Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: 05omegav6 on 10 April 2012, 14:52:34
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If, as is widely believed, the GM LS1/2/3 won't fit, I've a couple of suggestions:
1. Mercedes M113. 4.3 - 5.5 plus supercharger potential. Fits in a C Class, which has a steering box but auto only. About £2000 for a rusty E430 :-\ An older, and therefore cheaper alternative, the M119 4.2 - 5.0, as found in the W140 S Class, but also fitted in the W 124 E Class, unloved about £1000 :y 280+ bhp.
2a. BMW M62B35/M62B44 as found in the 5 Series, 96-98, available with a manual box, again £1-2000 for a complete car. 280 bhp.
2b. BMW M60B35/M60B40 as found in the earlier 7 Series and 5 Series, 92-96. sub £1000. 275 bhp
2c. BMW M62TUB44, 5 Series etc, from 98. Canbus, so perhaps not as straightforward :-\ 280+bhp
2d. BMW S62B5, from the M5. Most expensive choice from this lot. 350+ bhp
There you have it :y
My money would be on the Merc lump as the cars they were fitted to have steering box set ups, so packaging might be easier :-\ then again, it wouldn't be the first time that someone dropped a BMW lump in an Omega, would it ::)
Off down the shops to stock up on popcorn...
P.S. Chris, I did say you might not like the solution :-\
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Thats a lot of hassle for just 70 extra horses in most cases :-\
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Thats a lot of hassle for just 70 extra horses in most cases :-\
Let's put that extra power (and torque) into perspective...
T how much more drivable is your 3.2 compared to your old 2.2 :-\. Thank you and goodnight ;)
The obvious solution to this "problem" is available to buy either 2nd hand or off the shelf, and looks remarkably like the Monaro and VXR8. But there really expensive aren't they? I'll wager that several people here spent the best part of £10k on their Omegas. :-\
If you really want a V8 in your Omega, I have simply suggested a couple of tunable alternatives, that may or may not be suitable. It is a hypothetical exercise, and no more or less practical than trying to squeeze an LS lump in. :y
Basically it boils down to how much people like their Omegas, and how much power they reckon the chassis can handle :y
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Thats a lot of hassle for just 70 extra horses in most cases :-\
Yep but an increase of 70bhp is more than significant and cheapest way to achieve that level of increased power is to fit a different lump! Tuning motors follows the law of diminishing returns - first 10% power increase fairly "cheap", next 5% "exhorbitant cost".
I know from experience from tuning my full race 1293 "S" back in late 60s/early 70's ;)
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I'm surprised the LS engine doesn't fit. I've seen Carltons with V8's. What are the Aussies doing in the Commadore etc?
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In conversations with 2woody, it seems there's more to it than just the engine. What gear box/bell housing/drive train? etc.
BMW v8 lumps are available, but finding one with a manual box will, apparently, be a challenge... for example. Any engine can be made to fit, and married, to any box. But then your into custom bell housings.
The plan would be to fit LS lump, temac t5 box. Bell housing freely available obviously. Then makes sense to fit drive shaft and dif from same, and I believe will fit. Then your into final drive shafts and hubs, which I think 2woody has some combination of omega or Carlton parts in mind. Omega drive train won't cope long term with Ls levels of bhp.
Nobody is suggesting the Ls lump won't fit. It's been done before, we've seen the pics. But the question in my mind is how well it will fit, and how expensive it will be. We're looking at 4k for an Ls lump, plus drive train and box, before we even start. Then there's exhaust manufacture, manifolds will be a mare, and so on.
If I wanted more power from an omega that's the route I'd follow... If I had the money.
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I'm surprised the LS engine doesn't fit. I've seen Carltons with V8's. What are the Aussies doing in the Commadore etc?
Commodore floor is wider than omega. Although its based on same.
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You'd be suprised at what will fit what - fitted a 3.8S Jag lump + g/box into a 105E anglia back in the 60s - fantastic acceleration up to 100mph then no more - never got round to spending time sorting final drive :)
Have to say lots of other parts needed changing/upgrading though - brakes, suspension, half shafts (kept snapping them) etc etc
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You'd be suprised at what will fit what - fitted a 3.8S Jag lump + g/box into a 105E anglia back in the 60s - fantastic acceleration up to 100mph then no more - never got round to spending time sorting final drive :)
Have to say lots of other parts needed changing/upgrading though - brakes, suspension, half shafts (kept snapping them) etc etc
Aeye, although the Ls lump has an alloy block, versus the omega iron. So weight will be similar re suspension. I'd fully expect b4 and sport springs to cope, afaict. The mv6 that was converted to v8 had stock suspension.
Brakes however, would have to be upgraded though. No doubt there. The AP set ups on the commodore are in the region of £1500. Stock comadore have fully floating discs with, I think, 6pot calipers. Not bloody cheap either way.
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:D :D i fffitted a rover 3.5 in a mini inthe 90s alot of work bugger did it go :D :D
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Most of those V8s are OHC or DOHC so wider, taller heads than the pushrod GM lumps. For that reason I'd be surprised if they'd be any more compact. Quite the opposite, I reckon. ;)
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It does amaze me when it's suggested the North Star lump was in the GM Omega prototype. As sassanach posted pictures of one, the North Star lump is enormous.
Lexus v8 is double overhead cam, although comparatively small, Rats still had to remove lumps of chassis to make it fit, and fit a rack.
Logistically it has to be a Chevy v8. Rover doesn't put put enough power to make it worth while.
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I made the suggestions that I did based on the fact that these engines are readily available for alot less than an LS. In the case of the Merc lumps, the W202 C Class is considerably smaller than an Omega :y. Buying a complete car provides you with all the niceties such as suitable brakes/diff and not least wiring. :-\
If you want to go the full monty then the LS is the only way to go, and it stands to reason that if you're set on doing such a conversion, then it will be completely custom, and pricey ::).
A quick rummage on Ebay will produce a handful of 540's at sensible money. Whether the work involved is worth the final outcome is a completely different question... was at least one manual E34 when I last looked :-\ also a 4.4/5.0 V8 will always be smaller than a 6.0/6.2 V8.
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Some ramblings...
If going to that trouble, it would have to be a Chevy lump, and give 400bhp at least.
Although, if going to that trouble, stick the Chevy lump in a better chassis. Is the omega worthy of that engine? Not so sure. A few kit car builders might consider the omega chassis a waist. :-\
... Although comparing omega to vxr8, omega wins hands down on toys...And comfort, except commadore seats are luxurious.
If I had a vxr8 I'd miss the omega toys. If I stick with omega, I'd want that engine. :-\
It's easier to LPG with the omega boot though. Although there will be no room in the engine bay...Swings and roundabouts.
But as always, money decides. Project will have to wait... Or a very cheap oppertunity will have to arise to make it possible.... For me anyway.
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Hence the BMW suggestion :y.
I appreciate what you're saying about the Omega, as a car it punches well above its weight in the details. As a project, if you're going to do it, it may as well be exactly how you want it, but it will cost :-\
Otherwise you might just as well buy an eight year old M5 or E55, but guarantee that it won't be the same :-\
£2000 would buy the basic ingredients, an early E38, and a ropey Omega. Throw in a bit of time and some chin/head scratching and you'll get a working car to develop into a viable proposition. No more or less hassle than the LS, but alot cheaper. If a 3.5 V8 fits/works in a scruffy shed, then the M5 lump should do nicely in a tidy shell. If it doesn't then you've not bankrupted yourself in the process :y
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Hence the BMW suggestion :y.
I appreciate what you're saying about the Omega, as a car it punches well above its weight in the details. As a project, if you're going to do it, it may as well be exactly how you want it, but it will cost :-\
Otherwise you might just as well buy an eight year old M5 or E55, but guarantee that it won't be the same :-\
£2000 would buy the basic ingredients, an early E38, and a ropey Omega. Throw in a bit of time and some chin/head scratching and you'll get a working car to develop into a viable proposition. No more or less hassle than the LS, but alot cheaper. If a 3.5 V8 fits/works in a scruffy shed, then the M5 lump should do nicely in a tidy shell. If it doesn't then you've not bankrupted yourself in the process :y
No! ;)
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Not seen this one before. Looks like genuine GM v8 bits from the prototype at a glance. Lingenfelter(?) bought GM's v8 spares and sold them on. To this guy by the looks. He talks about the subframe mounting the engine off centre, as the prototype pics.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-catera-cimarron-forum/130818-cant-wait.htm
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as it happens, I'll be in a position to take some measurements in the next few days - for the BMW lump at least. Mind you, jumping out of the Holden into a BMW V8-powered car it does seem a bit anaemic.
Whilst the Holden is a great drive and handles very well ( at leaast on a par with a BMW ), getting ionto the Omega makes me realise just how "top-class" its handling really is.
Holden with LS1 is about 75kg lighter than standard MV6 2.6.
You're always going to struggle to find a decent V8 available with a proper gearbox. Manual 540s for instance are a whole lot more expensive than autos.
Another option would be BMW straight six, which is doable with even less effort.
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Straight 6 crossed my mind a couple of times.
But it wouldn't be quite the same, that v8 soundtrack is almost priceless IMO. :)
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Straight 6 crossed my mind a couple of times.
But it wouldn't be quite the same, that v8 soundtrack is almost priceless IMO. :)
V8 sound track, you say?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7byo9L4-Ts
(Wrong engine for the car, though, as it's a Chevy - and you wouldn't stick an old iron block V8 in an Omega)
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Not seen this one before. Looks like genuine GM v8 bits from the prototype at a glance. Lingenfelter(?) bought GM's v8 spares and sold them on. To this guy by the looks. He talks about the subframe mounting the engine off centre, as the prototype pics.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-catera-cimarron-forum/130818-cant-wait.htm
This highlights the point that I was trying to make on the exhaust thread. LHD have the space to move the engine an inch or so off centre because the ABS Pump, Brake Servo and Steering Box are on the same side. We don't get that luxury because on one side is the Brake Servo and Steering Box, and on the other is the ABS Pump, so the engine has to be central. :-/
Straight 6 would have to be the LC lump, but perhaps that also misses the point :-/.
Also not convinced that a small block V8 with DOHC has to automatically be wider/taller than a DOHC V6...
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Straight 6 crossed my mind a couple of times.
But it wouldn't be quite the same, that v8 soundtrack is almost priceless IMO. :)
V8 sound track, you say?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7byo9L4-Ts
(Wrong engine for the car, though, as it's a Chevy - and you wouldn't stick an old iron block V8 in an Omega)
I would 8)
Also although i like the v6 soundtrack i think a straight 6 would also be nice 8)
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Also not convinced that a small block V8 with DOHC has to automatically be wider/taller than a DOHC V6...
The GM V6 is 54º between banks while most of the V8s you listed are (AFAIK) 90º between banks - assuming the cylinders & heads are 'roughly' the same height that has to automatically make the V8s considerably wider, no?
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Also not convinced that a small block V8 with DOHC has to automatically be wider/taller than a DOHC V6...
The GM V6 is 54º between banks while most of the V8s you listed are (AFAIK) 90º between banks - assuming the cylinders & heads are 'roughly' the same height that has to automatically make the V8s considerably wider, no?
True :y but they are a smaller capacity than Chris' LS, and therefore have a shorter stroke and smaller bores, ergo they should take up less space :-\
Be interesting to see what 2woody reports back :y
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Anyone know the dimensions of the Lexus V8 ? Cheap as chips from an old LS400 and a cracking engine. :)
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Anyone know the dimensions of the Lexus V8 ? Cheap as chips from an old LS400 and a cracking engine. :)
The Quadcam is a 90 degree DOHC V8 and as such not a small motor; it pretty much fills a box that is 700 mm in all dimensions and is quite literally about 30% bigger than a 350 Chev motor
From: http://www.lextreme.com/1uzfe_info.html
And:
(http://www.fordcortina.com.au/gallery/albums/userpics/10007/normal_1uzfe-engine-dimensions.jpg)
Comparitively, the LS-1 (and Chevy 350):
http://paceperformance.com/p-3990-engine-dimensions.html
So the 1UZ is some 7cm wider than the LS-1 while the LS-1 is a good 11cm wider than a 350. Thus making the 1UZ pretty damned huge :)
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An Iron-block Chevy engine of any type is ideal for use in an Omega. It's not much adrift of LS-1 in terms of power or economy and much, much cheaper to buy. It would certainly be my choice if starting tomorrow.
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what about weight? when I cut out the front end of my rover p6 2000 and fitted 4.9v8 the engine was roughly same weight as 2litre ??? so handling was still the same :y took longer to sort brakes out!!!!
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There is also maintenance to concider. Chevy lump has a single cam with a very short chain drive. So very little maintenance there, just oil changes. Plugs every 50k(?).
Lexus BMW merc, not sure on the cam drive but you can guarantee the service schedule will be way shorter and less reliable. Certainly Jag chain drive is problematic and extremely expensive to repair.
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There is also maintenance to concider. Chevy lump has a single cam with a very short chain drive. So very little maintenance there, just oil changes. Plugs every 50k(?).
Depends which Chevy lump you're talking about - the LSx yep, while an older 350 running a flat tappet cam will benefit from 'special' classic oil (high zinc content) or ZDDP additive, run copper plugs and change them every 20k. Still no great hardship and it'll still see starship mileage with regular oil changes.
All in all, though, compared to the cost of doing it all in the first place - assuming you're paying someone to do all the fab work - maintenance is a tiny consideration, even on something you have to change cam belts on..