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[Titanium]

Good evening everyone,

I hope you are all well.

My Mums Omega 3.2 Elite V6 (2002) has spring a coolant leak. After a lot of research on this very forum I am almost 95% sure its the Heater Bypass Valve (HBV). The symptoms are:

• Puddle on the floor with the engine running and the AC system ON.
• Water running from the left-hand side (drivers-side) at the rear of the engine, between the off-side exhaust and the bell-housing. Looks like its running around the bell housing and dripping off.
• If you use a torch and peer at the back of the engine you can see the leak coming from the area of the Heater Bypass Valve (high up), but I can't actually see it running from the valve itself as there is too much engine in the way and I can't look round a corner!
• If you put the climate control (AC) into 'Off' mode before you switch off the engine, then start the car the next day with the climate control still 'Off' there is no leak. Switch the climate control 'On' and the leak instantly starts.
• Leak stops when you turn off the ignition.

I will be getting a local garage to do the work and I have read its best to remove the scuttle and 'struggle' than remove the plenum. I'd rather the plenum wasn't removed as its never been off the car and I think its best left alone as I expect there's a lot that can go wrong if its not re-fitted correctly.

Whats your view? How likely is it the HBV? and should I ask the garage to go the scuttle removal or plenum removal route?

Thank you very much for your help.

Gary

[johnnydog]

It certainly looks like the HBV being at fault- it's not uncommon at all.  Especially as you can visibly see a water leak from that area.
Last time I did mine, it was scuttle off and I also removed the wiper linkage complete with the motor for better access (as the wiper arms are off anyway).
It's not difficult to remove the plenum either - you say it's never been off, but I think that is unlikely if it's had the cambelt /tensioner done as required. It's not a problem reseating it correctly - 4 bolts locate it accurately.
As regards the garage doing it - if so, and going down the scuttle route, I've seen the twist retaining clips broken along with the holes on the scuttle damaged when there's been a previous attempt to remove it without removing any or all of the clips under the lower windscreen moulding. I actually find it easier to access the clips by just removing the lower moulding, and the condition of the lower windscreen aperture can also be checked properly for corrosion whilst it's out of the way. A quick clean up of the moulding before reassembly and the slightest smear of rubber grease on the tongue and it just pushes back into place. Saves struggling twisting the moulding up and possibly damaging it to get the screwdriver in and getting the clips out with the moulding in place.
Worth in my opinion suggesting that to them, especially if they are unfamiliar with Omegas.

[dave the builder]

I replaced my HBV last week by removing the scuttle and wiper motor  ,plenty of room

if the HBV is original ,never been changed ,then it will have GM spring hose clamps .

care should be taken when doing the job though ,there's several breather & vac pipes etc

If your plenum has never been off  are the breathers clear etc 

they're all 20+ years old now (omegas)

 

[Doctor Gollum]

The HBV will almost certainly have been replaced... it's practically a service item.

HBV isn't the only leak source that presents at the back of the block. It could also be the oil cooler or thermostat housing as both drain to the rear.

Does the rate of the leak change with the temperature settings on the climate panel... ie worse on Lo and better on Hi or vice versa  if yes, then it's almost certainly the HBV. If no, then plenum and intake off and pressure test it... any leak will be self evident.

Unless you can guarantee the original screen and/or genuine trim/frame then removing the scuttle will lead to issues. This is partly down to collected dirt in the frame if poorly fitted of pattern frames are used together with the age of the seal trim*.

The frame and trim, including the lower strip, are fitted to the screen BEFORE it is fitted to the car and the screen assembly is then fitted AFTER the scuttle. It isn't designed to have the lower trim removed and refitted.

The only three jobs on the Omega that require removal of the scuttle are 1. Wiper motor replacement. 2 Brake servo replacement. 3. To allow proper preparation during screen replacement and then it's refitted before the screen to ensure correct screen placement.

Removing the plenum is

*Actually a misnomer as it seals nothing.

[johnnydog]

The HBV will almost certainly have been replaced... it's practically a service item.

HBV isn't the only leak source that presents at the back of the block. It could also be the oil cooler or thermostat housing as both drain to the rear.

Does the rate of the leak change with the temperature settings on the climate panel... ie worse on Lo and better on Hi or vice versa  if yes, then it's almost certainly the HBV. If no, then plenum and intake off and pressure test it... any leak will be self evident.

Unless you can guarantee the original screen and/or genuine trim/frame then removing the scuttle will lead to issues. This is partly down to collected dirt in the frame if poorly fitted of pattern frames are used together with the age of the seal trim*.

The frame and trim, including the lower strip, are fitted to the screen BEFORE it is fitted to the car and the screen assembly is then fitted AFTER the scuttle. It isn't designed to have the lower trim removed and refitted.

The only three jobs on the Omega that require removal of the scuttle are 1. Wiper motor replacement. 2 Brake servo replacement. 3. To allow proper preparation during screen replacement and then it's refitted before the screen to ensure correct screen placement.

Removing the plenum is

*Actually a misnomer as it seals nothing.

We've been here before , and I think we must agree to disagree. The screens are the originals on my current Omegas, and on my Perol Blue Elite, due to particular jobs that have needed doing, I have removed the lower moulding to remove the scuttle a good few times with no detrement. Unless the person removing it is ham-fisted, then it it can be removed and replaced with care with no issues.
I don't where you have got the notion that it isn't designed to be removed in that manner, or is it that you have damaged your retainer in the past removing the lower moulding? I certainly haven't, and I don't agree with your comments. There's more than one way to skin a cat...But others are free to tackle it any way they see most appropriate.

[Doctor Gollum]

You've clearly never owned an ex traffic car

[dave the builder]

You've clearly never owned an ex traffic car

I don't see why anyone would want to own an "ex police car" 

they are "Rode Hard and Put Up Wet", thrashed to within an inch of their life ,hacked up wiring ,metal fatigue from doing "sleeping policemen" at 60 MPH etc .

abused more than a hire car that Jamie (TB) dislikes 

My HBV was the original factory item ,2003 ,so 20 years old ,had only just started dripping last week, replaced PDQ ,once the engine was cooled and the SKUTTLE and WIPER MOTOR was REMOVED 

I'm not saying that doing the job by removing the plenum is a bad idea , but that route isn't issue free either, if done badly ,plenum seals .O-rings etc are not easy to get these days ,it's pretty important all the breathers are put back correctly etc ,not a job I'd want a "quick fit fitter" or unfamiliar grease monkey doing 

the original poster doesn't want to do the job ,so farming it out to a local garage ,which have probably never seen an Omega on their ramps .

the HBV is a pretty simple  DIY home mechanic job ,which, if done slowly and with care ,should go without problems or other parts needed 

Other than 3 new ,good quality jubilee clips to replace the ****ing GM spring hose clamps 

[johnnydog]

You've clearly never owned an ex traffic car

So what's that got to do with the 'price of fish'?
Are you suggesting that repairs to Police Vehicles were done to a very poor standard by ham fisted bafoons who couldn't think for themselves and decide the best and most practical way to approach a repair job, causing unnecessary damage along the way? Sounds like that's your suggestion.....
And again (clearly) you are wrong, as I have owned an ex Police (NCA) Omega, and also another make a good few years ago that was ex Police....

You can't 'force' your methods of doing repairs based on your issues experienced owning an ex traffic car as the ONLY way to approach a repair - most Omegas owned by OOFers were in the private sector, so actual Police Vehicle ownership is quite irrelevant really in this instance....

[Doctor Gollum]

First things first, your attack requires me to justify my experience. I have owned several Omegas for approximately 250,000 miles of personal time with them combined, and almost all of the work on them in my ownership was done by me. These cars included 3 ex plod 3.2s, 2x 2.6s, 2x 2.2s, a 2.0 16v and a 3.2 Elite. Two of the ex plod cars had interiors replaced, OU54AEW had three different interiors fitted over time and extensive wiring and two significant panel replacements, not to mention the ongoing servicing/preventative maintenance required to pass an MoT/Council inspection every six months with no advisories over the course of 170k or so on that car alone. Not to mention two windscreens, one of which require three call backs to actually fit correctly. So whilst you might not agree with my approach sometimes, you can at least do me the courtesy of actually having some hands on experience with the Omega.

Right, back to the scuttle...Three out of three plod cars had incorrectly fitted screens and trims. And Two of these I was the first owner out of service, and both were under five years old. The issue is that the trims actually set the height of the screen in the aperture, fit the trims afterwards and the screen will invariably end up in the wrong position in any/all three planes.

The scuttle trim clips require the bottom trim to either be forced out of position or removed. The frame the trim sits in doesn't take kindly from being twisted away if the trim has been glued in (a bodge if the frames are reused, fitted in the wrong order or aftermarket ones fitted) or simply stuck from the culmination of dirt and time, as the force applied distorts the wafer thin steel clips where the lower frame connects to the side frames meaning that it will potentially never sit right again or repeatedly slide away from the base of the screen allowing water and dirt in under the scuttle. At a glance it may still appear correct.

The trim can also be stretched/distorted if removed forcibly. You may well be perfect and never damage so much as a piece of double sided tape when you work on your cars, but for all its apparent simplicity, removing and replacing the scuttle is easy to get wrong especially with the passage of time.

For the purposes of an as yet undiagnosed coolant leak removing the plenum instead of the scuttle affords much better access to the common leak points plus the opportunity to clean the breathers through and inspect the coolant system components under the inlet bridge. Especially as, if the HBV proves not to be the source, then the plenum is coming off regardless.

[Doctor Gollum]

You've clearly never owned an ex traffic car

I don't see why anyone would want to own an "ex police car" 

they are "Rode Hard and Put Up Wet", thrashed to within an inch of their life ,hacked up wiring ,metal fatigue from doing "sleeping policemen" at 60 MPH etc .

abused more than a hire car that Jamie (TB) dislikes 

My HBV was the original factory item ,2003 ,so 20 years old ,had only just started dripping last week, replaced PDQ ,once the engine was cooled and the SKUTTLE and WIPER MOTOR was REMOVED 

I'm not saying that doing the job by removing the plenum is a bad idea , but that route isn't issue free either, if done badly ,plenum seals .O-rings etc are not easy to get these days ,it's pretty important all the breathers are put back correctly etc ,not a job I'd want a "quick fit fitter" or unfamiliar grease monkey doing 

the original poster doesn't want to do the job ,so farming it out to a local garage ,which have probably never seen an Omega on their ramps .

the HBV is a pretty simple  DIY home mechanic job ,which, if done slowly and with care ,should go without problems or other parts needed 

Other than 3 new ,good quality jubilee clips to replace the ****ing GM spring hose clamps 

Price and opportunity mostly.
£5k for a 3.5 year-old manual 3.2... Second one was £1,800 and 4.5 years old bought because of its late registration, full maintenance records and colour along with being a blank canvas and served me well. Third was bought as a project.

[dave the builder]

You've clearly never owned an ex traffic car

I don't see why anyone would want to own an "ex police car" 

they are "Rode Hard and Put Up Wet", thrashed to within an inch of their life ,hacked up wiring ,metal fatigue from doing "sleeping policemen" at 60 MPH etc .

Price and opportunity mostly.

"things are cheap for a reason "
AND
"buy cheap ,buy twice thrice " 

I blew a massive 400  on mine
been spending ever since ,that's the nature of "car ownership" 

[Doctor Gollum]

You've clearly never owned an ex traffic car

I don't see why anyone would want to own an "ex police car" 

they are "Rode Hard and Put Up Wet", thrashed to within an inch of their life ,hacked up wiring ,metal fatigue from doing "sleeping policemen" at 60 MPH etc .

Price and opportunity mostly.

"things are cheap for a reason "
AND
"buy cheap ,buy twice thrice " 

I blew a massive 400  on mine
been spending ever since ,that's the nature of "car ownership" 

Too true

That said, white retail Omegas were few and far between, especially if it has to be under a certain age and have service history. Could have spent the same again having a lower mileage more expensive car repainted, but didn't.

[johnnydog]

First things first, your attack requires me to justify my experience. I have owned several Omegas for approximately 250,000 miles of personal time with them combined, and almost all of the work on them in my ownership was done by me. These cars included 3 ex plod 3.2s, 2x 2.6s, 2x 2.2s, a 2.0 16v and a 3.2 Elite. Two of the ex plod cars had interiors replaced, OU54AEW had three different interiors fitted over time and extensive wiring and two significant panel replacements, not to mention the ongoing servicing/preventative maintenance required to pass an MoT/Council inspection every six months with no advisories over the course of 170k or so on that car alone. Not to mention two windscreens, one of which require three call backs to actually fit correctly. So whilst you might not agree with my approach sometimes, you can at least do me the courtesy of actually having some hands on experience with the Omega.

Right, back to the scuttle...Three out of three plod cars had incorrectly fitted screens and trims. And Two of these I was the first owner out of service, and both were under five years old. The issue is that the trims actually set the height of the screen in the aperture, fit the trims afterwards and the screen will invariably end up in the wrong position in any/all three planes.

The scuttle trim clips require the bottom trim to either be forced out of position or removed. The frame the trim sits in doesn't take kindly from being twisted away if the trim has been glued in (a bodge if the frames are reused, fitted in the wrong order or aftermarket ones fitted) or simply stuck from the culmination of dirt and time, as the force applied distorts the wafer thin steel clips where the lower frame connects to the side frames meaning that it will potentially never sit right again or repeatedly slide away from the base of the screen allowing water and dirt in under the scuttle. At a glance it may still appear correct.

The trim can also be stretched/distorted if removed forcibly. You may well be perfect and never damage so much as a piece of double sided tape when you work on your cars, but for all its apparent simplicity, removing and replacing the scuttle is easy to get wrong especially with the passage of time.

For the purposes of an as yet undiagnosed coolant leak removing the plenum instead of the scuttle affords much better access to the common leak points plus the opportunity to clean the breathers through and inspect the coolant system components under the inlet bridge. Especially as, if the HBV proves not to be the source, then the plenum is coming off regardless.

Yes, you may have had numerous Omegas including Police spec models and worked on them gaining experience of their weak points and issues / rectification work from mechanics - including so called Police mechanics - working on them. Doesn't mean your opinion on these matters is right or the correct approach....it's just your opinion.
But you are not the only person to have had several Omegas and done galactic miles in them. Since 2004, I have owned 11 Omegas (ran out of fingers /thumbs to count - maybe the odd one or two more!), still own 3 Elites, do the majority of my own work on them etc etc
But just because you have owned several Omegas, and worked on them, does that mean that your way of doing aspects of repairs, or because repairs had issues through incompetent mechanics / fitters whatever, your observations/ methods are gospel, or the method that everyone MUST adhere to? You portray yourself as the oracle of the Omega, and owners must attempt repairs your way or woe betide.....
I've never known anything like it on any forum - the way you portray yourself suggesting nothing but your approach or way is acceptable, the abrupt responses you often give, and the dross you occasionally come out with, is quite frankly unbelievable. If it wasn't for my love of Omegas, I would have given up on this forum purely because of your attitude - it stinks.
Now, why don't you try to go back to giving helpful suggestions to Omega issues rather than forcing your often self opinionated  and not always correct thoughts on other OOFers....

[Andy B]

Johnny does have a point ..... Allan has been the/part of the reason why various people have left the forum over the years 🙄

The last HBV I changed was on a campsite with basic tools .... i just removed the scuttle (&maybe the wipers ..... it was a while back now)

[Doctor Gollum]

Having a different opinion based on different experiences should not make something wrong. Personally I wouldn't remove the scuttle unless absolutely necessary. Others are entitled to disagree. It would be interesting to see what TIS says on the subject of replacing the HBV, then perhaps that could be set as the definitive method rather than squabbling over opinion.

It's akin to arguing over how to make a cup of tea. More than one way to skin a cat, so do what works for you and alternatives provide options.

Incidentally, I would be very surprised if police mechanics actually fitted windscreens.