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[STEMO]

At 2p per km, my road tax would cost me about £480 a year, up from £220, and would cost wifey around £350, up from £30.........just to get to work.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9521283/Per-mile-road-pricing-effective-way-plug-Treasurys-40bn-tax-hole.html

[BazaJT]

Well they've got to do something to claw back all the revenue they'll be losing with the takeover of EV's.

[deviator]

What scares me is the fact the government seem to be approaching this like a rudderless ship.

Go back a few years and the government was saying, 'Buy a diesel, they're green!' Pause for a few years. 'Don't buy a diesel, you are killing us all!'.

Now they are saying 'Buy an electric car!', excuse me while I cynically avoid the advice given.

[Nick W]

What scares me is the fact the government seem to be approaching this like a rudderless ship.

Go back a few years and the government was saying, 'Buy a diesel, they're green!' Pause for a few years. 'Don't buy a diesel, you are killing us all!'.

Now they are saying 'Buy an electric car!', excuse me while I cynically avoid the advice given.

It's always been like that. Diesels were promoted by politicians as a quick, easy, total cure to the concerns about CO2 emissions from petrol cars. The thing now is particulate emissions from diesels, but anyone had ever seen a diesel in use would have known that would be the downside.


EVs are suggested as the complete answer, but again they have some important disadvantages that are rarely mentioned by  decision makers. That's because politicians always favour short term solutions that make obvious changes, and rarely take the time to understand the whole problem. Especially when the only solution is for everyone to dramatically reduce their energy usage.

[Varche]

2p per km!

Shouldn’t that be 2 cents per km OR 2p per 0.625 mile .

One thing charging per mile would do is encourage more walking rather than using a car for convenience.

[deviator]

How do they intend to enforce/track/manage it?

If they do it via yearly MOT, people will start clocking cars again. If they go for a blackbox, then the costs are epic and I've no doubt a faraday cage would limit a blackbox.

It's difficult to implement those style of recording without doing it at the manufacturing stage.

The fairest way is to put it on fuel, but they wouldn't just add 2p, they'd add a lot more. I've said this for years, do away with road tax, add a penny to each litre of fuel and you'd get about the same amount, but with the added benefit of those who drive more, pay more and those who avoid paying to use a car, will still get stung for road tax equivalent at the pump. It would also save millions in being able to get rid of a large section of the DVLA. Sadly I don't trust any government to implement this in a sensible way, they are too greedy.

[Nick W]

Your post gives all of the reasons why any mileage charge will always be in addition to roadtax, which is relatively easy to administer and hard to avoid. That's why they went to it instead of just fuel tax in 1909. It's been in place for so long we're all very used to paying it. It also has the advantage of knowing roughly how much money you're going to raise.


Infrastructure costs are hidden, so the general public has no idea just how expensive things actually are.

[Marks DTM Calib]

What scares me is the fact the government seem to be approaching this like a rudderless ship.

Go back a few years and the government was saying, 'Buy a diesel, they're green!' Pause for a few years. 'Don't buy a diesel, you are killing us all!'.

Now they are saying 'Buy an electric car!', excuse me while I cynically avoid the advice given.

It's always been like that. Diesels were promoted by politicians as a quick, easy, total cure to the concerns about CO2 emissions from petrol cars. The thing now is particulate emissions from diesels, but anyone had ever seen a diesel in use would have known that would be the downside.


EVs are suggested as the complete answer, but again they have some important disadvantages that are rarely mentioned by  decision makers. That's because politicians always favour short term solutions that make obvious changes, and rarely take the time to understand the whole problem. Especially when the only solution is for everyone to dramatically reduce their energy usage.

Its not particulates, its the NOx emissions that are (were) the issue

Hence the rise of AdBlue and selective catalytic reduction (and VAG not bothering to fit it and winding up the EGR to compensate when in test mode)   

[STEMO]

How do they intend to enforce/track/manage it?

If they do it via yearly MOT, people will start clocking cars again. If they go for a blackbox, then the costs are epic and I've no doubt a faraday cage would limit a blackbox.

It's difficult to implement those style of recording without doing it at the manufacturing stage.

The fairest way is to put it on fuel, but they wouldn't just add 2p, they'd add a lot more. I've said this for years, do away with road tax, add a penny to each litre of fuel and you'd get about the same amount, but with the added benefit of those who drive more, pay more and those who avoid paying to use a car, will still get stung for road tax equivalent at the pump. It would also save millions in being able to get rid of a large section of the DVLA. Sadly I don't trust any government to implement this in a sensible way, they are too greedy.

That's a bit arse about face. The idea is that there won't be any fuel to tax, we'll all be running EVs, or there would be no need to change the current fuel duty system.

[STEMO]

Besides, EVs don't use fuel, so they would have to have a separate pence per mile system. Much easier to lump all vehicles into that system. When I say easier, it will be far from easy.

There is a massive percentage of households that have nowhere for a charging point to be installed, no off street parking, blocks of flats, etc. How does the new system work for them. I heard a ridiculous idea mooted about charging points in every lamp post. The whole network would have to be dug up and upgraded for that to happen.

I could list a thousand problems, but it would make no difference. The government will continue to spout this shite right up until it becomes apparent that they haven't got a hope in hell of implementing it. By then, they will have spent billions on trying (HS2 anyone?) and, probably, milked the motorist for most of it.

[STEMO]

And, of course, our little island contributes between 1 and 2% of global emissions. We could completely switch off everything and the emissions we saved would be generated by China in a couple of days.
I don't have an answer, but this posturing appears to be no more than an effort to placate the lentil munchers.

[Sir Tigger KC]

The lentil munchers are possibly the most dangerous people in Britain at the mo.....   

[STEMO]

The lentil munchers are possibly the most dangerous people in Britain at the mo.....   

Closely followed by wokists.......

[deviator]

There is a massive percentage of households that have nowhere for a charging point to be installed

There are an even bigger percentage of households who don't have a petrol station in their gardens. If fast charging stations take off, it won't be an issue. As most people would need to fill up 1-2 times a week. There is no reason one of those charging sessions can't be a fast charge whilst you wander around the supermarket.

[STEMO]

There is a massive percentage of households that have nowhere for a charging point to be installed

There are an even bigger percentage of households who don't have a petrol station in their gardens. If fast charging stations take off, it won't be an issue. As most people would need to fill up 1-2 times a week. There is no reason one of those charging sessions can't be a fast charge whilst you wander around the supermarket.

If you are under the impression that the infrastructure to support the millions of cars in the UK can be built in 20 years, then you are deluded. Also, it takes five minutes to fill a car with fuel, possibly once a week. If you think that two/ three two hour charges at the supermarket/charging station is ok, then feel free to waste six hours a week of your life wandering around Tesco. 

[STEMO]

On my travels this morning...10 miles into Wakefield, a pootle around and ten miles back, I saw precisely one EV, a BMW i3. I don't actually know anyone who owns an EV. There are no EVs around here (plenty of hybrids) that I know of. Bit of a way to go yet, I think. 

[STEMO]

Opti will be along later to tell me that I'm being too negative and that milk floats are the future.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Full tank of petrol takes about 5 minutes.

Quick charge of the 'leccy appliance' will take about forty minutes. A full charge much longer.

The word 'queue' comes to mind.

[Nick W]

If you are under the impression that the infrastructure to support the millions of cars in the UK can be built in 20 years, then you are deluded. Also, it takes five minutes to fill a car with fuel, possibly once a week. If you think that two/ three two hour charges at the supermarket/charging station is ok, then feel free to waste six hours a week of your life wandering around Tesco. 

It will also require a charger in every parking space, which will make the costs of running a petrol station look cheap. And those are already so high that the successful ones have had to find other ways of making a profit.


Almost all of my use is perfect for an EV, and I would like to have one because they are better as cars. Some small changes to my current procedures would accommodate most of the usage problems. Two things completely rule them out for me: I can't afford a new car, and when this terraced house was built in 1913 none of the occupants had personal transport. There is no off-street parking or any way of acquiring it which rules out charging one at home. Building chargers into lamp posts isn't a solution; this row of 15 houses has two posts split it into thirds.

[Varche]

Maybe the future is exchange charged batteries. It would require major redesignof the vehicles but nothing science cannot overcome. Or you could have exchange vehicles

As for lack of lamposts, how about dangling charging points installed in streets? Far cheaper than installing infrastructure in individual houses. They would need to be smart but everything is nowadays. Every problem has a solution.

[Nick W]

Every problem has a solution.

I'm not sure that's actually true.


It's not unusual to find the solution is just another, different problem.

[STEMO]

Maybe the future is exchange charged batteries. It would require major redesignof the vehicles but nothing science cannot overcome. Or you could have exchange vehicles

As for lack of lamposts, how about dangling charging points installed in streets? Far cheaper than installing infrastructure in individual houses. They would need to be smart but everything is nowadays. Every problem has a solution.

I take it you've never lived in a terraced house in a city, Varche? 
If you think you could plug your car in and go to bed, then  come out in the morning and drive off, you'd have another think coming. The youngsters around here would gleefully unplug every vehicle during the night. And vandalise the charging points. And try their best to run their houses from them. 

[Varche]

Yes I did for a few years . On street parking was a problem even then.

Lockable plugs, anti vandal proof , cctv cameras, huge out of town car parks withcharging points andfree bus service to and from. See every problem has asolution. The issue is , is their an appetite for the solution.

We have abundant sun here and we seriously looked into having an ev and a “ car shelter” with solar panels atop. Itwould more or less have worked. Two issues.. First was price. We got a very well equipped car for the money a basic car would have cost plus we planned at least two UK ( including Scotland) trips each year and other gadding about mainland Europe. Then came CV19......

[STEMO]

Oh my word, we going from the sublime to the ridiculous now. Every problem has a solution, so you say, well every solution has a cost, and the cost of what you're proposing would be astronomical. It would make HS2 look like a model railway.

Also, where are trucks and buses going to recharge? Oh, wait, they're just going to carry on polluting. 


I'm willing to be proved wrong, but I very much doubt I will.

[Nick W]

Yes I did for a few years . On street parking was a problem even then.

Lockable plugs, anti vandal proof , cctv cameras, huge out of town car parks withcharging points and free bus service to and from. See every problem has a solution. The issue is , is their an appetite for the solution.

So you're saying that free public transport to a private vehicle that can't be parked where it needs to be used is a solution?


A major justification for private vehicles is the convenience of it being instantly available - whether that's nipping to Tesco for some icecream, or having to get to the other side of the country because granny has had a stroke and isn't expected to see the dawn.


The real issue is that many 'solutions' are terrible ideas to solve invented or otherwise non-existent problems. What is really needed in such situations is someone with the clear sight and authority to knock a few heads together and insist that those involved stop being so oppsing stupid.

[STEMO]

Yes I did for a few years . On street parking was a problem even then.

Lockable plugs, anti vandal proof , cctv cameras, huge out of town car parks withcharging points and free bus service to and from. See every problem has a solution. The issue is , is their an appetite for the solution.

So you're saying that free public transport to a private vehicle that can't be parked where it needs to be used is a solution?


A major justification for private vehicles is the convenience of it being instantly available - whether that's nipping to Tesco for some icecream, or having to get to the other side of the country because granny has had a stroke and isn't expected to see the dawn.


The real issue is that many 'solutions' are terrible ideas to solve invented or otherwise non-existent problems. What is really needed in such situations is someone with the clear sight and authority to knock a few heads together and insist that those involved stop being so oppsing stupid.

A free electric bus, I hope. 

[STEMO]

Will these huge, out of town car parks have something to entertain people for the hours they spend there? Shops maybe? A cinema? Cafes? Wait! Don't these places already exist? 

[Varche]

Ludites all of you.  If you had been alive in an earlier period you would have declined gas , electric and sewage or later the mobile phone or later still the smart phone.

There is an infinite amount of money available witness Covid

[STEMO]

Ludites all of you.  If you had been alive in an earlier period you would have declined gas , electric and sewage or later the mobile phone or later still the smart phone.

There is an infinite amount of money available witness Covid

The is definitely a limited amount of money due to covid. You can just put a solar panel on your car so no problem there.

[Doctor Gollum]

Ludites all of you.  If you had been alive in an earlier period you would have declined gas , electric and sewage or later the mobile phone or later still the smart phone.

There is an infinite amount of imaginary money available witness Covid

Fixed.

[Varche]

 

[Nick W]

Ludites all of you.  If you had been alive in an earlier period you would have declined gas , electric and sewage or later the mobile phone or later still the smart phone.

There is an infinite amount of money available witness Covid

I'm no Luddite by any means. But you can't just magic working infrastructure out of thin air just by chucking a couple of impossible ideas around.

[Doctor Gollum]

Yes I did for a few years . On street parking was a problem even then.

Lockable plugs, anti vandal proof , cctv cameras, huge out of town car parks withcharging points andfree bus service to and from. See every problem has asolution. The issue is , is their an appetite for the solution.

We have abundant sun here and we seriously looked into having an ev and a “ car shelter” with solar panels atop. Itwould more or less have worked. Two issues.. First was price. We got a very well equipped car for the money a basic car would have cost plus we planned at least two UK ( including Scotland) trips each year and other gadding about mainland Europe. Then came CV19......

Almost all car crime in Horsham happens at the park and ride car park, to the point that almost no one uses it.

Cameras are zero deterrent as by the time someone has reviewed the footage the offenders are long gone, and most such crimes are tweakers or Pikies, and neither give a shit about getting caught.

Also, if you think cat theft is a thing, just wait until people realise how valuable battery packs are.

[Nick W]

Also, if you think cat theft is a thing, just wait until people realise how valuable battery packs are.

Unlikely to be too much of a problem unless someone figures out how to make them exchangeable. Which is another idea that sounds good until you actually think about it. The Renault Fluence didn't come to much.


The real problem will come when the vandals realise just how well lithium battery packs burn, and how difficult they are to extinguish. The little oppsers already know how to break a car window, let off the handbrake so it rolls down the hill and then chuck a petrol soaked rag inside....