Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Keith ABS]

 Is it worth a call to trading standards?

[Marks DTM Calib]

It wouldn't hold up in court, not a chance

So how come, all the people I dealt with at work, for tyres less than 1.6mm (using the exact same measuring process, and type approved device) went on to be convicted / lost trials?

I measured these tyre treads applying the same process, across the entire width at multiple points around the circumference of the tyres.

These days I am out of uniform / in the Detective arena on more complex cases - but I remember enough about my days on response and traffic to know how to determine (to a court standard) whether a tyre is below, or above the limit of 1.6mm. I’ve never had a court reject my evidence around tyres.

As I said - I don’t disagree with you, in that, I wasn’t comfortable with her presenting it with tyres that were close. But, I wasn’t given time to repair it before the test - and - fact is, the tyres were not remotely illegal, and categorically don’t constitute a “dangerous” MOT failure as they said …..

Well if you are so cock sure, appeal it, get your hand in your pocket and go for a civil case.

You will of course lose, as they will bring the accuracy of the measurement process into play, they will then also rip you a second one based on the role you are in and 'should know better' (as we all know that the legal minimum is far from a good place to be for a safe tyre in late winter/spring conditions)

Its your engineering basics you are struggling with, you place aboslute confidence in the thing you are doing the measurement with to be correct, fully trusting the reading it tells you. Given it can be +/- 0.25mm wrong, and now knowing that fact, THIS is where the mistake/error is.

Your measured value could be quite a bit less and anything measured at less than 1.85mm should be ringing alarm bells as could be lower than the minimum

This is the fundamental point I am trying to get across 

[YZ250]

Well, it would appear that this practice of what you experienced has been highlighted many times since the new mot rules came in to force. The report states that what they are doing is illegal, but the garages have been using it as a clause to refuse a customer the right to remove their vehicle for repair. Pushing the failure issue to one side, the refusal to let you have the vehicle back was a principle issue, and I'm not going to lie, I'm disappointed at the outcome, as they'll just continue to do the same to others until pulled up on it by someone who sticks to their guns. No offence intended.
The bit regarding driving the car away also includes trailering the car away if the fail is severe. 

But, despite the new MOT changes, the law states that garages have NO power to stop motorists from driving their car away - regardless of the severity of the MOT failure.


How new MOT rules mean you could get a £2,500 fine
Yet garages are using this clause against drivers, preventing them from leaving the premises without paying for the defects to be fixed on the spot - despite this being illegal.

Motorists don't have to have their vehicle fixed by the garage that did their MOT - and are fully within their rights to shop around for the best deal.

Here's what to do if your car fails its MOT
If a dangerous or major defect is detected, motorists are still able to have their car towed to a different garage if they find a cheaper price and the garage has no legal right to stop them - but it would be illegal to drive the vehicle, risking a fine, points and a potential ban.

Scrapcarcomparison.co.uk, the UK's biggest network of dealing with MOT failures and car write-offs, has issued the following advice if your car fails its MOT.

The comparison site said: "Garages are unable to prevent motorists from taking their car away.

[JamesV6CDX]

I think this is all getting a bit deep to be honest. Of course I’m not going to lodge a civil court case over an MOT result for some already borderline tyres. The cost of even the time investment is not worthwhile, and it would be a waste of everyone’s time.

But if I did, I would not seek to drag my occupation into it in any way, as said previously. In fact, I never bring up what I do - and never allow it to influence / feature in any personal / civil disputes. Lots of shiny new cops are quick to throw it into the mix, but 15 years experience and learning from those mistakes early in service teaches me that unless it’s life or death, work can be left at work.

I didn’t once mention work on this thread (until someone else did) - it’s always others that do. I sometimes find that a shame, because I’m just like all of the other members - a bloke on a car forum, who understandably has an occasional rant about an MOT tester! Sometimes I’d like it to just be taken for what it is

As work has been mentioned however, I will say that, Back when I was on patrol cars / traffic, I would have rarely written a ticket for a 1.4mm tyre, unless there were other aggravating features such as cord exposed on edges, or other serious defects. I’d have given them a slip (vehicle defect rectification scheme) giving them time to fix it. I was always extremely lenient with most things, and applied as much fairness, discretion, and benefit of the doubt as possible.

I never thought I’d say it but I’m pleased to be off traffic these days. I really enjoy the type of (often very rewarding) cases I deal with these days, and quite like not having to wear a uniform

 

[JamesV6CDX]

I'm not going to lie, I'm disappointed at the outcome, as they'll just continue to do the same to others until pulled up on it by someone who sticks to their guns. No offence intended.

No offence taken. But they had me by the knackers. I couldn’t drive it away knowing it had been declared “dangerous” on the MOT (even though I disagree it was dangerous)
 
I looked into a trailer. But the cost of it outweighed just paying the extra for Vauxhall to do the repairs. I also realised that although towing rules have changed, having passed my test after 97, the MAM would have exceeded what I can legally drive / pull (3.5t).

I’m not going to risk getting in trouble just to enforce a principle. So they had me totally over a barrel.

[Nick W]

Its your engineering basics you are struggling with, you place aboslute confidence in the thing you are doing the measurement with to be correct, fully trusting the reading it tells you. Given it can be +/- 0.25mm wrong, and now knowing that fact, THIS is where the mistake/error is.

Your measured value could be quite a bit less and anything measured at less than 1.85mm should be ringing alarm bells as could be lower than the minimum

This is the fundamental point I am trying to get across 

Where does that 0.25mm come from, and what does distance it relate to? Mitutoyo state their 0.01mm resolution digital calipers are good for a maximum error of 0.02mm, which is required to meet the American standard. A tool used for industry will be regularly calibrated to a published schedule. I have a cheapy digital caliper that was done because it was in my toolbox when the company equipment was calibrated.


What's happened here is that the Lifetime Free MOT has once again paid off for the dealer, because they've got a quick profitable job out of it for the cost of a lie that most people wouldn't know about. Personally, I would rather have paid somebody else to recover the car rather than give any cash to those oppsers.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Me too. In principle I would have taken any legal option that meant they didnt get a penny out of the job.
I have a history of cutting off my nose to spite my face on matters of principal.
Maybe why thats why Im perpetually skint. I dont do pragmatism. 
I would definitely be reporting them to trading standards.

[Marks DTM Calib]

As work has been mentioned however, I will say that, Back when I was on patrol cars / traffic, I would have rarely written a ticket for a 1.4mm tyre, unless there were other aggravating features such as cord exposed on edges, or other serious defects. I’d have given them a slip (vehicle defect rectification scheme) giving them time to fix it. I was always extremely lenient with most things, and applied as much fairness, discretion, and benefit of the doubt as possible.

You couldn't or it would risk being turned over, again, the accuracy of measurement (which works both ways) 

[Marks DTM Calib]

Its your engineering basics you are struggling with, you place aboslute confidence in the thing you are doing the measurement with to be correct, fully trusting the reading it tells you. Given it can be +/- 0.25mm wrong, and now knowing that fact, THIS is where the mistake/error is.

Your measured value could be quite a bit less and anything measured at less than 1.85mm should be ringing alarm bells as could be lower than the minimum

This is the fundamental point I am trying to get across 

Where does that 0.25mm come from, and what does distance it relate to? Mitutoyo state their 0.01mm resolution digital calipers are good for a maximum error of 0.02mm, which is required to meet the American standard. A tool used for industry will be regularly calibrated to a published schedule. I have a cheapy digital caliper that was done because it was in my toolbox when the company equipment was calibrated.

Tyre depth gauges are not digital calipers, they are tyre depth gauges, a quick read of the PCL website specs for them will show you just how inaccurate they are. (PCL being one of the better suppliers)

And calibration only checks that the measuring item is still within the original manufacturers spec, if the original spec is wide, it gets a new 'in cal' sticker.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Tyre threads.....     

[Nick W]

Tyre depth gauges are not digital calipers, they are tyre depth gauges, a quick read of the PCL website specs for them will show you just how inaccurate they are. (PCL being one of the better suppliers)

So you're saying that a digital tyre depth gauge uses an entirely different read and display mechanism than a common caliper? That they've cunningly fitted into a very similar housing? That seems unlikely.


And the couple I found listed as DVSA approved for the job claim accuracy of +/- 0.01mm, the same as the resolution which has I've always read that is a good rule of thumb for this sort of thing. As is using a tool that measures to hundredths of a mm when you need tenths.


As I'm not an MOT tester, I don't need to spend £60 on an approved gauge when the £6 clones will do a good enough job of measuring to decide if new tyres are needed.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Tyre depth gauges are not digital calipers, they are tyre depth gauges, a quick read of the PCL website specs for them will show you just how inaccurate they are. (PCL being one of the better suppliers)

So you're saying that a digital tyre depth gauge uses an entirely different read and display mechanism than a common caliper? That they've cunningly fitted into a very similar housing? That seems unlikely.


And the couple I found listed as DVSA approved for the job claim accuracy of +/- 0.01mm, the same as the resolution which has I've always read that is a good rule of thumb for this sort of thing. As is using a tool that measures to hundredths of a mm when you need tenths.


As I'm not an MOT tester, I don't need to spend £60 on an approved gauge when the £6 clones will do a good enough job of measuring to decide if new tyres are needed.

You are missreading the info, here is the PCL site (as its a decent representative):

https://www.pclairtechnology.com/digital-tyre-tread-depth-gauge-0-25mm-0-1

It has a READING accuarcy of 0.01mm (the digital bit) and a GAUGE accuracy of 0.2mm (the actual achieved measurement accuracy for the whole component)

Its one thing displaying a rediculous number of decimal places, and another to actually measure something 

[Doctor Gollum]

Mk1 eyeball tyre check process:

Is there a distinct boundary between the tread wear indicators and said tread?

No = drive straight to a tyre shop having phoned ahead.

Yes = can you feel it with a finger nail edge?

No = drive straight to a tyre shop having phoned ahead.

Yes = research tyres according to preference and budget and get it booked in.

As an aside, I had The Barge pre Motd a couple of days before going on holiday and about 6 weeks before it was due. Was told it would pass if they tested there and then but that the rear tyres needed replacing soon as they were fast approaching the wear indicators. (I knew this before presenting it).

After a discussion with the tester, it was decided that they ought to be OK for the 500 miles that I knew I would be covering before I could get them done. (flights/weekend/an appointment in Norwich). Whilst away I got it booked in for the Monday after my return. The tyres ended up being good* for 350 miles.

*Good being a euphemism for legal. They were noticeably less grippy from about 2.5mm and fell off a cliff in the last 500 miles.

Point being that you should err on the side of caution.

James had to pay some Stupid Tax for waiting for the fail. A quick word dropping it off could have seen tyres fitted before they tested it,  and therefore no issue.

It feels out of order because you felt pressured into the purchase, when in fact you knew full well that a pair of tyres were imminently required, and therefore not a surprise. At the end of the day, the car got a free MoT, and two new tyres that it needed, so you're probably still ahead on the deal

[Doctor Gollum]

The other issue here, and perhaps the bigger one, is that had they spoken to you rather than your wife, they might not have gone done the 'incredibly dangerous' route.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I have a digital tyre tread measurement gauge. It cost about £7 and works well enough but use it three times in exactly the same place and it will give 3 different readings.

Personally I would just drive the car away. I think the garage is suffering from 'delusional overreach' and should 'go f*uck themselves'. Exactly who do they think they are.

Once they have your car it their control they can effectively charge what they want......and they will especially on tyres where it pays to shop around.