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[Webby the Bear]

Hi guys,

Went to drive the Omega this morning and it just cranked over. I cycled the key a couple of times to prime it with fuel. Then started straight away. This is strange cos the Omega never misses a beat.

No cutting out or anything like that.

I did have the inlets out at the weekend but I'm thinking it cant be that cos i only undid fuel lines and remopved them from the valley.... i left it plugged in while i sorted my coolant leak (leaking at the coolant bridge washers).

So ill go back and make sure those fuel lines to the inlets aren't leaking.

But do we think this is early CPS failure? 

[VXL V6]

I did have the inlets out at the weekend but I'm thinking it cant be that cos i only undid fuel lines and remopved them from the valley.... i left it plugged in while i sorted my coolant leak (leaking at the coolant bridge washers).

Had you started it since then?

[Webby the Bear]

I did have the inlets out at the weekend but I'm thinking it cant be that cos i only undid fuel lines and remopved them from the valley.... i left it plugged in while i sorted my coolant leak (leaking at the coolant bridge washers).

Had you started it since then?

Yes mate. Put it all back together. Been running fine. Until this morn...

[VXL V6]

Could well be CPS then. Early stages... 

You will of course have a spare in the boot and the tools to fit it should you come to a grinding halt 

The last one that failed (on my 3.2 - 85K original sensor) fortunately got me round London and halfway back before it spat it's dummy out, which fortunately was on the A40 as I'd dived off the M40 to drive down the proper chicken shit canyon.

No codes at all and just a couple of poor starts the day before.

[Webby the Bear]

Sorry, just to add, it also didnt start (cranked but didnt fire) when i first started it after putting the inlets back. but i put this down to the fact that i'd de-pressurised the fuel system and it had to ''refill''............. like this morning, once primed with a couple of cycles of the key it fired straight away.

sorry for any confusion

any ideas would be great

[Webby the Bear]

Could well be CPS then. Early stages... 

You will of course have a spare in the boot and the tools to fit it should you come to a grinding halt 

The last one that failed (on my 3.2 - 85K original sensor) fortunately got me round London and halfway back before it spat it's dummy out, which fortunately was on the A40 as I'd dived off the M40 to drive down the proper chicken shit canyon.

No codes at all and just a couple of poor starts the day before.

Thanks mate. I'll certainly be keeping an eye on this! 

[Webby the Bear]

Hasn't played up at all tonight (touch wood).

Here's a question though....

When my cambelt went BANG a year ago shortly before the check engine light came on. This I assume will be because the crank and cam positions would have been outta whack.

When me and Martin did the rebuild and got her running again the check engine light stayed on for a few starts and then finally went out when it realised all was once again well.

My question..... if I do the pedal trick to se if I have a crank sensor code (for the couple of poor starts recently) am I going to get the CPS code 19 from the previous explosion..... or would those codes hae disappeared on their own by now and anything new will be of late?

 

[dbug]

Hasn't played up at all tonight (touch wood).

Here's a question though....

When my cambelt went BANG a year ago shortly before the check engine light came on. This I assume will be because the crank and cam positions would have been outta whack.

When me and Martin did the rebuild and got her running again the check engine light stayed on for a few starts and then finally went out when it realised all was once again well.

My question..... if I do the pedal trick to se if I have a crank sensor code (for the couple of poor starts recently) am I going to get the CPS code 19 from the previous explosion..... or would those codes hae disappeared on their own by now and anything new will be of late?

 

Old cps code 19 should have disappeared after a year
Sounds like you have a leak on an injector or on fuel rail

[Webby the Bear]

Thanks Dbug! 

That would be strange though. When I removed the inlets all I did was depressurise the system by pressing the Schrader valve and then undo the two fuel pipes (17mm and 19mm). Everything else stayed in tact!

I've since looked at the two unions and there's definitely no leaking there!

Luckily for me I have two spare inlets with injectors so if it persists ill simply swap it out and see what I get 

[Webby the Bear]

*edit* when I say everything stayed in tact I mean I only removed the bolts to be able to lift the inlets out so I could get to coolant bridge 

[05omegav6]

You'd know if you had a fuel leak, even in this heat...

Crank sensor is the likely culprit, and doesn't always produce a code on the v6

[Webby the Bear]

You'd know if you had a fuel leak, even in this heat...

Crank sensor is the likely culprit, and doesn't always produce a code on the v6

Thanks Al 

Does seem strange though that it's timing with the inlet/fuel rail removal acting up straight after.

Who knows. if it persists theres no problem in swapping that out. And in the mean time I can do the pedal trick to check for CPS codes.

Wonder if perhaps the Schrader valve's leaking also? 

[05omegav6]

Any leaks from the fuel rail assembly collects in the V before evaporating. You would smell it in the car if it leaked whilst driving. If you can see it or smell it then it isn't leaking, simples

Double check any plugs that you moved just to be sure, but likely to be coincidence...

[Webby the Bear]

Any leaks from the fuel rail assembly collects in the V before evaporating. You would smell it in the car if it leaked whilst driving. If you can see it or smell it then it isn't leaking, simples

Double check any plugs that you moved just to be sure, but likely to be coincidence...

Thanks buddy. Defo no smell of fuel 

[cem_devecioglu]

2 weeks ago my miggy also started to show similiar symptoms


if you cant see code 19 (which you may not) the only way to be sure is to purchase a new one

[4x4]

Wasnt that the crank sensor symes gave you when we did cambelt change at his place?

[Webby the Bear]

Wasnt that the crank sensor symes gave you when we did cambelt change at his place?

It was mate. And very kind of him to donate it 

That was over a year ago tho

[Sir Tigger KC]

I had a crank sensor go a couple of years ago after fitting a new dispack.  I don't think the cables like being disturbed. 

[4x4]

I would be getting a new 1 ordered and kept in boot just incase 

[Webby the Bear]

I would be getting a new 1 ordered and kept in boot just incase 

Was at Vx today and enquired. £48 + VAT. Thought they were more in the £90-region 

[05omegav6]

They vary from engine to engine depending on build date

[dbug]

Any leaks from the fuel rail assembly collects in the V before evaporating. You would smell it in the car if it leaked whilst driving. If you can see it or smell it then it isn't leaking, simples

Double check any plugs that you moved just to be sure, but likely to be coincidence...

Agreed, but you wouldn't necessarily smell fuel if it was a leaking injector   Had exactly the same on a 2.5V6 - rarely started 1st time when cold, but always 2nd time.

[05omegav6]

My fuel leak was due to a perished injector seal which objected to being disturbed, and was quite obvious when a smell of fuel became apparant...

Unlikely in this case, as the only fuel components disturbed were the feed and return pipes to the fuel rail. The manifold was removed intact, and therefore will be leak free

[Webby the Bear]

Thanks guys as ever for your help, much appreciated! 

I'll keep an eye on it for now because since the job, it's only done it twice. If it starts cutting out I'll defo know what it is 

Thanks lads 

[terry paget]

Smell of fuel near filler would indicate corrosion in pump outlet pipe, which can cause your symptons.

[Webby the Bear]

Smell of fuel near filler would indicate corrosion in pump outlet pipe, which can cause your symptons.

Thanks Terry. Will give a sniff round the petrol cap to see if I can smell it. But at the moment (touching wood) she's ben fine 

[Webby the Bear]

Morning guys,

Not bumping the thread but have an update....

I changed the inlets / fuel rail for a known good one yesterday. Hasn't changed the symptoms at all.

Now, the car is only struggling to start first thing in morning. If I cycle key a few times it gets itself going. Then after that it starts every time.

I'm wondering now if the check valve in the fuel pump has gone? Obviously fuel pump itself is working fine cos otherwise it wouldn't run lol but if check valve is bad and the built up fuel is returning to the tank.

Thoughts?

[Webby the Bear]

Morning guys,

Not bumping the thread but have an update....

I changed the inlets / fuel rail for a known good one yesterday. Hasn't changed the symptoms at all.

Now, the car is only struggling to start first thing in morning. If I cycle key a few times it gets itself going. Then after that it starts every time.

I'm wondering now if the check valve in the fuel pump has gone? Obviously fuel pump itself is working fine cos otherwise it wouldn't run lol but if check valve is bad and the built up fuel is returning to the tank.

Thoughts?

One quick thing... I do have a slight vacuum leak between the throttle body and breather bridge.... bugger just wont seal. I put a load of black gasket sealer to seal it up. Could this perhaps be a cause of cold start issue?

[Marks DTM Calib]

Morning guys,

Not bumping the thread but have an update....

I changed the inlets / fuel rail for a known good one yesterday. Hasn't changed the symptoms at all.

Now, the car is only struggling to start first thing in morning. If I cycle key a few times it gets itself going. Then after that it starts every time.

I'm wondering now if the check valve in the fuel pump has gone? Obviously fuel pump itself is working fine cos otherwise it wouldn't run lol but if check valve is bad and the built up fuel is returning to the tank.

Thoughts?

So the question you have to ask yourself is, check valve or no check valve.....where would the air be getting in to let the fuel run back to the tank.

[Webby the Bear]

Morning guys,

Not bumping the thread but have an update....

I changed the inlets / fuel rail for a known good one yesterday. Hasn't changed the symptoms at all.

Now, the car is only struggling to start first thing in morning. If I cycle key a few times it gets itself going. Then after that it starts every time.

I'm wondering now if the check valve in the fuel pump has gone? Obviously fuel pump itself is working fine cos otherwise it wouldn't run lol but if check valve is bad and the built up fuel is returning to the tank.

Thoughts?

So the question you have to ask yourself is, check valve or no check valve.....where would the air be getting in to let the fuel run back to the tank.

Well, anywhere along the fuel line between tank and fuel rail? 

If, so I've double checked the two line connection to the fuel rail. I was under car yesterday and nowt wet at the fuel filter..... am I missing something obvious 

[Marks DTM Calib]

Morning guys,

Not bumping the thread but have an update....

I changed the inlets / fuel rail for a known good one yesterday. Hasn't changed the symptoms at all.

Now, the car is only struggling to start first thing in morning. If I cycle key a few times it gets itself going. Then after that it starts every time.

I'm wondering now if the check valve in the fuel pump has gone? Obviously fuel pump itself is working fine cos otherwise it wouldn't run lol but if check valve is bad and the built up fuel is returning to the tank.

Thoughts?

So the question you have to ask yourself is, check valve or no check valve.....where would the air be getting in to let the fuel run back to the tank.

Well, anywhere along the fuel line between tank and fuel rail? 

If, so I've double checked the two line connection to the fuel rail. I was under car yesterday and nowt wet at the fuel filter..... am I missing something obvious 

Ok, so if that was the case what do you think would be occurring with the pump running and the lines loaded with fuel at 3Bar of pressure 

Sorry for being cryptic, its a good learning exercise and trying to help you consider what the operating characteristics of the fuel line are 

[Webby the Bear]

Morning guys,

Not bumping the thread but have an update....

I changed the inlets / fuel rail for a known good one yesterday. Hasn't changed the symptoms at all.

Now, the car is only struggling to start first thing in morning. If I cycle key a few times it gets itself going. Then after that it starts every time.

I'm wondering now if the check valve in the fuel pump has gone? Obviously fuel pump itself is working fine cos otherwise it wouldn't run lol but if check valve is bad and the built up fuel is returning to the tank.

Thoughts?

So the question you have to ask yourself is, check valve or no check valve.....where would the air be getting in to let the fuel run back to the tank.

Well, anywhere along the fuel line between tank and fuel rail? 

If, so I've double checked the two line connection to the fuel rail. I was under car yesterday and nowt wet at the fuel filter..... am I missing something obvious 

Ok, so if that was the case what do you think would be occurring with the pump running and the lines loaded with fuel at 3Bar of pressure 

Sorry for being cryptic, its a good learning exercise and trying to help you consider what the operating characteristics of the fuel line are 

Not at all Mark. I like it! 

Well if that was the case it'd be pishing out somewhere......

[Marks DTM Calib]

Very good, so its a very reasonable inference that the fuel lines are fine and that fuel is not draining back to the tank 

If you really want to, you could pop the bonnet, remove the top from the fuel pump relay and press the contacts to run the pump for ten seconds or so prior to starting to rule the theory out.

[05omegav6]

Once the car is running, what happens when full throttle is applied for more than a quick burst?

[Webby the Bear]

Once the car is running, what happens when full throttle is applied for more than a quick burst?

Absolutely fine. Full throttle it's quick and goes through the rev range well.

However, just been out and noticed that at cold idle there's popping from the exhaust. Immediately goes away when throttle applied and runs smoothly and miss goes away. A quick spray of the breather bridge to TB reveals a bad vacuum leak... the engine almost stalled when I did this...........

[Webby the Bear]

Very good, so its a very reasonable inference that the fuel lines are fine and that fuel is not draining back to the tank 

If you really want to, you could pop the bonnet, remove the top from the fuel pump relay and press the contacts to run the pump for ten seconds or so prior to starting to rule the theory out.

Thanks Mark 

Re the post above.... I think it's a vac leak. It's leaking vacuum from breather bridge to TB and and the plenum to breather bridge (the circle thing that pushes in to the plenum). And I know vac leaks do affect cold starts.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Vacuum leaks affect anything relating to idling revs 

[Webby the Bear]

Vacuum leaks affect anything relating to idling revs 

Thanks for all your help mate. I'll get that fixed.

I did previously fit two new 'o' rings for breather bridge to TB but they don't seem to be sealing. Is there any home remedy other than filling the area with gasket maker? Would save me going to VX and being charged £5 for 2 of the smallest 'o' rings in history