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[Webby the Bear]

This car has NEVER had an issue starting even with leaving it for a week. Go to pull it on drive this morning and it turned over very slowly and then just stopped. Odd i thought but no problem ill get my jump leads out. Positive to positive. Negative on battery terminal of good running car. Negative other end on lifting eye of omega. Ten minutes and still absolutely dead. Not one bit of an improvement. :-( is this battery toast? And if so would the cold weather have caused its rapid decline (last driven 3 days ago). Just would like your thoughts before i purchase new battery. I know its battery cos all beeps in car are laaaazy.

[zirk]

Volt meter?, what happens if you put Jump Leads Battery to Battery terminals directly?

[Webby the Bear]

i sadly dont have a volt meter zirk. I never tried battery to battery as i thought it had to be on the chassis or block

[tunnie]

If its flat, 10 mins connected to a good battery is not enough. You will need the good car to be at around 3k to 4k RPM, in order to give a decent jump 

[zirk]

If its flat, 10 mins connected to a good battery is not enough. You will need the good car to be at around 3k to 4k RPM, in order to give a decent jump 

Did I read it wrong then, thought Webby meant dead as in wouldn't Jump start?

[Webby the Bear]

ok fair do's. Cheers guys. Ill have to wait for mummy bear to get back now though. Wonder if the battery is on its way out though bearing in mind I've left it for a lot longer and never had any kind of issue? There's definitely no electrical items on that could drain it either.

[tunnie]

If its flat, 10 mins connected to a good battery is not enough. You will need the good car to be at around 3k to 4k RPM, in order to give a decent jump 

Did I read it wrong then, thought Webby meant dead as in wouldn't Jump start?

I read it as he hooked up dead battery to a good one, and just left it?  Attempting to charge it? Need some revs though to get it to start, an idling good car won't have enough juice

[Webby the Bear]

thats right tunnie. I did put few revs on but only two grand for a couple of those ten minutes. Ill do it lot longer when mummy gets back and put the revs on :-)

[zirk]

If its flat, 10 mins connected to a good battery is not enough. You will need the good car to be at around 3k to 4k RPM, in order to give a decent jump 

Did I read it wrong then, thought Webby meant dead as in wouldn't Jump start?

I read it as he hooked up dead battery to a good one, and just left it?  Attempting to charge it? Need some revs though to get it to start, an idling good car won't have enough juice

Clarification needed for me then, My normal procedure would be, jump start dead car, wait a couple of minutes whilst finishing Tea and putting known good battery and jump leads in passenger side and go for a good long spin. 

[kevinp58]

This car has NEVER had an issue starting even with leaving it for a week. Go to pull it on drive this morning and it turned over very slowly and then just stopped. Odd i thought but no problem ill get my jump leads out. Positive to positive. Negative on battery terminal of good running car. Negative other end on lifting eye of omega. Ten minutes and still absolutely dead. Not one bit of an improvement. :-( is this battery toast? And if so would the cold weather have caused its rapid decline (last driven 3 days ago). Just would like your thoughts before i purchase new battery. I know its battery cos all beeps in car are laaaazy.

Cold weather and hot weather can discharge what seems to be a good battery quickly.  when you get it started drive it to a spares shop and see if they have a drop tester that way you will know if battery is a dead'n. 

[zirk]

This car has NEVER had an issue starting even with leaving it for a week. Go to pull it on drive this morning and it turned over very slowly and then just stopped. Odd i thought but no problem ill get my jump leads out. Positive to positive. Negative on battery terminal of good running car. Negative other end on lifting eye of omega. Ten minutes and still absolutely dead. Not one bit of an improvement. :-( is this battery toast? And if so would the cold weather have caused its rapid decline (last driven 3 days ago). Just would like your thoughts before i purchase new battery. I know its battery cos all beeps in car are laaaazy.

Cold weather and hot weather can discharge what seems to be a good battery quickly.  when you get it started drive it to a spares shop and see if they have a drop tester that way you will know if battery is a dead'n. 

If your going to do that, fully charge the Battery first then leave it alone for a day or two, a perfectly good Battery thats partaily or discharged will fail a drop test. 

[kevinp58]

This car has NEVER had an issue starting even with leaving it for a week. Go to pull it on drive this morning and it turned over very slowly and then just stopped. Odd i thought but no problem ill get my jump leads out. Positive to positive. Negative on battery terminal of good running car. Negative other end on lifting eye of omega. Ten minutes and still absolutely dead. Not one bit of an improvement. :-( is this battery toast? And if so would the cold weather have caused its rapid decline (last driven 3 days ago). Just would like your thoughts before i purchase new battery. I know its battery cos all beeps in car are laaaazy.

Cold weather and hot weather can discharge what seems to be a good battery quickly.  when you get it started drive it to a spares shop and see if they have a drop tester that way you will know if battery is a dead'n. 

If your going to do that, fully charge the Battery first then leave it alone for a day or two, a perfectly good Battery thats partaily or discharged will fail a drop test. 

Yup sorry forgot to put that. 

[robson]

I have had a battery which was ok one day but dead the next The cold weather can kill a battery

[Simon.rose1]

My last vec broke down middle of the m5 in traffic after 2 hours drive when AA came out after being towed on to hard shoulder volts at battery were none exictant but on bat leads the other side the clamps was 14.4v turned out it was dodgy crimp on the clamps had them soldered up by auto electrician no probs after

[TheBoy]

Connected to lifting eye? I wonder if its not making a decent contact?

[Webby the Bear]

well after playing around for what seemed like hours with jump leads, high revs and different block connections i lost my rag and bought a new one. 52 quid with halfords trade card. the battery just wouldnt charge at all :-( anyway it turned out a good day (only just finished) as replaced breather bridge and replaced CTS. took her for a twenty minute run. She's gorgeous to drive. :-) rough idle though oddly. Ill sort that tomorrow though. Gonna write the CTS guide tomorrow too

[Webby the Bear]

ps, if this is of any interest to anyone, when i removed the inlets/fuel rail there was bags of room to get to the dispac. Easily get to the bolts and bags of room to get it outta there. With this in mind I'm gonna put it back where it came from. I can hear a few 'i told you so's' lol. BUT. not because its moving around cos its not. . Its sat nicely in place. But it is stretching the connector which I'm concerned about. So anyway ill be removing the inlet again when i do this. Just wondered if this is of any help :-)

[TheBoy]

ps, if this is of any interest to anyone, when i removed the inlets/fuel rail there was bags of room to get to the dispac. Easily get to the bolts and bags of room to get it outta there. With this in mind I'm gonna put it back where it came from. I can hear a few 'i told you so's' lol. BUT. not because its moving around cos its not. . Its sat nicely in place. But it is stretching the connector which I'm concerned about. So anyway ill be removing the inlet again when i do this. Just wondered if this is of any help :-)

Told you so

[omega3000]

ps, if this is of any interest to anyone, when i removed the inlets/fuel rail there was bags of room to get to the dispac. Easily get to the bolts and bags of room to get it outta there. With this in mind I'm gonna put it back where it came from. I can hear a few 'i told you so's' lol. BUT. not because its moving around cos its not. . Its sat nicely in place. But it is stretching the connector which I'm concerned about. So anyway ill be removing the inlet again when i do this. Just wondered if this is of any help :-)

Told you so

 

[Webby the Bear]

you guys are hilarious lol well she's all good. New CTS, new dispac, new leads, new battery. She'S running gorgeous apart from idle. However even though idle aint perfect its a lot better than yesterday . Will be back later with CTS guide :-)

[albitz]

Cleaned ICV ?

[Webby the Bear]

yes mate :-)

[omega3000]

Cleaned ICV ?

Takes a while to settle down after its been cleaned , mine use to cut out a few times but a few run outs and was fine 

[Webby the Bear]

Cleaned ICV ?

Takes a while to settle down after its been cleaned , mine use to cut out a few times but a few run outs and was fine 

ill keep that in mind, cheers steve 

[Lazydocker]

If its flat, 10 mins connected to a good battery is not enough. You will need the good car to be at around 3k to 4k RPM, in order to give a decent jump 

Did I read it wrong then, thought Webby meant dead as in wouldn't Jump start?

I read it as he hooked up dead battery to a good one, and just left it?  Attempting to charge it? Need some revs though to get it to start, an idling good car won't have enough juice

Oh yes it will, well... Might But it's high demand. I jump of an idling van frequently Even jumped lorries off my Astra van in the past

[dbdb]

you can jump a car from another car with the engine off if you really want, just like using a jump starter battery, better in fact as the car battery will be bigger.  However  it's definitely best to at least have the other car idling and if you rev it you will have a better chance (higher voltage).  Last thing you want is to drain the other car battery and find it won't start either. 

[Kevin Wood]

If you leave the "donor" car idling for a few minutes you are transferring charge into the flat battery. That's directly connected to the starter motor of the stranded car, so stands a much better chance of starting it than the donor battery through a set of jump leads. The resistance of a set of jump leads (especially poor quality ones) often means the starter simply can't draw enough current otherwise.

You get next to no transfer of charge into the flat battery unless the donor engine is running and the alternator is achieving 14+ Volts. Most modern alternators will achieve this at idle unless heavily loaded.

[pembsomega]

im sorry, but thats horsesh*te, revving the other car will make no difference

what volts do cars with alternators run at? do your lights get brighter when you rev the engine at night??

the alternator puts out 13.4v ot there abouts no matter what the revs are

what you needed was more time not more revs

thats not opinion thats a fact.

muchlove

[zirk]

im sorry, but thats horsesh*te, revving the other car will make no difference

what volts do cars with alternators run at? do your lights get brighter when you rev the engine at night??

the alternator puts out 13.4v ot there abouts no matter what the revs are

what you needed was more time not more revs

thats not opinion thats a fact.

muchlove

Afraid it will, with a totally flat Battery off the Alternator the output will be under considerable load at tick over and probably fall below 13v, revving to around 2000 rpm will induce more current in to the rectifier and bring the voltage up to a more expected Charge Voltage.

Headlights getting brighter when revving?, again probably with a flat battery in situ.

Alternators are designed to run a Charge Voltage of 13.8 under load and will exceed this voltage to 14v+ under minimal load and a fully charged battery as the Battery is then running as more of a capacitor across the load.

[pembsomega]

the advice given was to rev it to 4-5k, thats the horsesh*te

yes a totally flat battery may need 2k if youre in a rush, but revvig to 4/5k? WASTE OF PETROL

also leaving it at tickover would recitfy the problem yes?

[Kevin Wood]

im sorry, but thats horsesh*te, revving the other car will make no difference

what volts do cars with alternators run at? do your lights get brighter when you rev the engine at night??

the alternator puts out 13.4v ot there abouts no matter what the revs are

what you needed was more time not more revs

thats not opinion thats a fact.

muchlove

You'll soon be stranded with only 13.4 Volts from your alternator, I'm afraid.

14.4. is more like it.

Whilst the regulator built into the alternator will probably target 14.4 Volts all the time (some smarter designs adjust the voltage intelligently), the amount of current that the alternator can deliver depends on the speed at which it is rotating. Due to the wide speed range over which they must operate, they won't deliver their full rated output current until the engine is rotating at significantly over idle speed.

So, speed won't affect regulated output voltage directly, but if the alternator is heavily loaded (by a flat battery, for example) the Voltage may well drop below this unless you lift the revs, hence it is good advice to do so in this scenario.

Oh, and if you disagree with someone, feel free to do so respectfully.

[zirk]

the advice given was to rev it to 4-5k, thats the horsesh*te

yes a totally flat battery may need 2k if youre in a rush, but revvig to 4/5k? WASTE OF PETROL

also leaving it at tickover would recitfy the problem yes?

Again with a totally flat battery, probably not, leaving it at tickover for a while will probably just keep kicking in the cooling fans and disrupt any charge to the battery, takes a long time to get a fully flat Battery back up to full charge mode, Id rather take it for a good spin or whip the battery off and charge it rather than leave just ticking over.

[Webby the Bear]

Interesting read on the comments.

Well car is still idling rough. The sound of it sounds more tractor like at idle when I look under the bonnet. I'm wondering if I've accidentally caused a misfire. I made sure for absolute definite that I got the leads hooked up correctly. when I put some revs on it sounds a lot better... although there seems to be no loss of power, temp gauge bang on at 90. just the bag of spanners sound 

Wondering if a TechII live data read would reveal anything?

Any advice welcome.

[zirk]

Interesting read on the comments.

Well car is still idling rough. The sound of it sounds more tractor like at idle when I look under the bonnet. I'm wondering if I've accidentally caused a misfire. I made sure for absolute definite that I got the leads hooked up correctly. when I put some revs on it sounds a lot better... although there seems to be no loss of power, temp gauge bang on at 90. just the bag of spanners sound 

Wondering if a TechII live data read would reveal anything?

Any advice welcome.

Probably, but as for your original post topic and others to come, I reckon you invest in a half decent DVM.

[Webby the Bear]

Interesting read on the comments.

Well car is still idling rough. The sound of it sounds more tractor like at idle when I look under the bonnet. I'm wondering if I've accidentally caused a misfire. I made sure for absolute definite that I got the leads hooked up correctly. when I put some revs on it sounds a lot better... although there seems to be no loss of power, temp gauge bang on at 90. just the bag of spanners sound 

Wondering if a TechII live data read would reveal anything?

Any advice welcome.

Probably, but as for your original post topic and others to come, I reckon you invest in a half decent DVM.

Is on my list mate... sadly the money I've had to drop to go to mechanic school means i'm very, very.............very, very, very poor 

[zirk]

Interesting read on the comments.

Well car is still idling rough. The sound of it sounds more tractor like at idle when I look under the bonnet. I'm wondering if I've accidentally caused a misfire. I made sure for absolute definite that I got the leads hooked up correctly. when I put some revs on it sounds a lot better... although there seems to be no loss of power, temp gauge bang on at 90. just the bag of spanners sound 

Wondering if a TechII live data read would reveal anything?

Any advice welcome.

Probably, but as for your original post topic and others to come, I reckon you invest in a half decent DVM.

Is on my list mate... sadly the money I've had to drop to go to mechanic school means i'm very, very.............very, very, very poor 

I fully understand that webby, but it will be a good investment, nothing fancy, Ive allways rated Flukes myself, even an old second hand Fluke 77 or simular of the Bay would be a good starting tool 

[Webby the Bear]

Interesting read on the comments.

Well car is still idling rough. The sound of it sounds more tractor like at idle when I look under the bonnet. I'm wondering if I've accidentally caused a misfire. I made sure for absolute definite that I got the leads hooked up correctly. when I put some revs on it sounds a lot better... although there seems to be no loss of power, temp gauge bang on at 90. just the bag of spanners sound 

Wondering if a TechII live data read would reveal anything?

Any advice welcome.

Probably, but as for your original post topic and others to come, I reckon you invest in a half decent DVM.

Is on my list mate... sadly the money I've had to drop to go to mechanic school means i'm very, very.............very, very, very poor 

I fully understand that webby, but it will be a good investment, nothing fancy, Ive allways rated Flukes myself, even an old second hand Fluke 77 or simular of the Bay would be a good starting tool 

I'll check them out. Thanks Zirk 

[tidla]

Cut out the bigmac meal and you have enough.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-MULTIMETER-VOLTMETER-AMMETER-VOLT-OHM-METER-VOLTAGE-TESTER-TOP-Quality-/171020624002?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item27d19fa082

It will do for now or longer.

[Webby the Bear]

Cut out the bigmac meal and you have enough.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-MULTIMETER-VOLTMETER-AMMETER-VOLT-OHM-METER-VOLTAGE-TESTER-TOP-Quality-/171020624002?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item27d19fa082

It will do for now or longer.

Why so cheap? 

[Entwood]

Cut out the bigmac meal and you have enough.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-MULTIMETER-VOLTMETER-AMMETER-VOLT-OHM-METER-VOLTAGE-TESTER-TOP-Quality-/171020624002?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item27d19fa082

It will do for now or longer.

Why so cheap? 

Basic but functional

Have one of these in the front draw of the tin tent, useful for the odd circuit check/resistance check etc .. no great shakes but they work, and if they get stood on .. buy another !!

I have a more accurate, more sophisticated digital one at home, used for accurate measurements and work on computer stuff, but it not needed for basic car type checks.

[Webby the Bear]

Cut out the bigmac meal and you have enough.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-MULTIMETER-VOLTMETER-AMMETER-VOLT-OHM-METER-VOLTAGE-TESTER-TOP-Quality-/171020624002?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item27d19fa082

It will do for now or longer.

Why so cheap? 

Basic but functional

Have one of these in the front draw of the tin tent, useful for the odd circuit check/resistance check etc .. no great shakes but they work, and if they get stood on .. buy another !!

I have a more accurate, more sophisticated digital one at home, used for accurate measurements and work on computer stuff, but it not needed for basic car type checks.

Thanks Entwood..... just ordered. Can't grumble at that price!!! 

[zirk]

Cut out the bigmac meal and you have enough.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-MULTIMETER-VOLTMETER-AMMETER-VOLT-OHM-METER-VOLTAGE-TESTER-TOP-Quality-/171020624002?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item27d19fa082

It will do for now or longer.

I saw them in the Pound Shop.... ended up getting some Wagon Wheels instead, Yum! 

[the alarming man]

was going to say look here for good reliable meters...mine as bounced many a time from the top of a ladder


http://www.batterytester.co.uk/Multimeters-Accessories-and-Clamp.php

[Webby the Bear]

Thanks for the info guys  I'll use the one I've ordered and see what it enables me to do 

On an aside, am I right in thinking that if I have a misfire my 2.5 V6 wont throw up a check engine light, correct? If that's correct then will it show on a live data read on a TechII sesh? 

[TheBoy]

Cheapo meter will suffice. No need to buy expensive Flukes etc, as you're not interested in calibration and accuracy.

[Webby the Bear]

...And things don't get much cheaper than £1.39! 

[the alarming man]

Cheapo meter will suffice. No need to buy expensive Flukes etc, as you're not interested in calibration and accuracy.

well you say that but i would far rather have a fluke or a cheapo copy between me and the national grid than a meter that cost less than £ 1.50...you never know if you have a bad heart...untill its too late

[Webby the Bear]

Cheapo meter will suffice. No need to buy expensive Flukes etc, as you're not interested in calibration and accuracy.

well you say that but i would far rather have a fluke or a cheapo copy between me and the national grid than a meter that cost less than £ 1.50...you never know if you have a bad heart...untill its too late

Worth taking the risk for the ridiculous price. if its crap then ill have lost less than a bus fair from my house to the pub 200 metres up the road. if it works.... bargain 

[Webby the Bear]

just re-read.... you mean from the safety point of view don't you  sorry can be dumb sometimes 

[Entwood]

Cheapo meter will suffice. No need to buy expensive Flukes etc, as you're not interested in calibration and accuracy.

well you say that but i would far rather have a fluke or a cheapo copy between me and the national grid than a meter that cost less than £ 1.50...you never know if you have a bad heart...untill its too late

He's using it on a CAR ... 12v .. not a bit like the "National Grid" ... I see no point in scaremongring for the point of it ...

[zirk]

Cheapo meter will suffice. No need to buy expensive Flukes etc, as you're not interested in calibration and accuracy.

well you say that but i would far rather have a fluke or a cheapo copy between me and the national grid than a meter that cost less than £ 1.50...you never know if you have a bad heart...untill its too late

Agreed, these cheapo's can be ok, for telling you + OR - Volts, buzzing through for continuity or shorts but are just not up for the job in terms of accuracy, the last yellow cheapy I come across was measuring 15 v across  12V Battery when my Fulke measured 12,7, trying to measure and diagnose charging results from a car would just be false economy in my book compared to a potential cost of £80 for a new battery.

Which to be honest was my reasoning for encouraging Webby to get a good second hand one considering His current training and the original post. lets face it a good second hand Fluke that could be 10 plus years old can be picked up for around 20 to 30 quid.