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[Terbs]

Hi all....

The battery on the 2.5 is flat...it has not been used for a month. I assume this means the battery is dying. Starts first time when I attach a starter pack and runs sweet. Then stays charged if used regularly. Cold weather naffs it.

I want to charge the battery temporarily until I get a new one (seen some about £50 - £60). Question is, I assume you disconnect the earth terminal to charge, but as the power sounder has been taken out, can you just undo the terminal and remove the lead as on older cars. Or do you still have to go through the 15 second sequence. What happens if you connect a charger without disconnectiong the earth terminal ?? Always wondered
I have radio code so no problem there (its already gone into Safe mode)

Thanks
Tony

[Andy B]

no need to disconnect the battery when charging, just ensure the charger is turned off before disconnecting. 

If you do disconnect the battery, the 15 secs 'rule' applies though for the alarm. 

[Terbs]

Thanks Andy....will get to it

I won't disconnect the battery....anything for an easy life

[Nick W]

A month is a long time for a connected battery to stay charged in a modern car. Leaving it connected whilst flat will do it no good at all.
A smart charger is what you need. The Ctek ones come with a hardwire kit that makes connecting/disconnecting it quick and easy.

[Kevin Wood]

Yep, I'd expect even a healthy battery to be dead with a month of not being used.

As said, get a CTEK or similar (Lidl?  ) to leave on it if it's going to be parked up for long periods.

[Terbs]

So what you are saying is when we clear off to our caravan, attach this Ctek charger to whichever Omega we leave here, and it will keep the battery topped up.

[Kevin Wood]

So what you are saying is when we clear off to our caravan, attach this Ctek charger to whichever Omega we leave here, and it will keep the battery topped up.

Yep.

You even get a little plug on a lead that you can attach to the battery so it's quick to hook up.

[Marks DTM Calib]

As for the connecting to the battery whilst still on the vehicle, that depends on the charger 

[Dave DND]

leave on it if it's going to be parked up for long periods

Sorry to Hi-Jack a thread, but it seemed relavent -

Very Curious, as I have no real experience of these CTEK chargers - are you saying that it is ok to leave them connected to the battery for long periods of time - ie:winter hibernation or laid up Motorcycles?

Has anyone had any "good" experience doing this with solar panels (not the el-cheapo fag lighter plug in ones) but proper solar ones, and if so, what size panels do you need? Must be some caravanners amongs you with solar on the roof.

I currently have a car in the garage that doesn`t really see much tarmac (as it has no roof), and I would like to keep battery topped up so if I see sunshine, I can just jump in it without having to charge it first.

[TheBoy]

Leaving my CTEK connected to my ZX10 seems to always make the battery flat...  ...as if the charger wasn't there.

No idea why, I suspect the battery (why should it go flat on its own, no drain on it), but it was the same on the previous battery as well.

[Marks DTM Calib]

leave on it if it's going to be parked up for long periods

Sorry to Hi-Jack a thread, but it seemed relavent -

Very Curious, as I have no real experience of these CTEK chargers - are you saying that it is ok to leave them connected to the battery for long periods of time - ie:winter hibernation or laid up Motorcycles?

Has anyone had any "good" experience doing this with solar panels (not the el-cheapo fag lighter plug in ones) but proper solar ones, and if so, what size panels do you need? Must be some caravanners amongs you with solar on the roof.

I currently have a car in the garage that doesn`t really see much tarmac (as it has no roof), and I would like to keep battery topped up so if I see sunshine, I can just jump in it without having to charge it first.

Indeed you can connect and forget Dave, they are considered the Rolls Royce of charger almost.

The key thing is that battery charging is actualy very difficult to do well and long term. There are at least three stages of charging, Bulk (80%), absorption (20%) and float (maintenance), the trouble is that the float charge can boil them dry (as per burglar alarms etc!).

The more advanced chargers adjust the charge rate dependent on ambient temperture (as the battery celll voltage is dependent on temperature) and when in float mode, will actualy stop charging and drop into a monitor state and then re-charge when required, some even carry out a gentle discharge and top up.

The result is a charger that will not damage the battery and maintain it at a fully charged level indefinately. Whats more is that because the charge is kept at or very close to 100%, sulphation does not occur (which is the biggest killer for batteries and can start to form at charge levels sub 90%)

As for the solar panels, I have been playing with one for maintaining the battery on a loading shovel we have stored line side at a remote location, sadly the results are not great as there they lack the intelligence required (as per above) to 'look after' the battery long term.

Its worth noting that there are other options for chargers other than Ctek now as the rest of the industry catch up.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Leaving my CTEK connected to my ZX10 seems to always make the battery flat...  ...as if the charger wasn't there.

No idea why, I suspect the battery (why should it go flat on its own, no drain on it), but it was the same on the previous battery as well.

Hmmm, something must be fooling the charge monitor circuits.

[TheBoy]

Leaving my CTEK connected to my ZX10 seems to always make the battery flat...  ...as if the charger wasn't there.

No idea why, I suspect the battery (why should it go flat on its own, no drain on it), but it was the same on the previous battery as well.

Hmmm, something must be fooling the charge monitor circuits.

From memory, the battery is 14Ahr, which is within the CTEK's spec. Although its not a great quality battery.

Its on, as we speak, I bet it won't even pull in the starter solenoid if I tried to start it. After reconnecting, I bet it would charge for about half an hour, then go to float.

"Seems" to be OK on a normal sized car battery - the one I removed from Goldie is kept topped up on the CTEK, for about a week every 6 months or so....

[TheBoy]

Its XS800, BTW

[Dave DND]

Leaving my CTEK connected to my ZX10 seems to always make the battery flat...  ...as if the charger wasn't there.

No idea why, I suspect the battery (why should it go flat on its own, no drain on it), but it was the same on the previous battery as well.

I borrowed a so called "smart charger" for a while from one of our distributors and had exactly the same problem on my Honda 650 - if anything, the battery took longer to go flat with the charger disconnected ! My initial feelings were that whilst the battery was the correct size according to the documentation, that in reality, the current draw may have been too insignificant to turn the charger on, and the charger was simply viewed as a "load" instead - never tried it on the car

I know that you cannot simply plug a solar panel in, and there are some sophisticated charger / monitor interfaces out there, but tryig to read up on them is a bit of a minefield - curious though, what size solar panel are you using?

[TheBoy]

My charger is for bikes (or at least bike size batteries), so I was expecting better 

[TheBoy]

Its on, as we speak, I bet it won't even pull in the starter solenoid if I tried to start it.

I hate it when I'm right.

Going to stick a cheapo Clarke trickle charger on it for a few hours, then see whats what.

Incidentally, put the CTEK on the car battery I have in the garage, that hasn't been charged since late summer/early autumn, charged it for about 2 or 3 mins, then went to float 

[Marks DTM Calib]

Hi Dave

I have a ruggedised 40W panel (so in theory upto 3A of charge) and a 'regulator' (which when looking at the circuit does little more than shunt current)

[Dave DND]

Hi Dave

I have a ruggedised 40W panel (so in theory upto 3A of charge) and a 'regulator' (which when looking at the circuit does little more than shunt current)

Not the answer I was hoping you to post, but glad you did - Been looking at just that type of thing

 

[steve6367]

Solar panel with a good charger works well - use it on the boat all the time with a MPPT regulator and a normal PWM regulator in the Omega when parked up.

Steve

[Entwood]

As Steve says above ...

Solar regulators come in many forms .. cheap to expensive ..  the cheap ones are no more than "charge limiters" and will stop the battery going over 13.8v which prevents "gassing off" but does not fully charge... expect to pay around £10 ish from ebay.

PWM will do a tad more, and an MPPT even more ... but you "gets what you pay for" .. PWM chargers around £20 for a 10 amp, MPPT about double that.

reasonable write up here .. but is based on commercial setups ....

http://www.oynot.com/charge-controllers-mppt-pwm.html

I use a 60 watt panel when away in the van , and use a simple PWM charger as the panel is only connected when on site, and we are using power during that time, so the panel is continually "topping up" the battery which reduces the chances of overcharging. If I were to use the panel while the van was "laid up" so to speak I'd go for MPPT every time.

[Marks DTM Calib]

If I made the statement that the link posted has pretty much no detail and info relating to battery charging and also has errors relating to sulphation....the only way to prevent sulphation is to maintain 100% charge.

Would you be surprised...

[Entwood]

If I made the statement that the link posted has pretty much no detail and info relating to battery charging and also has errors relating to sulphation....the only way to prevent sulphation is to maintain 100% charge.

Would you be surprised...

Nope .. but it wan't intended as a treatise on battery charging .. just as an indication of the differences between types of chargers.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Sorry, didn't make myself clear.

They do nothing more than describe different methods for producing a supply from a solar panel.

1) A switch mode
2) A shunt regulator

As far as the basics of battery charging are concerned and without the sophistication of a micro to manage the charge intelligently, the only advantage no1 has over no2 is efficiency 

Furthemore they are making statements which are factualy incorrect 

[Dave DND]

So,

If I got a decent sized solar panel, for arguments sake, say a 100W one, and invested in an MPPT box to go with it

Will this keep my car or bike alive during the winter?

 

[Marks DTM Calib]

Depends on the functionality of the MPPT box because it could quite easily boil the battery to death. Having had a look at the MPPT description, it states nothing about its charge method and hence is doing little more than a shunt reg would with respect to battery charging. The only benefit is its extracting max power from the solar array.

What is needed is the likes of an MPPT box with the battery charge function of an intelligent charger (cant see any with that).

All the MPPT is doing is matching the load impedance to that of the varying impedance of the solar array to get maximum power transfer (hopefuly talking your language there Dave with you audio background  ).

So for me, no and particularly not on a small battery.

[Marks DTM Calib]

I should summarise better

The modules listed are designed to extract maximum power from the array at all times, this is thier primary purpose.

This is not the same as a battery charger designed to maintain battery charge indefinately which is more load focused. 

[Kevin Wood]

It's interesting that other people have found the CTEK 800 not to keep a battery in good condition. I commented in another thread recently that on two vehicles (my Westfield and my dad's sit-on mower), after a long period of connection they are both reluctant to start but eventually revive with a bit of regular use, a jump start / more aggressive charge. I wonder if this needs investigating?

FWIW, I don't think the XS800 is a very "smart" charger. It has two phases as far as I can see from casual observation:

1) Charge battery with current limit until a set voltage is reached.
2) Sit idle until a lower voltage is reached

So, no obvious absorption or float phases.

I'm actually wondering it it doesn't maintain a high enough level of charge to prevent sulphation.

[Kevin Wood]

I also notice that the current XS800 has a couple of extra LEDs on than my example.

[TheBoy]

The destructions for xs800 state its 3 phases are charge, absorb, maintenence.

[Dave DND]

This was the one that caught my eye

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MPPT-15A-Solar-Panel-Charge-Regulator-Controller-Coverter-Auto-12-24V-360Watt-/230710846854?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item35b7702586

[Entwood]

As far as I can see from the specs that will limit your battery to 13.7v which is below the gassing point but is not quite fully charged ....

This type allow you to set the bulk voltage and the float (maintenance voltage) but are way more expensive, this one is probably way too powerful as well .. but just trying to show the differences available

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30A-12V-24V-MPPT-LCD-Charge-Controller-Regulator-360W-720W-Solar-Panel-/281014967810?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item416dcc1e02

[Dave DND]

As far as I can see from the specs that will limit your battery to 13.7v which is below the gassing point but is not quite fully charged ....

Ok, but the way I see it, it is 13.8v more than my bike ever has when I want to use it !!

[Kevin Wood]

The destructions for xs800 state its 3 phases are charge, absorb, maintenence.

Hmm. I wonder if I still have the book for mine.? 

[mc9]

Batteries are just strange. Our 2.5TD will got for weeks without problems, and then for no apparent reason get a dead battery. Wifey *claims* she hasn't left any loads on. I've put a new battery on to see what happens. And keep the old one charged with the CTEK.

I have an Optimate4 for bikes and CTEK MXS 5.0 for cars (also has motorcycle mode).

Use Optimate on bikes only.
Use CTEK on both.

Batteries seem to be okay with this maintenance regime.

Cheers, mc9