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[TheBoy]

You are the only person I've ever heard talk about wanderlust.

So I'll define my definition of tramlining - an inability to go in a straight line without constant, unpredictable corrections applied. Yes, that can be caused by rutted road surfaces, and I think we all accept that as normal.

[Entwood]

The only time I encounter tram lining is on certain roads where HGVs have created two distinct troughs in the surface of the tarmac.

Therefore I believe, as I have encountered this with different cars and various tyres, that damaged road surfaces cause tram lining.

Yes, badly rutted roads will cause the car to follow the ruts, and pull about as you go in them, and out of them. Thats accepted as normal.

We are talking about tyres (we've proved it to tyres), tramlining on unrutted roads, such as the outside 2 lanes of the M40 (the inside lane isn't bad on the M40 either), so much so, that you daren't look in the mirrors for more than the quickest glance, else you will be over the white lines.

Are you talking about tramlining or wanderlust?

There's a section of road near to where I live, the Omega (2.6) was all over the place negotiating it, where as both the Astra and Insignia are rock solid over the same stretch.

The 2.2 was also rock solid over the same stretch, but on motorways, seemed to have wanderlust.

Thinking similar thoughts here .. "tramlining" as I always understood it, is the tendency for the wheels to want to follow the ruts in the roads, or once set in a certain direction to want to continue that way (once the self centering has done its thing) ... in other words to follow a path like a "tram" does.

Many of the arguments in the several threads on the subject seem to talk about the car moving on its own, so much so (above) that you dare not take your eyes off the road ahead as you must continually make steering corrections.

When Chris drove mine down his "known" road he commented that it only needed one "correction" which coincided with a strong gust of wind, and he declared himself "happy" with the setup.

I just hope we are not talking about two totally different things under the one word, and confusing the issue somewhat !!

Confused of wiltshire

[Auto Addict]

You are the only person I've ever heard talk about wanderlust.

So I'll define my definition of tramlining - an inability to go in a straight line without constant, unpredictable corrections applied. Yes, that can be caused by rutted road surfaces, and I think we all accept that as normal.

I define tramlining as caused by rutted road surfaces, wanderlust as the inability to go in a straight line without constant corrections of the steering on smooth, un-rutted surfaces.

In my above definition, the 2.6 suffered from tramlining, and not wanderlust.

The 2.2 suffered from wanderlust, but not tramlining.

[scottambrose]

i cured my bad tramlining with new tyres. a totally different ride now. no wandering to the curb anymore

[tunnie]

The only time I encounter tram lining is on certain roads where HGVs have created two distinct troughs in the surface of the tarmac.

Therefore I believe, as I have encountered this with different cars and various tyres, that damaged road surfaces cause tram lining.

Yes, badly rutted roads will cause the car to follow the ruts, and pull about as you go in them, and out of them. Thats accepted as normal.

We are talking about tyres (we've proved it to tyres), tramlining on unrutted roads, such as the outside 2 lanes of the M40 (the inside lane isn't bad on the M40 either), so much so, that you daren't look in the mirrors for more than the quickest glance, else you will be over the white lines.

Are you talking about tramlining or wanderlust?

There's a section of road near to where I live, the Omega (2.6) was all over the place negotiating it, where as both the Astra and Insignia are rock solid over the same stretch.

The 2.2 was also rock solid over the same stretch, but on motorways, seemed to have wanderlust.

Thinking similar thoughts here .. "tramlining" as I always understood it, is the tendency for the wheels to want to follow the ruts in the roads, or once set in a certain direction to want to continue that way (once the self centering has done its thing) ... in other words to follow a path like a "tram" does.

Many of the arguments in the several threads on the subject seem to talk about the car moving on its own, so much so (above) that you dare not take your eyes off the road ahead as you must continually make steering corrections.

When Chris drove mine down his "known" road he commented that it only needed one "correction" which coincided with a strong gust of wind, and he declared himself "happy" with the setup.

I just hope we are not talking about two totally different things under the one word, and confusing the issue somewhat !!

Confused of wiltshire

But your Elite is on standard Elite 17" rims I think? Going from the picture?

Its a problem magnified I think with these 18" chav-me rims which some decide to fit, as I drove for 100's miles across Euro land barely having to steer at 80mph across all types motorway surfaces.

Constant adjustment at speed would drive me crazy, I just turn the wheel when I need to change direction.

Something to be said for running standard 16" CD alloys with average tyres on it....

[Auto Addict]

I should add, when I towed with the 2.2, the 'wanderlust' didn't happen.

[Kevin Wood]

It seems to me that all we will ever be able to say is that this is down to tyre construction. Yes, the manufacturer's choice of tyre size puts us in a non-ideal place to begin with, but some tyres in that size achieve stability on a given chassis and setup, and others don't on the same chassis.

Oh, and I believe tramlining and wanderlust might well be related. If a tyre hits an uneven surface it will either comply well with that surface, achieving practically the same contact patch, or it will not, leading to an uneven contact patch. Whether that causes the vehicle to pull laterally depends on what happens to the contact patch, and how its' interaction with the tread pattern causes the forces that act on the tyre to vary.

It could be that with some tyres, those forces vary through minute variations in the vehicle's steering input and poise, leading to seemingly random changes in direction. With the steering and suspension setup on the Omega already being less than ideal and therefore sensitive to such forces, the result is where we are.

Yes, it would be nice to know in advance if a particular make and model of tyre will be satisfactory, but I can't see us ever achieving that, as it's clearly not down to an advertised aspect of tyre performance, but, I suspect, some subtlety in tread pattern, depth or compliance of the tread area and/or sidewall. 

I can't see us getting beyond "suck it and see", to be honest, complicated by the fact that one man's "severe tramlining" is another man's "it does the job".

[Auto Addict]

It seems to me that all we will ever be able to say is that this is down to tyre construction. Yes, the manufacturer's choice of tyre size puts us in a non-ideal place to begin with, but some tyres in that size achieve stability on a given chassis and setup, and others don't on the same chassis.

Oh, and I believe tramlining and wanderlust might well be related. If a tyre hits an uneven surface it will either comply well with that surface, achieving practically the same contact patch, or it will not, leading to an uneven contact patch. Whether that causes the vehicle to pull laterally depends on what happens to the contact patch, and how its' interaction with the tread pattern causes the forces that act on the tyre to vary.

It could be that with some tyres, those forces vary through minute variations in the vehicle's steering input and poise, leading to seemingly random changes in direction. With the steering and suspension setup on the Omega already being less than ideal and therefore sensitive to such forces, the result is where we are.

Yes, it would be nice to know in advance if a particular make and model of tyre will be satisfactory, but I can't see us ever achieving that, as it's clearly not down to an advertised aspect of tyre performance, but, I suspect, some subtlety in tread pattern, depth or compliance of the tread area and/or sidewall. 

I can't see us getting beyond "suck it and see", to be honest, complicated by the fact that one man's "severe tramlining" is another man's "it does the job".

Can't argue with you comments, KW.

[feeutfo]

It's easy to accept the " we'll never know what causes the problem " until you find yourself where TB is now. ...and to a lesser extent where I was with Falken 912 3/4 years ago. It's an utterly unacceptable state of handling.

Wonder lust, tram lining, lacking directional stability are all the same thing. The car will not go straight.

If there are lines left on the road from lorries, that would be a reason for deviation. It's possible not see deviation on lorry lines with an omega and sc3 mo,  but unusual. The car will rise and fall in and out of the dip, it will do, the surface is a different height. Although the height/depth of the lorry line can vary. Naturally if the lorry lines deep enough the car will move off line eventually.

The problem arises as severe, IMO, when there are no discernible irregularity in the road. Yet the car is still moving around. It's like being cought in a cross wind, or driving on a windy day, except its not windy.
 As if all four tyres are running at 15psi or something daft.

As said, diversion off lorry lines might be expected. And possibly accepted. But if your on lane 3 of a newly re surfaced motorway, It's a warm day, the car is set up correctly, there's no faults on the car, you've fitted new tyres and the damn thing is impossible to keep straight, that unacceptable.

New cars will have manufacturer approved tyres fitted that have been tested to death.

[tunnie]

It's easy to accept the " we'll never know what causes the problem " until you find yourself where TB is now. ...and to a lesser extent where I was with Falken 912 3/4 years ago. It's an utterly unacceptable state of handling.

Wonder lust, tram lining, lacking directional stability are all the same thing. The car will not go straight.

If there are lines left on the road from lorries, that would be a reason for deviation. It's possible not see deviation on lorry lines with an omega and sc3 mo,  but unusual. The car will rise and fall in and out of the dip, it will do, the surface is a different height. Although the height/depth of the lorry line can vary. Naturally if the lorry lines deep enough the car will move off line eventually.

The problem arises as severe, IMO, when there are no discernible irregularity in the road. Yet the car is still moving around. It's like being cought in a cross wind, or driving on a windy day, except its not windy.
 As if all four tyres are running at 15psi or something daft.

As said, diversion off lorry lines might be expected. And possibly accepted. But if your on lane 3 of a newly re surfaced motorway, It's a warm day, the car is set up correctly, there's no faults on the car, you've fitted new tyres and the damn thing is impossible to keep straight, that unacceptable.

New cars will have manufacturer approved tyres fitted that have been tested to death.

Is it worth looking at RWD Saloons that are new, with same tyre size? Find said models, maybe E-Class Merc? BMW 5's or Jag XJ's?

Find ones that run same rubber, blag test drives? As surely its the tyre, not the car? Would same tyre behave radically different from XJ-R to Omega? 

[cem_devecioglu]

It's easy to accept the " we'll never know what causes the problem " until you find yourself where TB is now. ...and to a lesser extent where I was with Falken 912 3/4 years ago. It's an utterly unacceptable state of handling.

Wonder lust, tram lining, lacking directional stability are all the same thing. The car will not go straight.

If there are lines left on the road from lorries, that would be a reason for deviation. It's possible not see deviation on lorry lines with an omega and sc3 mo,  but unusual. The car will rise and fall in and out of the dip, it will do, the surface is a different height. Although the height/depth of the lorry line can vary. Naturally if the lorry lines deep enough the car will move off line eventually.

The problem arises as severe, IMO, when there are no discernible irregularity in the road. Yet the car is still moving around. It's like being cought in a cross wind, or driving on a windy day, except its not windy.
 As if all four tyres are running at 15psi or something daft.

As said, diversion off lorry lines might be expected. And possibly accepted. But if your on lane 3 of a newly re surfaced motorway, It's a warm day, the car is set up correctly, there's no faults on the car, you've fitted new tyres and the damn thing is impossible to keep straight, that unacceptable.

New cars will have manufacturer approved tyres fitted that have been tested to death.

Is it worth looking at RWD Saloons that are new, with same tyre size? Find said models, maybe E-Class Merc? BMW 5's or Jag XJ's?

Find ones that run same rubber, blag test drives? As surely its the tyre, not the car? Would same tyre behave radically different from XJ-R to Omega? 

all those cars tramline Tunnie.. jaguars, bmws, mercedes and many others.. 
 
and not only this forum and members, many others are looking for a solution..

[Kevin Wood]

It's easy to accept the " we'll never know what causes the problem " until you find yourself where TB is now. ...and to a lesser extent where I was with Falken 912 3/4 years ago. It's an utterly unacceptable state of handling.

Indeed, but what more are we going to achieve? We know what the problem is, in as much detail as we'll ever know, IMHO: "Something in the tyre's construction interacts with a shortcoming of the Omega's suspension setup."

This "something" isn't going to be written on the tyre sidewall or the marketing BS that accompanies it, so I don't see any alternative to taking a punt on a tyre and hoping it works, and accepting that you won't win every time, TBH.

Spreading the risk among ourselves might help, but at the risk that, the bigger the pool of Omega drivers you ask, the wider the spread of expectations and sensitivities to tramlining you'll introduce.

Then you'll get those who'll never admit the tyre they bought was a lemon, and those who'll regurgitate reviews of tyres without having driven on them, let alone in an Omega.

It would be great if you could "try before you buy" but, sadly, that's not possible. At least we know to avoid SC5s and Falkens. That knowledge has, unfortunately, come at a cost to yourself and TheBoy, but at least nobody else will go down that route. I can't really see what more we can achieve, other than to share such findings in as honest and consistent a way as we can manage. Hence it'd be good to assemble as many tyres as possible at an airfield and try them.

[cem_devecioglu]

and to add , there are hundreds of tyre make*models*sizes that you cant try individually (I dont think anyones budget here is enough to try all of them)..
 
your only chance is to look for tests (primarily)  and although not reliable (as its not measured) read user reviews.. that will at least eliminate worst tyres..
 
but as said tests dont include tramlining and your weather and road conditions may effect the tyre handling (assuming your geo setup is ok).. and if the tests are not distorted

[feeutfo]

That's where I was heading Kev. The Airfield meet. What's the odds on finding a similarity amongst bad handling tyres...? Slim?

I am in two minds as to weather to enjoy the day blasting round, or with pen and paper making notes.

I think it's fair to say, nobody knows the answer to tram lining tyres.., what is differant between those and non tram lining tyres. Or at least finding acceptable levels anyway.


However I do wonder, as cem mentioned, and given the MO sc3 tyres performance, if tyres that work on Mercs would also work on the omega. Maybe...?

Mercs of a certain era have much worse set up than an omega, with massive castor angle and aggressive camber that's non adjustable.

Just a thought.

[mantahatch]

Can I ask what kind of speed you are doing for this to happen, are we talking 60 to 70 or are you "pressing on" shall we say. I ask as wondering if aerodynamics are coming into play. Less than 70 and aero has little effect. above 70 and it comes into play. Virtually all road cars produce lift, could it be going light at high speeds ? This could be a design problem.

If you look at the side profile of the Omega it is basically a wing. So at high speed you will have low pressure on the upper surfaces of the car.

Just a thought.