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[Mister Rog]

Went to but a new (used) car for SWMBO yesterday. Evans Halshaw, cardiff

SFO for old car, admittedly very old with a lot of issues, so no surprises there

But, staggered by how much time and effort went into trying to sell us stuff we really didn't want. Didn't even understand what most of it was. Some kind of extended warranty, asset protection insurance, AA cover, some kind of bodywork coating thing. All of it would have been over £1k. Declined everything, so a senior manager came out to try and do better than the young lad. Dug heels in and no to everything. But over 4 hours to buy a car!

I'm happy with the car and end result, but it's hard work constantly saying "no".

[Viral_Jim]

The answer to that is pretty simple, there's precious little margin in used cars anymore, all the profit for the stealer is in the outrageous finance costs, paint protection, bullsh!t insurance products etc etc.

[Andy B]

I had all that when I bought my R Class ... GAP insurance ... wheel & tyre insurance .... minor parking ding insurance etc & had to sign to say that I'd read & understood what I'd signed etc
But when I got the ML I just said I didn't want any of the extra ins and that was that, the salesman just accepted it. 

[Mister Rog]

The answer to that is pretty simple, there's precious little margin in used cars anymore, all the profit for the stealer is in the outrageous finance costs, paint protection, bullsh!t insurance products etc etc.

Never quite thought of it that way. I assumed that the quite attractive sticker price was profitable. Anyway, Mrs now has quite a nice a 2012 V70. It's D3 which I thought would be underpowered, but really not too bad. Happy all round.

[Viral_Jim]

Nice!

Friend of mine has an S60 D2, which is a real sad sack. You have to work it so hard to get any progress. Glad the D3 is better.

[Mister Rog]

Nice!

Friend of mine has an S60 D2, which is a real sad sack. You have to work it so hard to get any progress. Glad the D3 is better.

For some reason there are two versions of 2.0 D3, one at 135 BHP and another at 161. This is the 161. Noticeably different to my '06 XC70 at 185, but adequate, and economical.

Hang on, this is an Omega forum . . . . 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Nice!

Friend of mine has an S60 D2, which is a real sad sack. You have to work it so hard to get any progress. Glad the D3 is better.

For some reason there are two versions of 2.0 D3, one at 135 BHP and another at 161. This is the 161. Noticeably different to my '06 XC70 at 185, but adequate, and economical.

Hang on, this is an Omega forum . . . . 

Well there's plenty of chat about Range Rovers, Jaguars and even Astras! 

So I think that there's room for a little Ovlov corner. 

[STEMO]

Nice!

Friend of mine has an S60 D2, which is a real sad sack. You have to work it so hard to get any progress. Glad the D3 is better.

For some reason there are two versions of 2.0 D3, one at 135 BHP and another at 161. This is the 161. Noticeably different to my '06 XC70 at 185, but adequate, and economical.

Hang on, this is an Omega forum . . . . 

Well there's plenty of chat about Range Rovers, Jaguars and even Astras! 

So I think that there's room for a little Ovlov corner. 

What do you mean 'even astras'? At least they are Vauxhalls.

[Doctor Gollum]

Nice!

Friend of mine has an S60 D2, which is a real sad sack. You have to work it so hard to get any progress. Glad the D3 is better.

The D2 is the previous 1.6 110 bhp D3. They shuffled the numbers up and realigned them with their marine range several years ago 

[Doctor Gollum]

The answer to that is pretty simple, there's precious little margin in cars. all the profit for the stealer is in the outrageous finance costs, paint protection, bullsh!t insurance products etc etc.

Fixed.

Always been that way... Jerry Lundergaard (William H Macy) in Fargo has this very conversation with a rather pissed off punter.

https://youtu.be/B2LLB9CGfLs

GM and Ford only make vehicles in order to create demand for GMAC and Ford Motor Credit. Manufacturer finance pays their bills and dealer add ons and finance kickbacks pay the dealers bills and the non manufacturer finance products keep the banks open.

Cheap brands are only cheaper on the forecourt because they cost less to make. 

[Nick W]

I'm happy with the car and end result, but it's hard work constantly saying "no".

so say "goodbye" instead.

[STEMO]

I posted up about a few years ago. As soon as I make it clear that there will be no 'add ons', the dealer loses interest and couldn't give a toss whether I buy the car or not.

[biggriffin]

Nice!

Friend of mine has an S60 D2, which is a real sad sack. You have to work it so hard to get any progress. Glad the D3 is better.

For some reason there are two versions of 2.0 D3, one at 135 BHP and another at 161. This is the 161. Noticeably different to my '06 XC70 at 185, but adequate, and economical.

Hang on, this is an Omega forum . . . . 

Well there's plenty of chat about Range Rovers, Jaguars and even Astras! 

So I think that there's room for a little Ovlov corner. 

 You've forgotten to mention the best car in the WORLD the  pussy magnet that is the 1.3 Marina...   
 Some of us have Posh Vectras (Saab)

[Mister Rog]

The answer to that is pretty simple, there's precious little margin in cars. all the profit for the stealer is in the outrageous finance costs, paint protection, bullsh!t insurance products etc etc.

Fixed.

Always been that way... Jerry Lundergaard (William H Macy) in Fargo has this very conversation with a rather pissed off punter.

https://youtu.be/B2LLB9CGfLs

Substitute Welsh accents, and that clip is remarkably close. 



 

[Mister Rog]

I'm happy with the car and end result, but it's hard work constantly saying "no".

so say "goodbye" instead.

Tempted, but I did actually want the car and it was a 60 mile drive to get there. Advertised price £6,028 ( I have no idea where the £28 came from!) Eventually paid £6,076 total. Still happy.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Looking at an E63 estate recently.

When I told the dealer I did not want or require PCP or HP I was told I would have to pay the full sticker price.

Never done that. Never will.

[STEMO]

Looking at an E63 estate recently.

When I told the dealer I did not want or require PCP or HP I was told I would have to pay the full sticker price.

Never done that. Never will.

Cheeky bastards. 'We'll only reduce the sticker price if you let us put more on than we take off'. Shove it.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Looking at an E63 estate recently.

When I told the dealer I did not want or require PCP or HP I was told I would have to pay the full sticker price.

Never done that. Never will.

Cheeky bastards. 'We'll only reduce the sticker price if you let us put more on than we take off'. Shove it.

Yep......they are in the business of selling finance not cars.

The HP they offered was a ridiculous 10.9%. Nationwide will lend me money at 2.9%.

[ronnyd]

Looking at an E63 estate recently.

When I told the dealer I did not want or require PCP or HP I was told I would have to pay the full sticker price.

Never done that. Never will.

Cheeky bastards. 'We'll only reduce the sticker price if you let us put more on than we take off'. Shove it.

Yep......they are in the business of selling finance not cars.

The HP they offered was a ridiculous 10.9%. Nationwide will lend me money at 2.9%.

But is it APR?

[Viral_Jim]

11% is daylight robbery when the underlying cost of borrowing is less than 2% you were right to walk away that's for sure.

[Shackeng]

The answer to that is pretty simple, there's precious little margin in cars. all the profit for the stealer is in the outrageous finance costs, paint protection, bullsh!t insurance products etc etc.

Fixed.

Always been that way... Jerry Lundergaard (William H Macy) in Fargo has this very conversation with a rather pissed off punter.

https://youtu.be/B2LLB9CGfLs

GM and Ford only make vehicles in order to create demand for GMAC and Ford Motor Credit. Manufacturer finance pays their bills and dealer add ons and finance kickbacks pay the dealers bills and the non manufacturer finance products keep the banks open.

Cheap brands are only cheaper on the forecourt because they cost less to make. 

A terrific film, and I love that clip!

[Doctor Gollum]

11% is daylight robbery when the underlying cost of borrowing is less than 2% you were right to walk away that's for sure.

It doesn't legally have an APR because it's not officially credit , but your E by Golf is probably at least 10%...

[Viral_Jim]

11% is daylight robbery when the underlying cost of borrowing is less than 2% you were right to walk away that's for sure.

It doesn't legally have an APR because it's not officially credit , but your E by Golf is probably at least 10%...

I don't recall saying it should have an APR  I was comparing the likely cost to borrow the money incurred by the finance company (probably around 2%) Vs what they (effectively) charge the customer. The difference between the two is the margin they're scalping. This is a gap that has become significantly larger over the last decade or so.

Re. The e-golf, I neither know not care what the interest rate is that's being incurred, in the same way I don't care about the cost of maintenance, tyres or insurance.

What matters to me is the net amount taken out of my pay packet  (multiplied by 36) plus the electricity to power it Vs the total running cost of buying/running/disposing of an owned alternative over 3years.

[STEMO]

11% is daylight robbery when the underlying cost of borrowing is less than 2% you were right to walk away that's for sure.

It doesn't legally have an APR because it's not officially credit , but your E by Golf is probably at least 10%...

I don't recall saying it should have an APR  I was comparing the likely cost to borrow the money incurred by the finance company (probably around 2%) Vs what they (effectively) charge the customer. The difference between the two is the margin they're scalping. This is a gap that has become significantly larger over the last decade or so.

Re. The e-golf, I neither know not care what the interest rate is that's being incurred, in the same way I don't care about the cost of maintenance, tyres or insurance.

What matters to me is the net amount taken out of my pay packet  (multiplied by 36) plus the electricity to power it Vs the total running cost of buying/running/disposing of an owned alternative over 3years.

After driving the e golf for a while, would you consider buying one for private use, Jimmy?

[Viral_Jim]

After driving the e golf for a while, would you consider buying one for private use, Jimmy?

To date I am 23,000 miles and 9 months into ownership, so I use the car a LOT. I find that journeys in it that are over 200 miles in a day do require some level of pre-planning which a lot of people won't like. I rapid charge mine regularly (typically 2-3 times a week) and I did 325 miles in it yesterday and rapid charged it on 4 separate occasions - though never to 100%. Most people will tell you that this type of use will kill the battery, but so far, if there has been any battery degradation, its at a level where I can't detect it. I'm not saying they are wrong, but I can only relay my experiences. Like diesel cars, consumption goes up in the winter months, but so far the impact doesn't seem massive to me. Yesterday I drove in temperatures that were between freezing and 6 degrees C and I was getting about 133 miles to a 'tankfull' my summer range was about 141 miles over the exact same journey.

To actually answer the question, personally yes, I would. Without any hesitation as a second car and with some serious thought as an only car.

I've looked on the golf as a cheap experiment as to whether I could personally live with an ev before deciding whether to go all in and buy. So far the only thing stopping me buying at the moment is the way the UK company car taxes are set up for EVs, this makes it much better for me to lease a car through work than to buy (the golf costs me just under £325 pcm on a fully maintained 25,000 miles p.a. lease). But if that were to change for whatever reason, I would definitely buy an EV with my own money.

[STEMO]

Very informative. Thanks, Jimmy.

[ronnyd]

After driving the e golf for a while, would you consider buying one for private use, Jimmy?

To date I am 23,000 miles and 9 months into ownership, so I use the car a LOT. I find that journeys in it that are over 200 miles in a day do require some level of pre-planning which a lot of people won't like. I rapid charge mine regularly (typically 2-3 times a week) and I did 325 miles in it yesterday and rapid charged it on 4 separate occasions - though never to 100%. Most people will tell you that this type of use will kill the battery, but so far, if there has been any battery degradation, its at a level where I can't detect it. I'm not saying they are wrong, but I can only relay my experiences. Like diesel cars, consumption goes up in the winter months, but so far the impact doesn't seem massive to me. Yesterday I drove in temperatures that were between freezing and 6 degrees C and I was getting about 133 miles to a 'tankfull' my summer range was about 141 miles over the exact same journey.

To actually answer the question, personally yes, I would. Without any hesitation as a second car and with some serious thought as an only car.

I've looked on the golf as a cheap experiment as to whether I could personally live with an ev before deciding whether to go all in and buy. So far the only thing stopping me buying at the moment is the way the UK company car taxes are set up for EVs, this makes it much better for me to lease a car through work than to buy (the golf costs me just under £325 pcm on a fully maintained 25,000 miles p.a. lease). But if that were to change for whatever reason, I would definitely buy an EV with my own money.

Does that mean you can only do another 2k in the next 3 months? Do you also have any penalties if you exceed the 25k p.a.?

[Viral_Jim]

Apologies, slight error on my part, I actually got the car mid-March 2019, so its more like 10-10.5 months, but yes it does, technically.

However the lease is for 3yrs / 75k and the way I saw work shaping up when I took on the car, I felt I would do more in years 1 and 2 than in 3, just because of the direction work/my team was going in and I'd rather be slightly under and pay a bit of a penalty when I hand it back than over-estimate and pay upfront for miles I don't end up using, I think the penalty is around 7.5p/mile, or £75 per thousand miles. But I am pretty confident I won't be much over.

It also doesn't affect the calculation as to whether the car is cost effective. Running it costs around 2.5p/mile in electricity, so adding that to the penalty gives about 10-11p/mile running cost. A diesel car that does 50mpg average costs about 11.5p per mile in diesel alone, let alone maintenance tyres etc. So the milk float is still cheaper. 

[aaronjb]

Kind of the same way my Ranger worked out - it rocketed up in miles (far, far over what the lease was for) when I moved up here and was commuting 4x a week, but it was handed back with less miles than the lease agreement expected because originally I was doing far less miles.

Granted I still handed it back early so I could get the Skoda because I didn't predict 4x/week becoming once every two weeks.. should have kept it, still miss it!

[omegod]

I got an email through work offering the Audi Etron on lease for £249 per month all in, insurance, tyres etc with no benefit in kind implications apparently...…….I still wouldn't

[New POD]

Last year we needed to swap my wife's low mileage Juke, for something automatic with an electric handbrake.

Found a low mileage Astra 1.6, 11 reg in a Vauxhall dealer. Same price as the Juke was worth as a PX. (Privately probably worth a little more)

We had no money to mess about with. it should have been a straight swap.

Starting offer from the main Vauxhall dealer put us needing £2K.

It wasn't until my wife put her coat on and started leaving that they started taking it seriously.
Ended up paying for the 6 months tax, which was fine because a few weeks later we got 6 months tax back on the Juke.

Plus they then prepped it with 4 new tyres and new front discs and pads and an oil change and full MOT.

[TheBoy]

To actually answer the question, personally yes, I would. Without any hesitation as a second car and with some serious thought as an only car.

Ah, but would you buy one 3yrs old, 2nd hand that had been fast charged 600 times?

And I can assure you that the Korean manufacturers of the batteries do tell the car manufacturer that regular fast charging is detrimental to the batteries, even with the best battery management systems in place (currently Tesla's).  The car manufacturers chose to to state this in their marketing

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

We have four electric car charging points at work, so out of curiosity a had a look at the cheapest available on ebay a while ago.
There was one within budget and it was only 5 miles from me. When I read the listing the reason it was so cheap became clear.
Someone had nicked the batteries from it !

[Viral_Jim]

To actually answer the question, personally yes, I would. Without any hesitation as a second car and with some serious thought as an only car.

Ah, but would you buy one 3yrs old, 2nd hand that had been fast charged 600 times?

Interesting question, and one I've been seriously pondering as the prospect of a new job (and a 3x weekly 240mile commute) beckons).

The question is somewhat moot when it comes to Tesla, mostly because 600 charges is about 120-160,000 miles and I wouldn't buy a 3yr old car with that kind of mileage. In something like my golf, a half day test drive (one rapid charge and 80-100miles driving and a chance to access obd2) would tell me all I needed to know about the state of the battery,

To answer a slightly different question: would I buy one that's 3yo with an unknown charge history, the answer is yes. And that's based on data I've seen submitted on the ev equivalent of fuely/honest John that seems to give a pretty clear picture of what battery degredation looks like in practice.

In my case I modelled out a 4yr usage of a used Tesla S 90D against various other cars and at 35,000 miles p.a. (my usage case), even if the battery and drive unit packed up after 4yrs 1 day, and I had to sell it as salvage, it would cost me no more than running (say) a 4yr old 3L diesel e-class/XF, and it has way more punch, and better technology than either.

[aaronjb]

Interesting question, and one I've been seriously pondering as the prospect of a new job (and a 3x weekly 240mile commute) beckons).

Jesus Jimmy, are you trying to off yourself? There are easier ways! If you're still living in the tin tent, I suggest dragging it closer to work

[Viral_Jim]

Jesus Jimmy, are you trying to off yourself? There are easier ways! If you're still living in the tin tent, I suggest dragging it closer to work

To mis-quote Mr Tebbit - if you want a job, get on your bike and look for it, and keep looking 'til you find it. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Jesus Jimmy, are you trying to off yourself? There are easier ways! If you're still living in the tin tent, I suggest dragging it closer to work

To mis-quote Mr Tebbit - if you want a job, get on your bike and look for it, and keep looking 'til you find it. 

Never did like 'Nasty Norm' and neither apparently did the IRA.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

A wonderful man. When I was young and stoopit I detested him. Over the last 20 years or so, I have grown to admire him more and more.
He gave up the chance to be PM to retire from public life and care for his wife, which is the mark of a real caring selfless human.
I wish we had his like in front line politics these days.

[Viral_Jim]

I can honestly say I know nothing about him other than (the correct version of) the quote above.

I would go and find out, but my brain seems to be operating a one in one out system for information at the moment and I'd hate to lose something really useful.   

[Doctor Gollum]

My first taxi job in my own car was to drive him to a speaking appointment in Epping. Thoroughly decent chap.

[Mister Rog]

My first taxi job in my own car was to drive him to a speaking appointment in Epping. Thoroughly decent chap.

Spitting Image had a lot to answer for . . . . 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qTaERA9yoA

[Shackeng]

A wonderful man. When I was young and stoopit I detested him. Over the last 20 years or so, I have grown to admire him more and more.
He gave up the chance to be PM to retire from public life and care for his wife, which is the mark of a real caring selfless human.
I wish we had his like in front line politics these days.

Agreed, he also flew Meteors in the RAF, then 707’s with BOAC. Sadly I never flew with him. 

[BazaJT]

Wait while 31/12/2034 and they'll be giving them away