Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: LC0112G on 16 March 2014, 20:04:23
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I think it probably is dead this time. C30XE Y reg Omega Elite Auto.
Driving up to the smoke on Saturday, comming of the M3 onto the M25 clockwise. As I was merging in I noticed the Red Oil Pressure lamp come on on the dash. This was accompanied by a loud tapping noise which was noticable over the heights of Agnetta and Frida at full blast so pulled over as soon as i could. The engine was running a bit lumpy and basically stalled as I stopped. The Amber oil level lamp was not on. Anyway, popped the bonnet and opened the oil filler cap. Seemed very hot and quite dry in there. Pulled the dipstick, but couldn't make out if there was an oil level on it.
I did have 5L of VX 15W40 with me, so I tipped in about 2L. Started the engine but the fuel pressure lamp stayed on, and it sounded very tappety. So I jumped to the conclusion of a serious problem thei the oil circuit - broken oil pump, of holed piston or bad head gasket leak. In an effort to get off the motorway I tipped in the rest of the oil started up and tried to drive on. The tapping was much much wors as I gently accelerated along the hard shoulder to regain a safe speed to rejoin the carrageway. The i looked in the rear view mirror. f*k me - a smoke trail the Red arrows would be proud of. So basically game over. Whilst waiting for recovery I looked under the car - oil was comming out of the back of the engine either focker covers, breathers or crankshaft oil seal. But it was also dripping from somewhere at the front of the engine on the off side.
I got the care recovered to a local Vauxhall Garage - Bedfont on the A30 near Heathrow. They're gonna do a quick inspection on Wednesday, but i've told them that unless it;s a simple fix It'll likely end up at the scrapyard. Whilst there today emptying out my stuff, I took a look at the dipstick, :o The oil level is now half way up the dipstick tube. Probably shouldn't have put all that oil in, and may explain the red arrows effect.
So - assuming it;s not just a faulty oil pressure switch - are there any common causes of oil pressure loss? The water is still clean and pink so I don't think it'll be oil cooler related.
Cheers
Malcolm
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The V6 has a fine strainer in the pick up pipe. Many (most?) Omegas have a build up of sludge in the sump which can migrate to the pick up and block it.
It would be a shame to scrap the car. Good V6 engines can be picked up for pocket money.
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Sorry to say but Vauxhall will more than like try to remove your pants....
Only ever changed 3 oil pumps on all the 6's I have worked on...... not saying its not possible but quite rare
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Hiya Malc - its Mr Granger....
bottom end failure is kinda the Vauxhall V6 engine's party piece. I've maybe changed ten units over the years due to big-end failure caused by oil pressure loss. Usually what happens is that the strainer gets blocked with bits of sump sealant or cam cover "O" rings.
On the positive side, they're actually very easy to change. I could give you a hand - its better than scrapping the car.
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Thanks guys,
So am I to conclude that by the time you hear the knocking the engine is likely to be FUBAR? Is there any point in instructing the garage to drop the sump, clean out the strainer/oil pick up, bolt back together and restart it in the hope that it was the lifters tapping due to loss of oil pressure - or is it almost gauranteed that the main/big ends are already knackered??
Sorry to say but Vauxhall will more than like try to remove your pants....
Yeah, I'm well aware of the usual abilities (or lack thereof) of the Vx dealer network to quickly, cheaply and correctly diagnose faults. Trouble is, when you're broken down on a motorway 130 miles from home in a place you don't know, your options are severly limited when the recovery driver wants to know where you want the car taken. As it stands I've authorised a £60 half hour inspection and told them that Im likley to scrap the car if repair costs are un-economic.
On the positive side, they're actually very easy to change. I could give you a hand - its better than scrapping the car.
Hi Stu, problem is the car is in London, so I've got the costs of repatriating it back to sunny Somerset first. The car is showing the first signs of rust in the wheel arches, and on the sills by the rubber door shut strips. It'll pass the MOT for a year or two think, but I'm not convinced this car is a keeper long term. There are probably parts on it that are worth salvaging - working CDR2015 sat nav (MID not CID) etc, but I doubt the costs of getting the car back from London will be covered. It's basic bangernomics - probably cheaper to buy a new car than try and repair this one, unless I can get away with just telling the dealer to clean out the strainer and nail it back together.
Cheers
Malcolm
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... unless I can get away with just telling the dealer to clean out the strainer and nail it back together.
Sounds to me like the engine has gone to meet its' maker. No mileage in spending out trying to get that to run again, after it's run for a significant time with no oil pressure IMHO.
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My son Ben (in a 2.0 manual petrol Omega) did a similar thing three years ago at Peasedown. Rang me, said his engine had stopped. I attended, engine cranked but rattled, found no oil on dipstick. I towed him home. I put oil in, it did start, but rattled horribly. I stripped for spares, driving it about my drive. Suddenly it went bang and a rod came out of the side of the crankcase - oil everywhere . The oil pressure warning light bulb had failed.
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Bugger! And you've only just changed the cam belt :(
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Next question then. Anyone reccomend a cheap car recovery company to get a car from near Heathrow down the M3, A303 to Yeovil in Somerset? I *think* I can hire a self drive recovery truck for about £100 + fuel, but it would mean taking a day off work to go get the car. It's about 115 miles one way, so 230 ish return. I've probably got till Wednesday to make a decision on what to do.
Bugger! And you've only just changed the cam belt :(
Yeah - and done the front wishbones plus two new tyres. Part of me is thinking why throw good money after bad, the rest is thinking at least I know what's good/bad about this one
Cheers
Malcolm
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I'd be interested in it, but couldn't get there until the middle of next week.
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Bugger! And you've only just changed the cam belt :(
Hi Andy. If that sympathy was meant for me, don't worry. Ben's wreck was three years ago. The wife's car, on which I changed the cam belt two weeks ago and turned the crank with cam belt off, is still running well. Like the wife, it seems indestructible.
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Bugger! And you've only just changed the cam belt :(
Hi Andy. If that sympathy was meant for me, don't worry. Ben's wreck was three years ago. The wife's car, on which I changed the cam belt two weeks ago and turned the crank with cam belt off, is still running well. Like the wife, it seems indestructible.
No, it was for Malcolm. He'd only just changed the cam belt in the last couple of weeks :'(
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Ok, garage have rung back. They have diagnosed a blown head gasket. Now I'm reluctant to say they're wrong, but IMHO.....
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Ok, garage have rung back. They have diagnosed a blown head gasket. Now I'm reluctant to say they're wrong, but IMHO.....
If it fired all the oil out of the exhaust, more likely to be a failed stem seal IMHO. Though if it was dripping, more likely a normal oil leak, eg oil cooler pipes.
Fact of the matter is it was driven without oil pressure, hence engine is no good IMHO :'(. And probably was before you managed to pull it up and put the extra oil in.
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Ok, garage have rung back. They have diagnosed a blown head gasket. Now I'm reluctant to say they're wrong, but IMHO.....
If it fired all the oil out of the exhaust, more likely to be a failed stem seal IMHO. Though if it was dripping, more likely a normal oil leak, eg oil cooler pipes.
Fact of the matter is it was driven without oil pressure, hence engine is no good IMHO :'(. And probably was before you managed to pull it up and put the extra oil in.
Yeah - never had one of these engines apart, but I doubt a CHG fault could cause enough oil pressure loss to cause the dash lamp to come on, unless it was already pi**ing oil out somewhere, or smoking like a steam train. It wasn't smoking before I stopped and put the extra 4-5L in. and the oil leaked and smoke after stopping at the side of the road was, IMHO, due to me (massivley) overfilling it.
So that brings us back to (the likely) oil starvation caused by a blocked strainer, which as you say, I'd expect to cause serious bottom end damage sooner rather than later.
Plan at the moment is to recover the car tomorrow, and do a cheap and cheerful sump off, strainer clean, nail back together and start her up over the weekend. If it sounds like a bag of spanners having done that, then plan B.
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IIRC the V6 oil pump run directly off the crankshaft using a drive dog have heard of cases of these wearing or shearing off on pump. Looks a pig to remove pump ,cambelt/tensioners/cam sprocket/backing plate off + main casting above sump if you are removing sump to check strainer & thats clear might be worth carrying on to remove pump saves reinstalling sump then having to remove again.
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IIRC the V6 oil pump run directly off the crankshaft using a drive dog have heard of cases of these wearing or shearing off on pump. Looks a pig to remove pump ,cambelt/tensioners/cam sprocket/backing plate off + main casting above sump if you are removing sump to check strainer & thats clear might be worth carrying on to remove pump saves reinstalling sump then having to remove again.
Haynes says you have to remove all the cam sprockets and the timing case to get the oil pump off/out. I think I'd prefer to get a new engine if it's not a simple sump & strainer clean.
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Ok Car is home and undercover. £98 for a days car transporter hire and £60 of fuel. I'm hoping to drain the oil and drop the sump on Saturday morning.
Question about the oil pickup/strainer. Can it be removed by just dropping the lower sump cover plate, or does the whole 'big' sump have to come off?
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No if I remember correctly just removed sump pan, strainers connected to bottom off oil pump by 2 bolts easy enough to remove dont forget new O ring on refitting :y
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yes - that's how you do it.
In reality, the sludge will be stuck in the cupped end of the pick-up which dangles in the oil, so you'd not really need to remove it.
I've heard also of the oil pump over-pressure valve sticking open, but this is a "pump-off" to get to.
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Ok, drained 9L :D of oil, and dropped the sump. This sump appears to have had a hard life with two huge creases/dents in it. Also - no sump gasket, just a bead of sealant - is that normal?
Anyhow, cleaned the sump up
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/IMG_8774.jpg)
..., and I think it's curtains for this engine ...
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/IMG_8775.jpg)
All the white gritty stuff i think is white metal off the bearings. It's got the texture of flaking paint. Then i found this...
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/IMG_8776.jpg)
..Lying in the bottom of the sump. I think it's a cam sprocket bolt. :o
Anyway, proceeded to remove the strainer - 4 bolts, one of which is hidden behind an oil return pipe, and a bit of a git to get at. Anyhow - strainer - blocked..
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/IMG_8777.jpg)
And with most of the blockages oiked out...
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/IMG_8779.jpg)
I'm still intending to nail it back together, but I reckon I know what to expect. Anyone got a spare X30SE auto engine for sale?
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So, couple of cam cover O rings and a load of silicone sealant. Looks like someone has done a bodge job on the cam covers at some point. :(
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Any good for you ? http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=121420.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=121420.0)
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Bolt looks like a conrod bearing cap bolt or off the upper ladder casting below crankshaft dunno how a cam sprocket bolt could get in
sump ? Either way looks like a dead engine hope I am wrong and it lives to fight another day hate to see another miggy meet its maker :'( :'(
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yes, sorry Malc - that's what most of them look like when you drop the sump.
the "O" ring is from the centre of the cam cover - dropped during a cam cover job no doubt.
the bolt is from the main bearing tie ladder and not a con-rod.
The engine could rescue with a crank re-grind, but I'm guessing that you'll probably just get another.
later engines had RTV as the sump gasket
oh and yes, you should drop the sump and empty the strainer from the 'new' engine, too
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Ok, finished cleaning out the strainer, and I got almost the same amount of sealant out in addition to that shown in the photo. I couldn't see any missing bolts, but you can't see much of the crank, ladder or con-rod ends with that guard plate thing in the way. Anyway, bolted everything back together, put about half of the dirty oil back in, and started up.
Then shut down, and opened all the doors of the garage to let the smoke out ::). Then re-started. Oil pressure is back, and at tickover it sounds reasonable. However, even at low revs there is that distinct death rattle tapping.
I'm pretty pi55ed off that I didn't know about the strainer getting blocked by crud. Would be a fairly simple job to inspect and clean once every few years - I think it would only take about an hour or two. Now this engine is toast - good enough to drive to the scrapyard and that's about it.
For comparison, here is a photo of the X30X strainer off my car against that from a Carlton - well a sort of carlton ;D
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/IMG_8782.jpg)
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How many miles has the engine done. Should we all be doing routine maintaince in this area?
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How many miles has the engine done.
From memory, 210K ish. It did have a full rebuild back in the mid noughties - at about 90K IIRC - due to a timing belt snap/roller collapse. Rebuild was by a Vx main dealer. But I'm not sure milage is relavent here - what matters is the amount of crud in the sump,
Should we all be doing routine maintaince in this area?
IMHO - if this is a known issue with the X30 engine - Yes - though you probably only need to do it once every several years. I've owned 4 omegas, and have done a full service including Auto ATF filter change on every one at the first opportunity. I'll be adding a strainer clean to my list of things to do from now on. There is no way of knowing for sure what a previous owner has (or has not) done. If they've spread silicon sealant everywhere to try and fix oil leaks, then it doesn't seem to take much for it to end up in the sump and cause problems.
So, next time you do an oil changem drop the sump, look for any debris in the sump pan and oik out any crud in the strainer. Should be do-able in an hour or so, but check what sort of sump gasket or sealer you need in order to put humpty back together again - seems to depend on engine number. If you start findng strange things (swarf/bolts) in the sump, then firther investigation is required.
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My V6 is due a oil/filter change next month now on 89K so thing I will now add strainer clean to job.By the way do you know the size of O ring seal to the pump body,MY 03- 52 plate so is it sealent or gasket ?
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I didn't bother unbolting the strainer when I checked mine. I reasoned that it introduced a load more work AND the risk that it might cause a new problem.
I didn't find enough crud to worry me but I did wipe or scrape all the surfaces I could reach just in case.
Mine has done 187K
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Silicon sealer in the strainer pick up was the reason why there was a reduction in oil pressure on her Smart ..... that needed new big end shells too.
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Ive had the sump off mine a few times, and the strainer has always been spotless. So probably depends on genuine history - if unknown or dubious, maybe worth checking.
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Sumat I have never thought of doin B4 or since I had mine so better to be safe than sorry. On 1st oil change I did housing was a pig to remove when I did remove it filter did,nt look like it had been done for yonks probably due to difficulty of removing cap it had collapsed and fell to bits when removed did a further oil + filter change 1 month later both were black again not what I would expect after such a short period so for future owners I would say add this procedure to your 1st service not a huge job for peace of mind.
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My V6 is due a oil/filter change next month now on 89K so thing I will now add strainer clean to job.By the way do you know the size of O ring seal to the pump body,MY 03- 52 plate so is it sealent or gasket ?
EPC says sump gasket p/n 90469379 up to and including engine number 08300418. Then from engine number 08300419 onwards its sealant p/n 90543772. I expect yours is the sealant type, but check your V5 log book for the engine number. The strainer to oil pump seal is p/n 90411017 if you do unbolt the strainer.
I didn't bother unbolting the strainer when I checked mine. I reasoned that it introduced a load more work AND the risk that it might cause a new problem.
I agree - don't unbolt the strainer. If crud has got past the strainer gauze then next stop is the oil pump and oil filter so there is not much to be gained by unbolting it.
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:y :y sealent it is, so will just inspect & clean with carb or brake cleaner .
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there's no physical difference - they simply deleted the gasket and went RTV instead
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And TIS has an instruction stating all engines to use the sealant on refurb.
Not a common issue at all, you have seen the result of some very poor spanner work in the past which has sadly lost you your engine. Now people know why we say to use the cam cover sealant only where required and not to slap it on every where.
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..... and not to slap it on every where.
Those that do are normally using the instant/silicon gasket alongside the proper gasket. :y
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..... and not to slap it on every where.
Those that do are normally using the instant/silicon gasket alongside the proper gasket. :y
.. and they often "advise" that it's a waste of money buying the proper GM sealant and use bath tub caulk instead. ::)
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Ok - was going to start work on getting the engine out tonight, but I'm too angry after the shambles at Huish Park this afternoon to risk going near any (more) spanners. So manjana.
Vx want £1750+vat for a "remanufactured" exchange engine :'(. I think I can get a scrapyard lump for £100 ish, but I don't have anything suitable to transport it so would need to hire a van plus fuel to go fetch - so another £100 ish. On the plus side another complete engine would give me loads of spare parts - including a new crank should my one be fubar.
Anyway, been thinking about the relative merits of rebuilding vs replacing. Once the engine is out it won't take long to strip the bottom end down. What new parts are we looking at?
1) Main bearings - £40 ish
2) Big Ends - £40 ish
3) Main sump gasket - £15 ish.
4) Crankshaft oil seal - already got one.
5) Con rod and main bolts?
What else do I need to cost in? Obviously I'll need a bigger swear box.
It's had a recent timing belt, rollers, waterpump and cam covers. I suspect I'll have to remove the timing belt, so will need to buy or scrounge the timing alignment tool again. Do the cams need to come out? Or can you do a bottom end with the cams still in? I don't want to remove either head.
Cheers
Malcolm
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I take it you are confident there is no top end damage to cam bearings,pistons,rings,valve stems etc also more than likely the crank journals are scored so will it need a regrind ? these problems might not be so apparent straight away but the damage will probably shorten the usable life of the engine in the long run if it was me it would be a complete strip down for peace of mind only time & the cost of a gasket set + seals extra.
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I take it you are confident there is no top end damage to cam bearings,pistons,rings,valve stems etc also more than likely the crank journals are scored so will it need a regrind ? these problems might not be so apparent straight away but the damage will probably shorten the usable life of the engine in the long run
I'm confident of nothing. I think the engine has been run for less than 2 minutes with no oil pressure. Others may disagree, but I doubt piston or ring damage will occur in this timescale. I can look at the crank journals whilst doing the bearings. I can also lift the cam covers and take a peek at the cam caps. I've got some plastigauge. Stem seals are a risk though.
if it was me it would be a complete strip down for peace of mind only time & the cost of a gasket set + seals extra.
If this car were a keeper I might agree, but I don't think it is. I think perhaps 2 more years before the tinrot gets it. I have got one CHG and a new set of lifters somewhere, but if the heads came off I'd have to budget for new chg bolts and a flat check/skim too.
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Ok today's progress,drained the oil and water. Removed the bagpipes. Then the source of the exhaust smoke became apparant. The throttle butterflies were swimming in oil. Difficult to tell if it had filled up from the manifold or bagpipe ends, but I hope it's been sucked up into the inlet manifold via the breathers, which were also swimming in oil.
Anyway, continued and removed the throttle bodies, EGR, IACV, plenium, aux belt, header tank, air-box, battery, secondary air injection pipework, and electrical cable ducting & fuel injection manifold. That's as much as I've ever had apart on an Omega before.
Tonights homework is to read the Haynes manual before entering territory unknown.
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Ok, nearly ready to hoist away and get the engine out. However, couple of questions first.
1) How many bolts are there securing the gearbox/AT to the back of the block/sump? I've found 4 small bolts from bell housing to sump, and 2 bigger bolts both on the passenger side at about the 9 o'clock position. I can't find any on the drivers side. From memory the Straight 6 Cartons/Sennys have other big bolts - in about the 10, 11, 1 and 2 o'clock positions.
2) Never done an auto before - is it better to separate the torque converter from the flexi plate (as described in the Haynes manual), or can you just take the torque converter with the engine as it slides off the gearbox splines?
Cheers
Malcolm
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Unbolt the torque converter from the flex plate and leave it with the gearbox - otherwise you can damage the seal and bushing where the TC nose runs in the gearbox, and this will cause fluid leakage. You might also distort the TC.
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Unbolt the torque converter from the flex plate and leave it with the gearbox - otherwise you can damage the seal and bushing where the TC nose runs in the gearbox, and this will cause fluid leakage. You might also distort the TC.
Ta. 6 more bolts to find then.
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Unbolt the torque converter from the flex plate and leave it with the gearbox - otherwise you can damage the seal and bushing where the TC nose runs in the gearbox, and this will cause fluid leakage. You might also distort the TC.
Ta. 6 more bolts to find then.
I think, on the V6, these are accessible through a rubber bung you can remove just behind the sump - i.e. central, and at the lowest point of the bellhousing facing the front of the driveplate. Once they are out, remove the rubber bung on the other side of the driveplate and prise the 2 apart to ensure the torque converter is free of the driveplate (it will move backwards towards the gearbox a little).
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I'm planning on a trip down in a couple of weeks Malc.......
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Horrrraaaayyyy, the lump is out. And the bonus is that the V6 lump fits on my Rich Brunt Straight 6 engine stand.
Started stripping it down - and learnt a few new things...
1) Most exhaust manifold studs unscrew from the head rather than releasing their nuts.
2) The dip stick tube is too close to the front stud to get the manifold off.
3) No matter how maticulous you are, there will always be even more oil and water hiding in channels within the lump waiting to splurge out on you when you least expect it.
4) The screws holding the DIS plate to the back of the head strip really easyily.
5) Your swear box is always too small no matter how big it is.
I've left the engine with the sump cover off overnight to try and drain out any last dregs of oil. Tomorrow, remove the large sump casting and inspect the mains and big ends. I may even treat you all to some photos of the carnage.
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While your lump is out, can you do me a favour and see how the dipstick tube is held in? There is one bolt that holds the top to head, but how is it held at bottom?
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While your lump is out, can you do me a favour and see how the dipstick tube is held in? There is one bolt that holds the top to head, but how is it held at bottom?
Had a look yesterday whilst trying to get the exhaust manifold off. One bolt at the top - the same one that holds the lifting eye. I think the bottom end is just a push fit through the hole in the block with an O ring to seal. I'll have a look to see if any sealant/bond is involved.
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My money is on at least one O ring, given how it turns easily enough...
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Ok, some mucky photos of the old girl for you to drool over :)
First up, where the donkey lives...
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8784.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8785.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8786.jpg)
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Next some engine on a stand pictures, for reference.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8787.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8789.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8790.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8791.jpg)
And a view of the dip-stick tube for TheBoy
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8792.jpg)
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So off with the cam covers, and a peek inside
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8793.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8794.jpg)
Nothing too horific - cam lobes worn on the tips, but it is a 210K mile engine. Then whilst trying to remove the oil cooler from the channel I spotted an optional extra fitted to the engine.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8796.jpg)
See It? An extra inlet manifold bridge bolt jammed in under the head. Anyway - extracted it and then removed the oil cooler unions at in the channel, and then went to the other end..
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8814.jpg)
Managed to get one of the pipes undone - but I can't get in to the rear one with a spanner. So abandoned that idea for now and continued with something else.
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So next step, lift all the cam caps one by one to see what they look like. The cam caps look Ok to me...
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8803.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8809.jpg)
However, the camshaft bearing surfaces I'm not so sure about.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8799.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8804.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8805.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8807.jpg)
The all look dull, with a mottled grey appearance, rather than polished and uniform. Not sure what to make of it. Anyway, worry about it later, apply some graphogen and bolt it all back together snugly.
Bottom end pictures to follow, after tea - Chicken Rogan Josh with boiled rice, naan bread and Onion Bajhees, all washed down with a bottle of Rioja.
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So next step, lift all the cam caps one by one to see what they look like. The cam caps look Ok to me...
However, the camshaft bearing surfaces I'm not so sure about.
The all look dull, with a mottled grey appearance, rather than polished and uniform. Not sure what to make of it. Anyway, worry about it later, apply some graphogen and bolt it all back together snugly.
Bottom end pictures to follow, after tea - Chicken Rogan Josh with boiled rice, naan bread and Onion Bajhees, all washed down with a bottle of Rioja.
How does the "fingernail test" feel?
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How does the "fingernail test" feel?
If you mean did they feel scored/pitted, then no they didn't. However, not sure it's relavent. I'm waiting till after the 9 O'Clock watershead to post up the bottom end x-rated horror show :-[
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Great pictures , thanks for posting :y
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Spin the engine over, and with the sump cover removed you are greeted by the following.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8817.jpg)
A closer view of the offending pick up strainer.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8815.jpg)
Undo all the upper sump to block retaining bolts, and after a few light taps with a rubber mallet the sump comes away to reveal...
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8818.jpg)
So 2Woody wins the "guess where the bolt in the sump came from" competition...
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8821.jpg)
Remove the sump baffle to reveal the bottom end strengthenign ladder
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8822.jpg)
Still nothing too alarming. Undo all the remaining bolts on the ladder and lift it off.
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Some of the ladder bolts are actually the main baring retainer cap bolts. So with the ladder off you can lift off the main baring caps. This means you can see the lower half of the barings.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8826.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8827.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8828.jpg)
There is signs of wear, but it doesn't look that bad to me - this is a 210K mile engine remember. I didn't take the rear baring off - can't actually - I can't get the flexi plate undone. But i see no reason to suspect it'll be any worse than the other three.
So what to the main baring crank journals look like?
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8832.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8833.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8834.jpg)
Again, nothing too worrying. However, from here on it's not for the squemish. You have been warned :o
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So lets take a look at the big ends. Rotate the crank (I've stilll got the timing belt on the front of the engine) so 5 and 6 are accessible. Undo the con rod bolts on #6 and remove the cap. F***. The bearing shell has spun. Prize it apart, and remove it. :-X
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8835.jpg)
Continue down the engine removing all the big ends. Most of the big ends have play in them - you can waggle them back and forwards on the crank. Big end cap 3 comes out looking like this - chunks of swarf stuck to it.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8840.jpg)
Once all the big ends are out, line them up for a team photo. :-X
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8844.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8846.jpg)
Those of you with an O level in counting may notice a problem. How many pairs of shells are there in the photo. And how many should there be? The answer is that there was no sign of big end #2. This is what the crank journal looks like.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8841.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/x30xe/IMG_8842.jpg)
Big end #2 appears to have been completly destroyed - either melted or reduced to swarf. No wonder the engine was knocking. Most of the surviving bearings had started to spin. I think this crank is going to need a bit more than a good polish to save it.
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Wow,thats some damage,looks like a complete crank regrind and new shells,must have been on its way out for a while then :(
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Wow,thats some damage,looks like a complete crank regrind and new shells,must have been on its way out for a while then :(
It doesn't take long to destroy the big end bearings if the oil stops while the engine is under load :'(
If you are on the motorway when the oil light comes on you probably won't look down until you either hear a change in engine note or feel the engine tighten up - by that time the shells are already scrap :( if you coast to the hard shoulder you may get away with a polish and new big end shells. Drive to the next exit and you will suffer the same as LC0112G :'(
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I'll have a spare crank and some, although not a full set of, con rods to replace your spun-bearing items.
This is usual fare for these - every engine I've stripped ( maybe twelve ) has been in some form of big-end failure,
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I'll have a spare crank and some, although not a full set of, con rods to replace your spun-bearing items.
This is usual fare for these - every engine I've stripped ( maybe twelve ) has been in some form of big-end failure,
Stu,
Some of the guys on the ABS forum have said it's a common-ish problem with the engines in the Saab too. The plan at the moment is to go fetch a replacement engine from Guilford next Saturday. That should get me enough bits to get the car back on the road again, although it will take me till the Easter weekend to do the work.
I did consider just re-building the bottom end, but I can't see any way to do it properly without taking the heads off too, at which time you're into full rebuild territory. So I'll probably just strip this engine down, keep the re-usable parts for spares and scrap the rest. Whilst an engine is still running and in the car I'd subscribe to the "if it aint broke dont fix it" philosophy, but now it's out I'd end up replacing everything - oil-cooler, thermostat, oil pump, etc, etc. There is a 3.0 V6 in the Clay Pidgeon scrap yard. Trouble is, it's still in the car (engine under the bonned, heads in the boot), and there are 3 other cars piled on top of it, so getting the required parts out is, shall we say, a challenge.
If you're passing, or in the area drop me a PM and I'll arrange access to the bat-cave if you want to come and have a laugh ;) I'm out this week on Tuesday and next week from Mon-Wed though.
Cheers
Malcolm
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Ok,
Picked up the new engine last weekend, and ordered a few new bits which arrived on Thursday, so today started stripping down the new engine to replace a few bits and pieces. Never simple is it. :'(
Started to replace the thermostat, and couldn't get the pipe to separate. I began to think i was going to have to take the cam sprockets off and remove the timing case. However, after much effing and blinding it finally let go and the cause became apparant. There is some orange sealant goo in there as well as the two O rings that are shown on EPC. So Question number 1 - is there supposed to be any sealant goo in there? If there is, what's the Vx P/n? Odds on I haven't ordered it, and the local Vx dealer won't have it.
Second problem - the plan was to do a timing belt swap whilst I'm in there. The rollers and tensioners on the old engine had only done 2-3K miles. So took it all off, and tried to fit it to the new engine. Trouble is, new engine has the 'other' sort of tensioner plate. So I swapped the rollers onto the existing backing plate (relaining the existing spacer and bolt- Question 2 - I assume this is Ok?
Hopefully tomorrow will be a bit more straightforward.
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Just two seals IIRC, no sealant. :y
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Just two seals IIRC, no sealant. :y
correct. :y
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...
So I swapped the rollers onto the existing backing plate (relaining the existing spacer and bolt- Question 2 - I assume this is Ok?
.......
Yes! :y
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Ok, top end and timing stuff all back together. Then started on the bottom end. Stripped off both the lower and upper sumps, only to discover that this is the earlier upper sump which needs a gasket, and of course I hadn't ordered one. So down Vx again this lunchtime. I therefore spent the weekend cleaning the sump and other easily accessible bottom end parts.
I've just been looking at the HowTo's etc. Haynes seems to be saying the upper sump sealant should be P/n 15-03-298, and you spread it in two arcs inside and outside the rubber sump gasket, plus sploges on the oil pump and rear main bearing joins. That P/n doesn't come up in my copy of EPC, either as an Opel or Vx part number.
The reply here http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=67874.msg951922#msg951922 says to use the grey oil cooler sealant, which is P/n 93165267. EPC says to use 90543772, which my dealer says has been superceeded to 93165267. So some agreement there at least. Trouble is, 93165267 comes in an 80ml tube and I doubt 80 ml will be enough to follow the pattern shown in Haynes.
So has anyone done their bottom sump recently - and how many tubes of grey goo do I need?
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.....
So has anyone done their bottom sump recently - and how many tubes of grey goo do I need?
Just one ..... it's a mini version of a bathroom sealant type tube for use in a mastic gun :y
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Yes, one is more than enough.
As for bottom end failure, only ever seen it following oil starvation which only occurs due to 'other' issues.
The bottom end bearings I have seen all show some light dulling from running and the odd dragged spec which I suspect is from debris floowingmanufacture but, nothing else.
Hence I dont prescribe to the 'bottom end wear' statements above for all the power units as I have only ever observed exactly what I expect for a mass produced engine of this type.
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Just one ..... it's a mini version of a bathroom sealant type tube for use in a mastic gun :y
Yes, one is more than enough.
Ok - Dealer actually has some more in stock, so I bought another tube just in case. I'm expecting you two to contribute to the swear box fund though if one isnt enough though ;D
As for bottom end failure, only ever seen it following oil starvation which only occurs due to 'other' issues.
The bottom end bearings I have seen all show some light dulling from running and the odd dragged spec which I suspect is from debris floowingmanufacture but, nothing else.
Hence I dont prescribe to the 'bottom end wear' statements above for all the power units as I have only ever observed exactly what I expect for a mass produced engine of this type.
Not sure what bottom end wear statements you're refering to, but the only bearings I've got that made me think "Ar5e, thats FUBAR then" were the big end ones. I did eventually find #2 big end bearing - welded to the crank journal. I managed to chisel the two halves apart and extract it. It's a bit worse than light dulling and a few dragged spect though ;D
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I'll have a spare crank and some, although not a full set of, con rods to replace your spun-bearing items.
This is usual fare for these - every engine I've stripped ( maybe twelve ) has been in some form of big-end failure,
:o
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I should qualify a bit.....
over the years, I've stripped and rebuilt 12 Omega B V6 engines. In each case, the big ends were compromised to the extent that the bearing surface had completely worn away to expose the copper/brass substrate structure. I've yet to strip one where this hasn't happened.
None of the corresponding main bearings had been worn to that extent.
yes, of course the cause behind this is oil starvation and not the design of the engine
This is to be compared against the other 150 or so engines that I've rebuilt, which show a more normal bearing failure pattern across different types.
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Ok, upper and lower sumps re-fitted. Next problem...
I can't remember where the engine earth wire connects. I'm fairly sure it threads down the back of the cam belt cover, and then bolts to the front face of the block somewhere close to the water pump. But I'm stuffed if i can see where it came from. Anyone got a photo?
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....
Anyone got a photo?
RobG!!!!!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Ok almost there. Would have finished yesterday, but ran out of carb cleaner and kitchen towel to clean all the oil out of the breathers, throttle bodies and plenium.
The engine earth attaches to the air con bracket, just above the A/C pump.
There is a place reserved in hell for the designers at Russelheim. I thought the carlton was bad, but the omega is another level of incompetent design. The following is a list of things that took far, far longer than they should, so as a heads up for anyone doing the job..
1) Attaching the water pipes to the back of the engine when the engine is already in. The top hose onto the coolant bridge is Ok, but the bottom one onto the spur in the main coolant pipe is another matter. Getting mole grips in there to compress the spring clip is a right game.
1a) Forgot - the three earth wires onto the side of the DIS mounting bracket. FFS.
2) Passenger side engine to radiator water hose - for the love off god, fit this to the engiine before putting the engine in. 2 hours it took me. The spring clip refused to go over the bulge in the hose where the metal lip on the pipe end is, and you can't get in/under the head to fit the clip first. I was about to give up and fit a jubilee clip when I finally found the right combination of pliers to ge the clip in.
3) The air con compressor. It won't clear the mounting bracket/subframe with the pipework connected, and doing up the pipework in-situe is difficult. How you're supposed to make a clean job of it is beyond me.
4) The radiators. Where to start. The A/C rad (well the drier bottle part) doesn't clear the front fans, so they have to come out. And the distance between the chassis rails is less than the width of the main rad so it's difficult to get it in. I also had to take the rad-fan off the back to fit a broken bagpipe A/V mount. Fitting this back to the rad in the car is almost impossible. There are just 2 screws and a plastic lug, but getting the plastic lug to engage was impossible. And once everything is back in, you've got the joy of connecting the bottom electrical plug to the rad.
5) Whoever signed off on that snake pit of tubes infront of the engine wants a kicking. Water pumps, air pumps, air con gubbins, you couldn't make it any more of a mess if you tried. With it all out, it looks like there is loads of room to fit a V10/V12.
6) When fitting the spin on oil filter, fill it up with oil first to help prime the pump. But, remember to take some paper cloth with you under the car when trying to spin it on. Rubber gloves slip on the outside of the oily filter otherwise, so by the time you've spun it on, any oil that was in the filter will be all over you.
Anyhow, cranked it over yesterday with the injectors disconnected, and I've got oil pressure. So tonight it's just clean and re-fit the breathers and throtle bodies and take it out for a spin. What could possibly go wrong.
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We wait with baited breath :y
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Malcom, as always your unique way of putting things has me in stitches :y
fingers crossed it all runs well :y
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We wait with baited breath :y
Well, it started. Didn't start first time, but that might be unfair coz I suppose the fuel rail would have taken a few seconds to pressurise properly. Eventually it did start - to the noise of a very noisy lifter tapping away, and an awfull lot of smoke from the exhaust. The lifter finally shut up after about 10 minutes running, at which time I noticed a water leak.
10 minutes of faffing with the passenger side top hose revealed that it wasn't sealing properly on the rad. So a new jubelee clip, and that was sorted. Another 10 minute run, and most of the smoke from the drivers side exhaust pipe had subsided, but it's still smoking from the passenger side exhaust. So next step is a blat on my local test track...
Except, the tax is up at the end of the month, and I couldn't find my MOT stuff. Didin't want to risk getting stopped by the rozzers so decided I'd better delay the test run till tomorrow so that I can chect it does have a current MOT. Why on earth can't you check the expiry date of an MOT online without the V5 ? Anyhow, the DVLA site appears to be allowing me to renew the tax, so i guess the MOT is valid at least till Thursday.
Initial impressions are I'm not very happy with the idle quality - seems quite lumpy at tickover, and it also attempts to stall at the far ends of the steering lock. And it's still noticibly smoking (or steaming?) from the passenger side exhaust after perhaps 30 minutes running. I think I may do a hydrocarbon test before my test run.
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Awesome updates here mate and after stripping down a top end i know your frustrations.
Re the hose clamp on the passenger side... if it gave me that much trouble i'd have left it in situ and got a jubille clip on there.
I've read most of this today..... so apologies if i've got it wrong.....
did you have the heads off? or did you buy a complete engine? Best thing i did with the top end was soak lifters upside down in oil over night (turned out to be about a week in the end lol). When mine restarted it was quiet as anything and sounded like a real improvement.
is the exhaust leak from the manifold?
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did you have the heads off? or did you buy a complete engine?
Bought the complete engine off RobseyMV6. He'd already done all the top end work, including cylinder head gaskets so I didn't want to disturb any of the new stuff. I did take off the exhaust manifolds and replace the studs and nuts though, and there were new exhaust manifold gaskets on it so no reason to doubt what Robsey told me. He did say he oiled the cylinder walls before re-assembly for anti-corrosion, so that will go some way to explaining the smoke.
Best thing i did with the top end was soak lifters upside down in oil over night (turned out to be about a week in the end lol). When mine restarted it was quiet as anything and sounded like a real improvement.
Yeah, but as stated I didn't want to remove ther cam covers, and cams, and sprockets if they had only just been put back together. I did drop the small and big sumps and remove the crank cover, but it all looked quite good so I didn't disturb the main or big end bearings. Just cleaned everything up and re-fitted with new gaskets and Vx grey goo.
is the exhaust leak from the manifold?
I don't think there is an exhaust leak. The smoke/steam? I'm talking about is out of the passenger side tail pipe - and only the passenger side. I think that points towards somethong funny in the passenger side bank of the engine, although it is possibly just oil residue. Should know more tonight when I'm out for my first test run. MOT expires on 2nd May, so a few days yet to run the engine in :-)
I changed all the sensors (DIS, crank and knock x2) off the old engine onto the new except the cam sensor. No trouble codes at the moment, but I might swap the old cam sensor over too just incase that's responsible for the lumpy running at tickover. If that doesn't cure it then I'll swap the injector manifold headers incase it's a sticky/lazy injector. After that, if the hydrocarbon test is all clear then I'll be scratching my head (and getting splinters no doubt).
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Hmmmm.
Did a short 2 mile test after work. Lots of smoke on light and medium acceleration - light smoke on tickover and coasting. Not condeming the new engine just yet, but starting to look like possible piston ring issues. Had to abort the test due to heavy traffic.
Just done a blink test, and I've now got some codes :
12 Normal
57 Idle Air Control Voltage Low
21 Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) Voltage High
129 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Feedback Voltage Low
31 No Engine RPM Signal
12 & 31 are normal on a stopped engine I believe, but it seems strange to have 3 seemingly discrete sensors all packed up - I'm wondering is there a fuse common to all of these? I suppose this might explain the lumpy tickover running.
And either the battery has died in sympathy, or something is drawing a lot of current.
Now 10:30 pm so I'm gonna look for blown fuses and go and give it some aggro.
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The smoke from any engine rebuild is normal for new gaskets burning/beding in, as I said I dropped 3in1 oil on pots while I was rebuilding heads, had this before with tail smoke, will clear!! Do take it out but don't give it hell as brand new head gaskets to seal and look after good 100 miles first!!!! Block is fine!! You have a good engine there!!
I'd never sell something with a problem!
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The smoke from any engine rebuild is normal for new gaskets burning/beding in, as I said I dropped 3in1 oil on pots while I was rebuilding heads, had this before with tail smoke, will clear!! Do take it out but don't give it hell as brand new head gaskets to seal and look after good 100 miles first!!!! Block is fine!! You have a good engine there!!
I'd never sell something with a problem!
You're probably right - the old engine was smoking like a steam train so it's probably not just your 3-in-1, but an exhaust full of old oil too. Tonights test run was fairly good. No obvious red-arrows trail at speeds up to 70MPH, and after a 30 minute run the only significant smoke was from under the bonnet. I'll need to get back underneath to see if its oil, or just assembly grease and cleaner residue burning off. I did a sniffy-do-dah test on the header tank afterwards, and the dye stayed green so CHG seems good.
The trouble codes don't cause an EML lamp to come on. On thinking about it, when I was building up oil pressure I did it by cranking over with the plenium off, and the injector loom disconnected. That means that the EGR, TPS and IACV were all disconnected, so I wonder if these are left over trouble codes from that. If so - how do you clear the stored trouble codes? Is it disconnect the battery for 30 minutes like on Carltons/Sennys, or does it need Tech2?
I've put a fully charged battery on it tonight - will see if it's still ok tomorrow.
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Needs a suitable code reader. Disconnecting the battery won't work.
Not sure if the usual post y2k obd2 readers will work on pre facelift ecu's though. Maybe someone will confirm. The codes may well be historic. But clearing them with a code reader and seeing if they return, and are hence considered current, would be the normal way.
Rumour has it some codes clear themselves after a number of fault free starts though.
Good job btw. Excellent read. :y
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I would say those codes would light the EML if they were present. My guess is that cranking it with things disconnected raised those codes.
If the cats and exhaust system have been drowned in oil it will take a long drive to get everything up to temperature for long enough to burn all the old oil off. I'd give it a bit more time before condemning anything. :y
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Usual cause of poor idle is an airleak somewhere and I have also seen it as a result of the spark plugs not being connected correctly on the 2-4-6 bank (as the connections are not so obvious)
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Usual cause of poor idle is an airleak somewhere and I have also seen it as a result of the spark plugs not being connected correctly on the 2-4-6 bank (as the connections are not so obvious)
I did wonder if I'd managed to mess the DIS connections up, and of course you can't really see them once the engine is in. However, I did check and double check when putting it all back together using Lizzies diagram, so unless she needs a slapping 8) I'd imagine thiat getting the ignition lead order wrong would lead to a fairly nasty missfire, and with an MOT on Thursday lunchtime the emmisions will be off the scale.
I did give the plenium a quick squirt of carb cleaner around the throttle bodies and IACV, but that made no difference to the idle. I'm gonna give it another run tonight to see if/how things have settled down, but I suppose it could also be plug fouling on the oil that's been burning off. Of course as you know removing the passenger side plugs for inspection is a trivial task on the V6 :-X
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.... Of course as you know removing the passenger side plugs for inspection is a trivial task on the V6 :-X
No more difficult than the plugs on a straight six ;) ;)
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is it prefacelift? tech 1 has a cartridge for early omega which will clear codes, :y
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is it prefacelift? tech 1 has a cartridge for early omega which will clear codes, :y
No - post faclift, 2001 Y reg. Have tried my Tech 1 + MSC - no go.
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.... Of course as you know removing the passenger side plugs for inspection is a trivial task on the V6 :-X
No more difficult than the plugs on a straight six ;) ;)
Depends which Straight 6 ;D
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.... Of course as you know removing the passenger side plugs for inspection is a trivial task on the V6 :-X
No more difficult than the plugs on a straight six ;) ;)
Depends which Straight 6 ;D
(http://images.classiccars.co.uk/c/467/297/classifieds/6/8/689ba30ecc35e368b86e17767546597c.jpg)
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...
Depends which Straight 6 ;D
There's always one! ;D ;D ;D
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. ....
Depends which Straight 6 ;D
(http://images.classiccars.co.uk/c/467/297/classifieds/6/8/689ba30ecc35e368b86e17767546597c.jpg)
And another one ;D ;D ;)
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. ....
Depends which Straight 6 ;D
(http://images.classiccars.co.uk/c/467/297/classifieds/6/8/689ba30ecc35e368b86e17767546597c.jpg)
And another one ;D ;D ;)
Hmmmmmmmmmmm,Vitesse me like 8)
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. ....
Depends which Straight 6 ;D
(http://images.classiccars.co.uk/c/467/297/classifieds/6/8/689ba30ecc35e368b86e17767546597c.jpg)
And another one ;D ;D ;)
Hmmmmmmmmmmm,Vitesse me like 8)
Confession time - it isn't mine - it was the first picture of a really nice Vitesse that Google Search turned up...
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is it prefacelift? tech 1 has a cartridge for early omega which will clear codes, :y
No - post faclift, 2001 Y reg. Have tried my Tech 1 + MSC - no go.
Hmmm, does it come up with unsupported ecu, or just no comms? Although the ECU did change around 1997, I would have thought it was near enough for Tech1/Tech1a to accept it :-\
Note, my experience is more with Tech2 than Tech1. In fact, last Tech1 I saw was Omegatoy's when it needed soldering, and that was before he moved :o
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is it prefacelift? tech 1 has a cartridge for early omega which will clear codes, :y
No - post faclift, 2001 Y reg. Have tried my Tech 1 + MSC - no go.
Hmmm, does it come up with unsupported ecu, or just no comms? Although the ECU did change around 1997, I would have thought it was near enough for Tech1/Tech1a to accept it :-\
Note, my experience is more with Tech2 than Tech1. In fact, last Tech1 I saw was Omegatoy's when it needed soldering, and that was before he moved :o
wasnt the soldering on the lead?
still working well here, quite handy it does frontera astra carlton and all the others as well here :y
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Bad news : Ar5e - failed MOT.
Good news : not on the engine, rust or emmissions
Bad news : Rear tyres incorrectly fitted
Good news : Muppets at tyre shop have fitted the left on the right, and the right on the left (Bridgestones, rotationally marked)
Bad news : Both rear springs fractured.
Good news : I've got some new LC ones in the shed which should fit for MOT purposes I think.
Bad news : Aircon re-gas failed, won't hold a vacuum.
I'll try Tech1 again tonight to see what the reported problem is. It did work on my old M, P, and S reg Meegas (all pre facelift), but I don't think it's ever worked on any of the systems in this car (Y reg post facelift).
Cheers
Malcolm
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Just been perusing EPC for rear springs. As far as I can tell, for a Y reg, Y1177xxx chassis number Elite Saloon with self leveling the correct p/n is 90295666, which is the same as a Senator B up to chassis number K1000098 (which means my LC springs should physically fit).
Anyone got a newer copy of EPC to confirm?
Cheers
Malcolm