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Author Topic: V6 top end rattle  (Read 6057 times)

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Diamond Black Geezer

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V6 top end rattle
« on: 24 September 2020, 12:03:40 »

As per...

Fairly loud clatter / rattle very much like a diesel.

Timing overdue slightly (few thou, this is in hand soon as I can get to the very nice chap)
Oil weep (long standing leak, always suspected rear crank seal)
Coolant weep (getting worse, shot up to about a litre in the last week, versus maybe 1 litre a month-2month)
Oil pickup strainer cleaned earlier this year
Regular oil changes, last service only a couple of months ago

Concerned it's beginnings of timing slipping, however other posts on here suggest oil starvation, tappets.

Would have had her off the road long time ago but she's in daily use by other half as District Nurse, so ploughs through 1k miles a month. In spite of the above runs sweet as a nut, good mpg, smooth.

This clatter is forcing my hand though I've had enough, don't want to leave her like that if it's going to be serious. Thoughts?
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dave the builder

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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #1 on: 24 September 2020, 12:15:50 »

What oil are you using ?
Trade club semi 10w40  :-\
5w30 fully synthetic oil doesn't have enough dinosaur juice in for older, high mile engines  and weeps past seals etc, lower pressure from the pump.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #2 on: 24 September 2020, 12:29:08 »

good suggestion, on the last of the 20l tubs of genuine GM trade club 10w40, always had nothing but that in her.  :y
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #3 on: 24 September 2020, 12:49:51 »

Sticky lifters would be my guess.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #4 on: 24 September 2020, 13:04:47 »

good  :y

basically so long as I can rule out timing I'm a happy boy. Going to get some Forte Top End or similar off Amazon in a sec, see what that does.  :y
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #5 on: 24 September 2020, 13:28:46 »

Sudden coolant use could be a sign of hbv failure with the recent change in temperature...  :-\
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #6 on: 24 September 2020, 13:33:05 »

I have had HBV at back of my mind, however it's not that old. I do have an aftermarket one as 'reserve' so will probably change it for that just to eliminate it from my inquiries.  :y


Just to add, this clatter only occurs on a warm/hot engine. Which I would assume (possibly wrongly) that rules out leaky exhaust gaskets / slipping timing.
« Last Edit: 24 September 2020, 13:40:06 by Diamond Black Geezer »
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #7 on: 24 September 2020, 13:51:54 »

good  :y

basically so long as I can rule out timing I'm a happy boy. Going to get some Forte Top End or similar off Amazon in a sec, see what that does.  :y


just add some ATF about 500miles before the oil change.
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #8 on: 24 September 2020, 14:06:38 »

nice tip. Heard people say a splash of diesel (seems a little extreme/scary) but always a bit anxious when "I reckon/my mate's brother says he swears by..." etc..

But coming from you I know that will be from experience and knowledge, ta  :y

Don't think it's timing starting to die then, Nick?
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #9 on: 24 September 2020, 14:32:32 »

nice tip. Heard people say a splash of diesel (seems a little extreme/scary) but always a bit anxious when "I reckon/my mate's brother says he swears by..." etc..

But coming from you I know that will be from experience and knowledge, ta  :y

Don't think it's timing starting to die then, Nick?




Diesel will just dilute the oil.


ATF is a thin oil with lots of detergent, and that's what all the expensive cures add. You probably already have some, so although it isn't quite as effective it will do the job.


Cam timing doesn't gradually slip. It shouldn't change AT ALL between belt changes. But if something fails, you have a big problem. It might be worth peeking inside the belt cover for visible damage
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #10 on: 24 September 2020, 14:42:45 »

nice tip. Heard people say a splash of diesel (seems a little extreme/scary) but always a bit anxious when "I reckon/my mate's brother says he swears by..." etc..

But coming from you I know that will be from experience and knowledge, ta  :y

Don't think it's timing starting to die then, Nick?




Diesel will just dilute the oil.


ATF is a thin oil with lots of detergent, and that's what all the expensive cures add. You probably already have some, so although it isn't quite as effective it will do the job.


Cam timing doesn't gradually slip. It shouldn't change AT ALL between belt changes. But if something fails, you have a big problem. It might be worth peeking inside the belt cover for visible damage

confirms what a mate of mine well-versed in Vauxhall 6s and other motors said.

Even as a matter of course, yes going to have a look at the belt/general signs of wear behind the cover, not a long job to get to it.

Do have some ATF about, probably not enough for a full 'box change so may be useful for that as you say. Checked oil change done June, 3.8k ago. 
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #11 on: 24 September 2020, 14:50:50 »


Even as a matter of course, yes going to have a look at the belt/general signs of wear behind the cover, not a long job to get to it.

Do have some ATF about, probably not enough for a full 'box change so may be useful for that as you say. Checked oil change done June, 3.8k ago.


So the next change isn't due for another 8k miles, or 6 months...... :)
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #12 on: 24 September 2020, 15:00:00 »

You have checked the oil level?
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #13 on: 24 September 2020, 15:02:50 »

Does sound like comically low oil, I'll grant you. But sadly yes, checked. She gets checked every few days what with this oil leak. Bob between max and min as per usual.  :y
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #14 on: 24 September 2020, 15:12:47 »

 :y
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #15 on: 24 September 2020, 15:48:02 »

Need to run mine on top mark on dipstick as anything around mid point or lower always brings up the " Oil Check",so interesting you run yours on mid point
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #16 on: 24 September 2020, 15:49:46 »

To be more accurate - mine also brings up Oil lack or Oil Level when she hits mid point. Technically she's a little above mid point, at which point I chuck a glug in (I guess 100-200ml or so)
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #17 on: 24 September 2020, 16:13:53 »

Thanks for clarifying ....sounds like mine  :y
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #18 on: 24 September 2020, 16:16:15 »

Need to run mine on top mark on dipstick as anything around mid point or lower always brings up the " Oil Check",so interesting you run yours on mid point


Mine was the same, which meant I learnt to ignore the low oil light. I saw no need to add 100ml of oil, in between annual 8 to 10k oil changes, just to bring the level back to the top mark.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #19 on: 24 September 2020, 18:17:05 »

Given my mileage I tend to check thinks weekly and try to remember to just "add a bit" if required
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #20 on: 24 September 2020, 20:42:13 »


Even as a matter of course, yes going to have a look at the belt/general signs of wear behind the cover, not a long job to get to it.

Do have some ATF about, probably not enough for a full 'box change so may be useful for that as you say. Checked oil change done June, 3.8k ago.


So the next change isn't due for another 8k miles, or 6 months...... :)


 Just whack, 1/2 litre of ATF in it now, give it good run for day, plus decent daily usage, then full oil change in a week's time...
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #21 on: 25 September 2020, 22:14:04 »

Right, upon examination of the OS bank of plugs, because why not ..I discover oil in the plugwells! Not a huge amount and it's not got up the HTs yet, so the coil pack is safe. Point being...

It's clearly time to redo the rocker gaskets. I have the rubber in stock, but no black goo. This needs sourcing asap, plenty online but need it now, can't really be waiting for postage, as I normally would.

Passed a Vx dealer on way to work today, they can't get any till weds...ish ( ::) )
At work we have Granville RTV and Loctite SI 5980 black sealant. I know Loctite's 5699 is recommended on here but can't see a difference between that and this 5980. Thoughts? Ta in advance.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #22 on: 25 September 2020, 22:18:47 »

I believe 5980 is what Helfrods stock... :y
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #23 on: 25 September 2020, 22:22:02 »

I believe 5980 is what Helfrods stock... :y

This is true, as I say that's what we got at work  :y it looks fine, but want to be sure.  :)
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #24 on: 25 September 2020, 22:34:20 »

Meh, I used a smear of ordinary clear silicone on mine. Same as I do on every other joint on engines.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #25 on: 25 September 2020, 22:38:35 »

That's a surprise! Right that's fine then. Because it's up against fairly harsh conditions and temperatures I wasn't sure if 'lesser' sealants would just give up after a while (genuine Vx was used last time and that's not really lasted as long as I'd have liked at approx 40K)
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #26 on: 25 September 2020, 22:56:47 »

40K? You could time it so you do the cam cover gaskets with the cam belt.  ::)
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #27 on: 25 September 2020, 23:14:18 »

40K? You could time it so you do the cam cover gaskets with the cam belt.  ::)

Haha. Yeah not a bad thought! About the same interval for my wiperblades and a wash n wax  too  ;D ;D
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #28 on: 26 September 2020, 07:23:16 »

Meh, I used a smear of ordinary clear silicone on mine. Same as I do on every other joint on engines.


 I know and you know it's the same stuff, made the same way, put in different size tubes, and charged, but the tube that has automotive on it and is smaller, cost 4
 Times more than the Household tube,.. 

You know the rules sir... :)
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #29 on: 26 September 2020, 08:57:24 »

same as the 'motorbike' 10w40 in a 1 litre tub is twice the price of the 'car' 10w40 in a 5 litre tub...

Oh, update, it's 2 mins to 9am, this morning I got the OS rocker cover off, small area of likely oil leakage, thats fine,
done a pressure test (15psi) on the coolant system to trace a leak, small weep at the thermostat (done 3-4 years ago) and the waterpump is leaking (done 3-4 years ago)

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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #30 on: 26 September 2020, 09:20:38 »

Thermostat whilst the top is apart and water pump when you do the cambelt  ;)
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #31 on: 26 September 2020, 09:25:14 »

Id say so aye, though the stat is a weep but the water pump is a drip, so probably going to whip the pump off today, gobbo it up with grey sealent, see if that cures it. banking on that it's just the larger o-ring seal, rather than the actual internal seal. If it doesnt cure it, I've lost nothing, and will replace whole unit when timing's done, whenever that is.  :y
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #32 on: 26 September 2020, 10:17:06 »

That won't work for the waterpump so save your time ;)
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #33 on: 26 September 2020, 10:19:08 »

Id say so aye, though the stat is a weep but the water pump is a drip, so probably going to whip the pump off today, gobbo it up with grey sealent, see if that cures it. banking on that it's just the larger o-ring seal, rather than the actual internal seal. If it doesnt cure it, I've lost nothing, and will replace whole unit when timing's done, whenever that is.  :y


dismantling an O-ring joint just to add sealant is a textbook example of futile optimism. Fit new O-rings as a minimum, with a little of whatever sealant you favour. I know that shouldn't be necessary,  but on a 20 year old car practical is more important than theory.


You know how much I hate messing about, so I wouldfit a new pump.
« Last Edit: 26 September 2020, 10:25:46 by Nick W »
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #34 on: 26 September 2020, 10:52:21 »

My only worry is car needs to be assembled, shakedown ready for her, tuesday. If I order one now they're saying here weds.

I do appreciate your points. I want to stick genuine GM pump on, with new o rings, correct sealant etc, as per textbook, I always try to do the best job I can. But I'm against time. My next thought is run with the leak, and whenever the pump gets here, soon as I have a day or two (time for sealant to dry, another time issue) then get it done then...just costs me coolant. Ugh.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #35 on: 26 September 2020, 11:24:33 »

My only worry is car needs to be assembled, shakedown ready for her, tuesday. If I order one now they're saying here weds.

I do appreciate your points. I want to stick genuine GM pump on, with new o rings, correct sealant etc, as per textbook, I always try to do the best job I can. But I'm against time. My next thought is run with the leak, and whenever the pump gets here, soon as I have a day or two (time for sealant to dry, another time issue) then get it done then...just costs me coolant. Ugh.


 So your going to remove the w/pump, chuck some sealent on it, then next week remove it all again and fit a new one,..  why not just get all the parts you require, then do it all as one job. Or is that me being practical and overthinking.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #36 on: 26 September 2020, 11:58:34 »

No. I agree, it's stupid. Depends if you need the car back on the road or not. Which I do.

I've got one on order, it's theoretically here Monday midday, so if u do the camcovers this weekend, water pump and other leaks Monday, 24hrs to dry Tuesday then car back on road weds.  :y

And I'm at work all of those days too!  :D ;D
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #37 on: 26 September 2020, 12:14:34 »

No. I agree, it's stupid. Depends if you need the car back on the road or not. Which I do.

I've got one on order, it's theoretically here Monday midday, so if u do the camcovers this weekend, water pump and other leaks Monday, 24hrs to dry Tuesday then car back on road weds.  :y



By the time you've put the rest of the car back together, the sealant will have gone off. If it doesn't, use one that does.


You're not filling a 100mm long by 5mm gap with the stuff to replace a thick gasket(this is standard procedure on old V8 inlet manifolds), but adding a trace to aid the O-ring.


Alternatively, if the leaks are as small as you mentioned just keep filling it up with water(lack of anti-freeze's long term attributes won't matter for a few days) until you have ALL the parts and the time.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #38 on: 26 September 2020, 12:33:24 »

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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #39 on: 26 September 2020, 12:48:35 »

Tube of this. Does everything.
 https://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-general-purpose-silicone-sealant-black-310ml/2279h


Agreed. While I generally prefer to use black because it looks better, clear IS better for temperatures because of its lack of pigment.  That was advice from an Ilmor engine builder; who said their engines had head gaskets, and every other joint was sealed with Dow Corning 797 clear. The same stuff I was buying by the gross for the window company I worked for at the time.



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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #40 on: 26 September 2020, 13:07:17 »

Whatever about Dow Corning, black or grey high temp RTV should be available at any local factor. In the case of the water pump a new o-ring on clean mating surfaces should seal by itself. So all you're seeking to achieve is to stick the o-ring in position on the pump so that it doesn't get displaced and pinched when you bolt it up.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #41 on: 26 September 2020, 14:13:00 »

whatever sealant you use it won't cure a leak if it's leaking from the bearing or weep hole
and that's where pumps tend to leak
might be masked and running down ,making it look like it's the mating seal
i'd just top it up,carry water to top it up with, check the level every time you drive the car and fit a new pump as soon as possible
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #42 on: 26 September 2020, 15:46:55 »

This ^.  :y
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #43 on: 26 September 2020, 16:59:52 »

Tube of this. Does everything.
 https://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-general-purpose-silicone-sealant-black-310ml/2279h


Agreed. While I generally prefer to use black because it looks better, clear IS better for temperatures because of its lack of pigment.  That was advice from an Ilmor engine builder; who said their engines had head gaskets, and every other joint was sealed with Dow Corning 797 clear. The same stuff I was buying by the gross for the window company I worked for at the time.


 I agree with you 100% sir,  The gentleman who instructed me about sealant was also an engine builder, from Northamptonshire, but for the other company, Cosworth.   

 
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #44 on: 29 September 2020, 18:55:10 »

Well....

Still doing it  ::)

Changed waterpump, left 24hrs for sealant to go odd. Rocker cover gaskets done as discovered oil in the NS plugwells. (wells were dry when I did the spark plugs a few months ago. So caught in time)
Nipped up jubbly clip, that's cured the coolant leak up front, as has doing the waterpump.
Car was run for 30mins to get all airlocks out of coolant.
Going for test drive later, see if she quietens down any.

Sounds like a rasp, or grating, becomes audible at approx 2krpm and 'loud' at about 3krpm.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #45 on: 29 September 2020, 19:05:46 »

have you tried running it briefly with the aux belt removed just to confirm its not alternator,air con or power steering .or even the aux tensioner pulley
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #46 on: 29 September 2020, 19:41:35 »

Haven't, but happy to. Pulley regreased during strip down.
Definitely higher up though I'd say about where the thermostat is. Which is odd. But around the two front cylinders at any rate.
Had a mate suggest excessive lifter clearances may be causing it.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #47 on: 29 September 2020, 20:16:08 »

its just that noises dont always originate from where they sound to be and at least you would eliminate any belt driven items then.
other possibility of course is cambelt pulley bearings .you mentioned a grating sound whereas lifters usually tick or have a tapping noise
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #48 on: 29 September 2020, 20:21:30 »

its just that noises dont always originate from where they sound to be and at least you would eliminate any belt driven items then.
other possibility of course is cambelt pulley bearings .you mentioned a grating sound whereas lifters usually tick or have a tapping noise


That.


A stethoscope would be useful. Unless you like random guessing ;)
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #49 on: 29 September 2020, 20:22:29 »

Did you check the cambelt when you did the waterpump?
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #50 on: 29 September 2020, 21:15:17 »

Condition of belt itself no issue, no suggestion of cracking etc. Not hugely sure what would be visually amiss but the pulleys all seemed fine. Certainly no plastic or metal swarf or anything obvious.

Had a listening stick on it after a 20min drive. Rattle audible over 2krpm and definitely NS bank at the front. Quieter or more muffled soon as you go away from that area.
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Re: V6 top end rattle
« Reply #51 on: 29 September 2020, 21:17:29 »

PS caminhead haven't ignored you, will check if any difference without aux belt tomorrow when she gives my car back after she's finished work  :y
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