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Author Topic: Oohh dear... not starting!  (Read 1341 times)

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Diamond Black Geezer

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Oohh dear... not starting!
« on: 30 October 2019, 08:21:16 »

First thing this morning nice and chilly she wouldn't start. Turning over fast like a good 'un, starter and battery clearly very good. Immediately think...

1 Crank sensor
2 Fuel pump
3 Fuel pump fuse / Relay


1 Been good as gold not started 'dickey' at any point
2 Car at 20 litres, if fuel pump was on its way out would have started with a struggle, but eventually fired, getting progressively worse as fuel level drops.
3 Tried swapping fuse 19 with headlamp - car started!  ;D

But... Headlamps also worked  ??? Could be a fracture in the fuse, I hear sometimes old fuses can have a crack and can be dickey, but for now happy to assume it's perfectly fine.

I'm thinking crank sensor for now - don't want to send my car out with Miss DBG (who needs it for work reliably ) until I've solved the problem "the car starts" yes, but only through what I can assume pure luck. Equally I don't want to change it 'just because' - then she doesn't start again in a few days I've cured nothing. Am I missing anything else obvious?
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VXL V6

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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #1 on: 30 October 2019, 08:28:04 »

Unlikely but might be worth checking the fuel pump cover plate on top of the tank hasn't started to rust through one of the pipes.

Does sound more of an electrical issue though.
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #2 on: 30 October 2019, 09:00:37 »

Ta mate, yeah fuel tank top plate is a good nick one I fitted it myself not too long ago, shiny black paint.

I'm changing the sensor when it warms up a a bit and go from there. Found a test for CS also with a multimeter so will try that on the old one.  :y
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #3 on: 30 October 2019, 09:39:28 »

Don't ignore the fuel pump...
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #4 on: 30 October 2019, 11:44:47 »

Got the CS out and discovered a potential issue...





'iron filings'  :o first pic was on the crank sensor itself, the second I stuck a magnet inside the hole in the block switled it around to find this. Ive doen it a couple more times and nothing else. My thought is this -

could these deposits be enough to throw the sensor off enough to make it 'dicky'?? I'd say surely, but I've never come across this before. Coincidentally enough I've had the sump pan off a matter of weeks ago and there were no such deposits in there, I checked when cleaning it as a matter of course..


EDIT: Just remembered did the oil and filters/oil cooler/plugs/NS cat same time sump was off - decided to pop the CS off to make access easier, definitely wasn't any filings on it then.  :(
« Last Edit: 30 October 2019, 11:55:39 by Diamond Black Geezer »
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VXL V6

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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #5 on: 30 October 2019, 12:55:19 »

My daily had filings in the oil filter cap (paper filter version) a couple of oil changes ago... None in subsequent oil changes so stopped worrying, at over 226K I will just keep driving it... Be pleased if it gets to next summer!
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #6 on: 30 October 2019, 13:06:56 »

Ta. I suppose point 1 is "should I worry theres metal shavings in my engine?" which I suppose yes, it's something which does happen (I did discover some small fragments 1 or 2mm in size of some alloy in the oil pickup strainer when I had the sump off which I've since put out of my mind/not losing sleep over as 'just one of those things'

Point 2 is of course - will this throw the crank sensor off, or give it occasional, sufficient cause to be a bit dicky form time to time. Can anyone say for certain one way or another?  :-\

Currently doing the test posted on here with a multimeter. Will let people know results shortly.  :y
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #7 on: 30 October 2019, 13:21:11 »

SO...  :D

Repeating this test http://www.vauxhallownersnetwork.co.uk/showthread.php?39425-Vectra-How-to-check-a-V6-crank-sensor (seen here https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=77062.msg1033216#msg1033216)

we read ohm resistance over terminals 1 & 2 and
Volts over terminals 1 & 2 with ferrous object (handy lump of steel)

old sensor
500 ohms
1.50 to 1.99 volts

brand new sensor sealed in GM bag sensor I dug out of the boot
518 ohms
1.31 to 1.90 volts

The volts spike only for a second before dropping off, so it's as much about the refresh rate of the multimeter/how quick you can read the screen as anything. As we can see the readings seem to be damn near identical.

Recommended levels seem to be...
400-800ohms
No voltage suggests duff sensor.

Personally I'd say that's proven the old sensor is working perfectly fine, pointing to the iron filings throwing readings off a touch. Maybe recent oil change has dislodged something, and the metal has found its way to the only magnetic thing in the block?

Anyone want to say why I'm wrong?  :D ;D
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #8 on: 30 October 2019, 14:42:58 »

Manual or auto ?
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #9 on: 30 October 2019, 16:19:51 »

 I've got a new early CS.
 

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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #10 on: 30 October 2019, 18:11:52 »

400-800ohms
No voltage suggests duff sensor.

Personally I'd say that's proven the old sensor is working perfectly fine, pointing to the iron filings throwing readings off a touch. Maybe recent oil change has dislodged something, and the metal has found its way to the only magnetic thing in the block?

Anyone want to say why I'm wrong?  :D ;D
Resistance depends on the sensor. There are three possibilities.
The two earliest types are 550Ω. One has a squared ends on the connector. One has oval and is made by Siemens.

The most common sensor is marked Bosch 0 261 210 131. And is 850Ω. It's also oval ends on the connector.

Does your sensor have a square sided connector as posted in the photo by biggriffin above?
I suggest you post up details of any logos, GM / Bosch / Siemens etc visible on the head of your sensor. And also any part numbers.




« Last Edit: 30 October 2019, 18:29:08 by Enceladus »
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #11 on: 30 October 2019, 19:31:33 »

400-800ohms
No voltage suggests duff sensor.

Personally I'd say that's proven the old sensor is working perfectly fine, pointing to the iron filings throwing readings off a touch. Maybe recent oil change has dislodged something, and the metal has found its way to the only magnetic thing in the block?

Anyone want to say why I'm wrong?  :D ;D
Resistance depends on the sensor. There are three possibilities.
The two earliest types are 550Ω. One has a squared ends on the connector. One has oval and is made by Siemens.

The most common sensor is marked Bosch 0 261 210 131. And is 850Ω. It's also oval ends on the connector.

Does your sensor have a square sided connector as posted in the photo by biggriffin above?
I suggest you post up details of any logos, GM / Bosch / Siemens etc visible on the head of your sensor. And also any part numbers.


No just buy a new one, from a dealer if it's oval plug, or from me if it's square plug, problem solved. Isn't worth faffing around with C's they either work or not, soon as they play up change it
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #12 on: 30 October 2019, 23:48:21 »

Right, apologies for the delay in replying, Ihad to go to work  ::) they don't like to pay me unless I turn up for some reason!  ;)

So...
Manual or auto ?
Auto - if you were wondering was the car out of Park/the switch under the lever wasn't working as it should, no all cool  :y

Biggriffin and Enceladus-
My part number is 90492061 (both the one fitted to the car and the spare I have) will gladly post a pic tomorrow just to clarify. It's the Siemens one.  :)

Also thanks for the more accurate resistance readings on these sensors.  :y

Looking like biggriffin's sensor no good for me, but thanks v much for the kind offer  :y

So are we saying the iron shavings on the end isn't/cannot be causing the issue?


I happily have till Monday now to do some other jobs (coolant hose swap, idler, coppergrease brakes before winter bites, groaning suspension) so will be able to monitor how car runs/if starts scientifically day by day.
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #13 on: 31 October 2019, 00:38:32 »

The engine must be an X25XE?

The sensor is triggered by the ferrous teeth on the reluctor wheel behind the hole. Might have 58 teeth and a 2 tooth gap. There is a small gap between the sensor and the wheel teeth. You don't want want iron (magnetic) shards on the sensor. Or between the reluctor teeth. I don't know where your metal shards came from but I hope it's not from the reluctor teeth. If the wheel has interfered with the sensor then I would expect to see damage to the tip of the sensor.

Providing that the teeth on the wheel are undamaged and there are no shards on or other damage to the sensor head, then it's probably all right.

Perhaps the sensor was misaligned. The sensor is supposed to be square on to the reluctor teeth. And snug in it's bore. Did you perhaps damage or displace the o-ring when you removed and re-instated the sensor? Or is there any crud in the sensor bore or the seal land? Or has the o-ring gone hard?

Clean the bore for the sensor as best you can. And make sure that the sensor is pushed fully home before you tighten the bolt.
« Last Edit: 31 October 2019, 00:46:38 by Enceladus »
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #14 on: 31 October 2019, 19:25:08 »

Cheers for the detailed info there  :) Yes, X25XE  :y

Yes, as you say if there's been any reluctor-sensor contact then the plastic sensor would surely be chewed etc. I agree. It's definitely 'good as new' visually, cleaned it up and all's fine. I cleaned up inside the bore also stuck a small magnet on a stick in there, found a little more 'filings' but after another couple of prods n pokes no more has come out.

Everything else you suggest seems 'fine' o rings, misaligned sensor etc. No visible issues.

Today I fitted the hoses I got off biggriffin, so once coolant is added tomorrow and she's turned over to get rid of airlocks I may pop the sensor out again, just to see if any more of these filings/shavings have appeared.
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