Topic: Another NCDC 2013 Satnav problem (Read 9529 times)

LC0112G · « **on:** 05 May 2010, 14:15:49 »

Hi Guys,
First post so be gentle. I've recently upgraded from a pre to a post facelift OB. The new one had working satnav on the NCDC2013 untill a few weeks ago when I was instructed to do a U turn on the M3 [smiley=shocked.gif] And ever since, the car has thought it was in Cirencester, when it's actually in Somerset. Also, when the clocks went forward/back/whatever, the time didn't change to BS like the manual said it should. TP/RDS still works.

I think there might be a problem with either the aerial or the wiring, but don't know nuffink about the OB systems.

Picture of the Display :

I don't remember the "GPS" logo in the top right hand corner being highlighted when the system was working. Is this right, or does it indicate a fault?

Picture of the aerial - I think?

Does this unit contain the GPS aerial? If so, how easy to remove & inspect the connectors? On a Carlton its a right pig of a job - basically headlining out.

Picture of the ACDC :

Can I just pull this out once I've found the right combination of hammers to belt it with? I don't have a radio 'code' but I'm not sure the 2013 needs one?

Anyhow, thanks for any help. Solve this one for me and there are about 20 others that need answering - mobile phone, Traffic master etc...

Cheers,
Malcolm

VXL V6 · « **Reply #1 on:** 05 May 2010, 17:03:36 »

Well the highlighted GPS means that it doesn't have a GPS signal.

I think i'd start by checking the multi aerial connector in the kick panel.

TheBoy · « **Reply #2 on:** 05 May 2010, 21:29:56 »

Aye, no gps signal.

If you are near me, I'll happily have a look.....

Bose Addict · « **Reply #3 on:** 06 May 2010, 12:09:09 »

No my code card suggests that the 2013 does not have a code.

VXL V6 · « **Reply #4 on:** 06 May 2010, 21:30:50 »

NCDC, NCDR and associated screens and telematics are paired with the immobiliser code.

LC0112G · « **Reply #5 on:** 08 May 2010, 18:24:42 »

Ok - Pulled the passengers side kick panel apart, coz that's where the radio wiring is on a Carlton. Nothing. Then thought (in a Steven Fry voice) Shurely not.

So pulled the drivers side kick panel apart. Ah Ha :-/

Wiggled the coax wires about a bit, but no sign of waking the GPS up. VHF and MW radio work. All the connections seem pretty secure. However, there are three wires running along the sill, but only two of them are connected to run up behind the pedals. I presume the other is for something else not fitted to this Miggie?

I've also bought a double DIN radio removal wire loopy things from Halfrauds, Undid the 4 grub screws, and pushed the wires in. But no matter how much wiggling I do, I can't get the radio to come out. Is there something else holding it in? Or is the Halfrauds removal tool useless?

Any further help gratefully recieved.

Ta
Malcolm

LC0112G · « **Reply #6 on:** 08 May 2010, 18:32:43 »

Quote

Aye, no gps signal.

If you are near me, I'll happily have a look.....

Not very near - Yeovil Somerset. About 100 miles, and without a satnav i'd never find you. And with a satnav, i wouldn;t need to find you

Thanks for the offer. If work brings me close before I get it fixed or end up destroying it, maybee.

VXL V6 · « **Reply #7 on:** 08 May 2010, 20:14:37 »

Spare connector is for phone as the whip on the GPS base is a GSM (phone) antenna, albeit only a unity gain one.

The head units are a nightmare to remove in most cases and it's very easy to break the front bezel off. If it's possible i'd pay a visit to Dave DND.

Before that though, it would be worth dropping the rear centre brake light and checking the aerial connector that is a few inches from the base of the aerial.

LC0112G · « **Reply #8 on:** 09 May 2010, 19:15:15 »

Quote

Spare connector is for phone as the whip on the GPS base is a GSM (phone) antenna, albeit only a unity gain one.

The head units are a nightmare to remove in most cases and it's very easy to break the front bezel off. [size=14]If it's possible i'd pay a visit to Dave DND[/size].

Before that though, it would be worth dropping the rear centre brake light and checking the aerial connector that is a few inches from the base of the aerial.

I'm new round here. Could you give me a clue as to who/where Dave DND is please?

VXL V6 · « **Reply #9 on:** 09 May 2010, 19:31:07 »

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?action=viewprofile;username=5E7B6C7F455E545E1A0

LC0112G · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 May 2010, 09:42:50 »

Quote

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?action=viewprofile;username=5E7B6C7F455E545E1A0

Oh dear. Devon

LC0112G · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 May 2010, 10:13:04 »

Ok. Bought a new/used aerial block off eBay. Unscrewed the coax connector in the footwell, and plugged in the new aerial there. Left it dangling out of the car to see if it would get a signal. Nope. So I re-connected the wiring back to standard.

Next I bit the bullet and pulled off the cover over the high level brake light. Then located the wiring up to the aerial base - what a faff. Pulled it through so I could see the connectors. Both seem secure, but they are both covered in that foam tape stuff. Wiggled things about a bit, but still no GPS signal. Resigned myself to probably have to buy a new NCDC2013 coz either the GPS elecronics are broken, or the front panel would be by the time I'd extracted the unit from the dash to inspect the wiring.

So started to put the brake light cover back. Located both ends in the guides, and a firm thump with the palm of my hand to clip the spring clamps back in. With the last firm thump, Helga chirped up saying "Destination Reached".

For the moment, it's back working again. Not sure what was wrong, or how long it'll stay working. If it packs up again in the near future I'll just thump the rooflining back by the brake light and see if good old percussive maintanace will fix it again.

Cheers Guys
Malcolm

VXL V6 · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 May 2010, 11:29:38 »

Good news

I've heard of the odd aerial failing with the hard frosts but generally its the amp side for the radio on the estates and various other Vauxhalls that suffers.

Is the clamp nut tight and making a good contact to the roof?

Dave DND · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 May 2010, 11:53:01 »

Quote

I'm new round here. Could you give me a clue as to who/where Dave DND is please?

I`m here !!

In Paignton for anyone who is passing through, and if you don`t have a sat nav, drive south/west on the M5 - keep going in a dead straight line for 30 miles and stop when you hit the sea. Look around, and I`m probably the one trying to catch a fish

Not uncommon for those aerials to fail due to water ingress and the seals leaking causing the electronics inside to corrode and fail.

VXL V6 · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 May 2010, 11:54:44 »

Dave

Have you ever managed to locate replacement seals for them? VX only want to supply the complete base.

Dave DND · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 May 2010, 11:57:31 »

Quote

Dave

Have you ever managed to locate replacement seals for them? VX only want to supply the complete base.

No point, once water has gone inside, unit is fubar
even slight traces of corrosion can start to set off the gremlins and with a replacement solution being relatively cheap these days its not worth messing about with them.

Lampynoiseboy · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 May 2010, 11:07:58 »

Quote

Spare connector is for phone as the whip on the GPS base is a GSM (phone) antenna, albeit only a unity gain one.

Daft, and slightly off topic question, but does this apply to all of those type whips? Only as as I hate the stuck on twig for my car kit, and am thinking I can get rid if this one works?
Cheers

VXL V6 · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 May 2010, 14:31:37 »

Saloons with nav have GSM (phone unity gain) and a GPS base, the radio antenna is the heated rear window via and aerial amp.

Estates have GSM (1/4 Wave by the looks of it but at totally the wrong angle! doh) GPS base and radio aerial in the whip.

LC0112G · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 November 2011, 12:20:12 »

Ok an update...

The Satnav worked for a few days, then became intermittent again. In the intermittent phase, it appeared for a while that if I kicked the kick panel I could get it to work for the rest of the journey. But on the next start, it wouldn't work. Eventually even kicking the kick panel wouldn't fix it, and it hasn't worked at all for over a year now. This throws suspicion on the kick panel connectors.

Anyhow, I've had multiple goes at getting the radio out to look at the rear connectors. Doesn't want to budge. Several people have also attempted removal at the ABS Bristol meeting using 'pro' extraction tools - Draper, Snap-Off etc. These have all also failed. The only suggestion was to leave the car unlocked in St Pauls for half an hour and let the local chavs get it out

Now the engine is in bits, and I'm waiting for parts from Vx, so I thought I'd have another go. Last night I removed the aerial unit, and checked the connectors again. I also removed the kick panel (breaking the bonnet release lever in the process!) and re-seated all the connections there. Still GPS got inverted. I've read the other threads about the diagnostic test screens, so I'll try that tonight. But, my question...

The car is an Auto. It's in Park. You can't move the gear selector without starting the engine. The engine is in bits. Is there a way to defeat the gear selector so i can get the radio out?

Also, anyone got a Maplins part number for the SAT-NAV aerial? We've got a Maplins here in Yeovil, so I could rule out the everything up to the kick panel. Is it A47FH ??

Cheers,
Malcolm

fiend61 · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 November 2011, 12:40:05 »

have a lookie here
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=84525.msg1100420#msg1100420

shows how to get it out of park

RobG · « **Reply #20 on:** 22 November 2011, 12:45:14 »

Quote from: LC0112G on 22 November 2011, 12:20:12

Ok an update...

The Satnav worked for a few days, then became intermittent again. In the intermittent phase, it appeared for a while that if I kicked the kick panel I could get it to work for the rest of the journey. But on the next start, it wouldn't work. Eventually even kicking the kick panel wouldn't fix it, and it hasn't worked at all for over a year now. This throws suspicion on the kick panel connectors.

Anyhow, I've had multiple goes at getting the radio out to look at the rear connectors. Doesn't want to budge. Several people have also attempted removal at the ABS Bristol meeting using 'pro' extraction tools - Draper, Snap-Off etc. These have all also failed. The only suggestion was to leave the car unlocked in St Pauls for half an hour and let the local chavs get it out

Now the engine is in bits, and I'm waiting for parts from Vx, so I thought I'd have another go. Last night I removed the aerial unit, and checked the connectors again. I also removed the kick panel (breaking the bonnet release lever in the process!) and re-seated all the connections there. Still GPS got inverted. I've read the other threads about the diagnostic test screens, so I'll try that tonight. But, my question...

The car is an Auto. It's in Park. You can't move the gear selector without starting the engine. The engine is in bits. Is there a way to defeat the gear selector so i can get the radio out?

Also, anyone got a Maplins part number for the SAT-NAV aerial? We've got a Maplins here in Yeovil, so I could rule out the everything up to the kick panel. Is it A47FH ??

Cheers,
Malcolm

Persevere, I`ve removed quite a few of the double-din units with no problems

fiend61 · « **Reply #21 on:** 22 November 2011, 12:51:34 »

also i dont think maplins do the actual car aerial , but they do an internal aerial dont know if they are any dood though $:-\$
http://www.maplin.co.uk/sat-nav-external-patch-antenna-48721

TheBoy · « **Reply #22 on:** 22 November 2011, 18:42:34 »

Sounds like you know the fault is in the kick panel, where there is a connector for the satnav coax

LC0112G · « **Reply #23 on:** 22 November 2011, 19:56:29 »

Quote from: TheBoy on 22 November 2011, 18:42:34

Sounds like you know the fault is in the kick panel, where there is a connector for the satnav coax

Who knows? Kick the kick panel hard enough and some force will make it as far as the radio and/or roof aerial.

Anywho. Some progress tonight. Managed to get the sat-nav into Diagnostic mode. No camera, so pinching Aaron's idea, display shows...

12/00 HDP0.0 DG 13:06 A S0.0
N50:50:11. W02:38:35 H+0100 R0
N0- 0 N0- 0 N0- 0 N0- 0
N0- 0 N0- 0 N0- 0 N0- 0

Which is apparantly somewhere in Ludlow. So next step, lift the gearstick gaitor, defeat the parking lock, and start another attempt at extraction.

I modified my Halfords dual din extractors as shown in one of the other posts. after mich wiggling and jiggling it finally came out. Then the problem with the cheapo extractors was obvious. They splay out too much, such that by the time they get far enough in to engage the clips, they actually miss. So note to anyone using these things - make sure you bend them so that the two arms are parallel when they go through the hole in the front panel.

Next step, peer into the back of the radio cage. It all looked pretty good to me - seen much worse on aircraft. So I decided to buzz check the wiring from the Din cage to the kick panel. Both inner and screen OK, and virtually infinate resistance between them.

Next up, something those in the know won't like - but i figured that if it's goosed already then to hell with it - i measured the input impedance of the satnav aerial terminal on the back of the radio - measured 10K ohms ish.

So I plugged the radio back in (partly to listen to the Simon Mayo Confession on Radio 2), and measured the impedance between the core and screen of the cable to the radio in the footwell. Measured minus 6K ohms ish. Funny measurement, but the radio was powered on, and as long as it isn't zero or infinate, then hey-ho.

So then measured the impedance of the cable from the footwell to the roof aerial. Ah-haa. Zero ohms - well 0.03 ohms once I'd changes scales on the DVM.

Next step - disconnect the roof aerial and repeat the test. Again still measured 0.03 ohms at the footwell. Aditionally, measured 0.01 ohms at the roof end.

So - It looks like I've got a short in the coax cable between the roof and the footwell - most likely at the roof end. Bugga. I'll have a trawl through the RS and Farnell catalogues at work tomorrow, but these sorts of small RF connectors usually require expensive crimp tools to assemble which we won't have. Anyone ever replaced this cable?

The other trick I know about is to take a fully charged car battery, connect the negative to the screen and the positive to the core. Wherever the cable catches fire - that's where the short is

if you'r lucky, it'll clear the short. If you're unluck, your car burns to the ground

LC0112G · « **Reply #24 on:** 22 November 2011, 20:00:12 »

Quote from: fiend61 on 22 November 2011, 12:51:34

also i dont think maplins do the actual car aerial , but they do an internal aerial dont know if they are any dood though $:-\$
http://www.maplin.co.uk/sat-nav-external-patch-antenna-48721

Bought one of these lunchtime. Unfortunatley - it's the wrong connector on the end of the wire, so you can't screw it into the Omeca loom. Shame - would be a goos cheap test and possible replacement for a FUBAR roof aerial unit.

aaronjb · « **Reply #25 on:** 22 November 2011, 20:06:33 »

I think the '12/00' indicates it can 'see' 12 satellites, but is using none of them - which, last time someone had that fault, was a problem with the navigation CD (i.e. the NCDC couldn't read it)..

Though that would seem to be contradicted by your resistance readings?

LC0112G · « **Reply #26 on:** 22 November 2011, 20:14:53 »

Quote from: aaronjb on 22 November 2011, 20:06:33

I think the '12/00' indicates it can 'see' 12 satellites, but is using none of them - which, last time someone had that fault, was a problem with the navigation CD (i.e. the NCDC couldn't read it)..

Though that would seem to be contradicted by your resistance readings?

I don't think it can mean that, since the aeriel cable was disconnected in the footwell at the time. I suspect it means that it *thinks* it should be able to see 12 satellites (based on current time, date and last position) but it can only actually see 0 satellites. At least that's what I understood previous posts to mean.

Also the car is in a garage. Brick walls and asbestos roof, with a few high buildings nearby. So I'm not sure if it'll work there anyway. FM radiko receprion is OK though, so maybe,

LC0112G · « **Reply #27 on:** 22 November 2011, 20:20:13 »

Also - I noticed in one of the earlier photos..

See on the satnav cable - it says "Sample". Do they all say that, or were Opel being cheapscates and used engineering sample cable in my car. Gits.

LC0112G · « **Reply #28 on:** 24 November 2011, 20:18:51 »

Anyone know what the inline plugs are called in the sat-nav aerial wiring? They are smaller than F's, and larger than SMA's.

Tonight I wiggled and jiggled the connector in the kickpanel, but couldn't clear the short. So I bit the bullet, pulled off the OSR C pillar trim, and pulled the roof wiring out. Sure enough, wiggling and jiggling that connector cleared and made the short. I then pulled the connector off the end of the cable. And then the short was obvious. Whoever crimped this connector on wants a kicking.

I've searched high and low for the connector type, but can't find it. I thought about stripping out the telephone cabling and using that, but the telephon is female-female, whereas the sat-nav is male-male, so that won't work. I've cleaned the connector up best I can so I could possibly re-use it, but I really, REALLY don't like electrical bodges.

Any ideas?

LC0112G · « **Reply #29 on:** 25 November 2011, 20:29:00 »

Wooo-Hoooo. Fixed it. I managed to uncrimp the connector, clean up the cable ends and re-crimp. Plugged it all back in and after about 2 minutes, the debug display starts picking up statelites. Once it's locked onto (IIRC) 5, up chirps Nagging Nora demanding that "The destination is in the indicated direction".

So all I've got to do now is fix the bonnet release cable back. Oh - and finnd smoe nice kind soul wiyh a cheap CID for sale

aaronjb · « **Reply #30 on:** 25 November 2011, 20:30:41 »

Nicely done

Now, how far away are you, and will you come and re-crimp mine? I just remembered that last time I pulled the headlining down in the back, the connector fell off the end of the wire .. which could be a large part of my problem!

LC0112G · « **Reply #31 on:** 25 November 2011, 20:55:14 »

Quote from: aaronjb on 25 November 2011, 20:30:41

Nicely done

Now, how far away are you, and will you come and re-crimp mine? I just remembered that last time I pulled the headlining down in the back, the connector fell off the end of the wire .. which could be a large part of my problem!

I think the connector type is called an "FME".

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coaxial-Connector-FME-male-Fits-RG58-LMR195-/280666949552?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4451642004992124988

The sat-nav wiring is male to male in the loom (from roof to kick panel). The connector will need special tools to assemble. Another option is just to buy two connectors and a length of suitable coax, and just replace/bypass the whole lot. If can;t do it yourself, then any decent techie could probably make up it up for you.

The other thing I wondered about was using the phone cable instead (my car hasn't got, and never will have a built in government big brother Eschilon tracking device) The phone cable is female to female in the loom, so you would need two gender-benders, one for the roof end and one for the kick panel end. Can't see any on eBay, but RS do them I think.

Another option if you think your aerial base is fubar is to buy a Satnav aerial with an FME male connector on it - something like this.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GPS-Active-Antenna-FME-male-connector-2M-3M-5M-/380337248482?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588dddd8e2

Just a tip - if trying to repair the in car loom, don't just pull the aerial wiring out into the C pillar. Tie a bit of string to it first, and then pull the string through as you pull the cabels out. That way, you can repair the cable, tie it back to the string, and then use the string to pull the cable back up the C pillar and along the roof channel. With nothing to pull it through, its a git of a job.

Andy H · « **Reply #32 on:** 26 November 2011, 12:14:00 »

Quote from: LC0112G on 24 November 2011, 20:18:51

Anyone know what the inline plugs are called in the sat-nav aerial wiring? They are smaller than F's, and larger than SMA's.

Tonight I wiggled and jiggled the connector in the kickpanel, but couldn't clear the short. So I bit the bullet, pulled off the OSR C pillar trim, and pulled the roof wiring out. Sure enough, wiggling and jiggling that connector cleared and made the short. I then pulled the connector off the end of the cable. And then the short was obvious. Whoever crimped this connector on wants a kicking.

I've searched high and low for the connector type, but can't find it. I thought about stripping out the telephone cabling and using that, but the telephon is female-female, whereas the sat-nav is male-male, so that won't work. I've cleaned the connector up best I can so I could possibly re-use it, but I really, REALLY don't like electrical bodges.

Any ideas?

Put a WANTED ad in the testing section (with a request for the admins to move it to the for sale & wanted section)

Lampynoiseboy · « **Reply #33 on:** 20 February 2012, 21:04:39 »

Quote from: VXL V6 on 12 May 2010, 11:54:44

Dave

Have you ever managed to locate replacement seals for them? VX only want to supply the complete base.

Quote from: Dave DND on 12 May 2010, 11:53:01

Quote
I'm new round here. Could you give me a clue as to who/where Dave DND is please?

I`m here !!

In Paignton for anyone who is passing through, and if you don`t have a sat nav, drive south/west on the M5 - keep going in a dead straight line for 30 miles and stop when you hit the sea. Look around, and I`m probably the one trying to catch a fish

Not uncommon for those aerials to fail due to water ingress and the seals leaking causing the electronics inside to corrode and fail.

Try catching seals?

Sorry, i'll get my coat......

News:

Author Topic: Another NCDC 2013 Satnav problem (Read 9529 times)

aaronjb

aaronjb