Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: polilara on 26 March 2021, 07:39:01

Title: Caravan Mass
Post by: polilara on 26 March 2021, 07:39:01
What is technically the difference of 2.5/2.6 or 3.2/2.6 as both 2.5 and 3.2 have higher allowable mass of a mobile home with brakes (left column), brakes might be same and 2.6 has more power than 2.5. Difficult to understand. Would like to increase in my 2.6 it to 1850kg.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsRD5dB2/Mass.jpg)
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: GrahamK on 26 March 2021, 12:01:13
Hello,

I have some experience of towing (mostly caravans) with 3 different Omega's. One 2.5 and a pair of 2.6's.

My initial response to your question is, I would think carefully.

The reasoning for this is the quoted rating is a combination of vehicle weight, power, gearing, brakes and the safety regulations in force at the time the assessment was made. Although looking at the 2.5 Vs 2.6 many of those parameters will be the same or very similar, not all are. It is confusing, but the published data is the published data. This is what would be referred to in the event of an incident.
My last point is nothing to do with the law, as such, but seems to me to be based on a degree of reasonable common sense. Here in the UK we have an organisation called the Caravan Club. In my opinion, they are exceedingly up their own arses in most respects. They recommend to not exceed 80% of the towing car mass in your choice of trailer (or caravan). Based on experience of towing various rigs, some of which did not conform to the Caravan Club recommendations, for stability and towing comfort I think they are right on this point. Of course, many people exceed this and have done so for many years. The curb weight of a typical Omega is around 1600Kg+-
1875 is a fair bit heavier than that. We have a phrase, the "tail wagging the dog"
Whatever you decide to do, good luck in your travels.
Graham.


Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 26 March 2021, 12:07:39
Hello,

I have some experience of towing (mostly caravans) with 3 different Omega's. One 2.5 and a pair of 2.6's.

My initial response to your question is, I would think carefully.

The reasoning for this is the quoted rating is a combination of vehicle weight, power, gearing, brakes and the safety regulations in force at the time the assessment was made. Although looking at the 2.5 Vs 2.6 many of those parameters will be the same or very similar, not all are. It is confusing, but the published data is the published data. This is what would be referred to in the event of an incident.
My last point is nothing to do with the law, as such, but seems to me to be based on a degree of reasonable common sense. Here in the UK we have an organisation called the Caravan Club. In my opinion, they are exceedingly up their own arses in most respects. They recommend to not exceed 80% of the towing car mass in your choice of trailer (or caravan). Based on experience of towing various rigs, some of which did not conform to the Caravan Club recommendations, for stability and towing comfort I think they are right on this point. Of course, many people exceed this and have done so for many years. The curb weight of a typical Omega is around 1600Kg+-
1875 is a fair bit heavier than that. We have a phrase, the "tail wagging the dog"
Whatever you decide to do, good luck in your travels.
Graham.



In short. You can't.

Although where did you get that table from? The numbers are suspicious. GM deliberately doesn't include general towing weights in the Omega hand book on the basis that each trim affects it (ie sunroof/no sunroof), instead it refers you to the chassis plate for that particular vehicle.

On your chassis plate in the front door frame there's information. This tells you what you can tow with that chassis:

1. Manufacturer (Opel/Vauxhall/Cadillac/Chevrolet).
2. Type approval number.
3. VIN.
4. Permissible gross (max) VEHICLE weight.
5. Permissible gross (max) TRAIN (car plus trailer) weight.
6. Max front axle weight.
7. Max rear axle weight.
8. Paint/trim code and any local market info.

Basically you subtract 4. from 5. This gives you the maximum you can tow with that chassis.

Changing the gearbox and engine won't change the amount that that particular car can LEGALLY tow.

If you happen to be pulled over or get check weighed and it is a heavier trailer than the plate allows for then you are in trouble:

Potentially no insurance, unroadworthy vehicle, dangerous load, no licence (for the weight of the car plus trailer).

Also, if you ignore the maximum weights and have an accident, again your insurers won't pay, and it could cost you your house/property.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 26 March 2021, 12:10:05
To Grahams' point, the Caravan Club don't set the law, and the Omega handbook makes absolutely zero reference to permissible trailer weights. Which makes any 'publushed' figures questionable.  ;)
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Andy B on 26 March 2021, 15:17:36
.....
They recommend to not exceed 80% of the towing car mass  ....

85%   ;)
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 26 March 2021, 15:30:26
Good to see there's some people who know about towing amongst us.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 26 March 2021, 16:07:13
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 26 March 2021, 17:48:49
Good to see there's some people who know about towing amongst us.

There obviously isn't.

Dangerous load - a larger than permitted yrsiler doesn't cobstitute a dangerous load, and being over the recommended weight doesn't make the outfit dangerous.
No licence - have to be an extremely heavy vehicle and trailer to fall outside the permitted weights for category B+ E
Unroadworthy vehicle - again an overweight doesn't make the outfit unroadworthy. 
No insurance - being over weight doesn't automatically void any insurance
 
Tap room lawyers.... ::)
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 26 March 2021, 17:52:19
Never heard of a yrsiler.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 26 March 2021, 17:52:47
Those are potential implications.

FACT remains, the OPs Omega can ONLY tow the maximum weight directed by the Chassis plate ie Gross train weight LESS Gross vehicle weight.

If that is wrong, then perhaps you would care to read your owners manual and explain why.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Raeturbo on 26 March 2021, 18:59:52
Or... as it says on the tin.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 26 March 2021, 19:11:17
Obey the rules which are easily accessible, simple.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 26 March 2021, 19:13:59
Obey the rules which are easily accessible, simple.
Just inside the front door in fact ;D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Raeturbo on 26 March 2021, 20:58:45
Or.. on the tin👍
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 26 March 2021, 23:01:23
Those are potential implications.

FACT remains, the OPs Omega can ONLY tow the maximum weight directed by the Chassis plate ie Gross train weight LESS Gross vehicle weight.

If that is wrong, then perhaps you would care to read your owners manual and explain why.

I never said that the maximum axle / gvw or mgw (as it used to be) maw / train weights should not be exceeded. That is a specific offence in its own right. Whilst normally seen being used in connection with offences committed with goods vehicles, they can also be still applied to 'cars' that have the manufactures axle and maximum authorised vehicle weights displayed. This is more difficult to enforce with older cars that only have a VIN / chassis plate with no specific vehicle weights available, other than recommendations by the vehicles manufacturer.
My point was that the potential aspects you referred to are not offences relative to towing a yrsiler (sorry - trailer  :D......my fault for using my phone to post :y) that is deemed to be over weight relative to the towing vehicle. There are specific offences for exceeding the permitted axle / gvw or train weight now known as the maw (often referred to an 'over weight' vehicle) which the offender would be summoned for,  but the other matters would not be offences that would even be considered when there is a specific offence covering the actions of the offender.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 27 March 2021, 00:06:35
Just check your manual, dead easy.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 00:54:14
Those are potential implications.

FACT remains, the OPs Omega can ONLY tow the maximum weight directed by the Chassis plate ie Gross train weight LESS Gross vehicle weight.

If that is wrong, then perhaps you would care to read your owners manual and explain why.

I never said that the maximum axle / gvw or mgw (as it used to be) maw / train weights should not be exceeded. That is a specific offence in its own right. Whilst normally seen being used in connection with offences committed with goods vehicles, they can also be still applied to 'cars' that have the manufactures axle and maximum authorised vehicle weights displayed. This is more difficult to enforce with older cars that only have a VIN / chassis plate with no specific vehicle weights available, other than recommendations by the vehicles manufacturer.
My point was that the potential aspects you referred to are not offences relative to towing a yrsiler (sorry - trailer  :D......my fault for using my phone to post :y) that is deemed to be over weight relative to the towing vehicle. There are specific offences for exceeding the permitted axle / gvw or train weight now known as the maw (often referred to an 'over weight' vehicle) which the offender would be summoned for,  but the other matters would not be offences that would even be considered when there is a specific offence covering the actions of the offender.
OP is in Finland, so the penalties won't necessarily scale in the same way as here, although I'm sure they will take a dim view of deliberately exceeding the plated weight regardless of vehicle type.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 27 March 2021, 10:23:34
Just check your manual, dead easy.

It would be dead easy if the permissible weights were actually detailed in it, but they aren't - well not in mine.
The VIN sticker is the only reference for the permissable weights.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 27 March 2021, 10:28:06
Just check your manual, dead easy.

It would be dead easy if the permissible weights were actually detailed in it, but they aren't - well not in mine.
The VIN sticker is the only reference for the permissable weights.
.

I towed with my Omega estate everything was quite clearly stated in the owners handbook, why would it not be ?
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 10:41:43
Just check your manual, dead easy.

It would be dead easy if the permissible weights were actually detailed in it, but they aren't - well not in mine.
The VIN sticker is the only reference for the permissable weights.
Exactly.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 10:42:56
Just check your manual, dead easy.

It would be dead easy if the permissible weights were actually detailed in it, but they aren't - well not in mine.
The VIN sticker is the only reference for the permissable weights.
.

I towed with my Omega estate everything was quite clearly stated in the owners handbook, why would it not be ?
They aren't.

Gross vehicle weights and payload are, but not train weights.

If the OP wants to know how much his 2.6 can tow he needs to be looking at the chassis plate. If the difference between gross train and gross vehicle isn't enough, he needs a different car. Simples.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 27 March 2021, 10:46:31
They were in mine , a lot of folk don't bother with reading things thoroughly, it's not just on this forum always get knowledge from reading the manual it ain't rocket science. (2003 Omega estate)
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 10:54:53
They were.
Not in the October 2002 one they're not :-X

And if you read the relevant pages of the download version, (221-225) there's no mention of towing capacity anywhere, just kerb and maximum VEHICLE weights along with a list of 'heavy accessories'.

The only hint at towing capacity is on the page explaining the chassis plates.

Even Johhnydog conceedes this point and he knows as much as Lizzie.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 27 March 2021, 10:59:49
No point in me reading it cars longtime gone , it's what I read at the time so it was simple to do the mathematics ,it wasn't a particularly difficult read either not a bad towcar & load lugger.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: YZ250 on 27 March 2021, 11:19:12
Just check your manual, dead easy.

It would be dead easy if the permissible weights were actually detailed in it, but they aren't - well not in mine.
The VIN sticker is the only reference for the permissable weights.
.

I towed with my Omega estate everything was quite clearly stated in the owners handbook, why would it not be ?

I towed with both of my Omega estates and many cars before them and the info was definitely there to make use of.  :y

If I remember correctly the car plate showed the max car weight, max gross train weight and max axle loads. Edit: Just looked at the sticker online and it's definitely got that info.
You then obviously need the kerb weight, which should be in the hand book to show various derivatives.

The caravan plate has always showed variations of MIRO (Mass in running order - caravan weight empty), MTPLM (Maximum technically permissible laden mass - the heaviest the van should be fully loaded) and Payload, which is generally the difference between the other two figures.

As we all know, or should do if we tow, the main thing is to find the vehicle kerb weight and then choose a caravan that has a MTPLM which is equal to or preferably lower than the vehicle kerb weight (the unloaded tow vehicle). That means that your empty tow vehicle should be equal to or heavier than your loaded caravan, so when you load your tow vehicle it will outweigh the loaded van to an even greater percentage.  :y
You can word this how you like but that's the safest combination. The tow vehicle maximum towing weight and maximum loaded weight is rarely of interest unless you think you are getting close to breaking the gross train weight, which is an offence.  I've seen caravans being escorted to a weigh bridge.  :y

This isn't aimed at anyone, as anyone that's tows would already know this. It's just a generalisation of the calculations for those not aware of the calculations.  :y
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 11:22:33
As an aside the SALES brochure does give general towing capacities, with a hefty caveat regarding permitted loadings.

For the OP, and allowing for the fact that the information is for UK ONLY...

Saloons can tow more than estates and manuals can tow more than autos.

EXCEPT the 3.2 auto, which can tow 1,875kgs regardless of shape.

Looking at the chassis plate for the 3.2 manual, it can't actually tow anything as there's no Train weight given.

So in order to tow moree than his 2.6 allows, he either needs a 3.2 or better yet a different car. Most E Class estates can tow 2,100 kgs and being in Euroland, are available with 4 wheel drive with most engines.

The plate on the vehicle will reflect the 'As built' weight.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 27 March 2021, 11:23:06
If you are going to tow it's probably the first thing you look up or enquire about.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Kevin Wood on 27 March 2021, 11:45:37
Well, this has been a useful exercise in that it prompted me to look at the plate on the XE.

When I bought it the "towing weight" advertised was 1800Kg, which seemed adequate so I didn't look further. That was probably a marketing figure, not aimed at a specific model.

Sometime after buying it I looked at the manual which showed the max train weight for my model as 3290Kg and the kerb weight as 1535, which means it's got to be unladen to get to 1755 Kg, let alone 1800!

Turns out, it's a misprint in the manual and the MTW is 3920! That's more like it.

Just goes to show, the best way is to check the plate on the vehicle. That's what the police will do in the unlikely event that they escort you to a weighbridge.

EDIT: Unladen and unoccupied, for that matter. Roll on driverless cars. :D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 27 March 2021, 11:51:18
When you see some of the mismatched units out on the road I really wonder how the driver would cope in unfortunate situation, last year I saw a caravan with its arse end nearly scraping the surface of the motorway , it was eventually stopped by one of the  highways agency vehicles we saw it being escorted into the services.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Kevin Wood on 27 March 2021, 11:53:29
A situation not helped by the bonkers licensing rules which now incentivise towing with the lightest vehicle you can find. ::)
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Nick W on 27 March 2021, 12:17:13
When you see some of the mismatched units out on the road I really wonder how the driver would cope in unfortunate situation, last year I saw a caravan with its arse end nearly scraping the surface of the motorway , it was eventually stopped by one of the  highways agency vehicles we saw it being escorted into the services.


Lots of trailer owners have never serviced them, or even checked the tyres.
Many people massively overload them.
There are lots of homemade trailers that are utterly inadequate.
One of the better things to come out of the licence changes was the need for drivers new to towing to take some instruction.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 27 March 2021, 12:32:06
Got to agree with you there , but how often do you see Police doing any kind of checks now ? I bet a lot of drivers haven't got a clue about tyre pressures & age advice on tyres trouble is now with lack of foreign holidays there will be a lot of old & non serviced units taking to the road for the first time.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 12:34:34
DVSA are pretty hot on that sort of thing. And they don't take prisoners.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 27 March 2021, 15:15:38
I have regularly towed a twin axle car transporter with my 3.2 saloon, with varying vehicles on it. Whilst it towed everything I have asked it to, and towed them very well I might add, I'm certain some vehicles on it would have been 'technically' and 'legally' putting the outfit over the maximum permitted train weight (or maw).
Car transporters are a lot heavier when laden than caravans, but tow a great deal better due to being twin or triple axles and not being 'slab sided'.
As stated earlier, many trailer are poorly maintained, and look like home made outfits. I have have always worked on the assumption that if an outfit (car and trailer plus load) looks ''the part" and is well balanced (towbar not scraping the road surface for example - one benefit of self levelling suspension), and is being towed sensibly (the trailer for example is not controlling the car on a downhill), the driver appears to 'know' how to tow a trailer, the load is strapped correctly, all lights work, the no.plates correspond etc etc, then it is not going to attract attention.
I do maintain my trailers well, they look the business, and despite being possibly a little over the maximum authorised weights on the odd occasion, I have passed VOSA vehicles, Motorway Police vehicles, and they have not batted an eyelid. I accept that you shouldn't be overweight, and I wouldn't suggest to anyone to be overweight, but I strongly believe that if an outfit looks right, and is not 'a puller' visually to the authorities, you will be left alone.
Before anyone says it, I do know about the argument about 'if something went wrong'.....


Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Andy B on 27 March 2021, 15:31:27
....

One of the better things to come out of the licence changes was the need for drivers new to towing to take some instruction.

But you don't if your outfit is less than 3500kg and the trailer is not heavier than the car. A novice driver (I don't know if you now need to have had your licence for so long before you can tow) can hook up a 1740kg trailer to his/her 1750 car & off they go .... but they'd not be allowed to use my 2200kg car even though it'd be far safer.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 15:59:42
....

One of the better things to come out of the licence changes was the need for drivers new to towing to take some instruction.

But you don't if your outfit is less than 3500kg and the trailer is not heavier than the car. A novice driver (I don't know if you now need to have had your licence for so long before you can tow) can hook up a 1740kg trailer to his/her 1750 car & off they go .... but they'd not be allowed to use my 2200kg car even though it'd be far safer.
Only if you have +E on your car entitlement  ;)

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Broomies Mate on 27 March 2021, 16:04:42

Only if you have +E on your car entitlement  ;)

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car


Licences issued from 1 January 1997

If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:

    drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
    tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

Isn't that what Andy said?
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 16:09:44
I have regularly towed a twin axle car transporter with my 3.2 saloon, with varying vehicles on it. Whilst it towed everything I have asked it to, and towed them very well I might add, I'm certain some vehicles on it would have been 'technically' and 'legally' putting the outfit over the maximum permitted train weight (or maw).
Car transporters are a lot heavier when laden than caravans, but tow a great deal better due to being twin or triple axles and not being 'slab sided'.
As stated earlier, many trailer are poorly maintained, and look like home made outfits. I have have always worked on the assumption that if an outfit (car and trailer plus load) looks ''the part" and is well balanced (towbar not scraping the road surface for example - one benefit of self levelling suspension), and is being towed sensibly (the trailer for example is not controlling the car on a downhill), the driver appears to 'know' how to tow a trailer, the load is strapped correctly, all lights work, the no.plates correspond etc etc, then it is not going to attract attention.
I do maintain my trailers well, they look the business, and despite being possibly a little over the maximum authorised weights on the odd occasion, I have passed VOSA vehicles, Motorway Police vehicles, and they have not batted an eyelid. I accept that you shouldn't be overweight, and I wouldn't suggest to anyone to be overweight, but I strongly believe that if an outfit looks right, and is not 'a puller' visually to the authorities, you will be left alone.
Before anyone says it, I do know about the argument about 'if something went wrong'.....
A 750kg car trailer is probably within the scope of the 3.2 Omega as long as you don't go over an 1,125kg load... 1,875kg max trailer weight. Depends on what you're transporting. Ultimately, the trailer will almost certainly carry more weight than the car might be type approved for.

The extra 225kg the E Class can tow doesn't sound like much, but if you go for a 500kg twin axle car trailer, then it will legally and technically tow a four cylinder Omega saloon. Just.

Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 16:13:54

Only if you have +E on your car entitlement  ;)

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car


Licences issued from 1 January 1997

If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:

    drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
    tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

Isn't that what Andy said?
You're right, as was Andy, I took it to be a 750kg limit.

It does rather beg the question as to why you would do that though ???
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Broomies Mate on 27 March 2021, 16:17:47

It does rather beg the question as to why you would do that though ???

No.  It begs the question as to WHY this rule has been put in place.  As Andy quite correctly says, his 2,200KG car would be far safer towing a 1500KG trailer than a 1500KG car towing a 1500KG trailer.

The law is an ass!
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 16:29:28

It does rather beg the question as to why you would do that though ???

No.  It begs the question as to WHY this rule has been put in place.  As Andy quite correctly says, his 2,200KG car would be far safer towing a 1500KG trailer than a 1500KG car towing a 1500KG trailer.

The law is an ass!
Indeed :y what I was thinking as I typed that was why buy the smallest towing vehicle for the maximum tow weight and not do any additional training... The training and a heavier tow car are both beneficial to anyone looking to tow anything more than a 250kg box trailer to the tip once a month.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 27 March 2021, 16:31:50
The 750kg aspect is only relative to unbraked trailers - it is the maximum for any unbraked trailer irrespective of axles /size etc.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 16:37:31
From a licence perspective.

For clarity, in response to your car tailer post, that 750kg was with respect to the typical unladen weight of a heavy duty twin axle car trailer.  ;)

You would probably struggle to get a three axle trailer much under a ton unladen.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Nick W on 27 March 2021, 16:48:36

Indeed :y what I was thinking as I typed that was why buy the smallest towing vehicle for the maximum tow weight and not do any additional training... The training and a heavier tow car are both beneficial to anyone looking to tow anything more than a 250kg box trailer to the tip once a month.


Towing heavy trailers is an actual reason for owning a large 4x4 that won't get used off road. Although a large(ish) van is just as good.




Your first point applies to everything though; if you're constantly pushing the size limits of your equipment, you need different equipment.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: biggriffin on 27 March 2021, 16:57:24

It does rather beg the question as to why you would do that though ???

No.  It begs the question as to WHY this rule has been put in place.  As Andy quite correctly says, his 2,200KG car would be far safer towing a 1500KG trailer than a 1500KG car towing a 1500KG trailer.

The law is an ass!


 Sorry but it's to tempting. My works vehicle weighs 8.0t and tows a 8.5t trailer which in turn loaded weighs 44t... I know different gravey. ;D I'll leave now.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 17:03:23
But proper tow vehicles and their trailers have proper brakes. Which is nice  8)

Also that 8t tow car is designed to tow a 34t trailer. An Omega is not :D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 27 March 2021, 17:58:13
From a licence perspective.

For clarity, in response to your car tailer post, that 750kg was with respect to the typical unladen weight of a heavy duty twin axle car trailer.  ;)

You would probably struggle to get a three axle trailer much under a ton unladen.

You have lost me there.
I don't recall mentioning anything relative to 750kg and the use of my car transporter ::) which is most definitely in excess of 750kg...
Any unbraked trailer has a gvw of 750kg irrespective of size, axles, weight etc.....whether you have a licence category prior to 1997, Grandfather rights or a licence since 1997. If the trailer is not braked, then that is the largest gvw of any trailer permitted to be towed irrespective of your licence. It's the trailer brakes (or lack of them) that detemines the gross weight limit in this respect. If it has brakes, then the points you mentioned are applicable where the licence conditions must be met i.e. trailers over 750kg gross with a licence issued after 1997 as long as the maw combined is less than 3500kg.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: biggriffin on 27 March 2021, 18:14:56
From a licence perspective.

For clarity, in response to your car tailer post, that 750kg was with respect to the typical unladen weight of a heavy duty twin axle car trailer.  ;)

You would probably struggle to get a three axle trailer much under a ton unladen.

You have lost me there.
I don't recall mentioning anything relative to 750kg and the use of my car transporter ::) which is most definitely in excess of 750kg...
Any unbraked trailer has a gvw of 750kg irrespective of size, axles, weight etc.....whether you have a licence category prior to 1997, Grandfather rights or a licence since 1997. If the trailer is not braked, then that is the largest gvw of any trailer permitted to be towed irrespective of your licence. It's the trailer brakes (or lack of them) that detemines the gross weight limit in this respect. If it has brakes, then the points you mentioned are applicable where the licence conditions must be met i.e. trailers over 750kg gross with a licence issued after 1997 as long as the maw combined is less than 3500kg.

 If you want to start something, take the above post,and put it on TNUK, then runaway and his, because it will start something,as any mention of the above does if you want to make it better mention A-frames and nose weight.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 18:17:47
You didn't. I used it, and 500kg, as examples of the unladen weights of car trailers that I have rented locally.

If you're using heavier trailers and delivering anything heavier than an old Mini or Sprite, then the Omega is only suitable, and safe, to deliver the empty trailer.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Nick W on 27 March 2021, 18:26:54
You didn't. I used it, and 500kg, as examples of the unladen weights of car trailers that I have rented locally.

If you're using heavier trailers and delivering anything heavier than an old Mini or Sprite, then the Omega is only suitable, and safe, to deliver the empty trailer.


That is also something you have to careful when using van based car transporters. The Citroen Relay I drove before quitting recovery was a FWD chassis cab with all aluminium rear and bed, yet didn't have the capacity to legally carry my Omega.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 18:44:38
That doesn't surprise me ;)

Not unusual to see 3.5t transporters empty but towing a twin axle trailer with a full size car on it... Trying to ruse their way around tachos and CPC  ::)
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 27 March 2021, 18:55:01
I've only ever been "pulled " once when towing I'd been to a place in Kent to collect my mates MGB GT V8 which he had bought sight unseen from New Zealand we were followed into the services at Stansted , they checked my licence + all tyres but all they were really interested in was the MGB.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 19:00:22
Been pulled in three times due to their Operator 'Traffic light' system rather than for any infringements.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Andy B on 27 March 2021, 19:15:17

Only if you have +E on your car entitlement  ;)

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car


Licences issued from 1 January 1997

If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:

    drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
    tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

Isn't that what Andy said?

It is!  :y
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 19:59:04

Only if you have +E on your car entitlement  ;)

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car


Licences issued from 1 January 1997

If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:

    drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
    tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

Isn't that what Andy said?

It is!  :y
;)
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: YZ250 on 27 March 2021, 20:38:00
Just watched an old Fifth Gear where Jason Plato was towing an Eterniti Genesis IB4 caravan with a Mercedes G Wagon V8 AMG. The caravans MiRO was 1860kg and he did a towing 0-60mph in 9.4 seconds.  :o ;D
And I thought the Overfinch was quick.  :D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Andy B on 27 March 2021, 20:57:03
Just watched an old Fifth Gear where Jason Plato was towing an Eterniti Genesis IB4 caravan with a Mercedes G Wagon V8 AMG. The caravans MiRO was 1860kg and he did a towing 0-60mph in 9.4 seconds.  :o ;D
And I thought the Overfinch was quick.  :D

I saw that ....  ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo_tP-5M1zg
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 27 March 2021, 20:57:14

If you're using heavier trailers and delivering anything heavier than an old Mini or Sprite, then the Omega is only suitable, and safe, to deliver the empty trailer.

Rubbish.
I can tow far heavier than an 'old Mini' or 'Sprite' My car trailer is a twin axle, with double 16' wheel beds (rather than the heavier flat bed) which are positioned between the axles rather than above them (as on a heavier flat bed) so the centre of gravity is low. It has an unladen weight of 740kg, and my 1970s Triumphs have an unladen weight of 23cwt (1170kg), so I am slightly above the stated permissible towing weight of 1850kg when towing those.
I accept that I am probably over on the towball nose weight, but the laden trailer sits well; only slightly lower at the nose than the tail, but this is preferable for stability purposes. The outfit is very stable when laden.
The 85% suggested towing weight by the CC is only a a guide and was suggested way back when vehicles towing cabilities were a lot less - 100% is quite acceptable with more modern vehicles.
The Omega is one of the best tow cars I've had; however the Range Rover is the absolute king of towing vehicles I've had experience of,  but some 4WD SUV's have laughable towing capabilities....
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Andy B on 27 March 2021, 21:02:04
.....
The Omega is one of the best tow cars I've had; however the Range Rover is the absolute king of towing vehicles I've had experience of,  but some 4WD SUV's have laughable towing capabilities....
I towed a large single axle caravan miles with my Omega. The same caravan was then towed with my R Class .... a piece of cake. The ML though makes towing my 1865kg twin a dream .... obviously you know it's there, but it does it effortlessly. It has a gross train weight of around 6500kg ......   ;) ;)
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 27 March 2021, 21:12:20
I've used a Granada ,Omega, Hyundai Terracan Nissan Patrol & now the Range Rover to tow caravans the RR for me has been the best of all of them.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Broomies Mate on 27 March 2021, 21:22:54

If you're using heavier trailers and delivering anything heavier than an old Mini or Sprite, then the Omega is only suitable, and safe, to deliver the empty trailer.

Rubbish.
I can tow far heavier than an 'old Mini' or 'Sprite' My car trailer is a twin axle, with double 16' wheel beds (rather than the heavier flat bed) which are positioned between the axles rather than above them (as on a heavier flat bed) so the centre of gravity is low. It has an unladen weight of 740kg, and my 1970s Triumphs have an unladen weight of 23cwt (1170kg), so I am slightly above the stated permissible towing weight of 1850kg when towing those.
I accept that I am probably over on the towball nose weight, but the laden trailer sits well; only slightly lower at the nose than the tail, but this is preferable for stability purposes. The outfit is very stable when laden.
The 85% suggested towing weight by the CC is only a a guide and was suggested way back when vehicles towing cabilities were a lot less - 100% is quite acceptable with more modern vehicles.
The Omega is one of the best tow cars I've had; however the Range Rover is the absolute king of towing vehicles I've had experience of,  but some 4WD SUV's have laughable towing capabilities....

Johnny.....  I'm afraid you are arguing black is black, but stating it is white.

DG is correct.

REGARDLESS of whether you, I or indeed anyone else thinks its 'perfectly ok'...... it's not in the eyes of the law.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: STEMO on 27 March 2021, 22:11:00
I reckon the OP must have a right headache  ;D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 27 March 2021, 22:15:06
The VW Amorak, Mitsubishi Warrior, Ford Ranger and Nissan Hilux Invincible are all supposed to be up there with the best (commercial) towing vehicles currently.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Raeturbo on 27 March 2021, 22:15:17
Probably thinking.... Jesus Christ!!! Why the fu£ did I f@(king ask 😂😂🤣🤣
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Raeturbo on 27 March 2021, 22:19:37
Anyway what are we going to tow that container ship with😂 they will have to float it out I reckon...  dam it up in front as best as possible and get a shitload of water in there although it seems impossible  : anybody got any ideas?
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 27 March 2021, 22:35:44

If you're using heavier trailers and delivering anything heavier than an old Mini or Sprite, then the Omega is only suitable, and safe, to deliver the empty trailer.

Rubbish.
I can tow far heavier than an 'old Mini' or 'Sprite' My car trailer is a twin axle, with double 16' wheel beds (rather than the heavier flat bed) which are positioned between the axles rather than above them (as on a heavier flat bed) so the centre of gravity is low. It has an unladen weight of 740kg, and my 1970s Triumphs have an unladen weight of 23cwt (1170kg), so I am slightly above the stated permissible towing weight of 1850kg when towing those.
I accept that I am probably over on the towball nose weight, but the laden trailer sits well; only slightly lower at the nose than the tail, but this is preferable for stability purposes. The outfit is very stable when laden.
The 85% suggested towing weight by the CC is only a a guide and was suggested way back when vehicles towing cabilities were a lot less - 100% is quite acceptable with more modern vehicles.
The Omega is one of the best tow cars I've had; however the Range Rover is the absolute king of towing vehicles I've had experience of,  but some 4WD SUV's have laughable towing capabilities....

Johnny.....  I'm afraid you are arguing black is black, but stating it is white.

DG is correct.

REGARDLESS of whether you, I or indeed anyone else thinks its 'perfectly ok'...... it's not in the eyes of the law.

Yes I know I know.....but I guess even DG has done 33 mph in a 30 zone :y. ... I could have jiggled my quoted figures to make my argument a bit more watertight and be just within the the figures, but there we go. Irrespective of the figures, the Omega is still quite capable of towing way above its quoted weights. Although Officer Dibble may not see it quite like that, the outfit can't appear grossly mismatched otherwise I would have been stopped years ago.
I used to tow the same trailer in the early 00's with 2.0 16v Cavaliers - the tyre scrabble from the front tyres with a laden trailer actually was the main reason I moved to the heavier, more powerful rear wheel drive Omega in 2004 and I've never looked back....
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 27 March 2021, 22:36:32
Anyway what are we going to tow that container ship with😂 they will have to float it out I reckon...  dam it up in front as best as possible and get a shitload of water in there although it seems impossible  : anybody got any ideas?

Better not suggest an Omega then...... :D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Nick W on 27 March 2021, 22:45:17
Anyway what are we going to tow that container ship with😂 they will have to float it out I reckon...  dam it up in front as best as possible and get a shitload of water in there although it seems impossible  : anybody got any ideas?

Better not suggest an Omega then...... :D


why not, the leaks from a couple of them would probably be enough
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Raeturbo on 27 March 2021, 23:04:47
Not to mention the air con☹️
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2021, 23:36:26

If you're using heavier trailers and delivering anything heavier than an old Mini or Sprite, then the Omega is only suitable, and safe, to deliver the empty trailer.

Rubbish.
I can tow far heavier than an 'old Mini' or 'Sprite' My car trailer is a twin axle, with double 16' wheel beds (rather than the heavier flat bed) which are positioned between the axles rather than above them (as on a heavier flat bed) so the centre of gravity is low. It has an unladen weight of 740kg, and my 1970s Triumphs have an unladen weight of 23cwt (1170kg), so I am slightly above the stated permissible towing weight of 1850kg when towing those.
I accept that I am probably over on the towball nose weight, but the laden trailer sits well; only slightly lower at the nose than the tail, but this is preferable for stability purposes. The outfit is very stable when laden.
The 85% suggested towing weight by the CC is only a a guide and was suggested way back when vehicles towing cabilities were a lot less - 100% is quite acceptable with more modern vehicles.
The Omega is one of the best tow cars I've had; however the Range Rover is the absolute king of towing vehicles I've had experience of,  but some 4WD SUV's have laughable towing capabilities....

Johnny.....  I'm afraid you are arguing black is black, but stating it is white.

DG is correct.

REGARDLESS of whether you, I or indeed anyone else thinks its 'perfectly ok'...... it's not in the eyes of the law.

Yes I know I know.....but I guess even DG has done 33 mph in a 30 zone :y. ... I could have jiggled my quoted figures to make my argument a bit more watertight and be just within the the figures, but there we go. Irrespective of the figures, the Omega is still quite capable of towing way above its quoted weights. Although Officer Dibble may not see it quite like that, the outfit can't appear grossly mismatched otherwise I would have been stopped years ago.
I used to tow the same trailer in the early 00's with 2.0 16v Cavaliers - the tyre scrabble from the front tyres with a laden trailer actually was the main reason I moved to the heavier, more powerful rear wheel drive Omega in 2004 and I've never looked back....
Never being previously stopped will hold absolutely zero weight if you have an accident in the process. And doesn't provide any justification for continuing.

If the Omega was designed to tow more, then it would have been plated accordingly. And that's the end of it.

When fatigue eventually cracks the structure, I will say 'I told you so'.

33 in a 30 is an entirely different subject as that's a legal question alone and not a technical one (most every car on the road was designed to safely travel at highway speeds).
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 28 March 2021, 02:12:14
So I am towing an outfit that is sometimes over weight by the body weight of an average teenager. Or a few gallons of fuel in the tank.  I also think on the odd occasion I have towed heavier, but generally lighter. I think I will still sleep tonight.
If this is enough to fail the towing equipment on my Omega, then it would have occurred years ago, as would 'structural cracks'. If the figures quoted were so finely critical, with no leeway, the majority of people towing who very rarely check the nose weight of their outfit, ought to have also experienced fatigue and failure in their towing equipment and mounting points in their vehicles. Towing equipment is obviously designed to withstand heavier weights then the limits published - there has to be a figure, but if the equipment failed several kgs over that figure, then you would see stricken vehicles on the hard shoulder every holiday period.
I know you love preaching the rights and wrongs in the world but sometimes you have to look at it from an everyday persons point of view.... 
I actually could have been exaggerating the figures I quoted to keep this topic 'interesting' and provoke the reaction I got, or maybe they were more or less correct.
I do know that when the Police used our local weighbridge to weigh suspected overweight vehicles, there was a either a 5% or 10% margin of 'error' allowed (not sure which now).
Not that that justifies any misdemeanours, I know....
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 28 March 2021, 02:36:33

If you're using heavier trailers and delivering anything heavier than an old Mini or Sprite, then the Omega is only suitable, and safe, to deliver the empty trailer.

Rubbish.
I can tow far heavier than an 'old Mini' or 'Sprite' My car trailer is a twin axle, with double 16' wheel beds (rather than the heavier flat bed) which are positioned between the axles rather than above them (as on a heavier flat bed) so the centre of gravity is low. It has an unladen weight of 740kg, and my 1970s Triumphs have an unladen weight of 23cwt (1170kg), so I am slightly above the stated permissible towing weight of 1850kg when towing those.
I accept that I am probably over on the towball nose weight, but the laden trailer sits well; only slightly lower at the nose than the tail, but this is preferable for stability purposes. The outfit is very stable when laden.
The 85% suggested towing weight by the CC is only a a guide and was suggested way back when vehicles towing cabilities were a lot less - 100% is quite acceptable with more modern vehicles.
The Omega is one of the best tow cars I've had; however the Range Rover is the absolute king of towing vehicles I've had experience of,  but some 4WD SUV's have laughable towing capabilities....

Johnny.....  I'm afraid you are arguing black is black, but stating it is white.

DG is correct.

REGARDLESS of whether you, I or indeed anyone else thinks its 'perfectly ok'...... it's not in the eyes of the law.

Yes I know I know.....but I guess even DG has done 33 mph in a 30 zone :y. ... I could have jiggled my quoted figures to make my argument a bit more watertight and be just within the the figures, but there we go. Irrespective of the figures, the Omega is still quite capable of towing way above its quoted weights. Although Officer Dibble may not see it quite like that, the outfit can't appear grossly mismatched otherwise I would have been stopped years ago.
I used to tow the same trailer in the early 00's with 2.0 16v Cavaliers - the tyre scrabble from the front tyres with a laden trailer actually was the main reason I moved to the heavier, more powerful rear wheel drive Omega in 2004 and I've never looked back....
33 in a 30 is an entirely different subject as that's a legal question alone and not a technical one (most every car on the road was designed to safely travel at highway speeds).

This topic had moved into the legalities of towing / weights so no, it's not technical now... :P
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 March 2021, 02:46:55
Doesn't alter the fact that you are wrong... and deliberately ignorant of the consequences.

My licence allows me to tow anything (CE), but it doesn't permit exceeding the weight limits shown on the vehicle or trailer, and for good reason. Perhaps yours is a special licence that exempts you from physics ;D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 28 March 2021, 07:30:33
I reckon the OP must have a right headache  ;D


Some folk seem to make hard work of simple calculations & facts & figures that are readily available even if you can't be arsed to read the vehicle handbook properly.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: YZ250 on 28 March 2021, 10:09:25
What is technically the difference of 2.5/2.6 or 3.2/2.6 as both 2.5 and 3.2 have higher allowable mass of a mobile home with brakes (left column), brakes might be same and 2.6 has more power than 2.5. Difficult to understand. Would like to increase in my 2.6 it to 1850kg.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsRD5dB2/Mass.jpg)

Assuming that the OP was hoping to tow a larger caravan I would personally stick with the kerb weight figures as mentioned previously.
The maximum towing weights shown above for trailers are derived from the vehicles ability to pull away from a dead start on an incline, of a gradient of which I can't remember offhand.  ::)
As GrahamK stated, different models have different maximum towing weights, even though the vehicle may weigh potentially the same.
So, a 3.2 Omega gets a higher maximum towing weight than the smaller V6's purely because it is more capable of hauling arse from a standstill on a gradient. Outfit stability obviously comes in to it so they set that figure according. I'm surprised that the 3.0/3.2 aren't paired but then the 3.2 is far superior.  ;)
So, in reality, the 2.5/2.6 may be as stable on the flat as a 3.2 but the 3.2 gets the higher maximum towing figure based on its gradient start from standstill when towing.  :y  Hope that helps to explain the difference in figures.  :y

Incidentally, I was following a Landcruiser Amazon a few years back when all of a sudden his twin axle decided to give it a savage arse kicking (tail wagging the dog). He was lucky, as was I when it happened to me, so it pays not to become too complacent. It's an experience that I have no desire to repeat, caused by a mixture of being passed at speed by a high sided van, my own speed creeping up and towing 100% ratio. Having towed bangers/hotrods on Brian James/Ivor Williams trailers in my younger days, large four wheel drives aren't exempt from snaking, but they are certainly in a better position to hold it all straight in the first place.  :y

If anyone has seen the YouTube video where a twin axle caravan drags a Renault back down a hill you will realise why weights are so important.  ;D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Nick W on 28 March 2021, 10:36:13
Incidentally, I was following a Landcruiser Amazon a few years back when all of a sudden his twin axle decided to give it a savage arse kicking (tail wagging the dog). He was lucky, as was I when it happened to me, so it pays not to become too complacent. It's an experience that I have no desire to repeat, caused by a mixture of being passed at speed by a high sided van, my own speed creeping up and towing 100% ratio. Having towed bangers/hotrods on Brian James/Ivor Williams trailers in my younger days, large four wheel drives aren't exempt from snaking, but they are certainly in a better position to hold it all straight in the first place.  :y



I've recovered a Discovery, four-wheel trailer, and Discovery on their side because of that. Both car and trailer were well maintained, and the driver was experienced with the legal combination. But once you get 3 tonnes wagging on a towbar, you are just along for the ride.


Knowingly towing a combination that is over the legal limit is not an intelligent thing to, no matter how safe it appears to be.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 28 March 2021, 11:12:48
Doesn't alter the fact that you are wrong... and deliberately ignorant of the consequences.

My licence allows me to tow anything (CE), but it doesn't permit exceeding the weight limits shown on the vehicle or trailer, and for good reason. Perhaps yours is a special licence that exempts you from physics ;D

The mention of a Triumph 2000 was one example of a vehicle that I have towed previously with my Omega in response to DG's incorrect statement that the Omega is only able to tow an old Mini , or the trailer itself safely, which as I said was rubbish, relative to its published towing figures. Maybe I should have chosen a vehicle that was just within the weight limits for reference The last time I towed a Triumph on the trailer was around 5 years ago, and as I said previously, I have on the odd occasion towed heavier, but in the main lighter.
I too have seen trailers snaking, especially on downhill gradients when the weight of the loaded trailer is pushing the towing vehicle - not a enviable situation to be in, especially if it occurs whilst they are overtaking you. Caravans on their sides for a variety of reasons. Jackknived lorries even.... I'm sure many have also seen an outfit that immediately made you question the legality of it from how it was performing on the road, and the load being carried.
Many incidents involving trailers are down to the inexperience of the driver, including the inability to react correctly to any potential situation, incorrect loading, towing speeds, and the unsuitability of the towing vehicle, most of which only come with experience.
I agree with most of the observations made, but the Omega is still a superb tow car and I will continue to use it along with my Hyundai Santa Fe for any towing.

If anyone wants to question the rights and wrongs of towing, then one area would be the legalities of the major breakdown / roadside recovery companies that use dollies to recover vehicles......
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Nick W on 28 March 2021, 11:38:07

If anyone wants to question the rights and wrongs of towing, then one area would be the legalities of the major breakdown / roadside recovery companies that use dollies to recover vehicles......



They spend a considerable amount of time and money developing those tools. Some of that was spent on lawyers. The RDT(Rapid Deployment Trailers) in the back of an RAC van is a very expensive and well built bit of kit. Some of the design is to reduce the wear and tear on the patrolman, which is why the whole thing is powered.


When lifting just one axle, the car is considered to be a trailer and car, both practically and legally. That is also true if you flat tow a car, which has its own issues. Some of the recovery industry's legal exemptions require any vehicle being recovered to be fully legal; a car without tax, MOT and insurance is a transport job with different rules.


If you think RDTs are bad, don't ever look at towing with a rigid pole. Especially the non-commercial ones. Not to mention using the screw-in 'towing' eyes beloved by car manufacturers.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 28 March 2021, 12:05:27
I have a braked dolly which I use very occasionally, as it is really only suited to front wheel drive vehicles. Rear wheel drive vehicles can be towed depending the distance and transmission, but given the choice, a rear wheel drive vehicle is better in my opinion to be a complete lift.
When I researched dollies before purchase, the information from the few manufacturers of them was that once the dolly is laden with a vehicle, which is secured to the dolly, it becomes a 4 wheel trailer in its own right, and due to its weight being over 750 kg requires brakes on all 'towed' wheels. The trailing wheels of the disabled vehicle cannot be operated whilst being towed, thus rendering the 'trailer' illegal? I believe that some European countries forbid the use of dollies for this very reason, but it has been considered a ''grey' area in the UK. How do the AA and RAC legally use them or get round the fact that the 'trailer' doesn't have operational trailing brakes?
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: YZ250 on 28 March 2021, 12:32:46
......
I agree with most of the observations made, but the Omega is still a superb tow car......

It most certainly is, my 3.2 Estate served me exceptionally proud.  :y  I can still picture the faces of other drivers going up Telegraph Hill (a long rather than a steep climb near Newton Abbot Devon) as I swung out for the overtake with twenty six feet of caravan on the back.  :y  Pulled like a train that thing did, and because they are shite on fuel to start with, you barely notice a couple of mpg lost by towing.  ;D
We used to tow the car trailers with a Land Rover with a Nissan truck engine in it back then. Out-dragging a solo Shogun off the lights with a car trailer, hotrod, tyre rack and tools on the back was a sight to behold back then.  ;D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 March 2021, 14:19:28
Johnny you can pick as many holes in my statements as you like. They were examples of the sort of weights that might be carried on trailers of a certain weight.

In your three replies about what you tow, you changed the criteria every time but referred to two and three axle car trailers. For any combination, the heavier the trailer, the less weight (load) it can carry. That's simple maths.

The Omega (and any other vehicle) can only tow upto the maximum train weight on the chassis plate.

If you tow a trailer/load greater than that number then you are stupid. And doing so with an Omega when you have access to a better suited (for the combination weight you require) tow vehicle, then you are criminally moronic.

Fudging the numbers and trying to attack my, correct, statement doesn't allow you to tow anything heavier than the plate allows, and every kilo extra in the Omega is a kilo less allowed on the trailer. It's that simple.

It doesn't matter how 'good' a tow car the Omega is, there are similar vehicles designed to tow heavier weights.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: johnnydog on 28 March 2021, 15:34:01
I am not going to get into a keyboard argument with you, because you think you are always correct, despite actually being wrong or misinformed on occasions. I know you stated vehicles heavier than, but as an example - an old classic Mini (and I have had countless models of them in my youth) come in just less that 600 kgs and some of the models I had go to around 650kgs depending on the suspension. So at the school I went to, the maths is 740kg + 650kgs = 1390 kgs. Now take 1390 from 1875kgs (your figure) and what do we get (children ::)) - 485kgs. So there is plenty of wiggle room for a full tank of fuel, some tools and some lunch........nearly half a metric tonne..
So there are a lot of bigger vehicles that fall into the permissible weight category  for the Omega - a new Audi A1 for example. The statement that it is only suitable to tow the empty trailer is ridiculous.

So whatever way you want to justify your statement regarding the Omegas towing abilities /vehicles / trailers, just accept once (God forbid) you aren't always right and speak tripe sometimes. And don't go quiet and move onto another topic, effectively burying your head in the sand - accept that sometimes your statements are not always correct.
I have accepted the criticism that I have on occasions exceeds the maw with my TWIN axle trailer (didn't think I have stated I own a 3 axle trailer trailer.....) and I am aware of the implications, and accept everything said where I have been a law breaker, so depending on the gross weight will just revert to the Hyundai for the heavier stuff. After all, the Omega needs looking after it gets older - like us!
Doesn't alter my opinion the Omega IS a brilliant tow car (even for weights over its design weight - sorry just had to drop that one in :y)
Are we still friends then?
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 March 2021, 15:45:02
I wouldn't go that far, but I will concede that I wasn't aware that an early Mini was that light :o

Any load much over a ton is going to pushing the limit of the Omega unless you run a lighter trailer, but even then 1,350kgs isn't that much for newer cars.

Better for the car, and potentially you, to simply use a higher capacity vehicle to begin with.  :y
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: countrywoman on 28 March 2021, 16:22:36
I once towed a broken down short wheel base landy (back in the 70s) with a LWB landy breakdown using an A frame , anything over 10 mph and the towed landy started walking /snaking . Good job it was less than a mile back to workshop!!
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: YZ250 on 28 March 2021, 16:48:50
What is technically the difference of 2.5/2.6 or 3.2/2.6 as both 2.5 and 3.2 have higher allowable mass of a mobile home with brakes (left column), brakes might be same and 2.6 has more power than 2.5. Difficult to understand. Would like to increase in my 2.6 it to 1850kg.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsRD5dB2/Mass.jpg)
The maximum towing weights shown above for trailers are derived from the vehicles ability to pull away from a dead start on an incline, of a gradient of which I can't remember offhand.  ::)
.........

Edit:
Gradient of 12%, or about a 1 in 8 hill.  :y
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 28 March 2021, 18:09:30
I once towed a broken down short wheel base landy (back in the 70s) with a LWB landy breakdown using an A frame , anything over 10 mph and the towed landy started walking /snaking . Good job it was less than a mile back to workshop!!

The first time I ever towed with an A frame, I was towing an Omega with my Omega, 60 miles from Wembley to my house. My Omega had a broken rear spring at the time.
It was an interesting drive to say the least.  :D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: polilara on 28 March 2021, 19:13:17
Very interesting discussion, I am reading all of them, now in page 4. Came home today from my caravan which is 950 kg. Idea was not to do anything illegal but get higher weight Type Approved by authoritative, now I understand more. From the plate I found 2190 and 3940kg which means this 1750. Page link is below.


http://www.ajovalo.net/Vaunupainot2.htm
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Andy B on 28 March 2021, 19:19:55
....
The first time I ever towed with an A frame, I was towing an Omega with my Omega, 60 miles from Wembley to my house. My Omega had a broken rear spring at the time.
It was an interesting drive to say the least.  :D

I'm surprised your drive was 'interesting'  ???
Years ago I towed another Omega with my Omega almost the length of the country with no problem at all ... just had to be aware that the towed car was trying to push me faster when on a down hill section of motorway, so just knocked it down a gear.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 March 2021, 19:32:25
Very interesting discussion, I am reading all of them, now in page 4. Came home today from my caravan which is 950 kg. Idea was not to do anything illegal but get higher weight Type Approved by authoritative, now I understand more. From the plate I found 2190 and 3940kg which means this 1750. Page link is below.


http://www.ajovalo.net/Vaunupainot2.htm
In short, to tow more than 1,750kgs you need a car that is plated to tow more.  :y
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: YZ250 on 28 March 2021, 19:49:28
Very interesting discussion, I am reading all of them, now in page 4. Came home today from my caravan which is 950 kg. Idea was not to do anything illegal but get higher weight Type Approved by authoritative, now I understand more. From the plate I found 2190 and 3940kg which means this 1750. Page link is below.


http://www.ajovalo.net/Vaunupainot2.htm

2190 = Gross Vehicle Weight, the limit the vehicle can be loaded to.
3940 = Gross Train Weight, the limit the vehicle and trailer combined (with load) can weigh.
1750 = Maximum Towing Weight, the most weight the vehicle can tow legally.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Nick W on 29 March 2021, 00:32:14
One thing nobody has paid much attention to so far is the Gross Vehicle Weight, and its consequences: a GVW of 2290kg when the car weighs 1600. 5 large people and typical holiday luggage is going to use most of that.
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 29 March 2021, 11:26:45
Drive your Omega to a hotel and stay there.
Ok, seven pages about this is enough. Talk about something else instead.  ;D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 29 March 2021, 12:16:02
I've heard that the Suez blockage has been removed, how's that did they use an Omega to pull it free ? 😁
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: YZ250 on 29 March 2021, 12:24:48
I've heard that the Suez blockage has been removed, how's that did they use an Omega to pull it free ? 😁

They said they knew that an Omega would have pulled it free, but it was pointed out that it was very slightly in excess of the maximum permitted towing weight so it was an operation that couldn't be legally performed. Rules is rules you know.  :y
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Rangie on 29 March 2021, 12:26:58
Couldn't they have used 2 Omegas ?
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: STEMO on 29 March 2021, 13:07:27
A little Egyptian man with a crow bar dived down and prised it free. When interviewed he said "What's all the fuss about, wąnkers?"  ;D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 29 March 2021, 13:45:34
Drive your Omega to a hotel and stay there.
Ok, seven pages about this is enough. Talk about something else instead.  ;D
Winter tyres or oil additives?  :D
Title: Re: Caravan Mass
Post by: Andy B on 29 March 2021, 13:46:53
Drive your Omega to a hotel and stay there.
Ok, seven pages about this is enough. Talk about something else instead.  ;D
Winter tyres or oil additives?  :D
;D ;D ;D