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Author Topic: Mechanic School Blog  (Read 95958 times)

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Webby the Bear

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Webby the Bear

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #256 on: 07 December 2012, 18:11:03 »

or this.....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bernzomatic-Solid-Brass-Adjustable-JT682/dp/B0055S2JCO

what do i need in addition to this? just a gas bottle? sorry i know nowt about this
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #257 on: 07 December 2012, 20:43:32 »

I have a TS7000, you need to check on their website to make sure it can work on mapp and propane. You can get the gas from the likes of B&Q at the larger stores
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Webby the Bear

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #258 on: 08 December 2012, 12:24:22 »

thanks mark. i was watching ETCG and i noticed this in the corner...

so presumably (as long as i have the right canister) this would just be hooked up to my ''nozzle thingy'' and would be wireless
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #259 on: 10 December 2012, 08:32:02 »

Exactly, the nozzle simply screws onto the top of one of those cylinders.
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Webby the Bear

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #260 on: 12 December 2012, 22:38:42 »

Good evening guys.

Well a great week of learning. All assessments ended last week. Got some excellent results. Very happy.

SO This week we've started ignition.

We first of all looked at the early distributor and the ''contact breaker'' system...



In short the battery will provide 12V up to the coil when the ignition switch is on. It will flow through the primary winding (less tightly wound coil) and up to the condensor back to an earth (the chassis). this is charging the primary coil and producing an electro-magnetic force.
on the condensor there is a cam that when turned it will hit the breaker points and break the circuit. the magnetic field around the primary coil will collapse and the current will then be looking for a path back to earth.... the only place it can go....through the secondary (tightly wound) coil. being much more tightly wound will give even more force and produce out of it around 20kV which will be sent through the HT leads up to the spark plug.
What i don't get is this.... will the current when the circuit is broken ''back up'' and go the the secondary winding or will it ''jump'' from primary to secondary?

you must understand i'm learning about all this for the first time and am currently looking in to the discovery of electromagnetism but its hard work  :-[ i love the fact that the course (for me) is getting difficult to understand as obviously i want to be challenged but i want to obviously understand it in the end  :y

the funny thing i found about the above was this.... obviously on todays cars there is simply a coilpack and HT Leads. i doubt (apart from the one we had specially in the shop on a stand) i will ever work on one of these so i can competently remove a coilpack, test it with a multimeter set to look at resistance and compare to the manu. spec. so really i suppose i'm aslready able to do what they can do in the garages.....

this however was to try and understand it. if that makes sense.

testing coil packs is easy (i'm sure Mark mentioned multi-meter not being totally accurate) but for the most part it was:

Set multimeter to ohms (its mark is the little horseshoe looking thing on the dial range)....


secondary check..... probe sister cylinders (1 and 4, 2 and 3) take reading
primary check..... probe electrical connector points 1&2 and 2&3. take reading

quite straightforward.

leads should be measured and should be less than 10kohms for every 300mm in length (normally come out around 5kohms i believe).

it gets serious next week though as we have to do ignition timing with a strobe light  :o ??? ??? ??? ??? and we get in to advanced/retarded timing. we touched on it a bit (i.e. timing needs to alter accodring to engine speed) but then he started to talk degrees of crankshaft BTDC and i got well confused.... i get the principle but how on Earth can you measure it when the cars running  ??? ??? ???

Anyway, ive got a little bit more to update so expect another one this week  8)
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Andy B

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #261 on: 12 December 2012, 22:44:20 »

The thing you need to learn is, that if ever you buy/own a car with 'points' is to ditch them ASAP & fit an electronic ignition system. Points were crap! You set them to 0.0??", used the car for an afternoon & they were were out again ...... one side of the points had a spike & t'other side had a pit. The best place for a set of points was ............... the bin!  ;) ;) ;)
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Andy B

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #262 on: 12 December 2012, 22:50:57 »

.... but then he started to talk degrees of crankshaft BTDC and i got well confused.... i get the principle but how on Earth can you measure it when the cars running  ??? ??? ???

.........

When you have your timing gun/strobe looking at the fixed mark on the timing cover & the mark at top dead centre, you turn the dizzy one way or the other till the marks line up (you mark each with a little white paint so you can see them) Some timing guns have the ability to dial the degrees before top dead centre that's required for the particular car, others just do top dead centre & it's up to you to mark your crank pulley at the appropriate mark (it'll have TDC and various others ie 2 4 6 degrees BTDC)

EDIT Mark will do the theory of primary & secondary windings etc  :y :y
« Last Edit: 12 December 2012, 22:52:40 by Andy B »
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omega3000

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #263 on: 12 December 2012, 23:17:11 »

The thing you need to learn is, that if ever you buy/own a car with 'points' is to ditch them ASAP & fit an electronic ignition system. Points were crap! You set them to 0.0??", used the car for an afternoon & they were were out again ...... one side of the points had a spike & t'other side had a pit. The best place for a set of points was ............... the bin! ;) ;) ;)

Nightmare on the kickstart lawnmower  :'(
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Andy B

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #264 on: 12 December 2012, 23:26:43 »

....

Nightmare on the kickstart lawnmower  :'(

I can't remember what's on my pull start Atco lawn mower   :-\
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #265 on: 13 December 2012, 09:01:40 »

As mentioned before, testing a coil pack with a multimeter actualy tells you nothing more than the coils are ok, it fails to identify the common coil pack failure mechanism and gives zero guarantee that the coil or coil pack is ok......in short, its a poor test!

Lets start with the basic operation.

As you already state, the positive side of the coil primary is connected to 12V when the ignition is on (note, on some cars its via a resistor which is shorted out during cranking so as to maintain high coil volts when starting.....so not always this simple!). The negative side connects to the points or electronic ignition system (note the condenser is a transient suppressor to minimse arcing across the points contacts so treat it as a secondary item rather than a primary par of the operation).

When the engine is cranked either of the following happens;

1) A cam rotates in the distributor which opens the points

2) An electronic pickup is triggered to give a timing signal, an electronic switch then 'opens' in the same way as the points.

The basic operation of the coil is this.

When the points or electronic switch are closed current passes through a coil of wire which is wrapped around an iron core (you can see the core on some coils and on the V6 dis pack). As this happens, a magnetic field is 'induced' (created) in the iron core which effectively acts as an energy store.

When the points or electronic switch open, the current flow stops and the magnetic field in the iron core starts to collapse. The energy from this has to go somewhere but there is no longer a circuit on the primary (the points/electronic switch are 'open circuit') and so a current is induced in the secondary winding (this is wound onto the same iron core).

The secondary winding has many more turns than the primary which results in a much higher voltage (due to the turns and a little bit of theroy called V=L x (dI/dt) which is a little complicated for most unless they have excellent maths  :y ) being produced.

This gives a spark of many 10's of KV.

All very simple and the modern systems work on the same principle all be it with more coils and no distributor to distribute the spark to the plugs (distributor is repalced by electronic switches).

A few pointers:

1) The time that the points/electronic switch remain closed is reffered to as the 'dwell angle', this is actualy the time available to induce the magnetic field in the coil and in the case of mechanical systems (e.g. points) is related to the points gap at maximum opening and hence setting the gap is important (you can get dwell meters which measure the dwell). Electronic systems do this 'automaticaly' by monitoring the curret through the coil. If Dwell is to low, the spark energy will be less (less magnetic field 'stored' in the coil)

2) Testing coil output requires a special test plug with adjustable gap, when removed from a compression cycle, a spark plug will only need a few thousand volts to spark.....this is NOT a good test method......and the screwdriver to the head is also not a great science either!. As a guide, a spark will generaly jump around 1mm for every 1mm of gap!

3) Its a weekly moan of mine regarding 'Earths' as earths do not appear on cars and it is an incorrect term. A key reason why I harp on about it is because 'Earths' are very important and critical to safe operation of many electrical items and hence need care and respect. A vehicles body is a 0V point or a chassis return, to make it an earth you would need to connect it via a large metal cable to a large metal spike driven into the ground  :y. In summary, when working on a real earth (e.g. house wiring etc) you need to treat it with great repsect and care as the fault current it may have to handle can be 100's of amps plus even on a low current system where as a chassis retrun could be as simple as a screw through the body work which is man enough to carry the operating current of the device.

On the lawnmowers, they are probably a magneto ignition switch with a capacitor system.
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Entwood

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #266 on: 13 December 2012, 09:31:41 »


<big snip>

The secondary winding has many more turns than the primary which results in a much higher voltage (due to the turns and a little bit of theroy called V=L x (dI/dt) which is a little complicated for most unless they have excellent maths  :y ) being produced.

<big snip>


Calculus  :) :) :)  REAL mathematics .. :)   

Differentiating Current with respect to Time ... .. love it ..:y :y :y :y :y :y :y
« Last Edit: 13 December 2012, 09:34:40 by Entwood »
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #267 on: 13 December 2012, 09:40:56 »

It explains nicely how faster (e.g. electronic) switching can generate more V's  :y
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Andy B

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #268 on: 13 December 2012, 11:10:10 »

.....

Calculus  :) :) :)  REAL mathematics .. :)   

Differentiating Current with respect to Time ... .. love it ..:y :y :y :y :y :y :y

I can't find that button on my calculator!  ???  ???  ;)
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Webby the Bear

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Re: Mechanic School Blog
« Reply #269 on: 13 December 2012, 18:10:44 »

As mentioned before, testing a coil pack with a multimeter actualy tells you nothing more than the coils are ok, it fails to identify the common coil pack failure mechanism and gives zero guarantee that the coil or coil pack is ok......in short, its a poor test!

Lets start with the basic operation.

As you already state, the positive side of the coil primary is connected to 12V when the ignition is on (note, on some cars its via a resistor which is shorted out during cranking so as to maintain high coil volts when starting.....so not always this simple!). The negative side connects to the points or electronic ignition system (note the condenser is a transient suppressor to minimse arcing across the points contacts so treat it as a secondary item rather than a primary par of the operation).

When the engine is cranked either of the following happens;

1) A cam rotates in the distributor which opens the points

2) An electronic pickup is triggered to give a timing signal, an electronic switch then 'opens' in the same way as the points.

The basic operation of the coil is this.

When the points or electronic switch are closed current passes through a coil of wire which is wrapped around an iron core (you can see the core on some coils and on the V6 dis pack). As this happens, a magnetic field is 'induced' (created) in the iron core which effectively acts as an energy store.

When the points or electronic switch open, the current flow stops and the magnetic field in the iron core starts to collapse. The energy from this has to go somewhere but there is no longer a circuit on the primary (the points/electronic switch are 'open circuit') and so a current is induced in the secondary winding (this is wound onto the same iron core).

The secondary winding has many more turns than the primary which results in a much higher voltage (due to the turns and a little bit of theroy called V=L x (dI/dt) which is a little complicated for most unless they have excellent maths  :y ) being produced.

This gives a spark of many 10's of KV.

All very simple and the modern systems work on the same principle all be it with more coils and no distributor to distribute the spark to the plugs (distributor is repalced by electronic switches).

A few pointers:

1) The time that the points/electronic switch remain closed is reffered to as the 'dwell angle', this is actualy the time available to induce the magnetic field in the coil and in the case of mechanical systems (e.g. points) is related to the points gap at maximum opening and hence setting the gap is important (you can get dwell meters which measure the dwell). Electronic systems do this 'automaticaly' by monitoring the curret through the coil. If Dwell is to low, the spark energy will be less (less magnetic field 'stored' in the coil)

2) Testing coil output requires a special test plug with adjustable gap, when removed from a compression cycle, a spark plug will only need a few thousand volts to spark.....this is NOT a good test method......and the screwdriver to the head is also not a great science either!. As a guide, a spark will generaly jump around 1mm for every 1mm of gap!

3) Its a weekly moan of mine regarding 'Earths' as earths do not appear on cars and it is an incorrect term. A key reason why I harp on about it is because 'Earths' are very important and critical to safe operation of many electrical items and hence need care and respect. A vehicles body is a 0V point or a chassis return, to make it an earth you would need to connect it via a large metal cable to a large metal spike driven into the ground  :y. In summary, when working on a real earth (e.g. house wiring etc) you need to treat it with great repsect and care as the fault current it may have to handle can be 100's of amps plus even on a low current system where as a chassis retrun could be as simple as a screw through the body work which is man enough to carry the operating current of the device.

On the lawnmowers, they are probably a magneto ignition switch with a capacitor system.

WOW. Thats a lot of detail. thanks mate  :y :y :y

when testing coil output is that the thing that attaches to the end of a HT lead and you can see the spark outside the cylinder?

so dwell angle... that is really the period of time that the gap is open for.... therefore more of the charge can flow through the secondary winding? i presume its dwell ''angle'' as the nose of the cam opening the breaker points will determine the length of opening time??

 :y :y :y :y
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