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Author Topic: Worth a punt for extra grunt?  (Read 1931 times)

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Rangie

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #15 on: 19 November 2021, 14:03:01 »

Wouldn't do it on any vehicle of mine, I'd sooner by something that was more powerful as standard.
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #16 on: 19 November 2021, 14:29:54 »

£100 off at present. £229 instead of £329.

Tuning box and not a bespoke remap.

Likely to work or snake oil? I tried something similar from Superchips a while back that made absolutely no difference, so I sent it back for a refund.

Which engine parameters are changed with a remap/tuning box?



https://tdi-tuning.com/en-gb/car/vauxhall/signum/28-turbo-v6-ecotec-246-bhp-250-ps-184-kw-350-nm-258-lbft/crtd4-uni-channel-petrol-tuning-box-chip

I have the source code for several variants of the Superchips code for the LC. They claim 500 BHP (up from a standard 377 BHP).

There were minimal changes in any of the maps. What they did was increase the "target boost" levels at WOT from 7-10psi (depending on RPM) up to 15psi. In very rough terms 50 percent more air in is a 50% increase in power out - assuming the injectors can supply sufficient fuel to burn all that extra air.

Given that this isn't a full remap, I'd expect this to be similar.

You know more than me on this subject.

They give before and after power and torque figures, but my guess is they have not run the car on a dyno.

They probably use Vauxhall  stats for the 'before' figures and there own 'think of a large number' figures for the 'after' power and torque figures.
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Raeturbo

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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #18 on: 19 November 2021, 15:07:56 »

I would use these people, they are very good👍

                https://www.celtictuning.co.uk/services/performance-stats/vauxhall/signum-2004-2008/petrol/2-8t-v6-246-bhp-2004-2008-ECU-remap-chiptuning/stage-1#t3-content

Thanks, Rae.

I've heard good things about Celtic. :y

However, I like the idea of a box that I can remove myself if I encounter problems, rather than have to drive to wherever the mapper is located, to sort things out.

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Raeturbo

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #19 on: 19 November 2021, 15:14:10 »

Fair enough my son had his XF done there and it has been perfect. Never heard any complaints about them. It’s better than a box, ignition timing, injector duration, and boost thresholds are all tweaked.  They give a good guarantee too👍
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #20 on: 19 November 2021, 16:04:35 »

£100 off at present. £229 instead of £329.

Tuning box and not a bespoke remap.

Likely to work or snake oil? I tried something similar from Superchips a while back that made absolutely no difference, so I sent it back for a refund.

Which engine parameters are changed with a remap/tuning box?



https://tdi-tuning.com/en-gb/car/vauxhall/signum/28-turbo-v6-ecotec-246-bhp-250-ps-184-kw-350-nm-258-lbft/crtd4-uni-channel-petrol-tuning-box-chip

I have the source code for several variants of the Superchips code for the LC. They claim 500 BHP (up from a standard 377 BHP).

There were minimal changes in any of the maps. What they did was increase the "target boost" levels at WOT from 7-10psi (depending on RPM) up to 15psi. In very rough terms 50 percent more air in is a 50% increase in power out - assuming the injectors can supply sufficient fuel to burn all that extra air.

Given that this isn't a full remap, I'd expect this to be similar.

You know more than me on this subject.

They give before and after power and torque figures, but my guess is they have not run the car on a dyno.

They probably use Vauxhall  stats for the 'before' figures and there own 'think of a large number' figures for the 'after' power and torque figures.

Remember, a box is not a re-map, its a simple microcontroller that modifies a few sensor outputs to get more power. The main ECU is running the factory MAP and thinks its operating to factory spec, it will even work in closed loop and control mixture and timing as before. So with this in the ECU thinks its injecting less fuel and thinks there is less air going in than there actually is.  :y

Not nearly as good as a proper map  ;D
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #21 on: 19 November 2021, 16:23:47 »

I suppose picking a good 'mapper' is like picking a good builder.

Sounds easy but...... ::) ::) ::)

As Rae says Celtic have a good reputation, as do Viezu.
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #22 on: 19 November 2021, 16:25:45 »

Fair enough my son had his XF done there and it has been perfect. Never heard any complaints about them. It’s better than a box, ignition timing, injector duration, and boost thresholds are all tweaked.  They give a good guarantee too👍

Which XF does he have Rae?. Diesel, or one with a proper engine. ::) ::) ;)
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LC0112G

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #23 on: 19 November 2021, 16:37:27 »


Remember, a box is not a re-map, its a simple microcontroller that modifies a few sensor outputs to get more power. The main ECU is running the factory MAP and thinks its operating to factory spec, it will even work in closed loop and control mixture and timing as before. So with this in the ECU thinks its injecting less fuel and thinks there is less air going in than there actually is.  :y

Not nearly as good as a proper map  ;D

Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. But then I think that about all after market re-maps (and similar) tinkering.
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LC0112G

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #24 on: 19 November 2021, 17:03:28 »

You know more than me on this subject.

They give before and after power and torque figures, but my guess is they have not run the car on a dyno.

They probably use Vauxhall  stats for the 'before' figures and there own 'think of a large number' figures for the 'after' power and torque figures.

Torque is king. The only thing that matters to me is peak torque, how flat the torque curve is from tick-over to red line, and what red line is.

Torque is basically governed by how much air you can get into the cylinder. On a normally aspirated engine, that's down to cylinder head, intake and exhaust efficiency. There isn't much you can 'chip'. On a turbo engine, the same things matter, but the turbo boost also forces more air in. 1 bar(14psi) boost means you've got double the pressure of air in the inlet manifold, so you get (roughly) double the volume of air going in. Your 2L N/A engine can therefore behave like a 4L N/A engine at 1bar boost. Or a 3.6L twin turbo can behave like a 7.2L N/A with 1 bar of boost.

Torque increases more or less linearly with boost. The boost is normally electronically controlled, so you can up the boost by chipping the engine. Torque is usually fairly constant with RPM until you get to the top end of the RPM scale when it tails off due to reducing inlet efficiency (valves not open long enough to get a full charge in).

Power is just (Torque * RPM). So given that torque is constant-ish up till probably 75% of red line, power increases to a peak and then tails off again. The power curve is very rarely anything like a flat line - it'll have a peak in it somewhere just above where torque starts to tail off.  Cars with highly tuned inlet manifolds (like the old N/A F1 cars) typically have a very peaky power curve. They produce loads of power when on song, but only over a very narrow RPM range.

So on a turbo car, you basically just up the boost to get more power. And hope the rest of the components can handle the extra pressure, fuel flow, heat generated, stress etc.

What these guys do is anyones guess, but to get more than a few % increase they must be fooling the ECU into allowing more boost. I can see how it could work using the method MarkDTM says, but I'd like to see a proper torque curve before accepting any power increase figures. You can tune a car to produce silly power, but if the result is a narrow torque band then the car becomes undrivable in the real world.
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #25 on: 20 November 2021, 00:01:28 »

My old 1999 BMW 530d had some sort of box plugged in and it pulled like a train so I left it alone.  :y
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Raeturbo

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #26 on: 20 November 2021, 01:30:37 »

Fair enough my son had his XF done there and it has been perfect. Never heard any complaints about them. It’s better than a box, ignition timing, injector duration, and boost thresholds are all tweaked.  They give a good guarantee too👍

Which XF does he have Rae?. Diesel, or one with a proper engine. ::) ::) ;)
                He has the 2012 xfs diesel decatted and de dpf nice dollop of torque there Mal but a short lived power band.   I had the Evo properly mapped on the rollers with a good tuner I’ve known personally for many years and we tweaked it on the road with det cans after. I’m running 1.75 bar with 8.8.1 comp ratio but with lots of supporting mods too.
 
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Viral_Jim

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #27 on: 20 November 2021, 22:03:10 »

Those type of numbers were frequently seen from 2.8 Saab 9-3's on the uksaabs forum with no issues, so I'm sure the mighty Sig can handle it.

As others have said, I'd go for a proper remap though. :y
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Worth a punt for extra grunt?
« Reply #28 on: 21 November 2021, 16:51:55 »

https://youtu.be/I_sIRoPgFFI

Looks like the people who sell the tuning box are fibbers. :-X :-\

Interesting video if you have the time to watch.

I've sent an email to Celtic for more details and cost. As others have said a tuning box seems limited as to what it can do.

 
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