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[JamesV6CDX]

I'm seeking the opinions of other fellow motorists here please 
 
In June, I had a minor car accident in the Range Rover. In short, 10am on a Sunday - roads were quiet. I was travelling in a National Speed Limit (60) on an A road - doing 60. A Blue Nissan 4x4 was coming the other way, also doing around 60. As we drew very close, without any warning, the Nissan swerved onto my side of the road. I had two choices - a head on crash, or, dump my old truck up the verge and avoid it. There were no other options or time to do anything else, and I didn't want to die, so I chose option 2.

I came off very well. The extent of the damage is a trashed Alloy wheel and tyre, plus minor cosmetics. The other driver made a hasty exit, and did not stop / exchange details. It scared the life out of me, given my previous head-on in 2016, and the damage another could do to me with my existing injuries.

I got home, and reviewed my front facing Dash-cam. It showed the incident with the other driver, a blonde female, very clearly at fault for it. I looked, and saw it had captured her index plate. So I decided to call my insurance company, because A) I am obliged to tell them in any case, and B) I thought it's so clearly not my fault, and with the footage, we will clearly get an admission of liability, and not affect my no-claims.

So I call my insurer, and tell them exactly what happened.

"Sorry, sir, because your vehicles didn't make contact, and YOU have hit roadside furniture, this will be a fault claim against YOUR policy, if you want your car fixed". I tried to explain that she caused it, until I was blue in the face, and offered to send in the footage, but they would not have it, or deal with the insurers for the woman. They said whatever happened, I now had a "strike" against me, because "I left the road and she didn't" - even though I was not wanting to claim against my own policy.

So I wondered what to do next. I used the MIB and DVLA website, and got details of the woman's identity and who her insurers were and her policy details. I contacted her insurers directly, explained what happened, and said I had footage. They said exactly the same as my insurer - *I* hit something, and their client didn't - so I was at fault, and should "claim off my own policy".

Still thinking this was complete injustice, I then did what I didn't really want to, and contacted the police. I reported the incident via their report form online, and sent them the footage.

They took an account from me, and interviewed the woman. A few days later the investigating officer contaced me, and said the other driver made full admissions to driiving without due care, not stopping, and was very sorry. She said she "lost control of her car" because "her son was kicking off". She was dealt with by the police (at a low level - education) for the offence of careless driving, as a result of the incident.

Based on this outcome, I remained adamant I was not at fault. So I started the small claims court process, against the woman directly. I spent hours writing a lengthy witness statement, providing evidence of the damage, estimates for repair, etc  (Cost of wheel and tyre). I filed my case. Within days, her insurers were repeatedly trying to contact me, and could not offer payment for my damages quickly enough. They wanted bank details, and paid me within days.

I have tried to again speak to my insurers, and they literally don't want to know. Despite the woman being done for careless driving, and me making a full recovery from the other insurers (who in a letter, say, "we accept full negligence for the incident") - they remain adamant I must have a "strike" against me, which will affect my premiums.

In my position, if you were me, how would you deal with my insurers? Yes I could just write it off, as it won't affect my premiums that much, but it's a total injustice!

I am thinking, either, Financial Ombudsman, or even small claims court against them too, for the time I had to spend doing their job, fighting my own case, when they refused to even watch the footage or consider the facts / approach the other side for their account - and of course the damage to my insurance reputation, caused by the unjust "strike". I had to spend hours clearing my name over this, and I am properly pissed off with my insurers!

[STEMO]

Ignorant bastards. I take it you have visited this page, James?

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumers/complaints-can-help/insurance/motor-insurance

[STEMO]

Having thought back to my previous dealings with insurance companies, I do remember being told that your insurance premium rises after any claim, even a no fault claim. Mo's car was set on fire last year, and even though she obviously had nothing to do with it, she still has to declare it at every renewal for the next five years.
The 'logic' behind this, I was told, is that 'people who make a claim are more likely to make a claim in future'.


https://www.uswitch.com/car-insurance/car-insurance-drivers-with-non-fault-claims/

[LC0112G]

This sort of incident is why people don't declare small 'incidents' to their insurers - no fault supermarket dings and the like.

I suspect you're stuffed on any further recourse, and are just going to have to wait for the incident to drop off your record. Your risk profile has changed given the new information you have correctly supplied to your insurers, so your base premium will go up. Your NCB is presumably unaffected, so you'll still get whatever % discount you previously got, but that discount will be on a higher basic premium.

Well done for the civil claim though. Once you start legal proceedings against someone else their insurance company is almost bound to get involved. The burden of proof in civil cases is simply on the balance of probabilities, so with compelling dash-cam footage you stand a good chance of having your claim for 'damages' paid. And their insurance company will probably want to pay up sooner rather than later in order to minimise the any payment (you might be using an expensive lawyer). Unfortunatley though, AIUI you cannot charge for your own time spent in civil cases, so I think you'll struggle to get anyone to give you more than you've already received.

I'm also surprised you got anywhere with the police. Basically, unless you get the police involved quickly, and they get a NIP served within 2 weeks she could have just told the police to 'eff-off' and there wouldn't have been anything they could have done about it.

[JamesV6CDX]

This sort of incident is why people don't declare small 'incidents' to their insurers - no fault supermarket dings and the like.

I suspect you're stuffed on any further recourse, and are just going to have to wait for the incident to drop off your record. Your risk profile has changed given the new information you have correctly supplied to your insurers, so your base premium will go up. Your NCB is presumably unaffected, so you'll still get whatever % discount you previously got, but that discount will be on a higher basic premium.

Well done for the civil claim though. Once you start legal proceedings against someone else their insurance company is almost bound to get involved. The burden of proof in civil cases is simply on the balance of probabilities, so with compelling dash-cam footage you stand a good chance of having your claim for 'damages' paid. And their insurance company will probably want to pay up sooner rather than later in order to minimise the any payment (you might be using an expensive lawyer). Unfortunatley though, AIUI you cannot charge for your own time spent in civil cases, so I think you'll struggle to get anyone to give you more than you've already received.

I'm also surprised you got anywhere with the police. Basically, unless you get the police involved quicf kly, and they get a NIP served within 2 weeks she could have just told the police to 'eff-off' and there wouldn't have been anything they could have done about it.

Thanks for this. My knowledge of Civil law is limited, aside of knowing the burden of proof is less than a criminal standard -  and I am not aware what can be charged or not. I don't actually want money, as such - I just don't see why my insurer should get away with doing eff all, and blaming me, when it wasn't my fault!

I've sent them a rather blunt letter, so we shall see what the response is!

[Andy B]

.... And their insurance company will probably want to pay up sooner rather than later in order to minimise the any payment ..

Feb 2020 someone ran into the back of me. My insurer paid up the £1100 straight away however they are still waiting for her insurers to pay them back.

[johnnydog]

I'm also surprised you got anywhere with the police. Basically, unless you get the police involved quickly, and they get a NIP served within 2 weeks she could have just told the police to 'eff-off' and there wouldn't have been anything they could have done about it.

Legally, NIPs aren't required to be sent (or verbally given) for accidents, unless there is evidence to suggest that the offending driver would have had no knowledge of the accident or had been totally unaware that the accident had occurred. The circumstances would indicate whether the offending driver would / should have been aware of their involvement, and in this particular case, it would be hard to deny involvement.
'Owing to the presence of a motor vehicle on a road, an accident occurs resulting in damage to any other vehicle' means that the offending vehicle does not need to be physical in contact with the third party for the accident to have occurred, so good practise would be to issue an NIP (written or given verbally dependant on circumstances) but not necessarily required by the letter of the law perhaps due to time restraints i.e if the offending driver isn't known at the time.
Just saying.....

[LC0112G]

I'm also surprised you got anywhere with the police. Basically, unless you get the police involved quickly, and they get a NIP served within 2 weeks she could have just told the police to 'eff-off' and there wouldn't have been anything they could have done about it.

Legally, NIPs aren't required to be sent (or verbally given) for accidents, unless there is evidence to suggest that the offending driver would have had no knowledge of the accident or had been totally unaware that the accident had occurred. The circumstances would indicate whether the offending driver would / should have been aware of their involvement, and in this particular case, it would be hard to deny involvement.
'Owing to the presence of a motor vehicle on a road, an accident occurs resulting in damage to any other vehicle' means that the offending vehicle does not need to be physical in contact with the third party for the accident to have occurred, so good practise would be to issue an NIP (written or given verbally dependant on circumstances) but not necessarily required by the letter of the law perhaps due to time restraints i.e if the offending driver isn't known at the time.
Just saying.....

Care to quote the case law or primary legislation to support that assertion?

[STEMO]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/170
No mention of that here.

[LC0112G]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/170
No mention of that here.

Yes, RTOA(S1) doesn't apply to RTA(S170) Failing to stop, but I thought we were talking about Dangerous/Careless/Inconsiderate driving, .

[LC0112G]

.... And their insurance company will probably want to pay up sooner rather than later in order to minimise the any payment ..

Feb 2020 someone ran into the back of me. My insurer paid up the £1100 straight away however they are still waiting for her insurers to pay them back.

Yeah, but that's just two different insurance companies dicking each other about. It's not 'gone legal', so no lawyers being paid buy the hour, and it'll get settled eventually. If you had issued a small claims against the other party yourself (with compelling evidence) like James did they would have fallen over themselves to pay up ASAP.

[johnnydog]

I'm also surprised you got anywhere with the police. Basically, unless you get the police involved quickly, and they get a NIP served within 2 weeks she could have just told the police to 'eff-off' and there wouldn't have been anything they could have done about it.

Legally, NIPs aren't required to be sent (or verbally given) for accidents, unless there is evidence to suggest that the offending driver would have had no knowledge of the accident or had been totally unaware that the accident had occurred. The circumstances would indicate whether the offending driver would / should have been aware of their involvement, and in this particular case, it would be hard to deny involvement.
'Owing to the presence of a motor vehicle on a road, an accident occurs resulting in damage to any other vehicle' means that the offending vehicle does not need to be physical in contact with the third party for the accident to have occurred, so good practise would be to issue an NIP (written or given verbally dependant on circumstances) but not necessarily required by the letter of the law perhaps due to time restraints i.e if the offending driver isn't known at the time.
Just saying.....

Care to quote the case law or primary legislation to support that assertion?

It's been like that regarding NIP's 'since Adam were a lad'....

https://roadtraffic.com/offence/nip/

NIPs aren't required in the case of accidents - basically because drivers generally 'know' they have been involved in an accident. In the case of a FTS RTA, you have to show that the offending driver 'knew' he had been involved in an RTA to absolve the issue of an NIP. One common example would be a minor RTA involving an HGV - the HGV driver sometimes may not aware that he had been in contact with a vehicle and therefore not stopped. In that case an NIP would be prudent, unless the evidence was such to undeniably suggest the driver was aware. But in the case of any doubt , a NIP would always be the 'belts and braces' approach.

[johnnydog]

Just to clarify - an offence of Careless Driving is one of the offences that requires an NIP. However, if the offence of Careless Driving is as a result of an RTA, then there is no requirement for the NIP (either verbally or by letter), unless there is any suggestion that the offending driver may have been unaware - as outlined in my previous post.

[LC0112G]

It's been like that regarding NIP's 'since Adam were a lad'....

https://roadtraffic.com/offence/nip/

NIPs aren't required in the case of accidents - basically because drivers generally 'know' they have been involved in an accident. In the case of a FTS RTA, you have to show that the offending driver 'knew' he had been involved in an RTA to absolve the issue of an NIP. One common example would be a minor RTA involving an HGV - the HGV driver sometimes may not aware that he had been in contact with a vehicle and therefore not stopped. In that case an NIP would be prudent, unless the evidence was such to undeniably suggest the driver was aware. But in the case of any doubt , a NIP would always be the 'belts and braces' approach.

Yes, accept all that for Failing to Stop. I thought we were talking about Dangerous/Careless/Inconsiderate(Sections 2&3 RTA), and Section 1 RTOA does apply to that.

[johnnydog]

James' incident is a Due Care (S3 RTA) on behalf of the other party - the 'blonde' driver,  and is a FTS - as he described the circumstances.

[TheBoy]

Define "strike against you". Did they say it will impact your NCB?

If not, this is perfectly normal.  Whether or not it will impact future premiums will depend on the rest of your recent driving record.  All insurances will ask "Have you had an accident in the last x years, regardless of blame".  It sounds like this "strike" is effectively answering that question for you.

When I queried this with my insurance after that pile up on the A5 where some bint took me hard up the arse, forcing me into a position where I subsequently got rammed hard by a bloke and his son, it turns out that statistically once you've been involved in a no fault accident, you are more likely to be involved in another.


So, in essence, if it doesn't impact your NCB, grin and bear it.  It may impact future premiums, irrespective of your insurance accepting she was to blame or not.  And, as I found out, you can't pursue additional premium costs against the other driver, because it is not yet known if their will be an increase.

[Kevin Wood]

Next time you renew your insurance you can swap insurers and declare it as a no fault incident, in my view, because the third party accepted responsibility and a full recovery of your losses was made, whatever your current insurer thinks.

That doesn't mean it won't count against you, but don't stress yourself worrying over that. Insurance companies are not worth it.
Pay them as little as you can get away with, deal with them as little as you can get away with and accept that they are all a bunch of *********.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Next time you renew your insurance you can swap insurers and declare it as a no fault incident, in my view, because the third party accepted responsibility and a full recovery of your losses was made, whatever your current insurer thinks.

That doesn't mean it won't count against you, but don't stress yourself worrying over that. Insurance companies are not worth it.
Pay them as little as you can get away with, deal with them as little as you can get away with and accept that they are all a bunch of *********.

Absobloodylutely! 

[TheBoy]

and accept that they are all a bunch of *********.

In the defence of Admiral at the time, I was pleasantly surprised with the way me writing off the Rover was dealt with at the time, once I'd got through the initial set of questions I had to go through whilst stood in the middle of the carnage, designed to give them a get-out option.  Oh, and the ambulance chasers they sold my details to.

Not that I use them currently, or its in any way raised my expectations of the car insurance industry

[Auto Addict]

If you report something to your insurance company, whether you make a claim or not, it is logged against you as being accident prone.

[VXL V6]

and accept that they are all a bunch of *********.

In the defence of Admiral at the time, I was pleasantly surprised with the way me writing off the Rover was dealt with at the time, once I'd got through the initial set of questions I had to go through whilst stood in the middle of the carnage, designed to give them a get-out option.  Oh, and the ambulance chasers they sold my details to.

Not that I use them currently, or its in any way raised my expectations of the car insurance industry

Tend to find if the car is a write off it's generally a quick and painless process in my experience, especially if it's not your fault.

[ronnyd]

and accept that they are all a bunch of *********.

In the defence of Admiral at the time, I was pleasantly surprised with the way me writing off the Rover was dealt with at the time, once I'd got through the initial set of questions I had to go through whilst stood in the middle of the carnage, designed to give them a get-out option.  Oh, and the ambulance chasers they sold my details to.

Not that I use them currently, or its in any way raised my expectations of the car insurance industry

Tend to find if the car is a write off it's generally a quick and painless process in my experience, especially if it's not your fault.

When my Desmond was written off by some idiot (not what i typed  )  who left his handbrake off, my insurance company tripled my premium.  >: Needless to say that i went elsewhere.(

[78bex]

Scary going head on like that  I bet her driving history is littered with claims.
On some days it feels like the loonies are following me around, if I can be arsed I`ll upload the BMW Coupe (Reg. 9 ANC) that had to get to front of the queue at all costs & very nearly side swiped me. When I did catch up with the idiot I felt fully justified in giving him heaps of verbal's  but didn`t ; cos I knew another looney would be along very shortly 

[ronnyd]

Scary going head on like that  I bet her driving history is littered with claims.
On some days it feels like the loonies are following me around, if I can be arsed I`ll upload the BMW Coupe (Reg. 9 ANC) that had to get to front of the queue at all costs & very nearly side swiped me. When I did catch up with the idiot I felt fully justified in giving him heaps of verbal's  but didn`t ; cos I knew another looney would be along very shortly 

Trouble is, these day you can never be sure what weapons said idiots are carrying.