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[abodah]

Hello all,
Happy Valentine's day.
My car is omega facelift 3.0 automatic. I bought it about 2 months ago. The heater was working OK.
About a month ago, the outside temperature was low (about -12) and I had to go some place, turned on the car, and the heater, but there was no heat coming from the vents. The problem is still present and now I can hear the fans are working much more time than before but the temperature is still under control.
Now I suspect the previous owner had filled the car with water instead of coolant, and the engine was frozen that day, and there was a damage to the water pump.
The car has no HBV because it is fitted with LPG system and I guess the previous owner removed the HBV when installing the LPG system (Vaporizer).
The Blend doors are working.
The car has no vacuum problems.
I have tested two things:
- I revved it in neutral to 3000 rpm for a while, and the heating is much more improved during the revving.
- I removed the return pipe (in picture attached) to the reservoir and there was no flow at all during idle, and a small flow during revving.
Does that sounds like water pump? if not, what else could it be?
Thank you all
Regards
Note1 : The pic is not mine.
Note2 : I have an "O P C O M" if that helps.

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[Broomies Mate]

Certainly could be the waterpump, but could also be a blockage (anywhere in the coolant system).

You could try disconnecting one of the Heater Matrix hoses and briefly running the engine to see if there is water pumping.  Even if only briefly, don't use LPG because if your system isn't getting coolant, you'll be in trouble (not that it would run on LPG when cold, anyway).

[Kevin Wood]

The pipe you highlighted is not the return from the heater matrix. It's the bleed pipe from the top of the radiator (or was originally). Heater return should be to the stainless steel pipe that runs along from the rear of the engine to the bottom radiator hose.

I would say that, if the engine is not showing signs of overheating, the pump is probably OK. If coolant changes have been neglected, I'd say it would be worth thoroughly flushing the heater matrix with a hose, in both directions, and restoring a decent mix of antifreeze before looking any further. Also, check the LPG plumbing is sensible. Maybe this modification means there's too little flow through the matrix now?

[abodah]

Thanks to Broomies and Kevin.
I know that the pipe I highlighted is not a heater matrix return pipe, I was thinking it is a return pipe from the engine to the reservoir and that it should have flow in it even in idle? am I wrong?
Regarding the blockage, the car was fine before the snowy day, no heating problems, no fans coming on most of the time. The problems happened after that cold day. May that be a blockage after all?
Anyway, I found that a water pump is not expensive, so I ordered a new one and a big bottle of coolant.
Next weekend I will try to disconnect the matrix hose to see the water pumping and flush it if it was too little, then refill with pure water and try it for some time, if the problem got solved I will refill with coolant mix, if not, I will have to replace the water pump.

[Broomies Mate]

There shouldn't be any 'flow' from the return pipe.  It's just a shortcut to the expansion bottle for air.

If this definitely co-insides with the freezing temperature, then you are probably correct with your initial diagnosis.

[Kevin Wood]

Thanks to Broomies and Kevin.
I know that the pipe I highlighted is not a heater matrix return pipe, I was thinking it is a return pipe from the engine to the reservoir and that it should have flow in it even in idle? am I wrong?
Regarding the blockage, the car was fine before the snowy day, no heating problems, no fans coming on most of the time. The problems happened after that cold day. May that be a blockage after all?
Anyway, I found that a water pump is not expensive, so I ordered a new one and a big bottle of coolant.
Next weekend I will try to disconnect the matrix hose to see the water pumping and flush it if it was too little, then refill with pure water and try it for some time, if the problem got solved I will refill with coolant mix, if not, I will have to replace the water pump.

If you have a water pump then you might as well change it when you put the decent coolant mix in, as you'll have to drain it all again if that doesn't help. In addition, removing the water pump is the only way to properly drain the engine block, so it will allow you to do a complete coolant change.

You will only see a dribble from that return hose, and only then when the thermostat is fully open. It's not really a reliable indicator of anything, to be honest.

[abodah]

Hello again,
No luck so far.

- I removed the heater matrix pipe, and turned on the engine for 2 seconds, the flow is very good and the pump is working.
- I removed the other pipe, and flushed the matrix with garden hose, I also flushed the radiator and the engine coolant circuit, put everything back without changing the water pump, and filled it with coolant mix.
- As I said before, I watched the blend doors arms moving from outside the heater box, but I didn't open the heater box to see from inside yet.
- I disconnected the vacuum pipe to the brake servo, turned on the car with gas pedal depressed, and that made no change to the heater temperature ( to rule out any vacuum effects).

Symptoms now are:
- The vents are blowing "almost hot" air sometimes, lukewarm air sometimes, and colder air sometimes, before the flush the air was ice cold.
- Both matrix pipes from inside the car is getting very hot, before the flush one was getting hot and the other was not.
- When it blows warm, the central vents is much warmer than the left and right vents, the rear vents is ice cold most of the time (it got warm only once).
- When I put the circulation on, drive the car, and rev it, the circulation turns off during the revving.

Notes:
- The outside temp sensor is giving me the actual temp on the screen, but I guess there is another one for the climate control, because when I diagnosed it with "O P C O M" the temp was 8 degrees Celsius higher for the outside.
- The inside temp sensor for the cc is also false reading, it reads 28 degrees, but it is much colder (I guess 12-16 degrees).
- The vents temp sensor for the cc are also false reading with higher than actual readings for all 4 vents.

Question:
- Aren't the cc supposed to ignore all the sensors readings when on "HI"?

Any help or suggestion is much appreciated.

[Kevin Wood]

- When I put the circulation on, drive the car, and rev it, the circulation turns off during the revving.

This might indicate that the non-return valve in the heating system's vacuum reservoir has failed (located under the scuttle). This might cause some odd symptoms. Not sure it would result in lack of heating.

[abodah]

A very strange thing happened... 
As I hooked it with diagnose kit, and found that the outside and inside temp readings wasn't right, I put a resistor instead of the outside temp sensor to simulate a -23 degrees Celsius on the Display.. now the center vents is blowing red hot air, left and right blowing hot, and the rears are blowing warm.
I guess that leads to an ECU problem.
After I replace the ECU, if the air temp is not the same for all vents, then I will look for blend flaps problem.
My Question is:  Is there a separate ECU for the Climate Control ? or is it the same Control Unit in the center console?
Regards

[abodah]

also I will check that non return vacuum valve next weekend, thx kevin

[Kevin Wood]

The climate control is all controlled by the panel in the centre console. This calculates the temperatures from analogue readings and controls all the actuators.

Failure of the outside temperature sensor is common, and causes similar symptoms, but the outside temperature display is fed by the same sensor and hence misreads. Since you're seeing bad measurements from all sensors, it could be a faulty climate control panel. Worth swapping it if you can find one for a sensible price.

Note that the inside temperature sensors are all in the climate control ducts, so more reflect the temperatures of the under-dash areas when stopped or the air exiting the vents when the system is running. The facelift doesn't have a sensor that accurately measures the cabin temperature, but your test appears to have pointed to a problem anyway.

[abodah]

I bought a second hand control panel, the problem still persist. And the temp reading is still shifted up as the old one.
I then lost hope, and decided to disassemble the dashboard, and investigate the heating matrix, and to my surprise, it was 80% blocked. I thought that the pipes are connected in series inside the matrix, so a block in one should block the whole thing, but I was mistaken. The Center vents took air from the front of the matrix which was a little hot, the left and right vents took air from the middle of the matrix, which was a little warm, the rear vents took air from the rear of the matrix, which was dead cold. I removed the matrix, cleaned it, and put it back in. And now I have heating again.
Now the heating problem is solved, but I have a bunch of new problems.
1- The drain of the radiator broke when I was trying to close it after a flush, there is no water leak from it, but I want to fix it, should I change the whole radiator or can I change the drain only?
2- There is a leak from behind the engine, as I said the car has no HBV, the leak is intermittent, but a large quantity leaks when it occurs, the water is running near the oil filter down the gearbox from what I can see, could it be the matrix leaking through the evaporator drain tube? or it is something else you think?
3- When removing the dashboard, I broke the ignition switch, I connected an external switch to its leads, and it is working for now, but can I replace it ? or should I bypass the immobilizer and put a Start Stop ignition switch like a modern sports car?
That's it for now.
Thank you all

[abodah]

I solved everything
1- The radiator drain plug is only 4 euros, I ordered one.
2- I bypassed the heater matrix, connected its input and output together, and the leak is gone, so ordered a new heater matrix from a good aftermarket brand, only 16 euros.
3- The ignition switch is also available as new part, only for 9 euros. Also ordered one.
I will use the cutting method to change the matrix, as the dashboard is already in place, but I am going to change the dashboard soon, as it has been damaged during the removal processor.

I have a lot to fix in my car, I'll discuss it later.
Thank you all 

[Delroy47]

Well done to sorting your issues, hope you solve the rest 

[abodah]

Thanks Delroy47.
I couldn't do it without this forum, thank you all especially Kevin.
Regards