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Author Topic: How NOT to install ICE !!  (Read 4664 times)

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Dave DND

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How NOT to install ICE !!
« on: 28 January 2008, 13:35:48 »

Due to the number of bad installations we see on a regular basis, we have started to show them in the hope that others may learn how not to do it !

Worth a look if you have a few minutes spare

http://www.dndservices.co.uk/htmls/flash_htmls/blackmuseum.htm
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zippo

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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #1 on: 28 January 2008, 13:54:45 »

and i thought i was a plonka where electrics are concerned
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #2 on: 28 January 2008, 17:54:52 »

LOL..........I love the ones on fuses.

I have preached until I am blue in the face about fuses and how

They must NOT exceed the rating of the cables after the fuse.

They must not exceed the maximum capability of the supply, and this also has to allow for any supply cables as well (particularly relevant if adding fuses to fuse boxes).

They must be as close as possible to the point of branch (i.e. the battery terminal or other wire that is being tapped into noting of course the above!)

They do NOT protect the equipment from damage....they are there to protect the supply from damage and to prevent fire risks in the supply cabling.

An additional point to note, once you get close to the 100A figure, fuses are not ideal and circuit breakers should be used. This is particularly relevant with car audio installs where you dont have many volts to play with.
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Dave DND

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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #3 on: 28 January 2008, 18:13:07 »

Aahhh !  Cable ratings !!!

Will nobody ever listen to us !

Too many people (including those on this forum) do not appreciate that an incorrectly rated cable can be just as problematic as it can be dangerous.

Too many want to cut corners with cheap or thin cable and end up with either voltage drop over a long length, serious overheating or RF interference.

Professional audio costs money - and the installation accessories, if fitted correctly can cost nearly as much as the equipment itself.

Good point about the circuit breakers - they are preferred once the current gets into three figures as they often trip a lot faster than it takes for a solid bar fuse to burn out.

 :y
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #4 on: 28 January 2008, 18:17:02 »

Quote
Aahhh !  Cable ratings !!!

Will nobody ever listen to us !

Too many people (including those on this forum) do not appreciate that an incorrectly rated cable can be just as problematic as it can be dangerous.

Too many want to cut corners with cheap or thin cable and end up with either voltage drop over a long length, serious overheating or RF interference.

Professional audio costs money - and the installation accessories, if fitted correctly can cost nearly as much as the equipment itself.

Good point about the circuit breakers - they are preferred once the current gets into three figures as they often trip a lot faster than it takes for a solid bar fuse to burn out.

 :y

More importantly, the volt drop across a (good) circuit breaker is much less than that of the equivalent fuse plus they are not prone to ageing through current in-rush (which all fuses are and hence why when thy get old they sometime fail for no apparant reason).

Fuses and CB's used to an area I specialised in many moons ago......I actulay did a paper for the IEE on the subject.
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #5 on: 28 January 2008, 19:44:02 »

Yup, fit fuses as near to supply (or where you are teeing, if teeing into existing cable) as possibly, and ensure the cables are up to the job.

Such bodges annoy me (as Tunnie found out with his invertor fitting to his Senny).  Forgetting about the serious fire risks, surely your car is (probably the 2nd most valuable thing you'll own) worth more?

I know some people, hopefully not any on this forum, who think the expense is of cabling and protection up is not necessary, and would rather spend the extra on a bigger chavier amp. These people are very foolish.

Still, let these idiots burn - evolution is all about survival of the fittest :P

Harsh?
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #6 on: 28 January 2008, 19:50:15 »

Quote
Fuses and CB's used to an area I specialised in many moons ago......I actulay did a paper for the IEE on the subject.
I did an A level study on fuses and breakers.  Fuses vary quite a lot, and (unless old) blow at significantly higher currents...
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #7 on: 28 January 2008, 20:03:56 »

Dave,

can i pick your brain? Just want to make sure that off the back of what you have show here my install is OK

Alpine MRV-F407/4 amp, rated at 120W per channel (running 4 channels)

I was recommended to use 8 guage with a 50 amp fuse, fuse is right by the power source (battery)

Never had a problem with it, just want to be safe  :y


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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #8 on: 28 January 2008, 20:38:48 »

50 Amp fuse by the battery is fine.

Although not an exact calculation, the general rule of thumb we use when installing is to add up all of the fuses on the amplifiers, and go for the next preferred value up. For instance if your amp has 2x20A fuses, that would make a total load of 40A, and the next preferred value up would be 50A. This means that everything can run flat out without an excessive main fuse. keeping the main fuse as close to the power source (battery) is critical for protection, and that cannot be stressed enough.

If only running the amp at low levels, then 8 gauge cable is ok (ish) although I would have preferred to see a heftier 4 gauge cable there.

At near 500 Watts, the Alpine amp is a good and powerfull choice, especially being a 4 channel, and it would be good to have an adequate power supply should you wish to use the full potential of it.

With the 8 gauge cable, the demand on power will be more than the cable can supply and over the 6 meters or so between the amp and the battery you will suffer from some voltage drop. You may find that if you crank the amp up, that it starts to cut out or distort at high volumes - at first it will appear that the amp is simply tripping out, but the switch mode power supply inside can only take that for so long before it goes bang. Distortion on a high quality amp is a very bad thing, and can always be solved!

For anyone else reading here, to understand and check for voltage drop, if you have a digital voltmeter, check the voltage at the battery, and check the voltage across the power terminals of the amp when running. It should be EXACTLY the same, but if you have even the slightest of differences, the gauge of the cable is most likely to be the cause of it, and needs to be increased in size.
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Craig_R

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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #9 on: 28 January 2008, 20:45:25 »

120 watt amp on 4 channels will draw 40 amps

120 * 4 div by 12 = 40 amps

AWG 8 should be ok but depends on the lenth of the cable also I went for AWG 6 with a lower rating fuse to make double double sure it was fine



forgot to say may amp does not pull as many amps as yours so i can get away with a low fuse mine is only 80 x 4 so pulls 26 odd amps
« Last Edit: 28 January 2008, 20:48:57 by CraigR »
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #10 on: 28 January 2008, 21:05:26 »

cheers for that chaps.

Mine does trip out from time to time with high volume, so time to replace the 8 gauge with 6 then
« Last Edit: 28 January 2008, 21:05:39 by jay_w »
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #11 on: 28 January 2008, 21:22:02 »

The fact it trips out is actualy the sign of poor design.....but its done to a price and its only car audio so far from Hifi.

If the DC-DC was an average design then it would tolerate the volt drop without affecting output until the max supply current is reached at which point it should lower the secondary supply.

This would result in distortion which is detectable by the ear and which generaly would cause people to turn the wick down......might occasionaly pop a tweeter but, many simple wind the things up until they distort anyway!

The rule of thumb on cable is that it should be rated to AT LEAST that of the main supply fuse.....as this is the current it needs to withstand under fault conditions.

And be wary of those tables, they assume cable with reasonable ventilation which given the routing on many cars, does not happen.

And dont frget to give your amps the maximum chance of cooling by ensuring the heatsink fins are vertical.
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #12 on: 28 January 2008, 22:38:01 »

And if you walk into an audio store to buy 6 gauge, you will come out with 4 gauge !

Its not a common size amongst us car audio suppliers, as none of the accessories or connectors are made for 6 gauge at all !!

Common sizes supported with off the shelf connectors are

8, 4, 2, and zero gauge (lower the number, heavier the cable)

Others are available, but certainly not economic.
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #13 on: 28 January 2008, 22:52:06 »

Quote
Due to the number of bad installations we see on a regular basis, we have started to show them in the hope that others may learn how not to do it !

Worth a look if you have a few minutes spare

http://www.dndservices.co.uk/htmls/flash_htmls/blackmuseum.htm

You've got to give them marks for ingenuity! ;)
At least they keep you in work.  ;D  ;D  ;D
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #14 on: 28 January 2008, 22:59:39 »

and its only car audio so far from Hifi.

be carefull with that statement my friend . . . .

I have a reputation to uphold here.

Some of my claims to fame would pitch my car stereo, and most of my customers ones against even the most expensive home systems.

We are well known for the records and trophies we have won for both audio quality and sheer volume - the party trick of one of my customers is to see how far he can fire his windscreen over the front of his car - around eight feet is easily achieved. And if quality is your thing, we were the first company in the world to achieve a pure flat frequency response in a vehicle - only a handfull of people have managed it since in the RTA competition world.

I accept that most car audio is a long way from what you may call HiFi,

But when you make your living designing and installing systems upwards of £10K each  . . . . .    8-)
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #15 on: 28 January 2008, 23:19:08 »

Quote
....... we were the first company in the world to achieve a pure flat frequency response in a vehicle -  ........

errrr? Say that again please, but slowly in English!  ;D  ;D  ;D  :y
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #16 on: 28 January 2008, 23:24:10 »

Quote
and its only car audio so far from Hifi.

be carefull with that statement my friend . . . .

I have a reputation to uphold here.

Some of my claims to fame would pitch my car stereo, and most of my customers ones against even the most expensive home systems.

We are well known for the records and trophies we have won for both audio quality and sheer volume - the party trick of one of my customers is to see how far he can fire his windscreen over the front of his car - around eight feet is easily achieved. And if quality is your thing, we were the first company in the world to achieve a pure flat frequency response in a vehicle - only a handfull of people have managed it since in the RTA competition world.

I accept that most car audio is a long way from what you may call HiFi,

But when you make your living designing and installing systems upwards of £10K each  . . . . .    8-)



"Flat frequency response"

now THAT i'd like to see......  (but , sadly, probably not hear.,...   )

in what amounts to a resonant tin can......     ;)

how one achieves a tidy time domain response as well as spectral balance in such an environment.....    isn't quite beyond me, but it is beyond my wallet,

(and the likely ability of most car chassis to accommodate...  ;)  )

(actually I don't have much time for "HiFi" "purists" ....  they usually spend gazillions on fancy bits of kit that are designed ostensibly, not to play you what is actually there, but somehow make it "nicer" "richer" "more involving" , and then they go and put it in a bare room, with highly reflective walls, ceilings and floors, (also usually resonant) , often virtually cuboid...  and prattle on about how accurate it is...  when merely moving their head by a few inches to a  foot can produce shifts in low frequency response of easily 30 or 40 dB , thanks to the utterly untamed modal ringing (sometimes, not entirely accurately referred to as standing waves) ,  their "listening room" exhibits....  ohh  gawd... I could go on for DAYS.....   suffice it to say that I treat the entire market sector with a modicum of despair! ....


( aside from recording and mixing some of the stuff they listen to, I also design and build recording studios , editing facilities , post production and mastering suites,  )





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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #17 on: 28 January 2008, 23:36:18 »

"Flat frequency response"
now THAT i'd like to see......  (but , sadly, probably not hear.,...   )
in what amounts to a resonant tin can......    
how one achieves a tidy time domain response as well as spectral balance in such an environment.....    isn't quite beyond me, but it is beyond my wallet,


Actually you are not kidding -

After spending near £100K to achieve a flat response, it sounded absolutely shite - it was a technical challenge, nothing else, but it put our name firmly on the map and we recouped our investment in prize money within 12 months !!

Now, if you`d like to SEE something with audio, we used to do a trick many years ago at the car shows where we would ask a young girlie to sit on the roof of a car whilst we blasted out a 33Hz tone - and you could watch them physically melt . . . .

For those out there who do not recognise the significance of 33Hz . .

As every boy racer will now tell you, as the tone is a firm favourite these days, its the resonant frequency of a clitorus   :y

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Dave DND

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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #18 on: 28 January 2008, 23:39:47 »

Oh, and for those interested in the flat frequency response, the car was an Izusu Trooper crammed full of Clarion equipment and sparked off a long running feature on Channel Four`s Big Breakfast many years ago.
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #19 on: 28 January 2008, 23:44:16 »

actually, as purely theoretical "technical challenge" i'd be quite interested in investigating the possibilities of creating an accurate acoustic environment on wheels

some people might call it a car...

i'd call it a bloody miracle, but it is nonetheless an interesting thought..


   next time I pass through your neck of the woods.....  


I presume you have a kettle ??  ;)





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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #20 on: 29 January 2008, 08:18:55 »

Kettle is always on, and cold beers always in the fridge!
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #21 on: 29 January 2008, 08:46:50 »

well i have learnt something this morning  :y

Dave i might pop over sometime and have a chat, if you have any AWG6 in i will pick some up at that point.

I'm only a few miles down the road  ;)
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #22 on: 29 January 2008, 09:24:21 »

Sorry, I don`t stock AWG6 - no call for it - use AWG4 as previous thread !
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #23 on: 29 January 2008, 09:47:43 »

Quote
Sorry, I don`t stock AWG6 - no call for it - use AWG4 as previous thread !

Well if you have some of that then that will do  :y
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #24 on: 29 January 2008, 11:36:04 »

Frequency response is only one part of teh quality puzzle.

Distortion is a major part as is S/N and harmonics.

You just cant achieve this in a tin box with the noisey power supplies associated with cars and DC-DC convertors also add an addition nasty to the output to.
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #25 on: 29 January 2008, 11:56:17 »

You just cant achieve this in a tin box with the noisey power supplies associated with cars.


You just need to be playing with some better equipment!

 ;)
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #26 on: 29 January 2008, 12:02:09 »

BTW, Mark, I was specifically talking about the Car as an acoustic environment.

All spaces have their own frequency response, which is by definition, imposed upon any source active within that space.

the Challenge , that piques my vague interest, is creating a spectrally neutral space, , with a balanced and tight time domain response , inside a Car.

I can do it in a truck body , no problem....   (see many mobile broadcast trucks etc, for example,  www.fleetwoodmobiles.com )

but in a car??   it's nigh on impossible , (without making the car undriveable...._ , and that's even without considering the body itself as a resonant structure, merely the internal geometry and boundary materials make it a nightmare....  ....  

about the only thing offhand that i can think of that might be made workable relatively easily (note, RELATIVELY) is something like the McClaren F1, where the driver is basically in the middle .... then at least there's some space between his ear and the side panel/glass , to give us the chance to deal with the resulting comb filtering effects and Hf reflections, and to do so with a stable stereo image...

As an experiment, I'll have to see about running a set of std room tests inside a car, and actually get some accurate overall response plots and enclosure resonance mode data.

If you've ever seen a thing called a "Waterfall graph/plot" of a set of speakers...  you have seen a time domain related frequency response graph....  where it plots not only the instantaneous response, but the decay times that result from a source impulse..  in a speaker, this tells us whether there are ay undesirable effects caused, for example, by reflex ports, and cabinet resonance,  for a room, or other acoustic space, this tells us about how long the room's reverberent field goes on for, and at what kind of frequencies it has longer anomalies caused by modal ringing....  .  where it gets complicated is that different positions within a room have different responses, so one has to build up a series of these tests from around the room to be able to gauge accurately how the space as a whole responds.

believe it or not... the acoustic environment your music is played in, be it home, car or wembley stadium, is generally capable of having more impact on the end result than A.B or C pieces of equipment....  (unless they're REALLY badly designed....  )

typical consumer equipment responses don't vary by more than ±3dB within say 20Hz to 15KHz .... (as opposed to professional stuff , which can be really silly... for example, I have Mic pre-amps that are ruler flat to within ±0.1dB from 5 Hz to 300KHz)   where as response level maxima and minima within a room can vary by 40dB easily.,.. sometimes more (especially in a cube shaped room)
 

My anorak is at last revealed......   ;)  


« Last Edit: 29 January 2008, 12:03:18 by MaxV6 »
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #27 on: 29 January 2008, 12:14:17 »

Max

I am talking at the source end which is where my area of expertise lies.

A flat response audio amp is easy to make, nothing challenging there and even easier thanks to the use of MOSFETS etc.

A low distortion amp across a wide frequeny range is another challenge.

The biggest impact on frequency reponse is the power supply, to be able to supply high transients at the full audio spectrum is hugely challenging and becomes harder as the power level increases. To make amtters worse, you may well be able to get it flat at only one power level or a limited range of levels.

The trouble is that car audio setups have to use DC-DC converters in order to raise the supply levels to drive the required power, these supplies have some horrible levels of capacitance and series inductance which play a massive part in the distortion and response.

Further more, you then need to consider the noisey car environment, its often described as the worst power supply on earth (when the engine is running i.e. in real world use!) which WILL couple through to the audio stages.

Well thats the lecture on the source electronics done!
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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #28 on: 29 January 2008, 12:18:06 »

Quote
My anorak is at last revealed......

You anorak's been out before, Max!

Granted a car is a very difficult acoustic environment but there's another factor here.

I consider myself as something of  Hi-Fi enthusiast, perhaps not as much these days as I used to be, but I've experimented with different kit, including  a bit of homebrew stuff, in different locations in the room and developed a more critical ear than most, probably.

I find that a car is not an environment where the finer details matter too much. When I'm at home, relaxing, I can sit back in a comfy chair,  pour myself a beer, put one of my favourite albums on and I start to appreciate a high level of detail in the sound. (until Mrs. KW complains about the volume)  ::)

In a car, I'm generally preoccupied with driving the car and whilst some tunes are nice, and if they can be turned up sufficiently loud to drown out some of the noise of the environment that's a bonus, I can't ever get into the same "zone" as I can in my living room, because I have other distractions, so I'd never go to huge lengths to perfect the sound in a car.

Is it just me?

Kevin
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Martin_1962

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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #29 on: 29 January 2008, 12:32:42 »

My home system has a lot of comprimises as it is for home cinema and HiFi

H/C comprimise no sub, all speakers full range

HiFi compromise, AV receiver used, DVD player is best quality source.

That said my DVD player does have both DVD-A and SACD
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MaxV6

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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #30 on: 29 January 2008, 12:34:06 »

Mate I'm aware of your angle  ;)  I wanted to clarify what I meant when I was referring to flat frequency response in cars being , shall we say, "a tad unlikely...." ??
  ;)

truly, even mega bucks systems, with 2 or 3 way active cross overs and individual monobloc amps per driver , even if running with an external mains supply , are still massively at the mercy of the acoustic space...  

Kev, you can hear finer detail in a better controlled room , at lower levels....   think on that as a means to enjoy the music, and balance the wife's demands for peace and quiet.

The words you need to look up are.

Bass trap. (see also, Room modes )

First reflection point.

broadband absorption.

Boundary effect.


.

then there's the question of appropriate speaker and listener positioning....    quick guide...

 listening position in the middle laterally, 38% of the longitudinal  measurement in to the room.

you should form an equilateral triangle with the speakers, with the tweeters at ear height when listening.

angled in towards you, but , not at the middle of your head...  a straight line should be drawn from tweeter dome to earlobe.


generally, for speaker position,  some distance from the wall is also required,1-2 feet is usually adequate. unless the manufacturer specifically states the speakers are designed to work within the room boundary layer and need to be set there for Lf reinforcement.


there's more.....   a LOT more to it, but there's enough to look up there to keep anyone busy for some time....   Remind me   some time &  I'll have to demonstrate for you mate.

Max

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Kevin Wood

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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #31 on: 29 January 2008, 12:48:57 »

Quote
you can hear finer detail in a better controlled room , at lower levels....

Yep. I know, and I'll have a look at those links.  :y

Clearly the first thing I need to do is to extend my living room by about 30 feet into the garden. :(

Quote
Remind me   some time &  I'll have to demonstrate for you mate.

That would be good.  :y

Kevin
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Dave DND

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Re: How NOT to install ICE !!
« Reply #32 on: 29 January 2008, 13:18:51 »

Blimey!

I wish that some of you guys were around a few years ago when I did this -  

certainly some "sound" knowledge out there !
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