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Author Topic: engine kucfed?  (Read 1817 times)

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05omegav6

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engine kucfed?
« on: 17 March 2011, 00:23:33 »

With a view to resolving my misfire, I've changed all the plugs.

Number 6 is missing its' nose. The insulation is chipped and the core electrode is missing. :o >:(

Will this make it in to the exhaust without doing too much (ie any) damage? :-/ Yeah right. >:(

I appreciate that it probably won't go through the cat, but what of the valves? :-/

Well there's a really nasty rattle from number 6, won't idle, it's hunting between 250 and 900 rpm, and sounds like it is running on 3/4 cylinders. Suspect its' days are numbered.

Fiddlesticksbockloks grrrrr. >:(
« Last Edit: 17 March 2011, 02:40:05 by 05omegav6 »
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feeutfo

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #1 on: 17 March 2011, 07:46:53 »

Codes? Air leak? History, when did this start?
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #2 on: 17 March 2011, 08:15:08 »

Morning,

Started yesterday am, nasty misfire lumpy/noisy. had injector code for number 5, and several misfire codes. swapped number 5 and number 1 injectors over and now no injectors codes. Also changed all 6 plugs. number 6was missing the entire central core and some of the ceramic from the tip.

engine runs/revs but very lumpy. no air leaks. codes read just now are:

0420, 0430 ::)

0300
0305
0300
0301
0303
0305
0306
0304

Just about to pull inlet assembly apart to try and see what damage is visible in number 6. failing that it'll be off with the head, not that i've the time to do it,but need the car on the road. ::) :-/

ta
al. :y
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feeutfo

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #3 on: 17 March 2011, 08:35:50 »

Is the injector plug to manifold secure? Can't see why a possible compression fault and missfire on 6 would cause missfire issues on every cylinder except 2? Hunting/missing rough running, multiple misfires on all cylinders except 6 would have me looking at common issues to all cylinders.


 If issues on 6 remain after that's fixed then I'd worry about removing heads or fitting another lump.
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #4 on: 17 March 2011, 09:08:36 »

had inlet manifold off, 6 was very wet fuel/oil not water. cleaned up put back together.
still ran like a bag of bolts, lots of rattling from 6. >:(

stripped it off again, 6 very wet as before. just about to turn over by hand, wonder if its dropped a valve, hence the state of the plug :-/

If your interested, pm me your number and i'll text you a snap of the plug. :y
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Fuse 19

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #5 on: 17 March 2011, 09:27:01 »

Smells like a MAF fault to me, any live data readings?
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #6 on: 17 March 2011, 09:46:43 »

sorry mark, no live data.

plug 6 is missing its central core and outer electrodes both damaged. had to go somewhere. :-/

engine turns over by hand but is quite tight. :-/
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #7 on: 17 March 2011, 09:50:52 »

p.s would a maf issue causea plug to fail?

also, can the car be run with the maf disconnected? would be quite useful if it can from an elimination point of view. :-/
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Kevin Wood

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #8 on: 17 March 2011, 09:58:12 »

Quote
p.s would a maf issue causea plug to fail?

also, can the car be run with the maf disconnected? would be quite useful if it can from an elimination point of view. :-/

Car will run for diagnostic purposes without the MAF.

If pot no. 6 has been seriously flooded it might immediately foul its' new plug on restart, so the misfire remains.

I would remove all the plugs and dry them, disconnect the crank sensor and turn it over on the starter a few times to try to dry the bores a little. While you're at it do a compression test just for peace of mind.

I can't see the MAF having destroyed the plug unless it was running seriously lean. More likely the last mechanic to change the plugs couldn't be arsed to change no.6 IMHO. ::)

Kevin
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Kevin Wood

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #9 on: 17 March 2011, 10:00:11 »

Oh, and if the bores have been washed dry of oil, the compression may seem low. A squirt of oil in each bore will see it return if that's the case. We're really looking for valve damage which won't improve with oil.
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #10 on: 17 March 2011, 10:21:28 »

last 3 plug changes (every 20k) been done by me. I might be lazy enough to drive everywhere, but I'm not THAT lazy. previous plug changes all done by TVP at Biscester.

There is enough back pressure to blow the combustion gasses back up the inlet manifold, and also past all 3 seals between the head and the plenum. Inlet valves appear to have no damage on their stems, or the back of their heads. Top of piston looks quite crappy,lots of black sticky gunk on it.

I guess the blow back would be enough to seriously upset the rest of the combustion cycle. :-/

Not promising anyway. :'(

How much to fit a replacement head, assuming the piston is not holed?
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shyboy

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #11 on: 17 March 2011, 10:21:54 »

Could the broken plug debris still be in there?
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #12 on: 17 March 2011, 10:31:55 »

stupidly i've driven about 50 miles since yesterday morning, hence my not being too optimistic about the whole situation. :-[ :-/
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Kevin Wood

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #13 on: 17 March 2011, 11:29:51 »

How do you know there's blow back? Any evidence?

I reckon it's probably still just a misfiring, flooded cylinder but a compression check will tell if there's a serious problem. 

Kevin
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #14 on: 17 March 2011, 11:46:03 »

I cleaned the plenum inside and out at the cambelt meet, and again last week, trying to solve a slight fume issue. now there is alot of wet/oily mess inside the plenum above the inlet duct to number 6. it is also blowing past the seals above and below the inlet base plate, again only on number 6.
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feeutfo

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #15 on: 17 March 2011, 11:59:37 »

Quote
I cleaned the plenum inside and out at the cambelt meet, and again last week, trying to solve a slight fume issue. now there is alot of wet/oily mess inside the plenum above the inlet duct to number 6. it is also blowing past the seals above and below the inlet base plate, again only on number 6.
Blowing past the seals in the plastic base plate.... Blowing past ? To where? Outside the inlet? That is your air leak if so?
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #16 on: 17 March 2011, 12:06:01 »

pressure IN the inlet tract is forcing enough oil/fuel mix OUT past the seals on the base plate to make the seals wet. can text picture of near side head. surely a regular air leak on the inlet side would draw air into the manifold, seeing as the inlet manifold is relatively low pressure. :-/
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feeutfo

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #17 on: 17 March 2011, 12:10:59 »

Quote
pressure IN the inlet tract is forcing enough oil/fuel mix OUT past the seals on the base plate to make the seals wet. can text picture of near side head. surely a regular air leak on the inlet side would draw air into the manifold, seeing as the inlet manifold is relatively low pressure. :-/
If it's been sucking in air long enough would it run lean, and break the plug? Inlet manifold negative pressure is impressive.

Post the pic here...  :y Hang on I'll pm you.
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feeutfo

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #18 on: 17 March 2011, 14:59:56 »

Al's pics.






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Lazydocker

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #19 on: 17 March 2011, 16:20:29 »

Looking at that I'd say that the seal on the inlet isn't sound and that caused the cylinder to lean out to the point it destroyed the plug, then started blowing back up when the cylinder was flooded...

Of course, I'm no expert and I'm sure MDTM will be along soon
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #20 on: 17 March 2011, 17:10:50 »

Thanks for that Chris :y

The inlet branch was  last disturbed at 100k,(now 162k), when I did the cam covers. Today is the first time that the inlet base has been removed since the engine was built.

Quote
Looking at that I'd say that the seal on the inlet isn't sound and that caused the cylinder to lean out to the point it destroyed the plug, then started blowing back up when the cylinder was flooded...
I think this might have happened the other way round :-/
It has been suggested that the plug may have failed as a result of being over tightened. Quite common on vx serviced Corsas apparently. The debris then damaging an exhaust valve, in turn leading to the blow back :-/

Either way net result is not good. :-/
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Lazydocker

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #21 on: 17 March 2011, 17:15:04 »

Quote
Thanks for that Chris :y

The inlet branch was  last disturbed at 100k,(now 162k), when I did the cam covers. Today is the first time that the inlet base has been removed since the engine was built.

Quote
Looking at that I'd say that the seal on the inlet isn't sound and that caused the cylinder to lean out to the point it destroyed the plug, then started blowing back up when the cylinder was flooded...
I think this might have happened the other way round :-/
It has been suggested that the plug may have failed as a result of being over tightened. Quite common on vx serviced Corsas apparently. The debris then damaging an exhaust valve, in turn leading to the blow back :-/

Either way net result is not good. :-/

Only way to know for certain about valve damage is the compression test :y :y
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #22 on: 17 March 2011, 19:56:03 »

what figure should I be looking for with a compression test? ie what's normal/acceptable and how big does the difference need to be to signify a problem? :-/

Ta, Al. :y
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Lazydocker

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #23 on: 17 March 2011, 20:00:41 »

Quote
what figure should I be looking for with a compression test? ie what's normal/acceptable and how big does the difference need to be to signify a problem? :-/

Ta, Al. :y

First thing to look for is a dramatic drop on any cylinders from the others ;) ;)
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Kevin Wood

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #24 on: 17 March 2011, 20:26:31 »

Quote
what figure should I be looking for with a compression test? ie what's normal/acceptable and how big does the difference need to be to signify a problem? :-/

Ta, Al. :y

From memory probably 12-14 bar but, as said, we're looking for a significant drop on that cylinder alone, so do them all and compare.

Don't forget a teaspoon of oil in each bore if they are initially low.

Testing with the plenum removed is no problem provided that you prevent the fuel pump running(!) and keep anything loose away from the intakes.

Remove the 2 purple relays at the back of the ECU box to disable the fuel pump and ECU electrics.

Kevin
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #25 on: 17 March 2011, 22:26:37 »

For reference: MAF unplugged, idle is reasonably steady at 900ish, Emissions light steady.

MAF plugged in, idle is approx 800rpm, and hunting very slightly, Emissions light flashing.

Strong smell of fumes, and number 6 very rattly in both cases.
« Last Edit: 17 March 2011, 22:30:24 by 05omegav6 »
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Fuse 19

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #26 on: 18 March 2011, 08:15:38 »

Quote
Thanks for that Chris :y

The inlet branch was  last disturbed at 100k,(now 162k), when I did the cam covers. Today is the first time that the inlet base has been removed since the engine was built.

Quote
Looking at that I'd say that the seal on the inlet isn't sound and that caused the cylinder to lean out to the point it destroyed the plug, then started blowing back up when the cylinder was flooded...
I think this might have happened the other way round :-/
It has been suggested that the plug may have failed as a result of being over tightened. Quite common on vx serviced Corsas apparently. The debris then damaging an exhaust valve, in turn leading to the blow back :-/

Either way net result is not good. :-/

Not sure how that can cause significant blow back as yes, there is the possibility of the fresh fuel air mix coming into contact with hot exhaust gases via a leaky valve but, that would cause a hell of a pop in the inlet manifold every other stroke.

I should add that Mick Dundees car had gobbled some plug electrodes at some point and although there was scarring on the head, the valves were not affected.

Compression test is needed here I think.

The MAF results are a concern, when they get bad they do some very odd things including popping, over fueling the lot.
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #27 on: 19 March 2011, 11:00:57 »

Right, just done compression test. :-/ results below, in bar:

1 10.2
2 10
3 11 (with oil, 8 before)
4 10
5 10
6 4 9.2 (dry)

Battery is flat, so been using a booster pack which died as I got to number 6, (should have started with that one ::)), so not convinced about that result.

All 6 plugs were wet. Engine has only been run for a minute or so since Thursday.

Will post second result for 6 once the booster is re charged.

Al. :y

« Last Edit: 19 March 2011, 21:29:15 by 05omegav6 »
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #28 on: 19 March 2011, 11:20:39 »

Quote
The MAF results are a concern, when they get bad they do some very odd things including popping, over fueling the lot.

Also having read Oti's thread, are v6 MAFs interchangable?
Thinking 2nd hand as a short term test. :-/
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feeutfo

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #29 on: 19 March 2011, 13:45:45 »

Quote
Quote
The MAF results are a concern, when they get bad they do some very odd things including popping, over fueling the lot.

Also having read Oti's thread, are v6 MAFs interchangable?
Thinking 2nd hand as a short term test. :-/
2.6 and 3.2 maf's are the same, search the Bosch part no. On the maf itself. Also used on transit vans among others. Pre face lift are differant.
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #30 on: 19 March 2011, 21:27:46 »

Quote
Posted by: chrisgixer      Posted on: Today at 13:45
taxi al wrote Today at 11:20:
Quote:
The MAF results are a concern, when they get bad they do some very odd things including popping, over fueling the lot.


Also having read Oti's thread, are v6 MAFs interchangable?
Thinking 2nd hand as a short term test.

2.6 and 3.2 maf's are the same, search the Bosch part no. On the maf itself. Also used on transit vans among others. Pre face lift are differant.

Ok, that makes life a bit easier. Are 2.6/3.2 coil packs also interchangable?

Reason for asking is that number 6 is showing a pressure of 9.2 bar (dry). Borderline, but within 1 bar of average.

Quote
The MAF results are a concern, when they get bad they do some very odd things including popping, over fueling the lot.


I'm wondering if this might be the way forward?
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feeutfo

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #32 on: 20 March 2011, 02:30:13 »

9bar is enough IMO.

Has the air leak at the bottom of the inlet wedge been rectified?
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05omegav6

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Re: engine kucfed?
« Reply #33 on: 20 March 2011, 08:28:08 »

Quote
Yep. Same.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-OPEL-VAUXHALL-2-6-3-2-2001-2005-BOSCH-COIL-PACK-SET-/1...

1 set ordered.

Car back together, still a bit tappety. I've had it running up to temp, then taken it out for a drive.

Still hunting a bit, need to replace inlet seals, and managed to snap the secondary connector at the non return valve on the vacuum line between the plenum and the brake servo. >:( So that is temporarily taped up.

Did two identical trips around the block, one with the MAF sensor plugged in, the other unplugged. Ran/pulled better under load plugged in.  :-/  pulled like a train, nice and smooth after 3000rpm when given a bootfull, But building speed slowly, it was still missing.

Gave it a bootfull with the MAF disconnected and it was suddenly really sluggish and set the EML flashing almost instantly. Let it idle, and with the MAF plugged back in, the light soon went steady again.

Codes are still the same as before, so nothing new there :-/.

Going in on Monday for the front end repair, so I'l have three days to gather bits ready for when I get it back. :y

p.s. 8 days and 2 hours before its' fate is sealed. :-X                                                                                                                                                                                             
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