Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: terry paget on 15 March 2020, 12:26:56
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2008 Vectra 1.8 petrol manual
I have just changed the thermostat and body. On refilling with coolant there is a leak from behind the exhaut manifold. There is a pipe from the water pump to the thermostat, presumably the source of the leak. How do I change that?
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/rtnt2ygmjljnbvu/DN08pipeLHend.jpg?dl=1)
Just a couple of pics. Above is the LH end of the pipe disappearing behind the exhaust manifold
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/1818pf32fy7dg51/DN08pipeRHend.jpg?dl=1)
and here is the right hand of the pipe, entering the water pump. Note the bellows to allow for movement in installation. Both pics taken with the manifold heat shield removed.
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Are you sure the thermostat housing is not cracked (very common) , and the coolant is just running along the pipe ?
best to pinpoint the leak for sure before part swapping
you could pressurize the cooling system with air :y
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Presumably the gasket was replaced prior to refitting.
Also, the 'bellows' are to prevent vibration fatigue, not fitting as the pipe is generally fitted prior to the exhaust manifold...
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Yes, Dave, and have just checked. There is no coolant running along the pipe, but it is still dripping off, and running off the catalyst/front pipe joint, see.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/xzuarqm5ek7elqh/DN08DRIPfromCAT.jpg?dl=1)
As I suspected, Doc. Next question - will the pipe come off without removing the exhaust manifold? I am hoping if I remove the coolant pump it will come out that way.
The original problem was a coolant leak below the thermostat to pipe joint. To correct this I changed the thermostat and holder, and applied some gasket compound to the square section sealing ring on the pipe LH end.
There was some sort of joint or rubber support in the middle of the pipe, sadly photograph did not show it.
My donor Astra 1.4 is not the same.
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Manifold off.
iirc, water pump is cambelt driven so there is no way on this planet you will be removing it the way you suggest.
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Also, coolant should be orange...
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/s5k3a0ogal3avto/DN08waterPUMPbelt.jpg?dl=1)
I think coolant pump is aux belt driven, Doc, must be a Z18XER engine. Sorry to hear about the exhaust manifold coming off, though, I have memories of head studs breaking off on Omegas. and that job getting out of hand. and I cannot find any used coolant pipes on e-bay. I wonder if Vx still stock them?
Wife says I should stop doing car repairs. I wonder what a garage would charge for the job?
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I don't think you should stop doing car repairs Terry.
I do think you should get somebody else to buy the cars for you.
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I don't think you should stop doing car repairs Terry.
I do think you should get somebody else to buy the cars for you.
Couldn't have put it any better. :y
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Thanks gentlemen, I accept exhaust manifold has to come off. Haynes gives it 3 spanners, so not too difficult. Trouble is, he dismantled a new car, my car is 14 years old. I had the heat shield off yesterday, that was half the job.
Next time I must cork the dip stick hole to avoid oil loss.
Any tips on removing the removing the screws attaching exhaust front section to manicat?
Do the manifold and the catalyst form one item, the manicat?
Is there any way I can facilitate removing manifold to head nuts from studs?
I imagine the pipe is cracked. Both ends appear to have 'O' ring or similar joints. Pipe looks like stainless steel. Will it be repairable?
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I suspect removing the manifold will be a serious pain in the Arris. I'll bet a tidy sum that you'll end up having to drill out snapped studs and all sorts of other sh!te.
Is there an option of cutting the old hose to remove and then re-routing using a longer flexible coolant hose, such as used by kit car builders. E.g.
https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/38mm-id-x-450mm-long-vulcoflex-flexible-coolant-hose (https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/38mm-id-x-450mm-long-vulcoflex-flexible-coolant-hose)
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I suspect removing the manifold will be a serious pain in the Arris. I'll bet a tidy sum that you'll end up having to drill out snapped studs and all sorts of other sh!te.
Is there an option of cutting the old hose to remove and then re-routing using a longer flexible coolant hose, such as used by kit car builders. E.g.
https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/38mm-id-x-450mm-long-vulcoflex-flexible-coolant-hose (https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/38mm-id-x-450mm-long-vulcoflex-flexible-coolant-hose)
I don't think I have a choice. I am aware of the risk if studs breaking off in the head, I have been there before on Omega2s and 2.2s. I enquired about means of avoiding this. I presume it is studs in the head and nuts on them. Posibly a little heat might help, but the head is aluminium alloy, so care is necessary. I have bought cars with the odd stud missing and the gasket still holding. I again invite suggestions. I had no trouble on Omega V6 cars,nor indeed on my first Omega 2 litre, just lucky I suppose.
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Pressure test the cooling system first, the source of the leak may well become more apparent. ;)
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Pressure test the cooling system first, the source of the leak may well become more apparent. ;)
Good suggestion, something I have never done. I have a brake bleeding kit which pressurise the master cylinder using he spare wheel, is that any use?
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I suspect removing the manifold will be a serious pain in the Arris. I'll bet a tidy sum that you'll end up having to drill out snapped studs and all sorts of other sh!te.
Is there an option of cutting the old hose to remove and then re-routing using a longer flexible coolant hose, such as used by kit car builders. E.g.
https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/38mm-id-x-450mm-long-vulcoflex-flexible-coolant-hose (https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/38mm-id-x-450mm-long-vulcoflex-flexible-coolant-hose)
Do you have experience of the Vectra, or maybe Astra, with this problem? On reflection, I had trouble with at least two 4 cylinder Omegas, but no trouble with 6 cylinder Omegas, or a Senator, or my Rover Streetwise. Not that it matters I shall find out soon enough. Iam aftraid your suggested rubber hose would not do, the metal pipe is shaped and the ends ar 'O' ring joints.
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Sorry no, I haven't experienced either vehicle. I've only ever taken the manifolds of 3 cars I think. A Desmond omega, fiat 131 twin cam and a 1.3 escort. All cars were c15yrs old at the time and all were a complete sh!t to do. Perhaps I'm just cack handed. ;D
My thoughts were that you would cut the metal pipe leaving 1-2" on either end, potentially flare the pipe and then use a flexi between the two flared ends.
All that said, I can't really picture in my mind the layout of the problem pipe from the pics you've shared, so I might be barking up completely the wrong tree.
I just think I'd try a couple of avenues before trying to get the manifold off. One of which would definitely be the pressure test DG suggested :y
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Yep
find the leak BEFORE trying to fix it
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/qp0uuuxbk4fjbgj/DN08pipeEXmanREMOVED.jpg?dl=1[img]
Exhaust manifold cam off without trouble or loss of studs, exposing the coolant tube, as above.
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/9nxa65sjbz530is/DN08pipeDRIP.jpg?dl=1)
Above pic, from below, shows a drip leaking from the tube passing through tunnel in casting.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/rt6isbntjt59cg8/DN08pipe%26tube.jpg?dl=1)
Pic showing pipe entering tube.
I am at a loss to know how to proceed. Please advise.
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hwre1rdi915jqb/DN08pipeEXHSTmanREMOVES.jpg?dl=1)
This post should precede post. The exhaust manifold came off easily and without studs breaking off. Above pic shows the coolant pipe from coolant pump to thermostat.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/9nxa65sjbz530is/DN08pipeDRIP.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/rt6isbntjt59cg8/DN08pipe%26tube.jpg?dl=1)
Above pic shows coolant pipe passing through a tube, part of a casting fixed to the head, also carrying other items including the oil filter assembly. This assembly looks tricky to remove. The coolant pipe was not expected to require attention; I am dismayed I have cracked it. All I was doing was changing the thermostat holder to cure a minor coolant leak from below the LH end of the coolant pipe. I must have pulled it forward to remove the sealing ring. Please advise.
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A pipe of two halves ::)
Remove it and replace both seals. No point doing anything less given the access.
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A pipe of two halves ::)
Remove it and replace both seals. No point doing anything less given the access.
Do you mean if I remove the ends I can pull them out separately? That had not occurred to me. I will try it. Thank you.
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How else would it be fitted? :-\
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As DG says it'll be two pieces pushed into o rings on both sides :y
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As DG says it'll be two pieces pushed into o rings on both sides :y
Like the Omega V6 thermostat pipe. Why didn't I think of that? Imagine my relief when he told me that. There was I wondering how I could remove the whole assembly, with oil filter and something else fixed behind the junction pipe.
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Another mystery on this car is the radiator drain tap. I fitted a new radiator about 6 months ago, not a Vx radiator, and the drain tap only turns a quarter of a turn, but seems to be closed in either position. It's not the end of the world, but pulling off the bottom hose to drain the radiator makes quite a mess. What am I doing wrong?
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Buying cheap radiators from random Chinese eBay suppliers notwithstanding...
Just pull the bottom hose ;)
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Buying cheap radiators from random Chinese eBay suppliers notwithstanding...
Just pull the bottom hose ;)
I bought the one you recommended, about £100. Next time I shall check the drain tap before I fit.
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Fair enough :-[
Slept since then, was it an old stock VX one?
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur37s9k18jp6b4u/DN08pipeENDjoint.jpg?dl=1)
I'm not surprised it leaked. This joint looks like it was not meant to be disturbed, felt spacer and black jointing compound. At least there is no need to get a pipe repaired. I note a hole in the middle section to the box behind, possibly to speed warm up.
Is there any point disturbing the other end, Doc?
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There may be an argument for doing it whilst you're there, but... If the other pipe hasn't been disturbed during other work, then I would be inclined to leave well alone...
See what Nick and Dave have to add ;)
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There may be an argument for doing it whilst you're there, but... If the other pipe hasn't been disturbed during other work, then I would be inclined to leave well alone...
See what Nick and Dave have to add ;)
if it isn't broke ,leave it well alone
if it is broke ,blame someone else :y
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There may be an argument for doing it whilst you're there, but... If the other pipe hasn't been disturbed during other work, then I would be inclined to leave well alone...
See what Nick and Dave have to add ;)
Seeing as the manifold had to come off for access, I would be doing all of the joints, as for that pic surely there should be an O ring on that pipe
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Seeing as the manifold had to come off for access, I would be doing all of the joints, as for that pic surely there should be an O ring on that pipe
I'd agree with this, the parts to renew the seals must be pence, and the incremental time to do it must also be fairly minimal.
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There may be an argument for doing it whilst you're there, but... If the other pipe hasn't been disturbed during other work, then I would be inclined to leave well alone...
See what Nick and Dave have to add ;)
Seeing as the manifold had to come off for access, I would be doing all of the joints, as for that pic surely there should be an O ring on that pipe
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur37s9k18jp6b4u/DN08pipeENDjoint.jpg?dl=1)
I suspect you are right. I have popped on an 'O' ring from my assorted box thereof; it looks right to me, though none came off with the pipe unless it dropped off. The end of the tunnel seems shaped to receive it too. Any comments anyone?
.
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Buy new from Vx and check carefully and repeatedly before reinserting the pipe that nothing is left in the casting ;)
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur37s9k18jp6b4u/DN08pipeENDjoint.jpg?dl=1)
Right pic
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2306bcv3sjilmb/DN08OringONpipeEND.jpg?dl=1)
Hopefully the right pic
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/7kdw07qlp977ftz/DN08tunnel2.jpg?dl=1)
Tunnel picture 1 taken with Samsung A10 phone, has flash near lens
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/dgw0uz38f5yxpgj/DN08tunnel3.jpg?dl=1)
second pic of tunnel. Is this an 'O' ring receptive tunnel I wonder?
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Buy new from Vx and check carefully and repeatedly before reinserting the pipe that nothing is left in the casting ;)
On reflection the thermostat pipe end would also accept an 'O' ring, similar size to the 'O' ring I popped on to the tunnel end, though the 'O' ring I put on tunnel end is a bit thin. It seems likely that the same 'O' ring should fit both ends, so worth getting from Vx. The whole point of this exercise was to cure a coolant leak.
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This morning I pushed the pipe with 'O'ring into the tunnel and it went in satisfactorily, seeming to touch the sides and possibily making a seal, like the thermostat connector on the V6 Omega. It did not go against a stop'. Looking inside again I do not see a complete ridge. In my Clarke 419 'O' ring set they come in two thicknesses, 2.5mm and 3.5mm section, the 22mm ID seems to be the best fit.
It's not my world. Are most 'O' rings either 2.5 or 3.5mm section, or do they commonly come in any section?
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That baked mess next to the o ring is/was the seal.
Do yourself a favour and buy the genuine parts for the actual job rather than trying to cobble a solution from the interweb :-X
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There may be an argument for doing it whilst you're there, but... If the other pipe hasn't been disturbed during other work, then I would be inclined to leave well alone...
See what Nick and Dave have to add ;)
Seeing as the manifold had to come off for access, I would be doing all of the joints, as for that pic surely there should be an O ring on that pipe
Do all of them while it's apart. Otherwise you'll be doing the job next week when the back seal fails. Make sure you clean the mounting faces and use a suitable lube so everything assembles easily without damaging your new seals.
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/v4h4ak6mhag074q/DN08pipeSQUAREsealingRING.JPG?dl=1)
I tried the square section ring from the thermostat end of the pipe on the tunnel end, see above pic; it fits a treat. Perhaps both end rings were the same, not 'O' rings at all.
Has anyone access to Vx parts lists?
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the original seal is STILL in the grove to the right of the extra seal you have now added on the pipe Terry
the black and rust section between 2 metal flares of the pipe :y
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My best advise would be to stop titting about with that old knackered part and just buy a new part .It will fit /stop the leak and you can then move on to the next problem
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the original seal is STILL in the grove to the right of the extra seal you have now added on the pipe Terry
the black and rust section between 2 metal flares of the pipe :y
I suspect you are right, Dave. It just looks so little alike the other seal. I shall consult my local Vx dealer, if he's open.
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the original seal is STILL in the grove to the right of the extra seal you have now added on the pipe Terry
the black and rust section between 2 metal flares of the pipe :y
I suspect you are right, Dave. It just looks so little alike the other seal. I shall consult my local Vx dealer, if he's open.
But Terry .....
your grounded and not allowed out ;D
have you missed the news :-\
so no rush to fix the Vectra either
get a family member to see if the seal is available or order online :y
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the original seal is STILL in the grove to the right of the extra seal you have now added on the pipe Terry
the black and rust section between 2 metal flares of the pipe :y
I suspect you are right, Dave. It just looks so little alike the other seal. I shall consult my local Vx dealer, if he's open.
But Terry .....
your grounded and not allowed out ;D
have you missed the news :-\
so no rush to fix the Vectra either
get a family member to see if the seal is available or order online :y
My own children, even my dear wife, try to boss me around, and tell me I must not leave the house for 90 days. What a grim prospect! I might as well be on a cruise ship. Son Ben, who runs his business in my house so comes here every day, orders me not to go to Tesco's lest I catch coronavirus, infect him, thereby infecting his wife. Yet he goes to Tesco's every day.
Is there any way I can order parts like those seals online?
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If you can get the part numbers, give autovaux a call. I've always had good service from them.
They supplied the crankshaft sensor for my Desmond that more or less everyone on here told me can only ever be bought from a VX dealer or it would be fake and the sky would fall. Mine came in a VX branded bag and has so far lasted about 4yrs and 45k. 8)
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If you can get the part numbers, give autovaux a call. I've always had good service from them.
They supplied the crankshaft sensor for my Desmond that more or less everyone on here told me can only ever be bought from a VX dealer or it would be fake and the sky would fall. Mine came in a VX branded bag and has so far lasted about 4yrs and 45k. 8)
Is there an online version of the Vectra parts list I can access? There must be one!
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/rmpfqjyjc3n862d/DN08-Orings.jpg?dl=1)
No-one could tell me how to acess a Vx parts list, so I went my local dealer, ordered the sealing rings, and they arrived today, see above. I note the tunnel end ring has been replaced by an 'O' ring, while the thermostat end ring remains rectangular.
I should like to pressure test the system before I replace the exhaust manifold. How do I do this? I have a spare header tank cap.
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How many of each should you have? The O ring may well fit at the back of the water pump or gearbox end of the engine rather than in the centre fitting :-\
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Great to hear you now have the correct parts to fix the leak,so best of luck getting it all back together.
You need to create a means to pump air into the coolant system to around 12/14 psi.Most tend to fit a tyre valve to a coolant cap and then use a pump to add air to the system to check for the leak.In the maintenance guide there is a" how to " but not being a computer savy I cant do a link ,sorry.
I have before just removed 1 of the coolant pipes to the throttle body and pushed in a valve secured with a jubilee clip to make airtight then applied pressure from a hand pump...really any way of getting air under pressure into the coolant space will work but dont exceed 12/14psi.
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Great to hear you now have the correct parts to fix the leak,so best of luck getting it all back together.
You need to create a means to pump air into the coolant system to around 12/14 psi.Most tend to fit a tyre valve to a coolant cap and then use a pump to add air to the system to check for the leak.In the maintenance guide there is a" how to " but not being a computer savy I cant do a link ,sorry.
I have before just removed 1 of the coolant pipes to the throttle body and pushed in a valve secured with a jubilee clip to make airtight then applied pressure from a hand pump...really any way of getting air under pressure into the coolant space will work but dont exceed 12/14psi.
As high as that? I feared that might blow off or burst a hose. The old metal caps had a blow off pressure stamped upon them, but the yellow plastic caps on the Vectra and Astra are less helpful. The top is labelled
ACHTUNG!
HEISS LNGSAM OFFNEN
small blob
picture of radiator low of coolant
WARNING!
NEVER OPEN HOT
and around the rubber seal on the bottom is written
87153850 PA66.0F 30< GM '9292 followed by oo with vv beneath'
all of which means nothing to me.
The old metal caps were stamped around 5 PSI I recall, which I could arrange by hanging a funnel full of coolant high in the garage roof. 14 PSI is nearly atmospheric pressure of 15 PSI, a head of 32 feet of water or 30 inches of mercury.
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Read page 6 of our maintenance guide...line #7 tells you all you need to know.
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Read page 6 of our maintenance guide...line #7 tells you all you need to know.
Thanks. I did not expect to find a maintenance guide on pressure testing. In fact the earlier Razzle guide is more useful, as I am working on a Vectra, not a V6 Omega.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/00cg3yrxoajibpw/DN08oilCOOLER.jpg?dl=1)
The manager at my local Vx dealer knows his stuff, and could tell me that the mysterious item behind the tunnel is the oil cooler.
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How many of each should you have? The O ring may well fit at the back of the water pump or gearbox end of the engine rather than in the centre fitting :-\
Interesting thought, Doc. I did not stand close to the man or the screen on strict orders from SWMBO and son Ben, so cannot confirm that he ordered the right parts. I took in the pipe, so he was in no doubt what parts I wanted. As said above, he seemed to know his business, he is an older man (60s), said he knew the parts required, even thought he might have them in stock, but found he had not, so got then from a main dealer in Trowbridge. In the morning I will measure them up, and see if they can be expected to do the job.
Cost was £3.36.
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I have before just removed 1 of the coolant pipes to the throttle body and pushed in a valve secured with a jubilee clip to make airtight then applied pressure from a hand pump...really any way of getting air under pressure into the coolant space will work but dont exceed 12/14psi.
As high as that? I feared that might blow off or burst a hose. The old metal caps had a blow off pressure stamped upon them, but the yellow plastic caps on the Vectra and Astra are less helpful.
The old metal caps were stamped around 5 PSI I recall, which I could arrange by hanging a funnel full of coolant high in the garage roof. 14 PSI is nearly atmospheric pressure of 15 PSI, a head of 32 feet of water or 30 inches of mercury.
all the cooling systems I've worked on run at about 1bar - about 14psi for those stuck in the 19th century -, which includes several cars designed(and a couple built) in the fifties.
Drill a hole in your 'radiator' cap to fit an entire tyre valve, fit the valve into the hole in the same way it fits a wheel, and seal it with your favourite flexible gunge. Pressurise the system with a manual pump; a bike pump will work well. Check for leaks by listening, and spraying suspect areas with soapy water. When you've fixed all the leaks, fit a new radiator cap and store the Cooling System Pressure Test Adapter Thingy(CSPTAT :y ) with all your other car junk. A battered cardboard box kicked under the bench is the traditional way.
You can test radiators off the car by cutting a mountain bike inner tub cut opposite the valve, and clamping it to the radiator stubs with hose clamps
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I have before just removed 1 of the coolant pipes to the throttle body and pushed in a valve secured with a jubilee clip to make airtight then applied pressure from a hand pump...really any way of getting air under pressure into the coolant space will work but dont exceed 12/14psi.
As high as that? I feared that might blow off or burst a hose. The old metal caps had a blow off pressure stamped upon them, but the yellow plastic caps on the Vectra and Astra are less helpful.
The old metal caps were stamped around 5 PSI I recall, which I could arrange by hanging a funnel full of coolant high in the garage roof. 14 PSI is nearly atmospheric pressure of 15 PSI, a head of 32 feet of water or 30 inches of mercury.
all the cooling systems I've worked on run at about 1bar - about 14psi for those stuck in the 19th century -, which includes several cars designed(and a couple built) in the fifties.
Drill a hole in your 'radiator' cap to fit an entire tyre valve, fit the valve into the hole in the same way it fits a wheel, and seal it with your favourite flexible gunge. Pressurise the system with a manual pump; a bike pump will work well. Check for leaks by listening, and spraying suspect areas with soapy water. When you've fixed all the leaks, fit a new radiator cap and store the Cooling System Pressure Test Adapter Thingy(CSPTAT :y ) with all your other car junk. A battered cardboard box kicked under the bench is the traditional way.
You can test radiators off the car by cutting a mountain bike inner tub cut opposite the valve, and clamping it to the radiator stubs with hose clamps
Thank you. That's the way Razzle did it in his guide, but your post goes further.
You are right, after 20 years I have so much Senator and Omega junk lying around that it is hard to find anything.
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As I suggested 4 posts earlier and directing you to the guide.It does work but 12/14psi no more
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I have before just removed 1 of the coolant pipes to the throttle body and pushed in a valve secured with a jubilee clip to make airtight then applied pressure from a hand pump...really any way of getting air under pressure into the coolant space will work but dont exceed 12/14psi.
As high as that? I feared that might blow off or burst a hose. The old metal caps had a blow off pressure stamped upon them, but the yellow plastic caps on the Vectra and Astra are less helpful.
The old metal caps were stamped around 5 PSI I recall, which I could arrange by hanging a funnel full of coolant high in the garage roof. 14 PSI is nearly atmospheric pressure of 15 PSI, a head of 32 feet of water or 30 inches of mercury.
all the cooling systems I've worked on run at about 1bar - about 14psi for those stuck in the 19th century -, which includes several cars designed(and a couple built) in the fifties.
Drill a hole in your 'radiator' cap to fit an entire tyre valve, fit the valve into the hole in the same way it fits a wheel, and seal it with your favourite flexible gunge. Pressurise the system with a manual pump; a bike pump will work well. Check for leaks by listening, and spraying suspect areas with soapy water. When you've fixed all the leaks, fit a new radiator cap and store the Cooling System Pressure Test Adapter Thingy(CSPTAT :y ) with all your other car junk. A battered cardboard box kicked under the bench is the traditional way.
You can test radiators off the car by cutting a mountain bike inner tub cut opposite the valve, and clamping it to the radiator stubs with hose clamps
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/q6tczzifbbi6rq8/DN08radiatorCAP.jpg?dl=1)
Thanks Nick. Your scheme works fine on an Omega, but not on a Vectra, where the cap seal to tank is an 'O'ring seal. The Omega blow off valve blows into the cap and down the thread grooves, whereas the Vectra cap blows off into a middle section and thence out of the overflow pipe.
My plan now is basically Amba's; remove a coolant hose to the header tank, replace it with a tyre inflator hose, and pressurise it. If I use too much pressure, the cap will release it.
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If the cap fits... ::)
No pun intended.
After all, you're testing the system for leaks, not the cap :-X
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/sixuau466trwvh7/DN08thermostatTOPhosePIPE.jopg.JPG?dl=1)
New leak, junction of thermostat housing and pipe to throttle. I removed the pipe from the thermostat housing, I don't recall breaking it, but I may have. It is attached to the thermostat housing by a plastic clip. I see no 'O' ring to seal the joint, and it leaks. Should the 'O' ring be be at the top between the pipe and the housing top, or at the bottom of the tunnel in the thermostat housing? Or maybe it was on the missing pipe end?
I may need a new pipe. I have a spare thermostat housing. Would black sealant do the job, while I get a new pipe?
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That's clearly broken, you can see the jagged edge hanging out of the piece in your hand...
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That's clearly broken, you can see the jagged edge hanging out of the piece in your hand...
Agreed.
We have just had a family row about coronavirus exposure. Emma, mother of 5 year old Tom, has irritable bowel syndrome, and is having an infusion of immunosuppressive medication next Wednesday. She and her husband wish us to look after Tom next week. To avoid risk of infection they insist Tricia (SWMBO) and I do not leave the house for the next nine days. Daft I call it. I volunteered to go to Tesco's at at quiet time, wear a hat, mask and gloves, buy groceries, return home, leave shopping outside, strip, enter the house, shower, dress in new clothes. Wait 48 hours, then bring in food and clothes.No good, they said, too risky.
So I cannot go out and order a new pipe.
I need a new pipe anyway. I reckon if I clean up the pipe and the tunnel in the thermostat housing, then coat well in black sealant, replace the pipe, and leave to set, I have a good chance of making a seal; and if it leaks I have lost nothing, I have to buy a new pipe anyway.
What do you think?
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Bloody hell Terry, what a convoluted life you lead. ;D
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That's clearly broken, you can see the jagged edge hanging out of the piece in your hand...
Agreed.
We have just had a family row about coronavirus exposure. Emma, mother of 5 year old Tom, has irritable bowel syndrome, and is having an infusion of immunosuppressive medication next Wednesday. She and her husband wish us to look after Tom next week. To avoid risk of infection they insist Tricia (SWMBO) and I do not leave the house for the next nine days. Daft I call it. I volunteered to go to Tesco's at at quiet time, wear a hat, mask and gloves, buy groceries, return home, leave shopping outside, strip, enter the house, shower, dress in new clothes. Wait 48 hours, then bring in food and clothes.No good, they said, too risky.
So I cannot go out and order a new pipe.
I need a new pipe anyway. I reckon if I clean up the pipe and the tunnel in the thermostat housing, then coat well in black sealant, replace the pipe, and leave to set, I have a good chance of making a seal; and if it leaks I have lost nothing, I have to buy a new pipe anyway.
What do you think?
Dear me, Terry, your kids lead you a merry dance, don't they? Tell them you will be going to Tesco and, if that doesn't suit them, they should find another babysitter.
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Given that you have one broken part and a spare for the other, if you are going to do a temporary bodge, I would use a two-part epoxy to bond the two together (carefully such that you don't obstruct the coolant flow in the pipe), let it go off, then put a second coat over the outside. of both parts.
I cannot imagine that the black gunk (if its the stuff I'm thinking of) will hold against any kind of pressure.
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Tesco don't sell parts for late model vectra C anyway Terry :y
so you may as well stop in , silicone up the seal and see if it lasts 9 days of in house testing ;D
no point in putting anyone ,including your good self ,at risk ;)
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You note there is still a short length of pipe remaining, and I still have the clip, flimsy plastic thing. I had in mind applying Vx black sealant, reinserting pipe, putting on clip, letting sealant cure, then testing. Viral Jim suggests epoxying the joint, leaving to cure, then applying more epoxy. Dave the builder suggests silicone - sealant, like bathroom sealant, Dave?
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There's always e-bay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-VAUXHALL-ASTRA-ZAFIRA-ETC-1-8-THERMOSTAT-TO-THROTTLE-BODY-HOSE-25192905/302375120017?epid=2229510200&hash=item4666f62c91:g:v3AAAOSwgv5ZXftJ
This looks a bit long. My donor Astra1.6 looks different too.
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You note there is still a short length of pipe remaining, and I still have the clip, flimsy plastic thing. I had in mind applying Vx black sealant, reinserting pipe, putting on clip, letting sealant cure, then testing. Viral Jim suggests epoxying the joint, leaving to cure, then applying more epoxy. Dave the builder suggests silicone - sealant, like bathroom sealant, Dave?
not all epoxy is waterproof ,so check :y
cured silicone(even sanitary or bathroom) forms a good seal , but parts must be oil free,brake or carb cleaner does a good job without residue
wipe clean with toilet roll
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I think that someone didn't see the official memo regarding not palming kids onto grandparents. Entitled is another word that springs to mind :-X
Just order a new pipe, the epoxy won't hold. Pop in to VX on the way to Tescos ;)
Incidentally, you will need both the pipe and where it connects (thermostat housing?)
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Yes Terry, THEY should be looking after YOU, NOT the other way round. ::) Sorry about the caps. ;)
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My trouble is SWMBO must be obeyed. Thanks to all for sympathy.
My original plan was black sealant and the plastic clip. A new pipe would be ideal, challenge is getting one without going out. e-bay would be ideal.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/uqs5z38gyo6prcn/DN08pipeTHERMOSTATtoTHROTTLE.JPG?dl=1)
Above looks too long.
Hard to photograph. Pipe leaves thermostat holder right of plug cover, and joins the throttle above the yellow oil filler.
Yes, I know I am making a meal of this job, never mind, the original leak looks cured now, and I have bought a better car since this problem began. Car under repair is a 2008 Astra 1.8 petrol manual hatchback, part needed is the pipe from throttle to thermostat holder, new clip as well. I have a spare thermostat holder, though I cannot see why I should change it at the moment.
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There's always e-bay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-VAUXHALL-ASTRA-ZAFIRA-ETC-1-8-THERMOSTAT-TO-THROTTLE-BODY-HOSE-25192905/302375120017?epid=2229510200&hash=item4666f62c91:g:v3AAAOSwgv5ZXftJ
This looks a bit long. My donor Astra1.6 looks different too.
It's the wrong part for a different engine ::)
Your car definitely won't have the A18xe/B18xe engine.
You need to change the housing too as the broken part was part of it. Absolutely zero point trying to save effort by not replacing related brittle plastic parts... Just ask any BMW owner.
Also, like the Astra, it's not rocket science...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-guidance-on-social-distancing-and-for-vulnerable-people/guidance-on-social-distancing-for-everyone-in-the-uk-and-protecting-older-people-and-vulnerable-adults
;)
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Thanks again for all the advice. I have three sons, one local, one at Chippenham, one in London. All have offered to help, so Jonny from Chippenham is coming tomorrow, to stock us up for a three week siege. The world has gone mad..
I have in stock Loctite SI5980 black silicone 250 degrees intermittent, Loctite SI5990 copper silicone 250 degrees 350 intermittent, and Vx black compound glueing sealant. I also have several epoxy twin pack adhesives, and domestic plumbing sealer.I reckon any of these would do the job, with the plastic clip to hold thing together. I am nervous of the epoxy adhesives, I have known them soften under heat, though max temp will be about 110degrees in this application.
Please advise.
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There's always e-bay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-VAUXHALL-ASTRA-ZAFIRA-ETC-1-8-THERMOSTAT-TO-THROTTLE-BODY-HOSE-25192905/302375120017?epid=2229510200&hash=item4666f62c91:g:v3AAAOSwgv5ZXftJ
This looks a bit long. My donor Astra1.6 looks different too.
It's the wrong part for a different engine ::)
Your car definitely won't have the A18xe/B18xe engine.
You need to change the housing too as the broken part was part of it.Why is the Absolutely zero point trying to save effort by not replacing related brittle plastic parts... Just ask any BMW owner.
Also, like the Astra, it's not rocket science...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-guidance-on-social-distancing-and-for-vulnerable-people/guidance-on-social-distancing-for-everyone-in-the-uk-and-protecting-older-people-and-vulnerable-adults
;)
Why is the housing faulty, Doc?
Thsi whole pantomime began as a change of thermostat and housing to cure water leak ready for the MOT test, due April 14th, but now postponed till October.
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Firstly, good luck buying three days of anything, let alone three weeks... :o
Glueing temperature degraded second hand broken plastic together won't work without some serious preparation. By which time you will be better off replacing with new. And even if you do bodge it together it won't hold for long. It broke in the first place because it's a weak spot.
Also, if that obviously broken piece isn't attached to the spigot, then it's in the housing, and it broke in there for a reason.
No offence, but you're old enough and bright enough to know better ;)
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Firstly, good luck buying three days of anything, let alone three weeks... :o
Glueing temperature degraded second hand broken plastic together won't work without some serious preparation. By which time you will be better off replacing with new. And even if you do bodge it together it won't hold for long. It broke in the first place because it's a weak spot.
Also, if that obviously broken piece isn't attached to the spigot, then it's in the housing, and it broke in there for a reason.
No offence, but you're old enough and bright enough to know better ;)
Right again, Doc. Here it is.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnvimdqutkecosz/DN08oldTHERMOSTATbody.jpg?dl=1)
Now all is clear. Like the Omega thermostat, the 'O'ring is in the pipe, easy to pop in on assembly, but harder to remove 10 years later. I changed the thermostat holder recently, struggled to remove the pipe, suddenly got it off, but being plastic it had broken.
Cure is now obvious, new pipe. As you said. I wonder if any dealer delivers?
On a happier note, last night SWMBO sent Jonny a list of groceries required. This morning 9am he turned up in his 175K mile Astra with them all, purchased today at Sainsburys Chippenham and Tesco Midsomer Norton. What a hero!
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That's progress :y
With son, not with car ;D
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Jonny told us that Tesco now has queues outside, 2 metres apart, only admit customers as others leave, and a one way system inside. Good for them.
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Glueing temperature degraded second hand broken plastic together won't work without some serious preparation. By which time you will be better off replacing with new. And even if you do bodge it together it won't hold for long. It broke in the first place because it's a weak spot.
Also, if that obviously broken piece isn't attached to the spigot, then it's in the housing, and it broke in there for a reason.
No offence, but you're old enough and bright enough to know better ;)
All of that.
Plus, sealant isn't intended to join parts, you need an adhesive. Two part epoxy is the thing, but you'll probably want to pick one based on its specifications rather than pretty packaging in Poundland.
Gluing broken 12 year-old plastic coolant parts together is a will it last long enough to get a new part measure.
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Jonny told us that Tesco now has queues outside, 2 metres apart, only admit customers as others leave, and a one way system inside. Good for them.
Yes, it's working well at most supermarkets around here. People with trolleys, 2 metres apart......standing in the sunshine. It's gonna rain next week ::)
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Jonny told us that Tesco now has queues outside, 2 metres apart, only admit customers as others leave, and a one way system inside. Good for them.
Yes, it's working well at most supermarkets around here. People with trolleys, 2 metres apart......standing in the sunshine. It's gonna rain next week ::)
indeed , people could catch a cold or flu
stock up on tissue & bog roll this week ,just in case you do :y
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Well the turn in the weather should now stop the idiots going out to "mingle"
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Well the turn in the weather should now stop the idiots going out to "mingle"
you can't cure stupid
some will still be out :(
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I expect so
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Glueing temperature degraded second hand broken plastic together won't work without some serious preparation. By which time you will be better off replacing with new. And even if you do bodge it together it won't hold for long. It broke in the first place because it's a weak spot.
Also, if that obviously broken piece isn't attached to the spigot, then it's in the housing, and it broke in there for a reason.
No offence, but you're old enough and bright enough to know better ;)
All of that.
Plus, sealant isn't intended to join parts, you need an adhesive. Two part epoxy is the thing, but you'll probably want to pick one based on its specifications rather than pretty packaging in Poundland.
Gluing broken 12 year-old plastic coolant parts together is a will it last long enough to get a new part measure.
Thanks to all for advice. My two local main dealers who stock and might deliver spares, Drive Vauxhall Bristol and Platinum Vauxhall Trowbridge, are closed until further notice. Is there any online way of buying that pipe?
I don't need the car at the moment, as my Omega MOT has been extended for 6 months. Coronavirus patients over 60 are not put on ventilators, and over 75s are not even admitted to hospital, so my obvious course is to SORN the car and forget it.
I managed to remove the end of that pipe stuck in the thermostat housing, found no 'O' ring on it, puzzling. I now have nothing to lose attempting an epoxy repair, it might last longer than I do.
You recommend thoroughly cleaning both parts with carb cleaner or brake cleaner, I find I have both. Should I roughen both surfaces to give better keying of the adhesive? I find I have Araldite Standard (ultra strong), Araldite Rapid (5 minutes), and Ever Build Stick 2 Rapid Epoxy Syringe Adhesive. Obvious choice is the Standard. Please advise.
As I type this SWMBO is crawling round the floor playing with grandson, his father is upstairs running his online business and his mother is in hospital having an infusion for her colitis. Surreal, ain't it?
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It certainly is!
I would go through the prep as you suggest, (I'd go carb cleaner fwiw). Then I would epoxy the 2 parts of the broken pipe together, let it all go off, then rub down the outside and epoxy that whole repaired piece into the thermostat housing, making sure its all orientated correctly obviously.
BUT
All those epoxy glues you mentioned have a maximum working temperature of 65-70 degrees e.g. Araldite standard https://www.go-araldite.com/products/epoxy-adhesives/araldite-standard-2-x-15ml-tube (https://www.go-araldite.com/products/epoxy-adhesives/araldite-standard-2-x-15ml-tube). I don't know if they go soft after that temperature, or break up and fail, but either way you need something better.
I'd go for something like Loctite Hysol 9492, if you look at the technical data sheet, it seems to be good for 125 degrees and has tested strengths in an unleaded petrol and glycol environments up to 3000hrs. So clearly automotive use was foreseen by the manufacturer when the product was designed. Unlike the araldite or everbuild stuff you have on hand. :y
https://www.rapidonline.com/Loctite-2052215-EA-9492-A-B-2-1-Dual-Cartridge-50ml-87-7267?IncVat=1&pdg=pla-336984116576:kwd-336984116576:cmp-757438067:adg-98613163406:crv-428566073244:pid-87-7267:dev-c&gclid=CjwKCAjw95D0BRBFEiwAcO1KDHFUtbHDN_CT0hQfh9r_z8-fxx2Dg7ow73BKd3ojJDArxsmYp6z8QhoCvPIQAvD_BwE (https://www.rapidonline.com/Loctite-2052215-EA-9492-A-B-2-1-Dual-Cartridge-50ml-87-7267?IncVat=1&pdg=pla-336984116576:kwd-336984116576:cmp-757438067:adg-98613163406:crv-428566073244:pid-87-7267:dev-c&gclid=CjwKCAjw95D0BRBFEiwAcO1KDHFUtbHDN_CT0hQfh9r_z8-fxx2Dg7ow73BKd3ojJDArxsmYp6z8QhoCvPIQAvD_BwE)
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Thanks, good advice. Yes, I have used high strength Standard Araldite in automotive applications only to have it fail. One example I recall was on a headlight height adjuster, not a high temperature situation, but I did discover on testing that it went soft. Loctite 9492 sounds good.
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Headlights get hot in use ::)
Any magic goo you use needs to meet two criteria...
1. The chemical structure of the item being glued.
2. Environmental considerations. Not limited to, temperature, temperature variation, chemical resistance, resistance to vibration.
Failure to understand or appreciate either point is why 99.99% of such DIY repairs fail. Sleeving the repair may help improve its odds, but don't expect miracles.
Basically, as you cannot possibly establish what material the pipe was made from and how 13/14 years or use/abuse/degradation has done to it, and therefore have zero chance of finding the correct magic goo to repair it.
Not trying to poopoo the idea, but if you don't need it, then I would simply park it up until such time as you can get the new parts to fix it.
If I was at work, then I would probably be able to obtain suitable goo for you to try, as there are a stupidly wide variety of goos used in the day to day maintenance of Airbuses. Unfortunately I am not, hence my best advice being not to bother... Spending time with the visiting rug rat and making sure that your will and papers are up to date ;)
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Thanks Doc. At the moment I am in lockdown, both national and family, so don't need any cars. The Omega, with extended MOT, is running well, the Vectra estate seems good, daughter's Astra and Jonny's Astra are both runing well. However daughter-in-law's Rover Streetwise failed to start this morning, so she went to hospital in Ben's Astra, and Ben and Tom walked here.
I drove to Ben's place, jump started the Streetwise, checked the voltage, engine running - 14.4 volts - , so drove it home, changed the battery, and returned it.
Then Ben mentioned that the ABS light on his 2006 Astra 1.6 manual was on intermittently. Probably ECU, I told him, but could be split sensor ring or wheel sensor. Will code reader tell me? Will the ECU on my donor 2004 Astra 1.6 manual fit?
I might need that Vectra yet. Goodness knows when I can get a spare coolant pipe.
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An intermittent abs light is not a concern given the amount of use that should be going on. ::)
If the mot 'extension' is good for the Omega, it's good for the Astra :-X
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Then Ben mentioned that the ABS light on his 2006 Astra 1.6 manual was on intermittently. Probably ECU, I told him, but could be split sensor ring or wheel sensor. Will code reader tell me? Will the ECU on my donor 2004 Astra 1.6 manual fit?
I might need that Vectra yet. Goodness knows when I can get a spare coolant pipe.
Read the codes, unlikely to be the ECU :y
The only issue the ABS ECUs on Astra/Zaf etc of that era had was on the versions with stability control, the fluid pressure sensor in the Teves 60 units suffers from a bond wire fracture and throws up both the ABS and ESP lights. Not many Astras/Zafs had ESP and it gives a different symptom to that which you describe. :y :y