorrow to local GM dealer and hear what happened, I guess that those two bolts in bottom part of McPherson struts were not tightened well last Dec when wheels were aligned last time after having renewed everything, what is the tightening torque needed here? New painted shocks against to the smooth metal surface of steering knuckle, then hard driving over the speed bumps, perhaps camber goes to negative direction??
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #16 on: 05 November 2019, 18:32:33 »

You will need to get the 4 wheel alignment done. Your tracking is out.
It needs more than 4 wheel alignment, as the camber is out. It needs a proper geometry check.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #17 on: 06 November 2019, 03:18:02 »

I'll report today...
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #18 on: 06 November 2019, 16:18:44 »

So, unfortunately nothing to report yet, the support bar of my "new" trailer hitch (going below tank) was so big that it prevented one beam from wheel to wheel in rear. So they asked me to take the bar away or visit another garage close to them having different kind of device. I'll visit them soon.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #19 on: 07 November 2019, 17:38:02 »

So, unfortunately nothing to report yet, the support bar of my "new" trailer hitch (going below tank) was so big that it prevented one beam from wheel to wheel in rear. So they asked me to take the bar away or visit another garage close to them having different kind of device. I'll visit them soon.
Sounds like they can only do 4 wheel aligment. You need a full geometry check.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #20 on: 07 November 2019, 17:40:13 »

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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #21 on: 08 November 2019, 16:04:18 »

Nice device, yes full geometry will be checked in my next place. Remember back camber not adjustable wihout tricks. Do anybody know the tightening torque of those bottom McPherson bolts keeping camber in its position.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #22 on: 09 November 2019, 00:09:52 »

Nice device, yes full geometry will be checked in my next place. Remember back camber not adjustable wihout tricks. Do anybody know the tightening torque of those bottom McPherson bolts keeping camber in its position.

I think it's a 3 stage process.
Torque to 90Nm
Then angle tighten through 45°.
Then angle tighten through a further 15°.
Supposedly for new bolts and nuts.

I think the Sachs / Boge dampers (shocks) come with new bolts and nuts. As I recall the bolts and nuts are the flanged type. Else I imagine you need suitable heavy washers.

Normally they give you a before and after schematic printout of the resting camber, caster and toe-in for the front. Camber and toe-in and net thrust angle for the rear. Did you get one when you originally got the car aligned. Might help if you can compare with now to see what exactly went out of alignment.
« Last Edit: 09 November 2019, 00:26:55 by Enceladus »
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polilara

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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #23 on: 10 November 2019, 11:10:36 »

Nice device, yes full geometry will be checked in my next place. Remember back camber not adjustable wihout tricks. Do anybody know the tightening torque of those bottom McPherson bolts keeping camber in its position.

I think it's a 3 stage process.
Torque to 90Nm
Then angle tighten through 45°.
Then angle tighten through a further 15°.

Supposedly for new bolts and nuts.

Normally they give you a before and after schematic printout of the resting camber, caster and toe-in for the front. Camber and toe-in and net thrust angle for the rear. Did you get one when you originally got the car aligned. Might help if you can compare with now to see what exactly went out of alignment.

I think the Sachs / Boge dampers (shocks) come with new bolts and nuts. As I recall the bolts and nuts are the flanged type. Else I imagine you need suitable heavy washers.

OK, pretty tight, I remember the guy just used two spanners when tightened, might bee too loose now. Not very clever construction I think. Bolts&nuts are new and original flanged ones. I got the paper but lost it. Values "after" I reported here, have to find them.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #24 on: 12 November 2019, 10:29:48 »

Camber -1°10'
Toe in 1mm/side total 2mm.

That was done last Dec,  I was standing there, let's see what we found, next week Thursday 21 at 8:00.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #25 on: 21 November 2019, 17:39:19 »

So measured front Camber left side -1°10' right -1°40', didn't change it, toe out something 4-5 mm (forgot the paper to the Garage but get it back soon) now toe in +1mm/side. Stopped four wheel alignment for today as the right rear track rod too badly corroded in thread, it did not move even heated red. Have to take it away and try to repair or change. Is it difficult to take away. Wheel end I know as I removed it several times when changed rear springs but how is the other end? When nut removed is it easy to remove the bolt? I mean does the rubber bushing have inner steel core corroded to bolt during last 20 years or is it just plastic?

Any recommendation for back toe in/out and Camber? And any legal tricks to change rear Camber? If I remember right it was about -2° in both sides (have to check the report when got it).
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #26 on: 21 November 2019, 18:33:04 »

For the rear, the toe is far more important than the camber. So compromise on rear camber, but absolutely, utterly get the thrust angle to 0'00 +/- 0'00

Front camber, 1'40 is too far out IMHO, and will cause accelerated shoulder wear.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #27 on: 21 November 2019, 18:37:33 »

Even with that front toe, it will still be pretty horrible to drive, and will kill the inner edge in no time.

Always best to use a true specialist and give then defined numbers... In the green simply isn't good enough. You aren't asking for 'ish' but rather spot on.

A Porsche specialist or similar would be a better bet than a GM dealer or tyre specialist, but depends on what you have available locally.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #28 on: 22 November 2019, 13:47:14 »

I'm struggling to understand what has happened.
A year ago you reported that the front camber had been set at -1°10' each side.
Now the right side has shifted to -1°40'.
A year ago you reported that the front toe-in had been set to -1mm each side. (Which member aaronjb calculated to be -0°8' or -0°16' total toe-in.)
Now both sides have shifted to massive toe-out, +4<>5mm which is +0°35'<>0°42' on 16" wheels.

So too much play somewhere or it's not being measured correctly.

Are the wheels actually supporting all the weight of the car when it's being measured?
Are the front seats loaded and the tank full?

Are the horizontal bushes in the lower suspension arms (wishbones) good?
Are the big bolts in the wishbones fully tightened?
And was that done with the weight of the car on the wheels?

Do you have standard or poly bushes. AIUI the poly ones allow you to run close to zero toe-in. The standard bushes will toe out at speed so can't be run near zero toe.
Is the ride height of the car OK? IE. no sag in the springs, or lowering springs fitted?
Perhaps one or more of the ball joints are too worn.
« Last Edit: 22 November 2019, 13:51:07 by Enceladus »
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #29 on: 22 November 2019, 15:25:39 »

Wrong re poly bush toe...

That is only the case with a modified front wishbone rear/vertical bush... The fitting of which has proven to induce catastrophic failure of the wishbone.

Front poly bushes have zero impact on geometry settings.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #30 on: 23 November 2019, 10:59:38 »

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SUSPENSION-CONTROL-ARMS-WISHBONE-KIT-LOWER-FRONT-OPEL-VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-/381141643466

So thanks for all comments, I need help as I really have a trouble now. Above is what I bought, installed in a right way, also springs shocks, all possible new in front. The garage was very good which I last visited, all four wheels were in a "bearing table". The car was terrible to drive before I was there and it is still terrible to drive. When going straight ok but when I brake the car moves strongly left and at the same time the steering wheel turns right. Idler has play 20mm up and down but I cannot find any other clearance anywhere. Skould I take wishbones away and check the bushes in table. I cannot find any play there, please help what to study! Just passed MOT so brakes etc are ok.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #31 on: 23 November 2019, 11:15:46 »

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SUSPENSION-CONTROL-ARMS-WISHBONE-KIT-LOWER-FRONT-OPEL-VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-/381141643466

So thanks for all comments, I need help as I really have a trouble now. Above is what I bought, installed in a right way, also springs shocks, all possible new in front. The garage was very good which I last visited, all four wheels were in a "bearing table". The car was terrible to drive before I was there and it is still terrible to drive. When going straight ok but when I brake the car moves strongly left and at the same time the steering wheel turns right. Idler has play 20mm up and down but I cannot find any other clearance anywhere. Skould I take wishbones away and check the bushes in table. I cannot find any play there, please help what to study! Just passed MOT so brakes etc are ok.
I wonder strongly advise against ATP.  My personal experiences of them is that "DHL lost it", which according to my contact at DHL means "ATP never even ordered the courier" when I gave them the details.  Twice now :(

Also, their front suspension kits are crap.  Really crap.


If your wishbones are GM, and structurally fine, refurb them instead.  Replace forward bush with a poly (but buy real Molyslip Copaslip, as powerflex supplied grease is rubbish, and they will squeak after a bit), and rearward bush (if it needs changing) with genuine GM ones.  Only replace the balljoint if it needs it.  Tart the wishabone up with paint if required.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #32 on: 23 November 2019, 13:14:27 »

This.^
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #33 on: 23 November 2019, 16:08:54 »

If you have 20mm play in the idler nothing else matters...  :-X
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #34 on: 23 November 2019, 18:14:07 »

Absolutely .!
20mm play here is a huge amount and will need rectyfiing first. Cannot see how this was missed at the mot test !
The usual pull one way ,steering wheel flick opposite is normally bushes but this arm needs sorting first ?
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #35 on: 24 November 2019, 02:23:26 »

20mm? Which end of the idler arm? The bushed end that connects to the pivot bolted to the chassis? Is it like this?

Or is it the end with the tapered bore. In which case did you replace the centre tie-rod? Check the ball joints at each end for excess free play, that connect to the idler arm and the Pitman drop arm on the drivers side.

ATP's delivery issues aside a number of members have reported success with that kit. So don't write it off yet. I think you need to sort out the idler first.

If your idler is foobar and if you have access to the wherewithal, then you might as well try pressing in a new bush into your existing arm. You won't be able to get a new genuine one. Bush easily available from Germany.

The ZF catalogue lists the bush as:
BOGE = 87-020-A
LEMFÖRDER = 11602 03

Original idler arms were made by ZF and likely they stopped making them in 2003 having manufactured a run-out quantity for aftermarket sale. Any genuine original parts directly from GM or indirectly as ZF LEMFÖRDER probably ran out about seven yours ago. So now all after market arms are equally rubbish, no matter whose name is on the box. Maybe they all use the same bush. Maybe that's the ZF bush, who knows?
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #36 on: 24 November 2019, 09:24:41 »

ATP's delivery issues aside a number of members have reported success with that kit. So don't write it off yet. I think you need to sort out the idler first.
Have you actually seen those ATP wishbones?  They are down there with the crappiest aftermarket (OK, maybe not firstline shite that ECP like to pedal).

Given that the single most expensive "part" is the setting up afterwards, you'd have to be a bit odd to want to replace then annually.

Hence, refurbing the original GMs is always best. The polys are expensive initially at £45, but last for life. Rear GM bushes last about 3-5yrs, even with my driving style, and last set I bought cost about £28 a pair, delivered same day - might have been ex vat though.

Rear bushes can be done in a vice normally, unless really seized, in which case you cut it out, and use a vice to pop new one in.  Slightly more effort than using a press, but not many of us have a press.

Fronts will need cutting out (or a press), but once polybushed, only ever need regreasing when you next replace the rearward bush in a few years.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #37 on: 24 November 2019, 09:26:42 »

I have to agree with Enceladus about idlers though. All are shite.

Hence, I still have my GM one on that has the tiniest amount of play. I'd normally replace, but current replacements will be worse in 3 months use.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #38 on: 24 November 2019, 10:30:38 »

Jaime, just noticed your new name eBoy 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I take it there’s no problem refurbing an aftermarket lower arm? Or should an original GM arm be used? I can’t see there being an issue with the metal but u might have noticed something I haven’t?
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #39 on: 24 November 2019, 12:32:27 »

I should like to say a word in defence of ATP wishbones. I have fitted them to all of my Omegas over many years, and have never had cause to complain. Wishbones, drop links and track rods all last about 25,000 miles, by which the car has usually died of something else.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #40 on: 24 November 2019, 12:51:31 »

Likewise, their kit costs a third of a single GM wishbone.

This is a mixed blessing as it makes them really good value for money, ideal for getting a car working cheaply, but clearly they won't last the 80-120k miles that the originals do. Not sure why this comes as a surprise...  ???

Even if you DIY and use the ATP kit, it costs around a grand to overall the suspension on the Omega, including set up. Which is why people cut corners and then wonder why nothing changes with regard to tyre wear etc.

I tended to use the ATP kit on all of my cars, but did poly bush them before fitting.
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Enceladus

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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #41 on: 24 November 2019, 14:07:18 »

In this case polilara says this about the wishbones, "cannot find any play there".
However he tells us that there is 20mm in the idler arm.
The tracking width has altered (toed out) by 6mm or 7mm (-2mm to +5mm).
The offside camber has increased by 30'.

So there is no firm evidence that the wishbone bushes have failed.
More likely the toe wasn't set accurately due to the idler.
Rolled off the ramp and it was immediate toed out.
Maybe the offside strut bolts were never tightened or the camber was never actually adjusted.
Or maybe it was never measured properly, with the wheels loaded.

I think the way to proceed is to fix the idler and/or the centre tie rod.
Check the wishbone bushes again.
Get the rear adjuster freed or replaced, anyway get the rear alignment correct(able).
I still believe that both front seats should be loaded. Three 25kg bags of sand on each and the tank full when measuring.
Then align the front and make sure everything is tight.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #42 on: 24 November 2019, 14:41:13 »

Jaime, just noticed your new name eBoy 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I take it there’s no problem refurbing an aftermarket lower arm? Or should an original GM arm be used? I can’t see there being an issue with the metal but u might have noticed something I haven’t?
That's the Pikey Pensioner messing with me profile  >:(

With non GM, no guarantee that the bushes are identically sized, and most are poor quality anyway, with shocking balljoints and poor welding.  Hence I stuck with what I had.  But if a decent brand like genuine Lemforder (not the "Lemforder" stuff ECP used to supply in clear packaging a few years back), I see no reason why you couldn't use them.

But you'd be radio rental to refurb an ATP/Firstline/Delphi etc Omega wishbone. You cant put a shine on a turd.
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Eboy.com

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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #43 on: 24 November 2019, 14:43:07 »

In this case polilara says this about the wishbones, "cannot find any play there".
However he tells us that there is 20mm in the idler arm.
The tracking width has altered (toed out) by 6mm or 7mm (-2mm to +5mm).
The offside camber has increased by 30'.

So there is no firm evidence that the wishbone bushes have failed.
More likely the toe wasn't set accurately due to the idler.
Rolled off the ramp and it was immediate toed out.
Maybe the offside strut bolts were never tightened or the camber was never actually adjusted.
Or maybe it was never measured properly, with the wheels loaded.

I think the way to proceed is to fix the idler and/or the centre tie rod.
Check the wishbone bushes again.
Get the rear adjuster freed or replaced, anyway get the rear alignment correct(able).
I still believe that both front seats should be loaded. Three 25kg bags of sand on each and the tank full when measuring.
Then align the front and make sure everything is tight.
Toe does not cause shoulder wear, which was the original complaint.  Inner shoulder wear can only ever be caused by camber.  Outer shoulder wear is also camber, but can be inflicted by driving like a loon around MK roundabouts.
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Eboy.com

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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #44 on: 24 November 2019, 14:47:07 »

Likewise, their kit costs a third of a single GM wishbone.

This is a mixed blessing as it makes them really good value for money, ideal for getting a car working cheaply, but clearly they won't last the 80-120k miles that the originals do. Not sure why this comes as a surprise...  ???

Even if you DIY and use the ATP kit, it costs around a grand to overall the suspension on the Omega, including set up. Which is why people cut corners and then wonder why nothing changes with regard to tyre wear etc.

I tended to use the ATP kit on all of my cars, but did poly bush them before fitting.
Refurbing the Omega suspension - though I argue that not all components need to be done, only those that have failed - what is the single most expensive bit?

The setup.

Hence, why would anyone want to do that annually?


Once the polys are bought, a GM wishbone refurb is about £14 per side (probably plus VAT, mind). Far cheaper than ATP's poor quality stuff.

So why fit a pretty poor, vastly inferior product that's a lot more expensive.  I am utter bemused  :o
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Nick W

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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #45 on: 24 November 2019, 14:50:18 »



I take it there’s no problem refurbing an aftermarket lower arm? Or should an original GM arm be used? I can’t see there being an issue with the metal but u might have noticed something I haven’t?


no problem whatsoever.


I did 3 full frontend rebuilds in about six months, and wouldn't say there's any practical difference between cheap ATP wishbones and the wornout GM ones I removed.


The bushes might be another matter, but I would always use polys on the front, and spend the extra few quid on genuine GM when the rears need replacing. One thing to consider is that they're a press fit in a sheetmetal housing, so I'd be wary about replacing them more than a couple of times. If the rear bushes and balljoints(which only tend to fail if the boot is somehow damaged) need replacing at the same time, then the cost/time ratio would make me fit new wishbones. New wishbones have riveted balljoints, which are more secure than bolted replacements. Yes, I have seen problems with bolted ones, although they weren't on an Omega
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #46 on: 24 November 2019, 16:01:01 »

Likewise, their kit costs a third of a single GM wishbone.

This is a mixed blessing as it makes them really good value for money, ideal for getting a car working cheaply, but clearly they won't last the 80-120k miles that the originals do. Not sure why this comes as a surprise...  ???

Even if you DIY and use the ATP kit, it costs around a grand to overall the suspension on the Omega, including set up. Which is why people cut corners and then wonder why nothing changes with regard to tyre wear etc.

I tended to use the ATP kit on all of my cars, but did poly bush them before fitting.
Refurbing the Omega suspension - though I argue that not all components need to be done, only those that have failed - what is the single most expensive bit?

The setup.

Hence, why would anyone want to do that annually?


Once the polys are bought, a GM wishbone refurb is about £14 per side (probably plus VAT, mind). Far cheaper than ATP's poor quality stuff.

So why fit a pretty poor, vastly inferior product that's a lot more expensive.  I am utter bemused  :o
Polys are initially £50, plus the GM bits, which not everyone can get at trade ::)

Given most peoples' usage and the fact that most of the people who suffer this, they have often bought a car with worn out components, and only find out about the finer points of Omega wishbones when they have a pair of Delphi/Firstline wishbones thrown on by someone who doesn't know/care how they fit them.

Granted the ATP stuff doesn't last anything like the factory stuff, not that so called OE parts do either :-X, but where else can you get both wishbones/track rods/drop links (incidentally most of the parts that affect front geometry) for less than a night out?

You are correct that the alignment is expensive, so if you're on a budget, you're surely better off replacing as many of the wear parts as possible before getting it set up... ???

We will have to agree to disagree ;)
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #47 on: 24 November 2019, 16:25:47 »

I do have to disagree, as its not just false economy, its simply more expensive from the outset - all crap wishbones, including ATP, need to be polyed to last the warranty period.

And fitting the other junk ATP supply in their kits is monumentally daft, as all you are doing is sinking further into basically scrapping your car in the next few months.

I gets under my skin when I see, even complete strangers, waste their money, particularly in many cases when its people who cant afford to.

That's why I am so passionate on this one.


But I accept you and I will never agree on this specific point, and I suspect can't actually accept the other one's reasoning on it.  So I (very reluctantly, as it erks to see members waste money) agree to vehemently disagree.  Obviously, that's before we remember that ATP are a bunch of lying arseholes, but that's a separate debate altogether ;)
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #48 on: 24 November 2019, 16:42:08 »

That last sentence we do agree on ;)
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #49 on: 25 November 2019, 16:55:04 »

So, thanks for all comments

1. Car was good to drive before I started to repair it last December. Reason for repair was one leaking original front shock. When I was there I realized that original wishbones were badly corroded as we use salt here in winter for deicing and the rest you know, I renewed everything. It was good to drive in the beginning. After last Summer it started to behave in a strange way, when braking car moved left and steering wheel turned right.

2. Idler has play down when I hang on the central bar with my body and play up when I push it strongly up when I am standing on the floor. In frame side it is solid. Movement only in central bar side when strongly loaded. I believe that this is not the root cause for my problem.

3. I am stupid. I tried to find wishbone bushing play by arrangement shown in pic by turning wheel left and right against the steering lock. With this I cannot get the load to wishbone bushing which I strongly believe is the case now. Could you advice how to really test the play? Would like to start from left and take the wishbone away if needed. So you said Poly or GM to front and GM to back. Could you pass a link for both of them, it is just work which I can do inside. I remember I just have to take the bolt of lower ball joint away and then two bolts of wishbone and that's it. No need to remove anything else.

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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #50 on: 25 November 2019, 17:18:04 »

1. Front bush failure due to incorrect fitting process.

2. Think what you like, that much movement WILL affect geometry.

3. Pry bar between wishbone and subframe so that pry bar is 90 degrees to the bolt... ie slot the pry bar UP behind the front bush. Rear bush shows clear visual wear/damage. Clearly visible with the wheel off ;)

Tunnie has a set of poly bushes* for sale... about a third of the price of new ones. Ebay or Larkspeed for them otherwise. Nearly £100 if you do the anti roll bar ones at the same time. Rear bush is readily available. Get heavy duty if you get a choice, but Febi or Lemforder probably easier to get than genuine.

*Poly bushes for the front bush completely eliminates the need for having the car on the ground when you tighten the bolts... a massive plus for torqueing the bolts :y
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #51 on: 26 November 2019, 16:31:35 »

Thanks DG for comments,

Front bushing tightened in floor thanks to good tips in Maintenance Section.
I agree that idler movement affects the geometry and have to be repaired or changed it is really clear but I am still afraid that my big case here is bushing.

I read from Maintenance section something about firm/harsh driving with polys, are they noisy, too.

What is the number for rear bushing heavy duty version if needed? I found 9156605, is that "normal"?
For front I found 90576775 is heavy duty available?

I do not want to assemble anymore parts not recommended here (to avoid the third round down there). I check the play of bushings soon and take them away. If I am too lazy to change bushing how about these https://www.autonvaraosat24.fi/lemforder/1265653
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #52 on: 26 November 2019, 16:36:51 »

I cannot recommend strongly enough that you fit front poly bushes.

Comments of noise and harsh ride a scaremongering by people with limited imagination and should be ignored.

Also, if you aren't prepared to change the idler, we cannot help you.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #53 on: 26 November 2019, 18:17:12 »

Front polys just make it like what a new GM poly is like. Any reports of firmness are simply because the old ones an owner removed were shagged.

Standard GM bushes for the rearward front wishbone ones, if using GM wishbones. 3rd party wishbones may take different sizes, and TBH I wouldn't bother refurbing anything other than GM or genuine Lemforder.


Polys at the rear of the car is less clear, as there are issues in doing that.  Mine is poly'd, but if I did it again, I would use rubber ones I think.
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polilara

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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #54 on: 29 November 2019, 11:45:22 »

I am about to order those Lemförder wishbones, any good link where to order and also get real Lemförder wishbones? The ATP ones I will repair with GM Bushing or other. Finnish Opel page reported that some coloured BMW bushes are even better? I also found this lemförder 1160203 for my idler.
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Re: Worn Front Tires inner Side
« Reply #55 on: 29 November 2019, 12:10:58 »

Front polys just make it like what a new GM poly is like. Any reports of firmness are simply because the old ones an owner removed were shagged.

Standard GM bushes for the rearward front wishbone ones, if using GM wishbones. 3rd party wishbones may take different sizes, and TBH I wouldn't bother refurbing anything other than GM or genuine Lemforder.


Polys at the rear of the car is less clear, as there are issues in doing that.  Mine is poly'd, but if I did it again, I would use rubber ones I think.

Having gone through the process of refurbing GM wishbones with polybushes etc. I completely agree with the above. No harshness or noisiness. It just drives like a new car would. Do this then have the geometry set properly and it will make the car a real pleasure to drive.
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