Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: terry paget on 24 October 2015, 19:25:27
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2002 2.2 petrol manual saloon
This is the car on which I changed the head gasket recently. It has sat on the lawn for 6 weeks on a SORN note, now I wish to recommission it. On cold start it is inclined to start running slowly on 2 or 3, not respond to the throttle, and die. I try again, it does the same again. I try a third time it bursts into life and idles happily and steadily, and revs sweetly when throttle is opened.
I cannot give it a good thrashing, it's on a SORN note. Does anyone recognise the symptons, or have any suggestions? I fitted new plugs on reassembly, I have just taken one out, it's a bit sooty. There were 2 codes, P0130 02 sensor bank 1 sensor 1, and P0170 fuel trim bank 1. I have cancelled them and they have not reappeared.
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Only time my 2.2 had throttle pedal issues was when cam sensor was on it's last lets, similar to you, difficult to start once running it was lumpy and throttle pedal was not working. Restart and it was fine for a while.
But as its been standing I'd check plugs wells are fine
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Condensation/damp would be my guess as well :y
Pay particular attention to the coil pack plug and plug wells... best bet would be to leave coil pack in airing cupboard for a day or so and refit with fresh plugs and try again :y
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Thanks for advice. Coil pack is now in airing cupboard on top of cylinder. I think I have some more plugs somewhere, will check in the morning. .
Is the cam sensor the same as the 2.0?
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Faulty fuel regulator, air leak to regulator, weak pump, fuel filter??
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You suggest there is insufficient fuel pressure or volume to sustain engine running; I agree it seems like that. Possible pump is slow in starting, or perhaps the filter is blocked. This would show in sustained full power driving, but hard to test on a SORN note. I have known that in the past on another 2.2, caused by a kinked pipe near the filter following a botched filter change. I will check in the morning. Car was running fine before the HG change.
There is a vacuum hose from the throttle box to the top of the fuel pressure regulator. Again it was fine before the HG change so I don't expect trouble there. Do regulators often fail? I have never known one do so.
Normally the fuel rail is pressurised after engine stop, isn't it? Pressure has to be released before removing fuel pipes, even after a couple of days. I will check that tomorrow too.
Thanks for suggestions. Food for thought overnight!
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Fuel pump runs briefly to prime the system, but ecu won't run it constantly until the engine fires...
In other words fretting about fuel pressure etc is very much a red herring ;)
They don't like sitting, especially if damp, so might take a while to settle down, besides, if the battery has been off then the ecu has to re learn it's boundaries, which takes time ;)
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Thanks Al. I have only known a similar starting fault once before. That was on my 3.2, when it was the wife's car. That would start, hesitate, then stop; do it again; then fire and catch on the third attempt. I could not cure it. Then I changed the battery; complete cure. Sadly, in this case, I have already tried that.
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More data. Pressed fuel relief valve, no fuel squirted out. Interesting. Never known that before.
I only had 2 new plugs, so replaced plugs 1 & 3. Yesterday inspected plug 2. Plugs were OK, no oil or water in plug wells. Replaced coil pack after overnight stay in aitring cupboard. Started engine, fired instantly, ran normally. After 20 minutes. Trid again after 10 minutes, started and stopped. Tried again, started and stopped. Tried third time, started and ran So no change, fault not cured.
Possibly a temperature thing. ECU temp sensor seems to be securely plugged in. Instrument gauge reads OK. Will continue to experiment.
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Swap the purple relays from another car and try again :y
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Swap the purple relays from another car and try again :y
Swapped the relays, it started hot perfectly, but after an hour cooling it reverted to its needing 3 or more attempts to start. The pattern is building of starting first time hot, and quite well cold, but badly when lukewarm. I shall continue to experiment, if you have any more suggestions I should love to try them.
I might add when it was on the lawn and I started it once a week it would usually start first time.
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Might be the fpr then... Clutching at straws a bit, but it's either that or the ecu temp sensor has had a fit :-\
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I thought the 2 purple relays were the fuel pump relay (fpr?) and the injectors relay
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Meanwhile, this car needs an MOT test. Is there any reason why I should not submit it as it is? It starts OK hot, I have checked all the obvious things.
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I thought the 2 purple relays were the fuel pump relay (fpr?) and the injectors relay
They are indeed... have experienced them playing up when hot, but only on three 3.2s... :y
No harm in popping it through a test, as long as it idles and revs for the emissions test of course... :y
If nowt else at least then you'll know what's what with the car as a whole ;)
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I thought the 2 purple relays were the fuel pump relay (fpr?) and the injectors relay
They are indeed... have experienced them playing up when hot, but only on three 3.2s... :y
No harm in popping it through a test, as long as it idles and revs for the emissions test of course... :y
If nowt else at least then you'll know what's what with the car as a whole ;)
So as I have changed both the purple relays, all that is left is the ECU temperature sensor. I agree it is unlikely, I have changed them before in vain, but I have no more ideas. Furthermore, it was disturbed in the HG change. Other possibilties that come to mind are the cam sensor and the crank sensor, the usual suspects.
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So as I have changed both the purple relays, all that is left is the ECU temperature sensor. I agree it is unlikely, I have changed them before in vain, but I have no more ideas. Furthermore, it was disturbed in the HG change. Other possibilities that come to mind are the cam sensor and the crank sensor, the usual suspects.
You need to inspect things that are affected by lack of use. That doesn't apply to any of those sensors.
Your initial misfire clearing as it warms up should lead you to potentially lazy components like fuel injectors or cam lifters. Standing for long periods can easily affect both of these. The fuel pump is another candidate, although it is more likely to simply seize.
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Put in in for MOT today. On initial emissions test it had low Co, Low HC, but high (1.09) lambda. Tester ran through all other tests, failed it on a track rod end, then put it through emissions again, and it passed, lambda 1.006. At the end the EML was on. Can anyone explain that?
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Mine does that too ::) if I clear the 0420/0430 codes when I arrive at the test centre, the light goes out... by the time it's finished the test it's back on again from sitting around/getting hot...
Basically though, one track rod end and the car is MoTd :y
Certainly not a bad result...
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Mine does that too ::) if I clear the 0420/0430 codes when I arrive at the test centre, the light goes out... by the time it's finished the test it's back on again from sitting around/getting hot...
Basically though, one track rod end and the car is MoTd :y
Certainly not a bad result...
My code was P0170 fuel trim bank 1. I have now changed the track rod and reset the tracking with my plank, so hope to get it through tomorrow, and tax it on Sunday Nov 1st. That will just leave the clutch slave fluid leak.
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Car passed MOT today midday, tester expressed surprise at speed of sourcing a new TR and getting it fitted. My thanks to all for help.
Still not discovered the cause of the hesitant starting when lukewarm, maybe SIR Philpott was right when he said it needed an Italian tune up - good thrashing - to sort it out. When it is taxed I shall use it daily and see if it is fit to return to son Jonny.
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KR02 is now fully recommissioned - insured, taxed, new MOT. It suffered head gasket failure in July so I planned replacement, but SWMO, SIR Philbutt and cheap gasket set prices persuaded me it might be saved. Thanks to all for advice and support.
I hope a pic follows of the Omega saved from the scrapyard.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8h8hugow59t91y/RS02inDRIVE50%25.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8h8hugow59t91y/RS02inDRIVE50%25.jpg?dl=0)
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Good work :y
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Epilogue - this morning when the mist cleared I took it out on a celebratory spin on the Mendip Hills - Chewton Mendip, Harptree, Blagdon, fine view of Blagdon Lake below, then around Bristol Airport, Chew Stoke, across Chew Valley Lake dam, Stowey, Chewton Mendip and home. Car never missed a beat, sweet drive, and over the 33 mile it recorded 36mpg, jolly good for a 2.2. Engibe is torquey, climbed most of the hills in top gear.
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would love your garage terry :y
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3 weeks and 1000 miles down the road, yesterday it started hesitantly again. Now I think I know why. If wrong, I am sure you will tell me.
Car is fly by wire. On cranking starter fuel pump is operated. At other times fuel pump only gets power when crank sensor tells ECU rpm is above 500. Warm engine fires up, but only idle throttle is applied by ECU no matter where my right foot is, rpm falls below 500, fuel pump power is cut off so engine stops. I restart engine, it bursts into life.
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Try swapping the fuel pressure regulator for a n other, 3 bar iirc... :-\
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Does it have an Idle Air Control Valve, the thing that controls rpm's while stationary? If so it would be beneficial to clean it.
Although I own an older 2.0 model IACV is a bottleneck on these engines.
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Does it have an Idle Air Control Valve, the thing that controls rpm's while stationary? If so it would be beneficial to clean it.
Although I own an older 2.0 model IACV is a bottleneck on these engines.
No it doesn't, its a fly by wire engine where thr throttle is controlled by a stepper motor. The throttle pedal merely drives a variable resistor, advising the ECU of driver's wishes. The idle is similarly controlled by the ECU opening and closing the main, and only throttle. I have a 1997 2.0 Omega, and that does have an idle air control valve, but the 2.2s are different.
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Try swapping the fuel pressure regulator for a n other, 3 bar iirc... :-\
Thanks for the suggestion. I will see if I have one lying about, if so I will fit it. I would add that for the last three weeks the car has run faultlessly, but the fault recurred yesterday as I came out of Screwfix; engine was warm.
I do not see how the fuel pressure regulator would cause this fault.
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Heatsoak whislt engine off might exacerbate a weakness which is only present at low idle speeds when warm...
If it were a pump issue then it wouldn't rev, and if it were a an injector issue it would misfire... Not much else in the fuel system to cause an issue... And being mechanical rather than electrical it won't raise a code.
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Good thinking Al. I had a Citroen 2400 estate in the 1970s, my first big car, Webber carburretor petrol engine. It would start cold fine, it would restart hot fine soon after stopping. But half an hour sfter stopping it would start, run for 15 seconds then stop and refuse to restart. If cranked for a minute it would usually restart. Most annoying fault, especially on the Isle of Wight ferry. Dealers could not help me. Eventually traced to engine heat (heatsoak?) evaporating the fuel in the feed pipe. I bought another Citroen CX later and a new Haynes manual, and that incorporated a complicated modification with special spares to overcome the problem.
The only spare fuel pressure regulators I have are on V6 fuel rails and seem to be part of the fuel rails.