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[TheBoy]

Its dropped inlet temp by 5C, taking it away from Critical .

Poor OOF server

[Doctor Gollum]

It's a very lucky server 

Your house must look very suspicious from a thermal imaging camera

[STEMO]

Temperature will drop back down after today, according to the forecast. I'm no expert, but surely running at the edges of critical temperature all the time must shorten the life of components?

[Marks DTM Calib]

Temperature will drop back down after today, according to the forecast. I'm no expert, but surely running at the edges of critical temperature all the time must shorten the life of components?

Depends on the component, certain capacitor types are de-rated (assuming its designed correctly) based on max operating temperature, ICs tend to be quite happy to operate at maximum junction temperature indefinitely without impacting the predicted life.

Exceeding the maximum ambient temperature and compromising the installation (blocking vents, not allowing for the required clearances around the device etc) can result in fast and catastrophic failure.

Sadly, this really is part of the day job, as there are fewer environments which present such extremes of temperature as automotive (-40degC up to 95+degC ambient is not unusual)

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Where I work, devices are chosen at random (as well as preproduction new designs) to be tested  for days or weeks of extreme high / low temperatures and levels of humidity.
Apparently its usually pretty surprising what they can withstand.

[LC0112G]

Sadly, this really is part of the day job, as there are fewer environments which present such extremes of temperature as automotive (-40degC up to 95+degC ambient is not unusual)

One of them is aerospace, where stuff has to work in ambients between -40C  (Parked in the open in Norway in Winter) and +125C (parked in the open in Saudi Arabia in summer). Initial internal temperatures can exceed 200C before the Air Conditioning in the avionics bays gets the temperatures down to 125C. Then they take off, up to 40000 ft where the outside air temp is -40DegC.

[TheBoy]

Temperature will drop back down after today, according to the forecast. I'm no expert, but surely running at the edges of critical temperature all the time must shorten the life of components?

Some servers, without mentioning names like Cisco  , fail all the time because they are crap*.  OOF runs on decent servers



* I would hazard a guess across the Cisco servers I look after, we've had approaching 10% of them suffer some hardware failure in the last 3 to 4 weeks.

[Shackeng]

Sadly, this really is part of the day job, as there are fewer environments which present such extremes of temperature as automotive (-40degC up to 95+degC ambient is not unusual)

One of them is aerospace, where stuff has to work in ambients between -40C  (Parked in the open in Norway in Winter) and +125C (parked in the open in Saudi Arabia in summer). Initial internal temperatures can exceed 200C before the Air Conditioning in the avionics bays gets the temperatures down to 125C. Then they take off, up to 40000 ft where the outside air temp is -40DegC.

You wish.

[Andy H]

Sadly, this really is part of the day job, as there are fewer environments which present such extremes of temperature as automotive (-40degC up to 95+degC ambient is not unusual)

One of them is aerospace, where stuff has to work in ambients between -40C  (Parked in the open in Norway in Winter) and +125C (parked in the open in Saudi Arabia in summer). Initial internal temperatures can exceed 200C before the Air Conditioning in the avionics bays gets the temperatures down to 125C. Then they take off, up to 40000 ft where the outside air temp is -40DegC.

You wish.

I couldn't resist a 'quick' internet search which turned into a longer one which reminded me of a rule of thumb of 3C/1000ft for the drop in temperature as you climb (lapse rate). We were taught this as Scouts before tramping up Snowdon (3000ft) and Ben Nevis (4000ft).
In theory you take the temperature at ground level (say 20C) and subtract the height in 1000's x3 to get the ambient (so 20- 40x3 = -100C)

3C/1000ft is a rough approximation used to encourage spotty Scouts to carry some warm clothing. Shackeng can probably give us a better approximation 

[LC0112G]

Airliners at cruising height (FL300-FL410) normally report outside temps in the -50C to -60C range. -56C seems to be the most common one. I doubt a Shackleton bothered those altitudes very often though :-)

Haven't personally seen anything colder than -60C, but not saying it doesn't happen.

[Rangie]

This all looks far too technical for me , so I'll have another beer while sitting in the sunshine, and try and work out what this thread is all about ..🍺🍺🍺

[STEMO]

Once again, I'm no expert, but surely temperature at altitude will depend on which part of the world you're in.

[LC0112G]

Once again, I'm no expert, but surely temperature at altitude will depend on which part of the world you're in.

Bit on it here :
https://sciencing.com/tutorial-calculate-altitude-temperature-8788701.html.

Few civil airliners or biz-jets are licensed to fly above FL410. U2's are known to fly 'above FL600', but realistically there ain't much above 41000 ft.

[STEMO]

Sadly, this really is part of the day job, as there are fewer environments which present such extremes of temperature as automotive (-40degC up to 95+degC ambient is not unusual)

One of them is aerospace, where stuff has to work in ambients between -40C  (Parked in the open in Norway in Winter) and +125C (parked in the open in Saudi Arabia in summer). Initial internal temperatures can exceed 200C before the Air Conditioning in the avionics bays gets the temperatures down to 125C. Then they take off, up to 40000 ft where the outside air temp is -40DegC.

You wish.

I couldn't resist a 'quick' internet search which turned into a longer one which reminded me of a rule of thumb of 3C/1000ft for the drop in temperature as you climb (lapse rate). We were taught this as Scouts before tramping up Snowdon (3000ft) and Ben Nevis (4000ft).
In theory you take the temperature at ground level (say 20C) and subtract the height in 1000's x3 to get the ambient (so 20- 40x3 = -100C)

3C/1000ft is a rough approximation used to encourage spotty Scouts to carry some warm clothing. Shackeng can probably give us a better approximation 

3.5°F per thousand feet, Andy, so not quite as cold as that.
(Courtesy of Malcolm's post above)

[Doctor Gollum]

Airliners at cruising height (FL300-FL410) normally report outside temps in the -50C to -60C range. -56C seems to be the most common one. I doubt a Shackleton bothered those altitudes very often though :-)

Haven't personally seen anything colder than -60C, but not saying it doesn't happen.

The Tristar etc at BA easily, and regularly flew over 30,000 

Once again, I'm no expert, but surely temperature at altitude will depend on which part of the world you're in.

This is also true. Lots of variables and the aircraft have to reliably perform in any conditions that they might encounter.

Fuselages are heavily insulated to help stabilise internal temperatures.

Avionics hot air gets expelled into the forward hold and/or out of a vent. This depends on altitude and cabin pressure.

Bleed air from the engines/apu/external source is used to pressurise the cabin via the AC packs which regulate the chosen temperature. The pressure is regulated by a flap at the rear of the aircraft.

This system can keep an A340 cabin at 25°C on the gound in Antarctica with a door open and at the other extreme at about 15° on the ground in Dubai.

Without any bleed air, and doors closed, the cabin temps can easily hit 35-40° on the apron at Gatwick at this time of year. Doors open with a slight breeze running through the cabin takes the edge off.

With all the electronics powered up, even with the flight deck windows open, it's not uncommon for the flight deck temps to be north of 30° in the hangar. Again, no bleed air.

[STEMO]

Airliners at cruising height (FL300-FL410) normally report outside temps in the -50C to -60C range. -56C seems to be the most common one. I doubt a Shackleton bothered those altitudes very often though :-)

Haven't personally seen anything colder than -60C, but not saying it doesn't happen.

The Tristar etc at BA easily, and regularly flew over 30,000 

Once again, I'm no expert, but surely temperature at altitude will depend on which part of the world you're in.

This is also true. Lots of variables and the aircraft have to reliably perform in any conditions that they might encounter.

Fuselages are heavily insulated to help stabilise internal temperatures.

Avionics hot air gets expelled into the forward hold and/or out of a vent. This depends on altitude and cabin pressure.

Bleed air from the engines/apu/external source is used to pressurise the cabin via the AC packs which regulate the chosen temperature. The pressure is regulated by a flap at the rear of the aircraft.

This system can keep an A340 cabin at 25°C on the gound in Antarctica with a door open and at the other extreme at about 15° on the ground in Dubai.

Without any bleed air, and doors closed, the cabin temps can easily hit 35-40° on the apron at Gatwick at this time of year. Doors open with a slight breeze running through the cabin takes the edge off.

With all the electronics powered up, even with the flight deck windows open, it's not uncommon for the flight deck temps to be north of 30° in the hangar. Again, no bleed air.

Which is Flight level 300, surely?

[Doctor Gollum]

It is

I made that observation because the official ceiling of the Shackleton is 20,000 ft, and Chris had a post RAF job at BA

[LC0112G]

Airliners at cruising height (FL300-FL410) normally report outside temps in the -50C to -60C range. -56C seems to be the most common one. I doubt a Shackleton bothered those altitudes very often though :-)

Haven't personally seen anything colder than -60C, but not saying it doesn't happen.

The Tristar etc at BA easily, and regularly flew over 30,000 

I said Shackleton, not Shackeng. A previous Avitar Shackeng used suggests he preferred 8 screws to 3 blow jobs :-)

IIRC some older aircraft were certified up to eithr FL450 or FL490 - I think Learjets and possibly early B-747's . The newer stuff struggles not through technical capability, but because regulations now give a time limit to get from maximum cruising altitude down to 18000? ft in the event of a sudden cabin depressurisation. Therefore most newer stuff, including all the Airbus liners, are only certified to FL410. AIUI.

[Doctor Gollum]

Airliners at cruising height (FL300-FL410) normally report outside temps in the -50C to -60C range. -56C seems to be the most common one. I doubt a Shackleton bothered those altitudes very often though :-)

Haven't personally seen anything colder than -60C, but not saying it doesn't happen.

The Tristar etc at BA easily, and regularly flew over 30,000 

I said Shackleton, not Shackeng. A previous Avitar Shackeng used suggests he preferred 8 screws to 3 blow jobs :-)

IIRC some older aircraft were certified up to eithr FL450 or FL490 - I think Learjets and possibly early B-747's . The newer stuff struggles not through technical capability, but because regulations now give a time limit to get from maximum cruising altitude down to 18000? ft in the event of a sudden cabin depressurisation. Therefore most newer stuff, including all the Airbus liners, are only certified to FL410. AIUI.

China Airlines obviously didn't get that memo...

Their A350 flight from Taipei to Auckland is currently sat at FL420

Incidentally, it looks like Sippy Cup Joe is slumming it at FL340 in his C32... A bit of a comedown from all the faff of his arrival at Mildenhall...

[Shackeng]

Airliners at cruising height (FL300-FL410) normally report outside temps in the -50C to -60C range. -56C seems to be the most common one. I doubt a Shackleton bothered those altitudes very often though :-)

Haven't personally seen anything colder than -60C, but not saying it doesn't happen.

The Tristar etc at BA easily, and regularly flew over 30,000 

I said Shackleton, not Shackeng. A previous Avitar Shackeng used suggests he preferred 8 screws to 3 blow jobs :-)

IIRC some older aircraft were certified up to eithr FL450 or FL490 - I think Learjets and possibly early B-747's . The newer stuff struggles not through technical capability, but because regulations now give a time limit to get from maximum cruising altitude down to 18000? ft in the event of a sudden cabin depressurisation. Therefore most newer stuff, including all the Airbus liners, are only certified to FL410. AIUI.

Puhlease! 8 screws, PLUS, to borrow your somewhat crude analogy, 2 blow jobs.

[Shackeng]

The L1011 was certified to 420. If a/c weight and ATC permitted, we would ocsnly get up to 410, with OAT’s of as low, in my personal experience, as -67C. We would optimally fly at the highest level for fuel consumption, commensurate with the most favourable meteorological conditions, winds etc. conducive to the most comfortable ride and the best ground speed, and comfortably within our max allowable weight for the altitude to avoid being too close to “coffin corner”.  See Coffin Corner Aviation.

[Doctor Gollum]

That's most interesting. And timely... doing Modules 8 and 10 in July

[LC0112G]

Airliners at cruising height (FL300-FL410) normally report outside temps in the -50C to -60C range. -56C seems to be the most common one. I doubt a Shackleton bothered those altitudes very often though :-)

Haven't personally seen anything colder than -60C, but not saying it doesn't happen.

The Tristar etc at BA easily, and regularly flew over 30,000 

I said Shackleton, not Shackeng. A previous Avitar Shackeng used suggests he preferred 8 screws to 3 blow jobs :-)

IIRC some older aircraft were certified up to eithr FL450 or FL490 - I think Learjets and possibly early B-747's . The newer stuff struggles not through technical capability, but because regulations now give a time limit to get from maximum cruising altitude down to 18000? ft in the event of a sudden cabin depressurisation. Therefore most newer stuff, including all the Airbus liners, are only certified to FL410. AIUI.

China Airlines obviously didn't get that memo...

Their A350 flight from Taipei to Auckland is currently sat at FL420

Fair enough, the meetings I had at EADS were before the A350 first flew.

Incidentally, it looks like Sippy Cup Joe is slumming it at FL340 in his C32... A bit of a comedown from all the faff of his arrival at Mildenhall...

The C-32 wasn't carrying uncle Joe. He was on AF-1 (VC-25A 82-8000) which departed Geneva and headed West over France. AF-1 has had it's ADSB transponder turned off for the entire trip, so has only shown on tracking sites which support MLAT.

There were actually 2 C-32's which came over the UK last night -SAM18 (09-0017) which was the 'escape jet' out of Ramstein (and was also negative ADSB). SAM46 (09-0016) was the press barge (Geneva to Bangor Maine) which did have its AADSB transponder turned on, so showed on all the noddy tracking sites :-)

And then there was GRIM99.

[Doctor Gollum]

SAM46 didn't come anywhere near the UK... It left France just north of Bordeaux

Anyhoo, I quite liked the idea of Sippy Cup stuck in the non reclining seats in row 30

Most of the aircraft at or above FL410 were Dreamliners when I looked

[LC0112G]

SAM46 didn't come anywhere near the UK... It left France just north of Bordeaux

Anyhoo, I quite liked the idea of Sippy Cup stuck in the non reclining seats in row 30

Most of the aircraft at or above FL410 were Dreamliners when I looked

Fraid not. You've been listening to GB News too much  . Not my piccie, but...



SAM46 is the purple plane over Brighton. It entered UK airspace south east of Brighton, and tracked north westerly in a more or less straight line towards Dublin. It went Oceanic of the north west of Eire, en-route Bangor Maine.

AF-1, with Biden on board is the blue plane to the south of Brest. Grim99 is the blue plane to the south of Cork. SAM18 isn't showing, but it came into the UK over Clacton and headed basically due west and was about 20 minutes behind Grim99.

[STEMO]

All of this goes over my head. Geddit? Over my head 
Never mind 

[ronnyd]

All of this goes over my head. Geddit? Over my head 
Never mind 

 

[Nick W]

All of this goes over my head. Geddit? Over my head 
Never mind 

WHOOSH!


I'd give you the flight number, but it's in my anorak pocket...

[Doctor Gollum]

Perchance it wasn't SAM46 that I saw, but it was a C32 heading west from French France.

I only happened to be looking having been rudely disturbed by the Virgin flight to Lagos doing it's usual 10ft per minute* climb...

*a slight exaggeration, but it wasn't uncommon for the MedView Lagos flights to cross the coast below 11,000 ft due to their weight

[LC0112G]

Anyhoo, I quite liked the idea of Sippy Cup stuck in the non reclining seats in row 30

Not all B-757's are 'equal'. Plenty of interior pictures on the net of C-32A's although very few of the C-32B's

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/23087/usaf-upgrading-another-c-32-air-force-2-interior-for-16m-heres-what-the-first-looks-like

POTUS occasionally uses a C-32 at home and abroad if the VC-25/B-742 is a bit too big to get into the closest airport. IIRC Trump used one to get to Ireland the last time he was in the UK.

And "Trump-Force-1" is/was a B-757 as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Force_One

The aircraft has two Rolls-Royce RB211 turbofan engines, and is configured to seat 43 people. It has a dining room, bathroom, shower, bedroom, guest room, and galley. Many fixtures are plated in 24k gold.

Not exactly cattle class.

[Doctor Gollum]

It was the IDEA of Sippy Cup propped in the corner at 30A next to the toilet with no recline rather than the far more comfortable reality of a Presidential trans Atlantic crossing 

Trump's 757 isn't a C32 and vice versa.

Although I would rather fly on it than in a C32 full of lefty hacks, regardless of how nice a C32 might be...  And as if gold plated fixtures matter...  Saudia used to have gold plated toilet bowls, purple velvet seat covers and shagpile carpet in first class on their 747-300 Combis... By comparison, economy was worse than Airtours in fact the main deck hold was probably more comfortable 

Incidentally, if that screen shot was from just after 9 pm the other night, Flightradar showed what is suggested as AF1 as a C32, because that's roughly where it was and at more or less that altitude when I happened to see it. Not that I particularly care, nor that it matters in the slightest. You clearly spend alot of time 'monitoring' such things so not looking to have a debate about it hypothetically speaking though, if an aircraft can so readily be (mis)identified as something it isn't, what's to say that MH17 didn't land on Diego Garcia as a Gulfstream? 🤔

For me, Flightradar is a useful tool for seeing roughly where my next aircraft has got to and is a bit less tedious than trawling through the daily allocations from Luton

Incidentally isn't Air Force One technically the call sign of whatever the President happens to be flying on board? The converted 747 being what people consider the generic presidential aircraft...

[LC0112G]

None of the Flight tracking websites are perfect - they all have their problems. They are mostly very good for general civil aircraft movements because there isn't really any requirement to disguise what is going on. I'm not really interested in civil - other than to know if my TUi B737 has actually landed at Exeter/Bristol ready for my 6AM tomorrow morning flight.

Military coverage is where it's at for me, and Flightradar/FR24 is probably the worst for that.  In order to get access to official FAA radar feeds they have had to agree to mask sensitive flights from public view. Sensitive has expanded to include most Military and even some biz-jets operated by multi-millionaires.

Incase you don't know, ModeS tracking ony requires that an aircraft transmits it's "unique" 24 bit number, it's callsign, it's altitude, and it's squawk. They NEVER transmit their tail number or type. In addition if an aircraft is ADSB enabled it can also transmit it's latitude and longitude. Most military aircraft nowadays are fitted with all of the above (full ADSB), but many of them fly with the ADSB turned off. Therefore all you get is callsign, altitude and the "unique" 24 bit number.

It requires a database to convert the 24 bit numbers (called ICAO codes) to aircraft tail numbers/serials so know what the aircraft is. The vast majority of civil aircraft use a 'static' number - they are allocated the number by the state they're registered in.

Many Military aircraft also use 'static' allocations, but 'dynamic' allocation is becoming more common, particularly on US navy P-8's and USAF F-15's. RAF F-35Bs rarely show on Mode S, but when they do they always show as tail number ZM150 and callsign "F35LGHTNG", which means that all of them seen to date are using the same 24 bit ICAO code.

hypothetically speaking though, if an aircraft can so readily be (mis)identified as something it isn't, what's to say that MH17 didn't land on Diego Garcia as a Gulfstream? 🤔

Absolutely nothing. ModeS/ADSB data only shows what is probably up there, and if someone is determined to spoof the system its relatively easy to do so. The only way to know for sure is for someone to get eyes-on and read the tail number off.

Incidentally isn't Air Force One technically the call sign of whatever the President happens to be flying on board? The converted 747 being what people consider the generic presidential aircraft...

Yes. Whenever POTUS flies on a USAF operated aircraft the callsign is AF1. Doesn't matter if it's a VC-25, C-32, C-17, C-130, if POTUS is on board it's AF1. If he's in a US Marine corps aircraft (such as the VH3 helicopters) then the call-sign is Marine1. And if he's on a US Navy Aircraft, its Navy1.

There are very rare exceptions. Trips into Iraq/Afghanistan to see the troops are usually disguised. On one recent trip the VC-25 used an ICAO code and callsign (Reach) more normally allocated to a C-17 transport planes. Trouble is, cover was blown when someone took a photo of it flying over northern England - Difficult to mistake a VC-25.   

[Doctor Gollum]

Interesting

So that C32 shown on FR24 could well have been El Presidente on his more usual aircraft...

It only showed as having departed Geneva (the from part being largely useless information), along with speed and altitude.

To add, been having a rummage...

I believe the aircraft shown on FR24 was actually 99-0003 operating SAM490

And looking at its flights earlier this week, whilst it probably wasn't Sippy Cups aircraft, it was probably in sight of it...

[Sir Tigger KC]

There was an unusual amount of aircraft flying over last weekend after the G7 had finished, enough to spike my curiosity and check on Flightradar, but there wasn't much on there... 

[LC0112G]

There was an unusual amount of aircraft flying over last weekend after the G7 had finished, enough to spike my curiosity and check on Flightradar, but there wasn't much on there...

From memory....

2 x Japanese Airforce B777's (both seen OTT Yeovil  )
1 x Korean Air Force B747
1 x USAF VC-25 "AF-1"
1 x USAF C-32A "SAM46"
4 x USMC V-22 Ospreys (operating out of Exeter)
3 x USMC KC-130's (operating out of Exeter)
2 x USMC VH-3's (operating out of Culdrose)
3 x RAF Chinooks (Culdrose)
3 x RN Wildcats (Culdrose)
2 x German Air Force A319's
1 x Italian Air Force A319
1 x Australian Air Force A330 (KC30)
3 x French Airforce Bizjets, plus 2 Casa235's and 2 Super Pumas
1 x South African Airforce Bizjet.
Few other civvy bits carrying various EU leaders.

Support in the few days leading up to and after the G7 was around 20 USAF C-17's into St Mawgan, and 4 into Culdrose (delivering and picking up the VH-3's).

There were also RAF Typhoons flying 8 hour CAP missions on several occasions, supported by RAF Voyager tankers, and a French AWACS.

[LC0112G]

Interesting

So that C32 shown on FR24 could well have been El Presidente on his more usual aircraft...

It only showed as having departed Geneva (the from part being largely useless information), along with speed and altitude.

To add, been having a rummage...

I believe the aircraft shown on FR24 was actually 99-0003 operating SAM490

And looking at its flights earlier this week, whilst it probably wasn't Sippy Cups aircraft, it was probably in sight of it...

Looking back through my personal data...

AF1 departed Geneva around 20:45CET (19:45BST, 18:45Z)
GRIM99 departed Mildenhall around 20:45CET (19:45BST,18:45Z)
SAM18 departed Ramstein around 20:45CET (19:45BST, 18:45Z)
SAM46 departed Geneva around 20:50CET (19:50BST, 18:50Z)
SAM490 departed Geneva around 22:45CET (21:45BST, 20:45Z)

The ADSBexchange snapshot isn't mine, but I'd estimate it was taken around 20:45BST which is well before SAM490 departed Geneva. Not that it really matters but I suspect you were 2 hours late looking at Flightaware, and therefore mistook what you were seeing.

[Doctor Gollum]

At least one of the Japanese B777s was parked at Gatwick last Saturday.

They normally 'hide' the interesting stuff on the 170s, but as they're full of BA aircraft, they had to hide the Japanese 7777 in plain sight

[Sir Tigger KC]

There was an unusual amount of aircraft flying over last weekend after the G7 had finished, enough to spike my curiosity and check on Flightradar, but there wasn't much on there...

From memory....

2 x Japanese Airforce B777's (both seen OTT Yeovil  )
1 x Korean Air Force B747
1 x USAF VC-25 "AF-1"
1 x USAF C-32A "SAM46"
4 x USMC V-22 Ospreys (operating out of Exeter)
3 x USMC KC-130's (operating out of Exeter)
2 x USMC VH-3's (operating out of Culdrose)
3 x RAF Chinooks (Culdrose)
3 x RN Wildcats (Culdrose)
2 x German Air Force A319's
1 x Italian Air Force A319
1 x Australian Air Force A330 (KC30)
3 x French Airforce Bizjets, plus 2 Casa235's and 2 Super Pumas
1 x South African Airforce Bizjet.
Few other civvy bits carrying various EU leaders.

Support in the few days leading up to and after the G7 was around 20 USAF C-17's into St Mawgan, and 4 into Culdrose (delivering and picking up the VH-3's).

There were also RAF Typhoons flying 8 hour CAP missions on several occasions, supported by RAF Voyager tankers, and a French AWACS.

I wonder what the carbon footprint of that lot was? 

[LC0112G]

At least one of the Japanese B777s was parked at Gatwick last Saturday.

They normally 'hide' the interesting stuff on the 170s, but as they're full of BA aircraft, they had to hide the Japanese 7777 in plain sight

Yes, the second Japanese flew LGW->NQY on Sunday afternoon to join the other one already there. Both left Sunday evening. One of them actually visited NQY 2 weeks before the G7. The assumption is this was carrying staff/press who needed to complete 7/14 days isolation in the UK before the G7 started.

The second German A319 flew Germany->Exeter, then orbited for 2 hours until Aunti Angie took off from NQY in the first A319, and then returned to Germany without landing. There were comments about the last German aircraft to hold over Exeter causing a lot of damage - in 1945 

The Ozzie went Brize->NQY->STN.
SAM18 went Brize->Ramstein.

Are you doing any aircraft towing/parking training? Might be an opening at Heathrow soon 

[Doctor Gollum]

Composite repairs will pay better