Omega Owners Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Search the maintenance guides for answers to 99.999% of Omega questions

Pages: 1 [2] 3  All   Go Down

Author Topic: Range anxiety?  (Read 2338 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Doctor Gollum

  • Get A Life!!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • In a colds and darks puddleses
  • Posts: 28089
  • If you can't eat them, join them...
    • Feetses.
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #15 on: 20 April 2022, 12:45:09 »

Very possibly. The older ones certainly aren't known to be paradigms of reliability  ;D

The other thing that will have weeded out a lot of older ones is the secondary market for converting classics to EV. The amount these companies charge means that the price point where a tesla becomes more economical to break for bits vs keep on the road is much higher than most/all similar ICE cars.
Nor are the new ones.
Logged
Onanists always think outside the box.

Viral_Jim

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Telford
  • Posts: 4246
    • Too many, mostly broken
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #16 on: 20 April 2022, 14:43:29 »

.

What is interesting is the battery types being used, at the moment there is a trade off on charging speed plus price, against life (VAG having massive issues with upto double figure range loss every year on the cells!).

It will be interesting to see how the iD3 copes in this regard, I'm going to be quite a heavy user in EV terms at least (lease is 60k miles over 3yrs and I expect to use all of them). I've put a bit over 6k on it since the start of the year and so far I can't see any degredation. In fact range has gone up a bit due to warmer weather - 195-205 miles, up to about 210-215 now.

Is there any sense as to whether it's an age issue, or is it more about miles traveled? Mine rarely gets rapid charged, which will probably help.
« Last Edit: 20 April 2022, 14:48:37 by Viral_Jim »
Logged

Marks DTM Calib

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • West Bridgford
  • Posts: 33813
  • Git!
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #17 on: 21 April 2022, 08:07:33 »

Its very dependent on how the manufacturer designs it.

So the ID3 can wring every last Ah out of the battery, so fully charging and discharging is not good, iPace and Tesla for instance show 100% charge when the battery is actually at about 95% and similarly show 0 at around 5% charge (Tesla will give the extra 5% in an emergency if needed). Consequently the battery Ah is quite a lot more than the useable Ah which impacts cost but, gives massive gains to battery life. Its this battery management which is hurting VW, but of course changing it impacts range (although so does the battery degrade)

Obviously fast charge is not good either, that said, 100-150kW is not so bad if the battery it pre-heated (or the Battery Charge Control Module is capable of limiting the charge current until the battery has warmed up)

Logged

Doctor Gollum

  • Get A Life!!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • In a colds and darks puddleses
  • Posts: 28089
  • If you can't eat them, join them...
    • Feetses.
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #18 on: 21 April 2022, 10:04:08 »

Which is something that Tesla seems to be mindful of.

MG seems to have taken the opposite approach, where only 40% iirc of the already under achieving battery is recommended as apparently the battery life drops off a cliff if you charge it over 80% and let it go below 40%. Which makes the whole thing a total waste of time.
Logged
Onanists always think outside the box.

LC0112G

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • 0
  • Posts: 2439
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #19 on: 25 April 2022, 17:49:03 »

Generally it's best to keep the batteries in the 20% to 80% charge range. Perhaps 15%-85% at a push. That means you can only realistically use 60%-70% of the batteries claimed charge, and therefore can only use perhaps 70% of the claimed range - so in this case 700km.

It takes almost as long to charge from 80% to 100% as it does to go from 20% to 80% due to the heating of the batteries as they charge. Similarly you have to be careful how fast you charge below 20%.

Charging networks aren't there yet either - there are 50KW, 150KW and 300KW public chargers. These will take 12 hours, 4 hours and 2 hours respectively to get a 1KWh battery from 20% to 80% charge. Home charging from a 24KW 3 phase charger will take 24 hours.

I drove back from the French Alps on Saturday. 810 miles (1300km) in just over 13 hours (including the Chunnel) with one fuel/McD stop in Reims.
Logged

LC0112G

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • 0
  • Posts: 2439
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #20 on: 25 April 2022, 17:58:22 »

You have to be a bit cautious with the battery tech, and I suspect batteries are not the answer for EVs given the advances in Hydrogen that are happening.

I don't think Hydrogen can ever work. It's energy density is very low, it's difficult to transport, needs to be liquified or compressed at stupidly low temperatures, and is expensive to produce. There is virtually no accessible natural hydrogen in/on the earth, and producing it from things that are available (water/natural gas) is energy intensive.
Logged

STEMO

  • Omega Lord
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8305
    • Astra 1.6 diesel
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #21 on: 25 April 2022, 18:14:06 »


There is an article in todays money mail comparing the cost of EV v petrol. The price of fuel has rocketed but so has the price of electricity. EVs are expensive to buy. Blah, blah. They do not include a comparison with diesels because, mile for mile, they are cheaper to run. But, of course, they run on devil juice.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10750733/Electric-car-running-costs-600-cheaper-year-run-compared-petrol.html
Logged
Diesel till I die

Viral_Jim

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Telford
  • Posts: 4246
    • Too many, mostly broken
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #22 on: 25 April 2022, 21:48:32 »

On a pure cost basis EVs only *really* work for company car drivers at the moment due to the tax breaks, but that is changing. But then I've never really considered new ev Vs new ice car, because it's never occurred to me to buy another new car. I suspect once scale is achieved on the ev side, price parity with ice cars will start to be seen. After all, certain models (mini for example) are pretty much there already.

It's also important to remember that mainstream manufacturers don't want ev technology to be cost effective yet. Because they've collectively got billions tied up in ICE engine technology R&D assets that they'd have to write down if it became clear electric was more popular/viable than ICEs.

As for usability, I've driven mine from Shrewsbury to Birmingham to Dumfries today. 275 miles all up, with one 15min stop in Kendall to add some range, take a pee and get a coffee.

I honestly don't think I could have done it more than 10min quicker in an ICE car; my speed was limited by it being the M6, rather than a need to conserve range. Car is currently charging for free in Tesco car park across the road while I finish my steak and chips. After I've had a kip, the car will be fully charged and might take me home on a single charge, except it can't, because I'd pi$$ myself, so I'll probably stop for 15mins around Preston and get home with 75miles to spare.

In terms of cost, excluding what I've had for free, my overnight charge (adding 70%) will be 25p/kWh, or about 6.5p/mile, the motorway chargers have been about 40p/kWh, so 11p/mile ish. Most of the time my cost is much less.

There will always be people who want to drive 1000miles with only one pi$$ break, or tow a 3500kg trailer 400miles in a go, and yes, EVs probably won't ever be for them. But given that the average UK car does 8000miles/yr and the average journey length is 8miles, ev's will certainly fit just fine for the vast majority of use cases. As a commuting tool, I honestly prefer mine to an ICE, much less NVH, especially in stop start traffic and going to a petrol station now just feels like a fu€king hassle compared to plugging in a lead either at home or at the office.
Logged

STEMO

  • Omega Lord
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8305
    • Astra 1.6 diesel
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #23 on: 25 April 2022, 22:06:12 »

On a pure cost basis EVs only *really* work for company car drivers at the moment due to the tax breaks, but that is changing. But then I've never really considered new ev Vs new ice car, because it's never occurred to me to buy another new car. I suspect once scale is achieved on the ev side, price parity with ice cars will start to be seen. After all, certain models (mini for example) are pretty much there already.

It's also important to remember that mainstream manufacturers don't want ev technology to be cost effective yet. Because they've collectively got billions tied up in ICE engine technology R&D assets that they'd have to write down if it became clear electric was more popular/viable than ICEs.

As for usability, I've driven mine from Shrewsbury to Birmingham to Dumfries today. 275 miles all up, with one 15min stop in Kendall to add some range, take a pee and get a coffee.

I honestly don't think I could have done it more than 10min quicker in an ICE car; my speed was limited by it being the M6, rather than a need to conserve range. Car is currently charging for free in Tesco car park across the road while I finish my steak and chips. After I've had a kip, the car will be fully charged and might take me home on a single charge, except it can't, because I'd pi$$ myself, so I'll probably stop for 15mins around Preston and get home with 75miles to spare.

In terms of cost, excluding what I've had for free, my overnight charge (adding 70%) will be 25p/kWh, or about 6.5p/mile, the motorway chargers have been about 40p/kWh, so 11p/mile ish. Most of the time my cost is much less.

There will always be people who want to drive 1000miles with only one pi$$ break, or tow a 3500kg trailer 400miles in a go, and yes, EVs probably won't ever be for them. But given that the average UK car does 8000miles/yr and the average journey length is 8miles, ev's will certainly fit just fine for the vast majority of use cases. As a commuting tool, I honestly prefer mine to an ICE, much less NVH, especially in stop start traffic and going to a petrol station now just feels like a fu€king hassle compared to plugging in a lead either at home or at the office.
The software had a good day, then?
Logged
Diesel till I die

Sir Tigger KC

  • Get A Life!!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • West Dorset
  • Posts: 23423
    • 2 Fords
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #24 on: 25 April 2022, 22:45:05 »

What electric car do you drive now Jim?  ???

I think you had/have an eGolf?  :-\
Logged
RIP Paul 'Luvvie' Lovejoy

Politically homeless ......

Viral_Jim

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Telford
  • Posts: 4246
    • Too many, mostly broken
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #25 on: 25 April 2022, 23:20:01 »

What electric car do you drive now Jim?  ???

I think you had/have an eGolf?  :-\

I did, but had to give it back when I changed job.

I now have an ID3, which tbh wouldn't have been my first choice, but it was basically the only affordable EV available in late 2021 when I needed to lease one. Its ok, better than the e-golf on performance, range and interior space but worse on interior quality and software. As Ste eluded to, it has its quirks and the lane assist will actively try and murder you on british b roads, but it works well on motorways.

On balance I would struggle to recommend it on the basis of the sh!t software alone, but as an overall package (0-60 in c 7.5s, 220+ miles real world range) its very good value. 
Logged

Marks DTM Calib

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • West Bridgford
  • Posts: 33813
  • Git!
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #26 on: 26 April 2022, 07:58:29 »

You have to be a bit cautious with the battery tech, and I suspect batteries are not the answer for EVs given the advances in Hydrogen that are happening.

I don't think Hydrogen can ever work. It's energy density is very low, it's difficult to transport, needs to be liquified or compressed at stupidly low temperatures, and is expensive to produce. There is virtually no accessible natural hydrogen in/on the earth, and producing it from things that are available (water/natural gas) is energy intensive.

It can and it does, the volume it takes up on the car is much less than that of a battery and for greater range.
Logged

LC0112G

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • 0
  • Posts: 2439
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #27 on: 26 April 2022, 10:46:09 »

You have to be a bit cautious with the battery tech, and I suspect batteries are not the answer for EVs given the advances in Hydrogen that are happening.

I don't think Hydrogen can ever work. It's energy density is very low, it's difficult to transport, needs to be liquified or compressed at stupidly low temperatures, and is expensive to produce. There is virtually no accessible natural hydrogen in/on the earth, and producing it from things that are available (water/natural gas) is energy intensive.

It can and it does, the volume it takes up on the car is much less than that of a battery and for greater range.

Care to provide any evidence?

A 100KWh lithium battery will weigh around 600-650Kg, and have a volume of about 400L.

1Kg of Hydrogen will perhaps get you 100km. Therefore to get a useable range you're looking at a 5Kg tank. Trouble is, a tank to hold 5Kg of hydrogen will typically weigh around eight to ten times that of the gas it contains - so 50kg. And it's internal volume will be about 200L, which is 3 or 4 times the volume of an equivalent petrol/diesel tank. The Hydrogen in such a tank is typically at 5000-10000psi when full (lpg is only 100-300psi). You also need to add on the weight and volume of the fuel cell used to convert the Hydrogen to electricity - typically another 50-60Kg and perhaps another 40-50L.

So yes fuel cell is lighter and less volume than EV, but both are worse than an equivalent ICE car. If the aim is to reduce pollution, then you've then got to account for production and distribution of the Hydrogen, which is far from easy or environmentally friendly. Not much use in using electricity to produce Hydrogen, and then transporting the hydrogen to a fuel station to fill the car, and then the car converts Hydrogen to electricity to move it. May just as well skip the Hydrogen stage altogether and use the electricity to power the car directly. Which is the main reason I don't think fuel cell cars will prevail.

Logged

STEMO

  • Omega Lord
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8305
    • Astra 1.6 diesel
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #28 on: 26 April 2022, 11:09:03 »

I have no doubt that wifey will end up with an EV. When the purchase price comes down, when the range is up around 400 miles, when electricity isn't such a stupid price and when the public/work charging infrastructure is at a decent level.
So not yet.
Logged
Diesel till I die

Migv6 le Frog Fan

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Webs End.
  • Posts: 11733
  • Nicole's Papa
    • 3.2 Elite. Boxster. C1.
    • View Profile
Re: Range anxiety?
« Reply #29 on: 26 April 2022, 17:54:55 »

Middle of next century then.  ;D
Logged
Women are like an AR35. lovely things, but nobody really understands how they work.
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.038 seconds with 18 queries.