Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[raywilb]

has anybody have heating sourced by a heat pump ?

[TheBoy]

Why would we?  Expensive to install, no cheaper to run....


Unless, of course, you are a tree hugger, and fail to realise that the manufacture of such things probably outweigh and reduced emmissions in life....

[Marks DTM Calib]

I did look into it.

Quite challenging to site as they have to have quite a bit of space on three sides and be circa 1m from the boundary, not small either!

[dave the builder]

The "FREE* £5000 boiler grant" has stirred up lots of attention 
Unless your house is very well insulated and has wet under floor heating ,heat recovery ventilation etc (in which case your heating bills are probably quite low anyway  ) then you will need to add/spend 10 grand plus of your not "FREE" own money and have your house raped by tradesmen to make the house suitable for air source heat pump .

the national grid is antiquated ,it can't cope long term with increasing power demands without massive investment .

the massive investment will come from increased costs for electricity to the end user ,as demand increases, so will cost (like gas now )

I don't sound very "on board" with the saving the planet from global warming do I ?

If you want to make a difference to energy bills look at your appliance ratings etc ,turn the heating down 

something as simple as swapping from a big plasma TV (some use 400+ watts  ) to a modern LED one (sub 100 watts) can actually pay for the new toy energy efficient alternative appliance in a short time .

100w old incandescent light bulb/lamp costs £1,20 to run for 3 days constant (2.4 KWH ), buy a 5w LED lamp/bulb for a quid, 3 days constant running (360w) is 6 pence , you've paid back your investment ,any usage after that is a big ongoing saving

most people have swapped to LED lamps already but there are still loads of people with halogen downlights and ye olde fluorescent lamps  .

I can see a lot of poorly installed ,costly ,inefficient air source heat pumps being installed  with the lure of "FREE* MONEY"

* not free at all 

[STEMO]

It's a non starter for most of the terraced houses around here. Built in the 1920's with no cavity in the walls, and no loft insulation (except for the eaves) because the attic was built as a bedroom. The cost of lining all the interior walls and putting heat retaining tiles on the roof would cost more than most of them are worth. That's without a heat source pump.
Glad I'll be dead before all of this nonsense becomes compulsory.

[Doctor Gollum]

I wouldn't wish the time away quite that quickly 

[Olympia5776]

The only thing you all have to look forward to is being colder and having to pay more for the privilege .
You get nothing for nothing in this world and is it a coincidence that all this posturing and promises  by politicians and royalty comes just before they take centre stage at COP26.
They want the glory but you'll all have to pay AND suffer  for it .....
The householder heating his house is low hanging fruit .

I watched a programme on the making of laminated shaped auto glass recently and was aghast at the energy required to make a single piece . And yet they want to replace every IC car with an new design electric equivalent  .

"GREEN IS GOOD" ... oh f\/ck off Boris .

[Rangie]

Hopefully my gas boiler will outlast me.

[raywilb]

has anybody have heating sourced by a heat pump ?

why i asked is as an experiment nearly 4 yrs ago my bungalow was one of 6 that had our oil systems replaced & heat pump systems installed. they are all mitsubushi pumps & out of the 6 , 4 have malfunctioned & had to be renewed. before it was installed all the old cavity wall insulation was sucked out & reinstalled.all rads had to be replaced .  the heating is supposed to maintain a constant temperature but doesn,t  also what I have found is there is no instant hot water hence gallons of water is wasted when hot water is needed. also my electric bills have more than doubled but its my only source of power. i would swap it for a combi boiler system tomorrow if i could

[TheBoy]

Also, there seems to be quite a lot of people commenting that theirs is struggling to heat the home in cold conditions.  Which I guess, seeing how they work, makes sense.

So if we get a good snap of -18C like we did a decade or so ago, will they still work?

[Sir Tigger KC]

They were talking about these on Whine earlier and some 'expert' was on waxing lyrical about the things, but at the end admitted that he has to wear a Puffa jacket around the house to keep warm!     

[LC0112G]

They work like inside out fridges. At the back of a fridge/freezer there is a radiator, and if you touch it you'll feel it gets hot. You're using (say) 100Watts of electrical energy to 'pump' heat out of the center of the fridge, and dissipate it out of the radiator on the back of the fridge.

The physics then is that if you 'pump' 50W of heat out of the fridge by using 100W of electricity, the total heat dissipated in the radiator is 150W - and you're generating 50W of 'cold' inside the fridge. So you're generating 150W of heat by using 100W of electrical energy. Its 150% efficient. A well designed heat pump can actually be 400% efficient - 1KW of electrical energy in, 4KW of heat out.

A good home condensing gas boiler on the other hand is what? 90% efficient maximum? So the heat pump will be 4 times more efficient than a gas boiler. The trick then is to generate the electricity in such a way that you don't have to burn gas - which is what all those big propeller things do that they're building all around the coast (plus nuclear & hydro power) 

If they can get the cost of production and installation down to levels comparible with a gas boiler, then I'd have one next time. But the current boiler is only 3 years old so I'd hope it'll last another 20 years.

[STEMO]

Does anyone think that all of this is actually possible? My opinion is that the attempted implementation is going to cost an absolute fortune, I'm talking hundreds of billions of pounds.
If, by some miracle, we got close to our goals by, say, 2040, would people quickly realise that it wasn't really making any difference at all because the biggest polluters baulked at the cost? Or just didn't have the money, or will, in the first place.
I'm not a climate change denier, but this risks costing everyone of us tens of thousands over the years, and I can't see it being money well spent.

[STEMO]

There are those, of course, who see it as something much more sinister.

[LC0112G]

It's kind of chicken and egg. They need higher acceptance and installed units to get the costs down, but unless costs drop people won't be keen. If the costs of replacement gas boilers and heat pumps can be made similar then there is no real reason not to take up the heat pump IMV (assuming all other things are equal).

I suspect that in time the govt will start increasing the taxes on home use gas as a method of incentivising the switch over to electricity. VAT is currently 5% on home fuel - relatively easy to increase that back to 20%. If electric heat pumps can be 4 times more efficient than gas CH, then once the price of gas exceeds one quarter that of electricity (per BTU/KWh) then the cost of running the heating becomes lower on leccy.

Just got to stop grannies freezing to death as a result of gas price rises.

[TheBoy]

I'm not a climate change denier

But don't be afraid if you are, seeing as despite the billions spent on research, there is no scientific evidence to some that the planet's warming is man made, rather than natural, as has happened multiple times in the planet's history. No matter what the BBC and co promote as fact.

In much the same way there is no scientific evidence that smoking causes lung cancer.


Personally, I believe its likely that a proportion of warming is man made.

[TheBoy]

They work like inside out fridges. At the back of a fridge/freezer there is a radiator, and if you touch it you'll feel it gets hot. You're using (say) 100Watts of electrical energy to 'pump' heat out of the center of the fridge, and dissipate it out of the radiator on the back of the fridge.

The physics then is that if you 'pump' 50W of heat out of the fridge by using 100W of electricity, the total heat dissipated in the radiator is 150W - and you're generating 50W of 'cold' inside the fridge. So you're generating 150W of heat by using 100W of electrical energy. Its 150% efficient. A well designed heat pump can actually be 400% efficient - 1KW of electrical energy in, 4KW of heat out.

A good home condensing gas boiler on the other hand is what? 90% efficient maximum? So the heat pump will be 4 times more efficient than a gas boiler. The trick then is to generate the electricity in such a way that you don't have to burn gas - which is what all those big propeller things do that they're building all around the coast (plus nuclear & hydro power) 

If they can get the cost of production and installation down to levels comparible with a gas boiler, then I'd have one next time. But the current boiler is only 3 years old so I'd hope it'll last another 20 years.

Yeah, but those efficiency figures are designed to make stupid people not understand the principles, and sign up for one.

My mum's bloody great big 3 phase boiler is supposed to be massively efficient...   ...but she disagrees strongly, based on the fact her home is cold in the winter, and her bills are eye watering.

And the current gas prices are caused, in part, but the lack of generation of unreliable renewables.

[LC0112G]

mum's bloody great big 3 phase boiler is supposed to be massively efficient...

Is it a simple boiler, or a heat pump? An electric boiler can never be more than 100% efficient. A Gas boiler is supposedly 90% efficient, but electricity historically has been much more expensive than gas, so heating a home with electricity was always several times more expensive. If the price of gas remains where it currently is, then the balance will change - assuming we can get the leccy from renewable sources.

It would help if half our Nuclear power stations weren't busted.

[Doctor Gollum]

170 million tons of molten gubbins has been chucked out of a hole on a little island in the last month...

And the Chinese will only go green when they run out of materials to burn and make things with...

So, if changing your light bulbs for ones half a watt lower makes you feel better then happy days, but if not, don't waste your time worrying about it...

[STEMO]

170 million tons of molten gubbins has been chucked out of a hole on a little island in the last month...

And the Chinese will only go green when they run out of materials to burn and make things with...

So, if changing your light bulbs for ones half a watt lower makes you feel better then happy days, but if not, don't waste your time worrying about it...

Thing is, you'll have no choice whether you're worried or not. That's the bit that's bothering a lot of people. As Jaime said, despite the government's assertions to the contrary, the science isn't quite there, but we are all going to be forced into a situation where we pay a fortune for something that, in my mind, just isn't going to make any difference.

[dave the builder]

Air source heat pumps are NOT as efficient as some would have you believe in out climate in the UK.

they have to reverse cycle the outside unit to defrost it when it gets cold ,wasting electric 

and you can't just rip out a gas boiler and fit an ASHP to a poorly insulated house with rads
ASHPs run at much lower temps and you need a decent insulated thermal mass to get the benefits and boost domestic hot water temps with electric elements 

or you could use a gas boiler for that   

ASHPs have their place, in new builds that are designed to reap the benefits with a huge solar array to contribute the the running costs .

The more we spend on green tech , the more the Chinese will polute to supply us with said green tech 

[STEMO]

Couldn't you just put a massive heating element in the big box and blow air past it? Then you could put it inside the house and call it a convector heater 

[Sir Tigger KC]

There are those, of course, who see it as something much more sinister.

No way!   .         

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Bollix to all that crap. You simply cant beat a good old coal fire in winter. No chimney in my current house, but if I ever move again that will be a definite requirement.
Coal or logs burning in the front room is a wonderful thing. Couldnt give a toss what little Greta says. 

[STEMO]

Bollix to all that crap. You simply cant beat a good old coal fire in winter. No chimney in my current house, but if I ever move again that will be a definite requirement.
Coal or logs burning in the front room is a wonderful thing. Couldnt give a toss what little Greta says. 

The local greenies will report you and a man will call round and get his big hose out 

[dave the builder]

Couldn't you just put a massive heating element in the big box and blow air past it? Then you could put it inside the house and call it a convector heater 

that's heating air, which cools rapidly when cold air rushes in from outside when you open the door 
it's better to heat the fabric of the building and water.
a load of solar panels on the roof feeding electricity to heating elements in the concrete floor slab during winter , and feeding a hot water tank in summer , rather than selling power back to the grid for peanuts 

[ronnyd]

As had been said before, what is the sense of little old Britain going carbon neutral when China, India, USA, Aus and others carry on pumping out pollutants regardless. Christ, i'm glad i'm old. 

[dave the builder]

As had been said before, what is the sense of little old Britain going carbon neutral when China, India, USA, Aus and others carry on pumping out pollutants regardless. Christ, i'm glad i'm old. 

You'd best stay alive , we can't afford the gas bill to cremate you 

[STEMO]

As had been said before, what is the sense of little old Britain going carbon neutral when China, India, USA, Aus and others carry on pumping out pollutants regardless. Christ, i'm glad i'm old. 

You'd best stay alive , we can't afford the gas bill to cremate you 

Ronny is getting skipped, like me.

[VXL V6]

Bollix to all that crap. You simply cant beat a good old coal fire in winter. No chimney in my current house, but if I ever move again that will be a definite requirement.
Coal or logs burning in the front room is a wonderful thing. Couldnt give a toss what little Greta says. 

Agreed. Every house I've lived in we have had an open fire.

[dave the builder]

As had been said before, what is the sense of little old Britain going carbon neutral when China, India, USA, Aus and others carry on pumping out pollutants regardless. Christ, i'm glad i'm old. 

You'd best stay alive , we can't afford the gas bill to cremate you 

Ronny is getting skipped, like me.

Skip companies are quite strict when it comes to asbestos, fridges/freezers and dead bodies 

[Olympia5776]

Bollix to all that crap. You simply cant beat a good old coal fire in winter. No chimney in my current house, but if I ever move again that will be a definite requirement.
Coal or logs burning in the front room is a wonderful thing. Couldnt give a toss what little Greta says. 

These boys would piss on my slippers if I even considered such a abomination as a heat pump....



PS you'll notice the stove is on full fire afterburner mode ........YEAH .

[ronnyd]

As had been said before, what is the sense of little old Britain going carbon neutral when China, India, USA, Aus and others carry on pumping out pollutants regardless. Christ, i'm glad i'm old. 

You'd best stay alive , we can't afford the gas bill to cremate you 

Ronny is getting skipped, like me.

Just roll me me up in an old bit of carpet fella's. No one will notice. 

[dave the builder]

Bollix to all that crap. You simply cant beat a good old coal fire in winter. No chimney in my current house, but if I ever move again that will be a definite requirement.
Coal or logs burning in the front room is a wonderful thing. Couldnt give a toss what little Greta says. 

These boys would piss on my slippers if I even considered such a abomination as a heat pump....



PS you'll notice the stove is on full fire afterburner mode ........YEAH .

Burning politicians is carbon neutral 

 lovely pair of rodent control sentinels making sure mice don't steal logs from the fire 

[Olympia5776]

 lovely pair of rodent control sentinels making sure mice don't steal logs from the fire 
[/quote]

Thank you Dave , you should see the other three .....

[Viral_Jim]

I'm not sure I'd go with a heat pump even in a new build. If you insulate the sh!t out of it, why not just install electric rads, it's not like it will take much energy to heat the place anyway.

The £5-10k you spend on an ashp, or way more than that on a gshp would buy you plenty of electricity.

If I were building a"green" building, I'd spend my money on battery storage and a decent solar setup for the roof.

Oh and a log burner.

[Varche]

Bloke over the road from my Dad has got rid of his storage heaters ( remember them?) and had gas put in. I had a chat with one of the workmen. He said gas has a future as they are trialling adding Hydrogen to it to make it greener

Lightbulbs. The new ones may use less electric but they dont last very long but then who keeps receipts and dates their bulbs….. And they don’t cost a quid.

Heat pumps may just be another fad. Remember when diesel cars came along and became popular. It is all just consumerism. Lots of money to be made legally and illegally from the green revolution

[Sir Tigger KC]

Bloke over the road from my Dad has got rid of his storage heaters ( remember them?)

I grew up in a house with a log fire in the lounge, a small coal fire in the dining room and a SuperSer portable gas fire in our 1950's single skin lean to kitchen with large single glazed windows that streamed with condensation when it was cold outside!  There was no heating upstairs and ice on the inside of the windows was common in the winter!

I was about 14 or so when my Dad installed storage heaters, although the tight bugger only put one upstairs on the landing!   . We all got colds for the first time that first winter in our warm(ish) house.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I know, I know, I was lucky! 

Most of you grew up int oles int groond, got a sound thrashing before going tut school andt were appy! 

[Raeturbo]

I’ve got an ancient Baxi  Bermuda  back boiler 547 I think, it’s very powerful and not too bad on gas, they will have to demolish my home before I let that go. It would be like taking my Evo from me and replacing it with a fkg mini🤬

[STEMO]

170 million tons of molten gubbins has been chucked out of a hole on a little island in the last month...

And the Chinese will only go green when they run out of materials to burn and make things with...

So, if changing your light bulbs for ones half a watt lower makes you feel better then happy days, but if not, don't waste your time worrying about it...

And, by the look of things, it's not just the Chinese

Climate change: Fossil fuel production set to soar over next decade https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58971131

[Sir Tigger KC]

Interesting read about heat pumps in today's Mail.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10109299/ROGER-BISBY-Heat-pumps-one-biggest-cons-Ive-seen-building-trade.html

[STEMO]

Interesting read about heat pumps in today's Mail.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10109299/ROGER-BISBY-Heat-pumps-one-biggest-cons-Ive-seen-building-trade.html

Anyone in the trade will know this already, as will most people with any kind of functioning brain .

[Rangie]

The companies that supply spares for gas boilers should be filling their warehouses, because anybody with any sense will maintain their gas boilers for as long as possible.

[dave the builder]

Lightbulbs. The new ones may use less electric but they dont last very long but then who keeps receipts and dates their bulbs….. And they don’t cost a quid.

Modern LED lamps are pretty long lasting now ,unlike the first incarnations 

If you have an erratic unstable electricity supply that won't help lamp life .
I have surge protection devices ,though some toys I wouldn't run from the back up genny .

Poundworld or poundland and similar shops in the UK have popular LED lamp types B22, E14 ,E27 , GU10 etc

for a quid  

[TheBoy]

I’ve got an ancient Baxi  Bermuda  back boiler 547 I think, it’s very powerful and not too bad on gas, they will have to demolish my home before I let that go. It would be like taking my Evo from me and replacing it with a fkg mini🤬

I got a Potterton Suprima, thats probably not that efficient either.  But it burns through more circuit boards than it does gas

[dave the builder]

I've got 2 new Bosch greenstar C1 condensing combi boilers
(the good ,well built ones ,before Worcester Bosch went all plasticy shyte)
there in my workshop ,boxed up 
on the wall being used(and working perfectly)  is a Worcester Bosch 240 RSF (2008) 
 

[STEMO]

I've got 2 new Bosch greenstar C1 condensing combi boilers
(the good ,well built ones ,before Worcester Bosch went all plasticy shyte)
there in my workshop ,boxed up 
on the wall being used(and working perfectly)  is a Worcester Bosch 240 RSF (2008) 

I've got a Vaillant which is seven years old and which will last at least another five years. Then I'll get another one which will last until I die.

[Doctor Gollum]

Our Vaillant is easily 15 years old and going strong. Gets serviced once a year and sips gas.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

My (6 year old ?)Vaillant has developed a habit of not firing up in the mornings if outside tempa are a little chilly. Throws up fault code F28.
"Engineers" have attended four times in the last year and the last one fitted new parts whic would cure the problem.
It did, until a couple of weeks ago, and its now doing the same again. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Ours has required a couple of parts replacing, but nothing that actually stopped it working. Mind you, a coal fired oil drum would have been an improvement on the previous system 

[Marks DTM Calib]

Got an old Potterton Profile fitted when the house was built, bullet proof (needed three capacitors replacing on the circuit board about 15 years ago), gets a good clean over every 12 months.

Keeping hold of that as long as I can as its around 75% efficient so not terrible (as most of the modern condensing boilers only get the max efficiency when flat out and as they have a modulated gas valve, are not always working at the optimum level).

Hence why I keep an eye on the next tech, as its likely we wont have another boiler

[Auto Addict]

I've got an Ideal W2000 at least 32 years old.

[dave the builder]

Blimey 
seems all the members of OOF are running older boilers   
best hide this thread or we'll have extinction rebellion nutcases gluing themselves to TB's driveway   

[STEMO]

Blimey 
seems all the members of OOF are running older boilers   
best hide this thread or we'll have extinction rebellion nutcases gluing themselves to TB's driveway 

I don't consider 7 years to be old, especially as it came with a ten year guarantee 

[TheBoy]

Blimey 
seems all the members of OOF are running older boilers   
best hide this thread or we'll have extinction rebellion nutcases gluing themselves to TB's driveway 

I don't consider 7 years to be old, especially as it came with a ten year guarantee 

I would do exactly what I would do if I came across them on the M25. Drive over them.

[STEMO]

Blimey 
seems all the members of OOF are running older boilers   
best hide this thread or we'll have extinction rebellion nutcases gluing themselves to TB's driveway 

I don't consider 7 years to be old, especially as it came with a ten year guarantee 

I would do exactly what I would do if I came across them on the M25. Drive over them.

Most of them are married to old boilers too. 

[ronnyd]

I've got a Johnson & Starley warm air unit, with a separate water heater. All fired by gas. Now, that is Retro.   I'm surprised Greta hasn't been round to firebomb me. 

[STEMO]

I've got a Johnson & Starley warm air unit, with a separate water heater. All fired by gas. Now, that is Retro.   I'm surprised Greta hasn't been round to firebomb me. 

Firebomb? Think of the emissions, Ronny 

[dave the builder]

Blimey 
seems all the members of OOF are running older boilers   
best hide this thread or we'll have extinction rebellion nutcases gluing themselves to TB's driveway 

I don't consider 7 years to be old, especially as it came with a ten year guarantee 

I would do exactly what I would do if I came across them on the M25. Drive over them.

Most of them are married to old boilers too. 

they don't offer a government  "FREE money" grant to swap them for a newer model 

[ronnyd]

I've got a Johnson & Starley warm air unit, with a separate water heater. All fired by gas. Now, that is Retro.   I'm surprised Greta hasn't been round to firebomb me. 

Firebomb? Think of the emissions, Ronny 

Be ok if they use E10 Steve. 

[Auto Addict]

I had a woman with a heavy hardly decipherable accent phone me up yesterday pertaining to be some government scheme offering grants to replace my boiler.

Told her I haven't got a boiler, I've got a fireplace with a coal fire.

She asked me how old it was, I told her 250 years old.

She then asked if I was a homeowner, I told her I was a caretaker.

She asked me what that was, I replied it meant I take care not to fall for scam phone calls.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Brilliant. 

[ronnyd]

I had a woman with a heavy hardly decipherable accent phone me up yesterday pertaining to be some government scheme offering grants to replace my boiler.

Told her I haven't got a boiler, I've got a fireplace with a coal fire.

She asked me how old it was, I told her 250 years old.

She then asked if I was a homeowner, I told her I was a caretaker.

She asked me what that was, I replied it meant I take care not to fall for scam phone calls.

I seem to be their sucker of choice at the moment. Three calls in the last three days, all from slightly differing numbers. Haven't told them to f@ck off....yet. 

[YZ250]

My Mrs isn't happy with anything less than melting point when it comes to heating so a heat pump wouldn't suit her at all. I'm sat in shorts and she'll sneakily up the temperature on the phone app thingy.
She's the only person I know that has her heated seat on full for the entire four and a half hour trip to Cornwall. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

My Mrs isn't happy with anything less than melting point when it comes to heating so a heat pump wouldn't suit her at all. I'm sat in shorts and she'll sneakily up the temperature on the phone app thingy.
She's the only person I know that has her heated seat on full for the entire four and a half hour trip to Cornwall.

Is there a smell of singed hair in your car?

[YZ250]

My Mrs isn't happy with anything less than melting point when it comes to heating so a heat pump wouldn't suit her at all. I'm sat in shorts and she'll sneakily up the temperature on the phone app thingy.
She's the only person I know that has her heated seat on full for the entire four and a half hour trip to Cornwall.

Is there a smell of singed hair in your car?

No hair in that area to singe.   

[Drewomega]

 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

My Mrs isn't happy with anything less than melting point when it comes to heating so a heat pump wouldn't suit her at all. I'm sat in shorts and she'll sneakily up the temperature on the phone app thingy.
She's the only person I know that has her heated seat on full for the entire four and a half hour trip to Cornwall.

Is there a smell of singed hair in your car?

No hair in that area to singe.   

The same applies (used to apply) to the girls running the 110M hurdles.

The smell of singed pubes means they have run their best race.

In the 1970's I'm told the East German and Soviet girls could get a small blaze going down there.