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[Lizzie Zoom]

A pipe came loose from the back of the plenum and the Engine Management Light came on.  Fixed the pipe, but the light is remaining on.

What do you think is wrong?  Will the light go out eventually?

How to fix please?

[Nick W]

Needs a code reader to check the code, and reset if it related to the loose hose. Your 3.2 is OBD compliant, so any basic tool ought to work.

[Doctor Gollum]

Which pipe or hose? I ask as that may have a bearing on why the light came on.

Notwithstanding how it came off to begin with

[Lizzie Zoom]

Needs a code reader to check the code, and reset if it related to the loose hose. Your 3.2 is OBD compliant, so any basic tool ought to work.

Thanks Nick

[Lizzie Zoom]

Which pipe or hose? I ask as that may have a bearing on why the light came on.

Notwithstanding how it came off to begin with

Yes, sorry I didn't make that clear, it is one of the four breather hoses into the rear of the plenum.  It is one of the two smallest pipes inside the other larger ones.

[Doctor Gollum]

Either the purge valve to intake vent hose or smaller crankcase breather hose.

No reason for that to just fall off unless the hose has degraded or it wasn't refitted correctly.

All four left the factory with crimp clamps fitted.

And the pedal trick will tell you what the code is.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Very rare to see one with any of the clamps still fitted though, as the hoses are a pretty tight fit anyway.

[Doctor Gollum]

Very rare to see one with any of the clamps still fitted though, as the hoses are a pretty tight fit anyway.

Hence asking how it came to be detached 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Either the purge valve to intake vent hose or smaller crankcase breather hose.

No reason for that to just fall off unless the hose has degraded or it wasn't refitted correctly.

All four left the factory with crimp clamps fitted.

And the pedal trick will tell you what the code is.

This hose became further split at the end when last fitted by me, and there was no clamp.  Serek had to take these off when doing the cam belt last week, and, no fault on his part, the hose split a little further when refitting, but lasted until today when it started to leak.  Have refitted with a jubilee clip, but the Light remains on.

When I do the major service later this year, I will replace this hose.

[LC0112G]

I'd be surprised if any of the pipes on the back of that breather can cause the EML light to come on. ECU only knows what the various sensors tell it, and AFAIK nothing measures anything in the breathers.

More likely to be an electrical connection off one of the various sensors, actuators or valves that are part of the plenium. The ECU does know if they're unplugged - it basically measures their resistance, and if that resistance is out of limits then EML on. As others say - get the codes read, or do the pedal trick.

[sjc]

Pedal test trick to get the code?

[Lizzie Zoom]

I'd be surprised if any of the pipes on the back of that breather can cause the EML light to come on. ECU only knows what the various sensors tell it, and AFAIK nothing measures anything in the breathers.

More likely to be an electrical connection off one of the various sensors, actuators or valves that are part of the plenium. The ECU does know if they're unplugged - it basically measures their resistance, and if that resistance is out of limits then EML on. As others say - get the codes read, or do the pedal trick.

Thanks

[Doctor Gollum]

I'd be surprised if any of the pipes on the back of that breather can cause the EML light to come on. ECU only knows what the various sensors tell it, and AFAIK nothing measures anything in the breathers.

More likely to be an electrical connection off one of the various sensors, actuators or valves that are part of the plenium. The ECU does know if they're unplugged - it basically measures their resistance, and if that resistance is out of limits then EML on. As others say - get the codes read, or do the pedal trick.

It's unmetered air into the intake which potentially causes discrepancies elsewhere, hence the light.

[Doctor Gollum]

Either the purge valve to intake vent hose or smaller crankcase breather hose.

No reason for that to just fall off unless the hose has degraded or it wasn't refitted correctly.

All four left the factory with crimp clamps fitted.

And the pedal trick will tell you what the code is.

This hose became further split at the end when last fitted by me, and there was no clamp.  Serek had to take these off when doing the cam belt last week, and, no fault on his part, the hose split a little further when refitting, but lasted until today when it started to leak.  Have refitted with a jubilee clip, but the Light remains on.

When I do the major service later this year, I will replace this hose.

I smell roses.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Either the purge valve to intake vent hose or smaller crankcase breather hose.

No reason for that to just fall off unless the hose has degraded or it wasn't refitted correctly.

All four left the factory with crimp clamps fitted.

And the pedal trick will tell you what the code is.

This hose became further split at the end when last fitted by me, and there was no clamp.  Serek had to take these off when doing the cam belt last week, and, no fault on his part, the hose split a little further when refitting, but lasted until today when it started to leak.  Have refitted with a jubilee clip, but the Light remains on.

When I do the major service later this year, I will replace this hose.

I smell roses.

How do you know I absolutely love roses?

[LC0112G]

I'd be surprised if any of the pipes on the back of that breather can cause the EML light to come on. ECU only knows what the various sensors tell it, and AFAIK nothing measures anything in the breathers.

More likely to be an electrical connection off one of the various sensors, actuators or valves that are part of the plenium. The ECU does know if they're unplugged - it basically measures their resistance, and if that resistance is out of limits then EML on. As others say - get the codes read, or do the pedal trick.

It's unmetered air into the intake which potentially causes discrepancies elsewhere, hence the light.

No. The big pipes come from the crankcase, which is basically at atmospheric. I've run mine with them disconnected - no issues - although that is/was a 3.0 not a 3.2. The holes in the breather are tiny (assuming they're not actually blocked). The ECU only measures MAF, not MAP, so there is no way for it to know there is a leak except from lambda readings. Lambda sensors won't throw a fault till the engine is warm. So if the EML is on straight from engine start then it won't be from an 'unmetered air leak' IMHO.

When I replaced my engine ISTR there were 3 'faults'. I'd not plugged the EGR or the fuel tank breather solenoid in properly, and it threw the TC's from start-up. My money is on something similar since the Plenium must have been off to do the cam belt. But all should be revealed if we can get Lizze to read the codes 

[Doctor Gollum]

The two smaller pipes feed directly into the plenum, post throttle, where the 'top hat' seal is. It's job is to seal both lines from each other and atmosphere where the breather bridge fits into the plenum.

Of the two, the smaller one is from the small spigot on the crank breather, tother is the vent line from the purge valve and is connected to the fuel tank via the charcoal canister behind the right front wheel arch. Atmospheric or not, both centre pipes will allow unmetered air into the plenum and therefore the cylinders.

On the 3.2 MAF and MAP are the same sensor. And unmetered air will.upset the fuel mixture enough to put the light on.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I'd be surprised if any of the pipes on the back of that breather can cause the EML light to come on. ECU only knows what the various sensors tell it, and AFAIK nothing measures anything in the breathers.

More likely to be an electrical connection off one of the various sensors, actuators or valves that are part of the plenium. The ECU does know if they're unplugged - it basically measures their resistance, and if that resistance is out of limits then EML on. As others say - get the codes read, or do the pedal trick.

It's unmetered air into the intake which potentially causes discrepancies elsewhere, hence the light.

No. The big pipes come from the crankcase, which is basically at atmospheric. I've run mine with them disconnected - no issues - although that is/was a 3.0 not a 3.2. The holes in the breather are tiny (assuming they're not actually blocked). The ECU only measures MAF, not MAP, so there is no way for it to know there is a leak except from lambda readings. Lambda sensors won't throw a fault till the engine is warm. So if the EML is on straight from engine start then it won't be from an 'unmetered air leak' IMHO.

When I replaced my engine ISTR there were 3 'faults'. I'd not plugged the EGR or the fuel tank breather solenoid in properly, and it threw the TC's from start-up. My money is on something similar since the Plenium must have been off to do the cam belt. But all should be revealed if we can get Lizze to read the codes 

Yep, I will try to tomorrow to help resolve the issue - I hope!  

[Lizzie Zoom]

I carried out a full repair of the breather pipe, checked all connections, and found just one loose nut on the pipe going into the right hand side of the plenum.

Still the light is on, steady, but not flashing.

The codes from the pedal trick exercise are:   0170 Fuel trim malfunction (Bank1)

                                                                  0173 Fuel trim malfunction (Bank2)

Frankly this makes me no wiser on what I should do now, so advise please.

If I have, somehow corrected the fault(s) already, can I cancel down these codes please?

 

[Doctor Gollum]

Clear the codes and see if they return.

But that nut is on the primary vacuum pipe from the inlet to the brake booster.

No reason on this planet for it to be loose. Ever.

Take it back to Serek and have him fix it.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Clear the codes and see if they return.

But that nut is on the primary vacuum pipe from the inlet to the brake booster.

No reason on this planet for it to be loose. Ever.

Take it back to Serek and have him fix it.

Thanks DG

How though do you clear the codes please?

Never done that before

[dave the builder]

a simple bluetooth ELM327 OBD2 dongle from amazon or ebay (£5 ish) and a free copy of the TORQUE app on your phone if android
plenty of youtube videos 

[Doctor Gollum]

Disconnecting the battery for 10 minutes is free

Although it won't clear the codes, it will reset everything. Including the light. Which may or may not return immediately.

Although I stand by my last post and suggest not clearing the codes but rather let him do it.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Thanks Dave and DG.

I will try the battery disconnection first, as I wouldnt know where to plug in a dongle

Failing that I will just see my Vx dealer to get them to rectify.  PS After reading another thread on dealers reading the codes, perhaps I will not!!

It is not worth driving the 232 miles round trip to see Serek.   

[Andy B]

....

I will try the battery disconnection first, as I wouldnt know where to plug in a dongle

it's in the fuse box under the steering column

Failing that I will just see my Vx dealer to get them to rectify.

 ...

You'll pay handsomely at a main dealer ....

[Lizzie Zoom]

....

I will try the battery disconnection first, as I wouldnt know where to plug in a dongle

it's in the fuse box under the steering column

Failing that I will just see my Vx dealer to get them to rectify.

 ...

You'll pay handsomely at a main dealer ....

Thanks Andy

Yes, I have just knocked on the head a dealer wiping the codes!!

[Andy B]

....
Yes, I have just knocked on the head a dealer wiping the codes!!

Go on .... what have they quoted you?

[Andy B]

I have the Merc version of this, though I should have gone for the Version 2. It''ll pay for itself the first time it's used in anger ..... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333422966058?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338749392&toolid=20006&customid=GB_131090_v1%7C333422966058%7C0.152353793910~1869924081750-g_Cj0KCQjwz8emBhDrARIsANNJjS5voRk86v4r6UAxJrDmeAn6eFhyg_dN6gpQVC42A0bCBtE-sXEa5GUaAmS8EALw_wcB&gclid=Cj0KCQjwz8emBhDrARIsANNJjS5voRk86v4r6UAxJrDmeAn6eFhyg_dN6gpQVC42A0bCBtE-sXEa5GUaAmS8EALw_wcB

[Lizzie Zoom]

....
Yes, I have just knocked on the head a dealer wiping the codes!!

Go on .... what have they quoted you?

Nothing yet, but I have read the other thread on this subject and them being quoted £141...............!!!
Maybe, just maybe, I will get a freebee if I talk nicely to my dealer where I know the General Manager....................

But at the moment I am going to try the DG approach, then the suggestion by Dave, which this video on Youtube covers both:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93F7KGMk5og

That is when the weather improves down here!!

[Doctor Gollum]

Thanks Dave and DG.

I will try the battery disconnection first, as I wouldnt know where to plug in a dongle

Failing that I will just see my Vx dealer to get them to rectify.  PS After reading another thread on dealers reading the codes, perhaps I will not!!

It is not worth driving the 232 miles round trip to see Serek.   

You don't know what has triggered the codes, and it has only happened since having work done.

As I see it's you have three choices:

1. Take it back to Serek to fix.
2. Pay another garage to diagnose and correct it. Which will include going over any work recently done.
3. Ignore the whole thing and hope it goes away.

232 miles may not be "worth it" but the savings you are trying to achieve will cost far more than a tank of fuel. Especially if he hasn't done simple stuff like checking everything disturbed is correctly fitted.

And whilst it is incredibly noble of James V6* to offer to work for near free, that doesn't address the fact that the work you paid Serek to complete has potentially caused issues and as a commercial garage he has an obligation to fix any issues resulting from work done and having anyone else look at it will waive your right to recourse.

Not wanting to over egg the omelette, but if that vacuum pipe had come loose then you could have been left with a runaway engine and no brakes. Whilst driving home with your grandson.

* He hasn't yet and not should he.

[Lizzie Zoom]

a simple bluetooth ELM327 OBD2 dongle from amazon or ebay (£5 ish) and a free copy of the TORQUE app on your phone if android
plenty of youtube videos 

Thanks for that tip Dave.

I have been studying the ones on Amazon, but there seems to be a whole range of prices.  I do not need one that covers diesels or trucks, so which price range / brand is the right one for an Omega please?

Certainly between £15 and £35 is a price I am prepared to pay, but...........................what is really the best?

[Lizzie Zoom]

Thanks Dave and DG.

I will try the battery disconnection first, as I wouldnt know where to plug in a dongle

Failing that I will just see my Vx dealer to get them to rectify.  PS After reading another thread on dealers reading the codes, perhaps I will not!!

It is not worth driving the 232 miles round trip to see Serek.   

You don't know what has triggered the codes, and it has only happened since having work done.

As I see it's you have three choices:

1. Take it back to Serek to fix.
2. Pay another garage to diagnose and correct it. Which will include going over any work recently done.
3. Ignore the whole thing and hope it goes away.

232 miles may not be "worth it" but the savings you are trying to achieve will cost far more than a tank of fuel. Especially if he hasn't done simple stuff like checking everything disturbed is correctly fitted.

And whilst it is incredibly noble of James V6* to offer to work for near free, that doesn't address the fact that the work you paid Serek to complete has potentially caused issues and as a commercial garage he has an obligation to fix any issues resulting from work done and having anyone else look at it will waive your right to recourse.

Not wanting to over egg the omelette, but if that vacuum pipe had come loose then you could have been left with a runaway engine and no brakes. Whilst driving home with your grandson.

* He hasn't yet and not should he.

I understand where you are coming from DG.  But I place no blame on Serek as he did all the work I required to a great standard, in just a few hours, and charged a very fair price.  I drove the car all the way back over the 116 miles without issue.  I then used the car around town all weekend.  It was only yesterday morning that the split, loose, breather pipe came to the surface. n I knew this pipe was not perfect at my last service in 2022, but it did still offer a good seal for the breather /plenum.  When Serek refitted the plenum he made the pipe seal well again, but sods law is that the split was slightly worse after it was refitted, and eventually gave way.  In no way was Serek responsible for this in the scheme of things as it was just bad luck that the pipe failed yesterday, but now I have fixed that issue, and tightened a loose connection.

Although the light is showing now, I am confident, as much as we can ever be with cars, that the cause of warning light staying on after codes were created, has been fixed.  It is now just a case of cancelling down the codes.  Then the problem will be fixed.  If not, it is something more serious and, although I do not understand the meaning of the "Fuel trim malfunctions", I will just take the plenum right off and take the opportunity of carrying out a major service, earlier than planned, with the replacement of the offending breather pipe whilst I can.  I feel there is little point in taking the car back to Serek

So that is the plan, which is not really much of a challenge compared to what I have had to historically do on my personal cars.  I will sort it!

 

[LC0112G]

"Fuel Trim Malfunction" means the ECU is having to inject more (or less) fuel into the engine than it expects to in order to get the lambda sensor readings into range. This can be caused by either an inlet manifold air leak, or an exhaust leak.

The ECU measures the amount of air entering the engine from the MAF (Mass Air Flow Sensor) on the side of the airbox. Once it knows how much air is going into the engine, it calculates how much fuel to inject to burn all the oxygen most efficiently - the ratio is called stoichimetric and is (approximatley) 14.7g of oxygen per 1g of petrol. So the ECU calculates the fuel injector duration based on that mix.

The lambda sensors measure the results of the actual combustion. If the exhaust is too rich, it tweaks the injector duration down a bit. If the mix is too lean it tweaks it up a bit. There are limits on the amount of tweaking though, and if the ECU cannot get the exhaust to be spot on within these limits then it will throw these trouble codes.

An air leak on on the inlet manifold allows unmetered air into the inlet manifold, which the ECU hasn't 'measured' by the MAF sensor, so the ECU doesn't inject enough fuel to burn the mix, and the lambdas see a lean exhaust. If the leak is big enough then you get these fault codes.

The ECU learns and remembers the fuel trims over a long period. On most systems you can reset them back to default by disconnecting the battery for 10-15 minutes. Don't know if this works on a 3.2 though. Some systems also clear the trouble codes after a number of error free starts - typically 50 or so.

I still doubt the breathers are responsible - I ran my car for a few weeks with them disconnected although that is a 3.0. The Brake servo pipe is another issue - that's quite big and if it's loose enough could allow a lot of air unmetered in. Tighten it up. Now. It's also possible to mess up the 6 O rings between the plenium and the manifold.

[YZ250]

It’s always handy to have a code reader in your car, regardless of make. Most of the cheaper code readers (dongles) easily fit in the glovebox or the cheaper generic type can be tucked away in the boot. You have it with you at all times then.
I used my Autel to read and clear codes successfully on my Omega 3.2 on many occasions. Mine also does live data but only works on engine codes. I carried a Carly dongle in my BMW’s and I carry OBDEleven (VAGCom) dongle in our Audi’s.
If I lived nearer I’d clear the codes for you , is there nobody within a sensible distance. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Thanks Dave and DG.

I will try the battery disconnection first, as I wouldnt know where to plug in a dongle

Failing that I will just see my Vx dealer to get them to rectify.  PS After reading another thread on dealers reading the codes, perhaps I will not!!

It is not worth driving the 232 miles round trip to see Serek.   

You don't know what has triggered the codes, and it has only happened since having work done.

As I see it's you have three choices:

1. Take it back to Serek to fix.
2. Pay another garage to diagnose and correct it. Which will include going over any work recently done.
3. Ignore the whole thing and hope it goes away.

232 miles may not be "worth it" but the savings you are trying to achieve will cost far more than a tank of fuel. Especially if he hasn't done simple stuff like checking everything disturbed is correctly fitted.

And whilst it is incredibly noble of James V6* to offer to work for near free, that doesn't address the fact that the work you paid Serek to complete has potentially caused issues and as a commercial garage he has an obligation to fix any issues resulting from work done and having anyone else look at it will waive your right to recourse.

Not wanting to over egg the omelette, but if that vacuum pipe had come loose then you could have been left with a runaway engine and no brakes. Whilst driving home with your grandson.

* He hasn't yet and not should he.

I understand where you are coming from DG.  But I place no blame on Serek as he did all the work I required to a great standard, in just a few hours, and charged a very fair price.  I drove the car all the way back over the 116 miles without issue.  I then used the car around town all weekend.  It was only yesterday morning that the split, loose, breather pipe came to the surface. n I knew this pipe was not perfect at my last service in 2022, but it did still offer a good seal for the breather /plenum.  When Serek refitted the plenum he made the pipe seal well again, but sods law is that the split was slightly worse after it was refitted, and eventually gave way.  In no way was Serek responsible for this in the scheme of things as it was just bad luck that the pipe failed yesterday, but now I have fixed that issue, and tightened a loose connection.

Although the light is showing now, I am confident, as much as we can ever be with cars, that the cause of warning light staying on after codes were created, has been fixed.  It is now just a case of cancelling down the codes.  Then the problem will be fixed.  If not, it is something more serious and, although I do not understand the meaning of the "Fuel trim malfunctions", I will just take the plenum right off and take the opportunity of carrying out a major service, earlier than planned, with the replacement of the offending breather pipe whilst I can.  I feel there is little point in taking the car back to Serek

So that is the plan, which is not really much of a challenge compared to what I have had to historically do on my personal cars.  I will sort it!

 

Apparently he didn't 

That "loose connection" should never have been loose. Notwithstanding the split hose.

You have identified two issues, one of which was present following previous work and still unresolved and another that might have killed you or your grandson.

If that's to a great standard, then you have much bigger problems.

[Lizzie Zoom]

"Fuel Trim Malfunction" means the ECU is having to inject more (or less) fuel into the engine than it expects to in order to get the lambda sensor readings into range. This can be caused by either an inlet manifold air leak, or an exhaust leak.

The ECU measures the amount of air entering the engine from the MAF (Mass Air Flow Sensor) on the side of the airbox. Once it knows how much air is going into the engine, it calculates how much fuel to inject to burn all the oxygen most efficiently - the ratio is called stoichimetric and is (approximatley) 14.7g of oxygen per 1g of petrol. So the ECU calculates the fuel injector duration based on that mix.

The lambda sensors measure the results of the actual combustion. If the exhaust is too rich, it tweaks the injector duration down a bit. If the mix is too lean it tweaks it up a bit. There are limits on the amount of tweaking though, and if the ECU cannot get the exhaust to be spot on within these limits then it will throw these trouble codes.

An air leak on on the inlet manifold allows unmetered air into the inlet manifold, which the ECU hasn't 'measured' by the MAF sensor, so the ECU doesn't inject enough fuel to burn the mix, and the lambdas see a lean exhaust. If the leak is big enough then you get these fault codes.

The ECU learns and remembers the fuel trims over a long period. On most systems you can reset them back to default by disconnecting the battery for 10-15 minutes. Don't know if this works on a 3.2 though. Some systems also clear the trouble codes after a number of error free starts - typically 50 or so.

I still doubt the breathers are responsible - I ran my car for a few weeks with them disconnected although that is a 3.0. The Brake servo pipe is another issue - that's quite big and if it's loose enough could allow a lot of air unmetered in. Tighten it up. Now. It's also possible to mess up the 6 O rings between the plenium and the manifold.

Thanks for that

I have taken that on board, and will decide what action to take once I try to cancel down the codes

[Lizzie Zoom]

It’s always handy to have a code reader in your car, regardless of make. Most of the cheaper code readers (dongles) easily fit in the glovebox or the cheaper generic type can be tucked away in the boot. You have it with you at all times then.
I used my Autel to read and clear codes successfully on my Omega 3.2 on many occasions. Mine also does live data but only works on engine codes. I carried a Carly dongle in my BMW’s and I carry OBDEleven (VAGCom) dongle in our Audi’s.
If I lived nearer I’d clear the codes for you , is there nobody within a sensible distance. 

Yes, I have decided to buy one no matter what happens with the codes over the next few days.

Thanks for that sentiment YZ250, but no OOF is thin on the ground in this part of Kent so I will do what I can myself - well, at least to start with!!

[Lizzie Zoom]

Thanks Dave and DG.

I will try the battery disconnection first, as I wouldnt know where to plug in a dongle

Failing that I will just see my Vx dealer to get them to rectify.  PS After reading another thread on dealers reading the codes, perhaps I will not!!

It is not worth driving the 232 miles round trip to see Serek.   

You don't know what has triggered the codes, and it has only happened since having work done.

As I see it's you have three choices:

1. Take it back to Serek to fix.
2. Pay another garage to diagnose and correct it. Which will include going over any work recently done.
3. Ignore the whole thing and hope it goes away.

232 miles may not be "worth it" but the savings you are trying to achieve will cost far more than a tank of fuel. Especially if he hasn't done simple stuff like checking everything disturbed is correctly fitted.

And whilst it is incredibly noble of James V6* to offer to work for near free, that doesn't address the fact that the work you paid Serek to complete has potentially caused issues and as a commercial garage he has an obligation to fix any issues resulting from work done and having anyone else look at it will waive your right to recourse.

Not wanting to over egg the omelette, but if that vacuum pipe had come loose then you could have been left with a runaway engine and no brakes. Whilst driving home with your grandson.

* He hasn't yet and not should he.

I understand where you are coming from DG.  But I place no blame on Serek as he did all the work I required to a great standard, in just a few hours, and charged a very fair price.  I drove the car all the way back over the 116 miles without issue.  I then used the car around town all weekend.  It was only yesterday morning that the split, loose, breather pipe came to the surface. n I knew this pipe was not perfect at my last service in 2022, but it did still offer a good seal for the breather /plenum.  When Serek refitted the plenum he made the pipe seal well again, but sods law is that the split was slightly worse after it was refitted, and eventually gave way.  In no way was Serek responsible for this in the scheme of things as it was just bad luck that the pipe failed yesterday, but now I have fixed that issue, and tightened a loose connection.

Although the light is showing now, I am confident, as much as we can ever be with cars, that the cause of warning light staying on after codes were created, has been fixed.  It is now just a case of cancelling down the codes.  Then the problem will be fixed.  If not, it is something more serious and, although I do not understand the meaning of the "Fuel trim malfunctions", I will just take the plenum right off and take the opportunity of carrying out a major service, earlier than planned, with the replacement of the offending breather pipe whilst I can.  I feel there is little point in taking the car back to Serek

So that is the plan, which is not really much of a challenge compared to what I have had to historically do on my personal cars.  I will sort it!

 

Apparently he didn't 

That "loose connection" should never have been loose. Notwithstanding the split hose.

You have identified two issues, one of which was present following previous work and still unresolved and another that might have killed you or your grandson.

If that's to a great standard, then you have much bigger problems.

What!!!
How and why please.  You are scaring me now!

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Might be worth using a small cable tie to secure the hose to the plenum, as its split and in the habit of coming off.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Might be worth using a small cable tie to secure the hose to the plenum, as its split and in the habit of coming off.

Indeed!  I have taped it up tightly with heat resistant Gorilla Tape, plus used a jubilee clip,  so at the moment it is VERY secure

[dave the builder]

a simple bluetooth ELM327 OBD2 dongle from amazon or ebay (£5 ish) and a free copy of the TORQUE app on your phone if android
plenty of youtube videos 

Thanks for that tip Dave.

I have been studying the ones on Amazon, but there seems to be a whole range of prices.  I do not need one that covers diesels or trucks, so which price range / brand is the right one for an Omega please?

Certainly between £15 and £35 is a price I am prepared to pay, but...........................what is really the best?

if you've GOT TO spend that much then just buy several of these £4.59 items   or similar 
(that listing says UK stock with Economy Delivery Royal Mail Tracked 48)

OR
buy just one @ £4.59
put the rest of the budget in a metal tin (it can't burn a hole in your pocket then) 

[Doctor Gollum]

What!!!
How and why please.  You are scaring me now!

The loose nut on the side of the plenum as you put it is the vacuum line for the brake booster.

If it had come undone then you would have no brake servo and a massive airleak directly into the inlet manifold. The second thing would see the ECU add fuel to try to keep up.

The first thing might go unnoticed until you had used the brakes. Now imagine finding out that you have no brake assistance on the M1/25/20 when the traffic ahead suddenly stopped. By the time your brain has caught up, you're in the back of the car in front. At speed. Granted that's a worst case, and it's not a question of blaming or pointing fingers, but if they, as a garage, did or didn't do something accidentally, deliberately or otherwise, then they have a legal obligation to put it right.

A point I did allude to much earlier today but you chose to skim read.

Your first port of call should have been to call Serek and ask why your vacuum pipe nut was loose and secondarily why the EML has come on following very recent work at SOS and go from there.

[Lizzie Zoom]

a simple bluetooth ELM327 OBD2 dongle from amazon or ebay (£5 ish) and a free copy of the TORQUE app on your phone if android
plenty of youtube videos 

Thanks for that tip Dave.

I have been studying the ones on Amazon, but there seems to be a whole range of prices.  I do not need one that covers diesels or trucks, so which price range / brand is the right one for an Omega please?

Certainly between £15 and £35 is a price I am prepared to pay, but...........................what is really the best?

if you've GOT TO spend that much then just buy several of these £4.59 items   or similar 
(that listing says UK stock with Economy Delivery Royal Mail Tracked 48)

OR
buy just one @ £4.59
put the rest of the budget in a metal tin (it can't burn a hole in your pocket then) 

    Thanks Dave, I have just ordered one, saving me greatly!

[Lizzie Zoom]

What!!!
How and why please.  You are scaring me now!

The loose nut on the side of the plenum as you put it is the vacuum line for the brake booster.

If it had come undone then you would have no brake servo and a massive airleak directly into the inlet manifold. The second thing would see the ECU add fuel to try to keep up.

The first thing might go unnoticed until you had used the brakes. Now imagine finding out that you have no brake assistance on the M1/25/20 when the traffic ahead suddenly stopped. By the time your brain has caught up, you're in the back of the car in front. At speed. Granted that's a worst case, and it's not a question of blaming or pointing fingers, but if they, as a garage, did or didn't do something accidentally, deliberately or otherwise, then they have a legal obligation to put it right.

A point I did allude to much earlier today but you chose to skim read.

Your first port of call should have been to call Serek and ask why your vacuum pipe nut was loose and secondarily why the EML has come on following very recent work at SOS and go from there.

I understand now

The brakes were great though, after Serek had replaced the rear pads. So, maybe we were at risk, but nothing showed.

But that nut on the pipe was loose, so why didn’t that fault show in the way you suggest?

[Doctor Gollum]

What!!!
How and why please.  You are scaring me now!

The loose nut on the side of the plenum as you put it is the vacuum line for the brake booster.

If it had come undone then you would have no brake servo and a massive airleak directly into the inlet manifold. The second thing would see the ECU add fuel to try to keep up.

The first thing might go unnoticed until you had used the brakes. Now imagine finding out that you have no brake assistance on the M1/25/20 when the traffic ahead suddenly stopped. By the time your brain has caught up, you're in the back of the car in front. At speed. Granted that's a worst case, and it's not a question of blaming or pointing fingers, but if they, as a garage, did or didn't do something accidentally, deliberately or otherwise, then they have a legal obligation to put it right.

A point I did allude to much earlier today but you chose to skim read.

Your first port of call should have been to call Serek and ask why your vacuum pipe nut was loose and secondarily why the EML has come on following very recent work at SOS and go from there.

I understand now

The brakes were great though, after Serek had replaced the rear pads. So, maybe we were at risk, but nothing showed.

The rear pads have nothing to do with brake vacuum boost performance.

We're talking about the difference between normal squishy Omega brakes and trying to push the pedal through the radiator just to knock 5mph off the speed.

If your pet dealer had done this, you would be screaming blue murder about it instead of blowing smoke up his arse.

[YZ250]

………….
The first thing might go unnoticed until you had used the brakes. Now imagine finding out that you have no brake assistance on the M1/25/20 when the traffic ahead suddenly stopped. By the time your brain has caught up, you're in the back of the car in front. At speed. ……

That happened to me on the A30 on my way to Cornwall many years ago. Flat out in my V8 Vitesse when I noticed the traffic in the distance braking to a standstill. I braked fairly hard but then heard a pop, and the brake pedal went solid. I did manage to stop but it was tight and a scary experience.
On investigation, the brake servo chamber had rotted at the join and the vacuum had blown a hole in it. 

[VXL V6]

………….
The first thing might go unnoticed until you had used the brakes. Now imagine finding out that you have no brake assistance on the M1/25/20 when the traffic ahead suddenly stopped. By the time your brain has caught up, you're in the back of the car in front. At speed. ……

That happened to me on the A30 on my way to Cornwall many years ago. Flat out in my V8 Vitesse when I noticed the traffic in the distance braking to a standstill. I braked fairly hard but then heard a pop, and the brake pedal went solid. I did manage to stop but it was tight and a scary experience.
On investigation, the brake servo chamber had rotted at the join and the vacuum had blown a hole in it. 

Not sure my underwear would have survived that failure!!

Even when working SD1 brakes were always crap (I'm sure Vitesse ones were better than standard though), I have memories of getting plenty of smoke from them when stopping (eventually) from motorway speeds in my younger days     I know the Met fitted different wheels so they could accommodate Jag XJS calipers which says it all really

Lizzie, can't say i've read every post on this thread but if not mentioned already, i'd tighten up the vac hose fitting to the plenum (17mm spanner on the inner fitting and 19mm on the outer - tighten the 19mm nut while holding the 17mm). There was a known fault with that pipe rubbing through from contact with the AC pipe if the spacer wasn't fitted, my first Omega suffered this which caused a slightly spongy brake pedal (but no problem pulling up the car in fairness) and diabolical fuel consumption.

[LC0112G]

There was a known fault with that pipe rubbing through from contact with the AC pipe if the spacer wasn't fitted, my first Omega suffered this which caused a slightly spongy brake pedal (but no problem pulling up the car in fairness) and diabolical fuel consumption.

You mean like this...
https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=147593.msg1964758#msg1964758

[VXL V6]

There was a known fault with that pipe rubbing through from contact with the AC pipe if the spacer wasn't fitted, my first Omega suffered this which caused a slightly spongy brake pedal (but no problem pulling up the car in fairness) and diabolical fuel consumption.

You mean like this...
https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=147593.msg1964758#msg1964758

Aye! Mark DTM did a similar temp repair on mine until I got a new pipe. The irony is that the plastic spacer that should keep the pipes apart causes the AC Pipe to wear through after a few years!

[Lizzie Zoom]

………….
The first thing might go unnoticed until you had used the brakes. Now imagine finding out that you have no brake assistance on the M1/25/20 when the traffic ahead suddenly stopped. By the time your brain has caught up, you're in the back of the car in front. At speed. ……

That happened to me on the A30 on my way to Cornwall many years ago. Flat out in my V8 Vitesse when I noticed the traffic in the distance braking to a standstill. I braked fairly hard but then heard a pop, and the brake pedal went solid. I did manage to stop but it was tight and a scary experience.
On investigation, the brake servo chamber had rotted at the join and the vacuum had blown a hole in it. 

Not sure my underwear would have survived that failure!!

Even when working SD1 brakes were always crap (I'm sure Vitesse ones were better than standard though), I have memories of getting plenty of smoke from them when stopping (eventually) from motorway speeds in my younger days     I know the Met fitted different wheels so they could accommodate Jag XJS calipers which says it all really

Lizzie, can't say i've read every post on this thread but if not mentioned already, i'd tighten up the vac hose fitting to the plenum (17mm spanner on the inner fitting and 19mm on the outer - tighten the 19mm nut while holding the 17mm). There was a known fault with that pipe rubbing through from contact with the AC pipe if the spacer wasn't fitted, my first Omega suffered this which caused a slightly spongy brake pedal (but no problem pulling up the car in fairness) and diabolical fuel consumption.

Yes, thanks VXL V6, all done when I found the nut was not tightened up.

I am now going to check the A/C spacer.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I eventually bought BOTH the scanner recommended by Dave (many thanks for that Dave) for a reduced price of £3.83, AND a OBD2 for reduced price of £9.98 from Amazon.  The first one will be delivered on Friday, but the second arrived yesterday.

So this morning, after reading the simple instructions and watching a video, I had the device plugged into the car, connected it to the “Car Scanner” app loaded onto my phone, then cleared the codes -  engine light went off immediately!

All this done within 3 minutes max!

I did seriously consider the wise recommendation by DG to just disconnect the battery for free, but on balance I wanted to do the full scanner exercise, for the first time ever, to gain experience, all for under £14.  In the end it was far quicker to use the scanner than any other method to clear the codes.

Thanks though for all the advice you all gave me.  It really helped!

This certainly has made me think yet again of how different keeping a modern car on the road is to the old days;  no electronics, no codes, just ‘simple’ mechanics in my Austin A40!
Just had to deal with broken valves, tightening the tappets, overhauling the carburettor, adjusting the fuel mix, and adjusting the timing.  All real mechanics stuff! 

[Rangie]

Nice to hear that you got it all sorted Lizzie 👍

[Lizzie Zoom]

Nice to hear that you got it all sorted Lizzie 👍

Thanks Rangie!

It was only due to the great pool of knowledge on the OOF that I did.

[Nick W]

What were the codes?

[Lizzie Zoom]

What were the codes?

As I quoted previously:  0170
                                   0173

 

[TheBoy]

On Omegas disconnecting battery tends not to turn off EML for those Non Present codes that keep the EML on (generally emissions ones), because the Non Present code is still, well, present

Another tip on the V6 Omegas to reset fuel trims and other BLMs is to purposely put on a fault (eg, unplug MAF) wait for EML to come on, then clear the codes.  Clearing an engine ECU code on these also resets all the BLMs.  Handy for generic readers than can't otherwise reset BLMs.


LZ - keep that device in the glovebox. They are small and don't get in the way, and has the potential to get you out of trouble

[Lizzie Zoom]

On Omegas disconnecting battery tends not to turn off EML for those Non Present codes that keep the EML on (generally emissions ones), because the Non Present code is still, well, present

Another tip on the V6 Omegas to reset fuel trims and other BLMs is to purposely put on a fault (eg, unplug MAF) wait for EML to come on, then clear the codes.  Clearing an engine ECU code on these also resets all the BLMs.  Handy for generic readers than can't otherwise reset BLMs.


LZ - keep that device in the glovebox. They are small and don't get in the way, and has the potential to get you out of trouble

Oh yes TB, thanks, I have now TWO of those devices in the glove box!

I feel quite modern and up to date now!

[JamesV6CDX]

Sorry, only just seen this, have been busy with loads of non car stuff lately else I’d have offered to take a look.

On balance, the issue was almost certainly the ECU compensating for unmetered air, entering post MAF from the loose servo pipe connection.

I’m not getting drawn into any conversation about anyones standard of work, save to say that even the most skilled people in the world can make an odd mistake, and it’s only human. Serek is an incredibly skilled mechanic.

What I will say though is sod the light - I’m just glad you found that loose servo hose.

If that came off, two things would have happened - the huge influx of unmetered air would have caused your engine to run at full revs, and your braking ability reduced by at least 80%. So thank god you caught it.

[Doctor Gollum]

As a business owner Serek has a responsibility to rectify any issues raised as a potential short coming of recent work.

I don't believe that he has been given this opportunity.

And there's the underlying niggle that if something that obvious wasn't tightened securely for whatever reason (not the actual point of debate here), then what else may have been overlooked?

Taking the car back in and rechecking everything done wouldn't have been an unreasonable course of action. Not that he was afforded that opportunity.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Sorry, only just seen this, have been busy with loads of non car stuff lately else I’d have offered to take a look.

On balance, the issue was almost certainly the ECU compensating for unmetered air, entering post MAF from the loose servo pipe connection.

I’m not getting drawn into any conversation about anyones standard of work, save to say that even the most skilled people in the world can make an odd mistake, and it’s only human. Serek is an incredibly skilled mechanic.

What I will say though is sod the light - I’m just glad you found that loose servo hose.

If that came off, two things would have happened - the huge influx of unmetered air would have caused your engine to run at full revs, and your braking ability reduced by at least 80%. So thank god you caught it.

Thanks James I agree with all that!

I certainly have learnt, yet again, more about a "modern" car

[LC0112G]

If that came off, two things would have happened - the huge influx of unmetered air would have caused your engine to run at full revs, and your braking ability reduced by at least 80%. So thank god you caught it.

No it wouldn't. The engine would stall at the first (and every) opportunity.

Agree about the brakes, they would be very wooden and ineffective, although the brake servo would hold vacuum for a while if it fell off mid drive.

[Lizzie Zoom]

As a business owner Serek has a responsibility to rectify any issues raised as a potential short coming of recent work.

I don't believe that he has been given this opportunity.

And there's the underlying niggle that if something that obvious wasn't tightened securely for whatever reason (not the actual point of debate here), then what else may have been overlooked?

Taking the car back in and rechecking everything done wouldn't have been an unreasonable course of action. Not that he was afforded that opportunity.

As I have said before, I understand where you are coming from DG

But, Serek, like the rest of us is allowed the odd slip up.  As James states, Serek is only human.  In fact when Serek has done work on my car in the past it has been excellent.  This time the rest of the work was also done to a very high standard, and, very importantly, at a overall price that puts the greedy sods down here in their place.  They want well over double Serek charges, and DO make the errors that even skilled mechanics, like Serek, can make. 

To put right what I have SIMPLY rectified, albeit with great observations along with advice from you DG and others, has meant not driving a round trip of 232 miles, and paying Dart Charges.  So I am a pragmatist who just puts this all down to experience. I did this when a brand new Cortina Estate I had almost lost it's prop shaft due to only two bolts holding it together, or another brand new Cortina Estate needing me to take the water inlet pipe off to take out a big lump of metal crud, left in there by Dagenham, which made the engine go into meltdown!  Other Carltons and a Senator were also left with potentially dangerous issues by main dealer garages at times, needing me to urgently return them.  They all got my sharp tongue, but all was sorted and the errors not repeated.

Again No one was luckily hurt, and I could put the issue right. I still believe Serek is a very honest, friendly, guy who knows his way around an Omega like many others in the trade do not.  Unlike those 'others' he does not, like they did when seeking a price for a cam belt change with me supplying the parts, suck in air and say "that is a lot of work....all that at the top of the engine must come off.......£480!!!  Again, things can be overlooked as Serek did on this one occasion, but it does not put me off from using his services because that suits my pocket and I know things usually will be done correctly.  For instance the cam belt has been fitted perfectly, with the engine running very well and MPG at an acceptable level; also the hand brake has been adjusted to a tightness not achieved by others, with the rear brakes feeling superb.  The steering is also now not "moaning" and feels like new after he changed the fluid.

I will be phoning Serek this week now I know what was wrong and how to fix it, with a small reprimand given!  But that will be the end of it.  Nothing has changed.

[Doctor Gollum]

You obviously don't.

It's not a question of reprimand, but rather verification that nothing else was overlooked. As the person responsible for that work, regardless of who carried it out, Serek has a responsibility to check and rectify where required.

A reputable garage would graciously accept any reasonable costs incurred as a result of that. But you are simply making any and every excuse not to afford him that opportunity.

Which begs the question as to why.

[Lizzie Zoom]

 

This is getting boring now.  Just read my last post.  End of.

[Doctor Gollum]

This is getting boring now.  Just read my last post.  End of.

I will reread yours if you actually read mine.

[dave the builder]

DG , play fair
make sure Lizzie is on-line before posting, so she can have the last word 

[Doctor Gollum]

DG , play fair
make sure Lizzie is on-line before posting, so she can have the last word 

[JamesV6CDX]

If that came off, two things would have happened - the huge influx of unmetered air would have caused your engine to run at full revs, and your braking ability reduced by at least 80%. So thank god you caught it.

No it wouldn't. The engine would stall at the first (and every) opportunity.

Agree about the brakes, they would be very wooden and ineffective, although the brake servo would hold vacuum for a while if it fell off mid drive.

I don't think you're wrong, but I do think it depends on how loose the pipe was. If it didn't totally detach, but let enough air in, the revs could rise.

But it's academic.... main thing it isn't been caught early, and everyone is ok

[LC0112G]

If that came off, two things would have happened - the huge influx of unmetered air would have caused your engine to run at full revs, and your braking ability reduced by at least 80%. So thank god you caught it.

No it wouldn't. The engine would stall at the first (and every) opportunity.

Agree about the brakes, they would be very wooden and ineffective, although the brake servo would hold vacuum for a while if it fell off mid drive.

I don't think you're wrong, but I do think it depends on how loose the pipe was. If it didn't totally detach, but let enough air in, the revs could rise.

But it's academic.... main thing it isn't been caught early, and everyone is ok

You just have to consider where is the extra fuel going to come from. The ECU doesn't know about the extra air, so won't inject extra fuel to burn the extra (leaking) air. This will result in a lean mixture. Fuel/Air won't burn if the mix is greater than about 20:1 - normal stoichimetric is about 14.7:1. So if the air leak makes up more than about 30% of the air going into the engine, there won't be enough fuel to sustain combustion, and the engine will stall. This is most likely to happen when the throttle is closed - so at idle, or during overrun/deceleration. To keep the engine running you are likely to have to apply some throttle whilst sitting at traffic lights.

At larger throttle openings the engine will run, but it'll run leaner than desired. The volume of air passing through the throttle bodies (and more importantly over the MAF sensor) will be (much) larger than that through the air leak, so the ECU will inject enough fuel to sustain combustion. It'll still be running leaner than ideal though coz there won't be enough fuel to burn all the air, and at high power settings this could be damaging to the pistons. Lean mixtures burn hotter.

Lambda sensors don't despond quickly enough to catch this sort of behaviour - they're basically used to adjust medium and long term fuel trims. They won't learn quickly enough to compensate for air leaks, and even if they did, they only have enough authority to change the injector duration by about +/- 15%.

So on MAF (Mass Air Flow) based systems, air leaks tend to cause lean running, and stalling at low throttle openings. On a MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor setup things are different - and the engine would/could run away, but Omega B and most Vauxhalls are MAF setups.

[Lizzie Zoom]

As a final comment from me, I can confirm that I have discussed all matters with Serek, who couldn’t have been more apologetic.  He offered to check over all the work, but I said that wasn’t necessary as the problem had been overcome.  He also stated he would make amends when I next take the car to him, which I will do.
As far as I am concerned, case closed as all that I have stated before applies.

[YZ250]

…………..
the huge influx of unmetered air would have caused your engine to run at full revs, ……………….

This happens with two stroke bikes.    A split carburettor boot, a leaking crank seal, any air that gets in the cylinder and away they go at full throttle. Just hope that you are in gear when it happens so that you can jump on the rear brake or stick it against a tree to stall it, as you’ve got no chance using the kill switch and by the time you’ve pulled a lead off the engine would have eaten itself. 

Anyway, glad you’re sorted Lizzie.