Topic: Erratic 2.2 (Read 4520 times)

ChrisPee · « **on:** 23 December 2022, 23:16:12 »

Hi people, I have double trouble and hope i can at least fix one of my pair.
Both are 02 2.2 CDX auto saloons, and both are MOTd, the first issue may be obvious - car 1 is losing water and the header tank is pressurising, the heater works and the oil is fine, it also loses water at the rate of about 2 litres a week.
Car 2 - it has been a nightmare to start - firing & dying, firing and running on 3, then after about 10 mins it springs into normal life. I MOTd it Wednesday and on the way home it started revving erratically from tick over to 2000rpm on a cycle of about 2 seconds. I'm doing a test on car 1 tomorrow for gases in the expansion. Both cars have had long-term engine management lights on too.

Please help oh mighty gurus.

TheBoy · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 December 2022, 15:39:05 »

Firstnthing is to find out why the ECU is grumpy enough to pull EML on....

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #2 on:** 25 December 2022, 01:08:46 »

You have much more chance of the HBV failing than the head gasket.

Set the climate panel temperatures on both sides to LO and monitor the loss.

cam.in.head · « **Reply #3 on:** 25 December 2022, 09:55:38 »

hbv very likely ,only thing i would be catious of is you say its pressurising the header tank. this wouldnt happen theoretically if you have a leak BUT it could cause the water level to rise and give the impression that its pressurising ?
need yo do ehat others have suggested.
check codes and thoroughly check hbv .
thig is ,none of these could cause an erratic idld thou ?

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #4 on:** 25 December 2022, 13:42:16 »

Quote from: cam.in.head on 25 December 2022, 09:55:38

hbv very likely ,only thing i would be catious of is you say its pressurising the header tank. this wouldnt happen theoretically if you have a leak BUT it could cause the water level to rise and give the impression that its pressurising ?
need yo do ehat others have suggested.
check codes and thoroughly check hbv .
thig is ,none of these could cause an erratic idld thou ?

True, but one issue at a time...

If the codes show a misfire then the chances are the plug wells are full of oil which points directly to blocked breathers. On the four pots this in turn means the throttle body breathers are also gunged up which WILL cause poor idling

ChrisPee · « **Reply #5 on:** 01 January 2023, 17:13:57 »

Sorry for the late reply, been at work every day up till yesterday.
I may have confused things here:
The car that is pressurising has oil in the plug channels - I blew them out and fitted new GM plugs. This car has had EM light on for about a year, but the water-loss issue started a few months ago. The 2nd car with the erratic revving also has plugs under oil, it hasn't been used for a year and only started once a month or so. Waiting on new plugs and I have a 2nd rocker cover gasket for this one too. What is a HBV? ☺

Migalot · « **Reply #6 on:** 01 January 2023, 17:23:31 »

Quote from: ChrisPee on 01 January 2023, 17:13:57

Sorry for the late reply, been at work every day up till yesterday.
I may have confused things here:
The car that is pressurising has oil in the plug channels - I blew them out and fitted new GM plugs. This car has had EM light on for about a year, but the water-loss issue started a few months ago. The 2nd car with the erratic revving also has plugs under oil, it hasn't been used for a year and only started once a month or so. Waiting on new plugs and I have a 2nd rocker cover gasket for this one too. What is a HBV? ☺

HBV is heater bypass valve

What has proved very useful for me is this £19.49 code reader from euro car parts:

https://www.eurocarparts.com/p/streetwize-obdii-code-reader-for-android-and-ios-553999810

The software to buy is from https://scanmyopel.com/ (the EUR 9.99 option is best, so you can get live data). Download it to your phone and you'll get to the bottom of the management light issues straightaway. Best £30-odd you'll spend!

If you look at the next post down on Lambda issues, you can see the output!

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #7 on:** 01 January 2023, 17:31:02 »

Heater bypass valve. It fails often enough to be considered a service item.

Sounds like both cars require cam cover gaskets and a proper breather clean.

You have more chance of a stranger paying off your mortgage than it being a headgasket.

And if the light is on, then there's a fault, probably misfire codes or cat codes.

ChrisPee · « **Reply #8 on:** 01 January 2023, 18:02:04 »

Dr G, your wisdom is my gain master, the head gasket issue was worrying me. I think I'll give them both a really good going over. The silver car was my dads who passed away in 2014 and the black car was my mums who I lost in 2020. I couldn't bring myself to part with either, and although I know they're not exactly valuable, but I'm a big Vauxhall fan - having Victors, VX 4/90s and a Carlton as well.

ChrisPee · « **Reply #9 on:** 01 January 2023, 18:10:20 »

One other thing, I dont think I'm allowed to post in the for sale / wanted section, but some kind person had smashed the body of the passenger side wing mirror on the silver car. If by any chance someone has one for sale I would be very grateful, it's actually only the coloured part that is broken. Hope this is okay to post?

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #10 on:** 01 January 2023, 18:12:12 »

Quote from: ChrisPee on 01 January 2023, 18:10:20

One other thing, I dont think I'm allowed to post in the for sale / wanted section, but some kind person had smashed the body of the passenger side wing mirror on the silver car. If by any chance someone has one for sale I would be very grateful, it's actually only the coloured part that is broken. Hope this is okay to post?

If you post the above in the Test Zone and ask nicely, then one of the Admin Bods will happily move it to the Wanted Section

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #11 on:** 01 January 2023, 18:16:40 »

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195171359044

If no one has one.

ChrisPee · « **Reply #12 on:** 02 January 2023, 15:37:00 »

👍😉👍

ChrisPee · « **Reply #13 on:** 09 January 2023, 17:19:37 »

I don't suppose there are any members in north Kent that would be willing to come and have a look at my two 2.2s are there? I'm losing the will to live with them but really don't want to give up on them. Thanks - Chris 😘

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #14 on:** 09 January 2023, 18:24:45 »

Nick W is in that part of the world.

Otherwise I may be able to assist, but you'll need to bring them here.

Nick W · « **Reply #15 on:** 09 January 2023, 18:46:45 »

Where in Kent are you?

The codes need to be read before making any decisions.

Oil in the plug wells doesn't do the plugs or coils any good.

Your erratic idle on a car that's been standing is probably an air or vacuum leak related to the cam cover gaskets.

A sniffer test in the cooling system should help rule out HG failure diagnosis.

HBV is a simple job on a 2.2 when compared to a V6.

If it is just the coloured part of the mirror, that is replaceable separately(I take them off to paint them) although it is a bit fiddly. It's worth popping the glass off the motor to be sure though!

ChrisPee · « **Reply #16 on:** 09 January 2023, 20:14:17 »

Hi Nick, I'm in Higham nearish to Dartford. I'm happy to pay someone for their time, I really just want a more knowledgeable opinion. I changed the plugs in both cars (fitted factory GM ones) I have one rocker cover gasket. They were both under a few mm of oil too. Yesterday I took the black car out, it drove fine to the petrol station (10 miles away) then after a short stop it began missing and cutting out completely. I restarted it several times then had to abandon it for the day. When I returned expecting it to be the same, it started first time and drove the 10+ miles home without a single stutter.

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #17 on:** 09 January 2023, 23:43:48 »

Failing fuel pump or relay perhaps to do that.

Refitting new plugs into oil is a waste of time and plugs.

ChrisPee · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 January 2023, 10:23:37 »

I drained all the oil out first

I'm going to check all breather pipes and fit a new rubber gasket seal Saturday. I haven't really driven them far yet.

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 January 2023, 11:30:01 »

Quote from: ChrisPee on 10 January 2023, 10:23:37

I drained all the oil out first
I'm going to check all breather pipes and fit a new rubber gasket seal Saturday. I haven't really driven them far yet.

In order to correctly diagnose the misfire, the camcover and breathers need doing first.

Breathers start with the pipe running up from the sump, and run through the cam cover to the throttle body.

All three need removing and cleaning thoroughly.

ChrisPee · « **Reply #20 on:** 12 January 2023, 14:03:28 »

Thank you Dr G, I've replaced one small breather on the left of the rocker cover - i found it was collapsed and turned to liquorice! I'm doing the rocker cover gaskets on both cars Saturday, so I'll do all the breather pipes too 😉

I've bough a new fuel relay, fuel pump and a lucas coil pack in case any of those are faulty on one of the cars.

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #21 on:** 12 January 2023, 14:30:17 »

On the left as in passenger side next to the dipstick or smaller one from the camcover to the throttle body?

ChrisPee · « **Reply #22 on:** 15 January 2023, 15:32:01 »

Well, all bad news so far. On the silver car with the erratic revving, the crank breather was blocked so badly I had to chisel the carbon out. I tried a new fuel pump relay just out of interest - no different. I have a new fuel pump to try next.

Ban news on the black car losing water and pressurising - water in the oil now at dipstick, it was fine when I checked before Christmas.

Not sure where to go with these two now, they're both MOTd and the black one is in very nice condition.

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #23 on:** 15 January 2023, 15:37:51 »

Quote from: ChrisPee on 15 January 2023, 15:32:01

Well, all bad news so far. On the silver car with the erratic revving, the crank breather was blocked so badly I had to chisel the carbon out. I tried a new fuel pump relay just out of interest - no different. I have a new fuel pump to try next.

Ban news on the black car losing water and pressurising - water in the oil now at dipstick, it was fine when I checked before Christmas.

Not sure where to go with these two now, they're both MOTd and the black one is in very nice condition.

Stop clutching at straws.

Blocked breather car needs cleaning from the bottom of the sump breather pipe all the way through to the throttle body along with new camcover gasket and plugs. If it still misfires after that, then it needs a coil pack and consider it fixed.

The water on the dipstick may simply be condensation, especially if you haven't driven it much. Although I will concede that this is less likely.

Replacing the headgasket will be significantly cheaper than replacing the car.

Nick W · « **Reply #24 on:** 15 January 2023, 18:37:59 »

Fuel pump and relay are a waste of time, let alone money. Inspecting the fuel tank and its contents would be a good idea though.

Some proper diagnosis is required. Or any sort, instead of just guessing.

The water leak is bad and should be easy to find, although fixing it will probably be expensive.

The erratic idle etc is the place to start: read the codes, fix the oil leak and inspect the entire ignition, breather and inlet systems. You'll have to dismantle parts of them to deal with the oil leak so that's really all one job of deferred maintenance..

ChrisPee · « **Reply #25 on:** 16 January 2023, 11:33:48 »

Apologies to all helpers if I'm frustrating everyone, I know it's not an excuse, but I'm only used to 60s 70s cars, when it comes to faults it's usually an easy fix with points caps, carbs etc. I'm not trying to cut any corners, I just thought I'd be prepared with parts before I started. I have been using the black car almost daily for over a year and I'm always one for keeping on top of servicing and quality oil changes every 4 or 5k. I've only been an Omega owner for less that 2 years and I've rarely had any issues. I'm waiting on a quote for the head gasket, I dipped the oil several times and it's definitely emulsified. Thanks again all

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #26 on:** 16 January 2023, 11:53:41 »

Modern fuel injection systems work in a similar way to a carburettor, ie apply fuelling according to air volume, but instead of being in a complex case, are largely electrical and scattered along the intake tract... They still measure intake air volume and apply fuel accordingly.

The four cylinder cars are prone to breather blockages which affects the idle because the throttle plate is closed and it relies on the breather passages to get enough air to run smoothly. Not to mention the associated oil leaks that result and disrupt spark generation.

The rest of the engine is fundamentally the same as it ever was with a couple of quirks and features that apply to any given model.

I know on the V6 that oil cooler failure usually results in oil in the coolant, but not the other way around. I wonder if this applies equally to the four cylinder cars as the cooler is arranged very differently...

cam.in.head · « **Reply #27 on:** 16 January 2023, 14:57:55 »

as mentioned above please dont despair and just stand back and look at each car logically. dont necessarily condem the headgasket yet either at this stage, water droplets and salad cream in the filler cap and on the dipstick dont nesessarlily mean head gasket failure. as stated conndensation takes a while to clear especially this time of year,
if you drain the oil and its ALL gone beige and emulsified then yes maybee but i suspect you are just seeing bits on the dipstick .
obviuously gaskets can fail but your blocked breathers,leaking cam cover gaskets / oily plug wells are a first line of approach at this stage.
you think that oil would be an insulator but it brings all manner of misfires to light and can also damage a borderline coil.especially with water in it !
idealy a local member to have a look would be my suggestion NOT a garage and take it from there but if your happy doing the diagnosis and work yourself then just do it logically and in stages.
not the best time of year to work i know but you will get there.

cam.in.head · « **Reply #28 on:** 16 January 2023, 15:00:45 »

plus.
if the cars mean a lot to you ,being past family members cars then the cars cannot be replaced as such and the fixes will be worth it.its all nut and bolt stuff especially if the cars are good rust wise.
you dont want to let them go and then regret it.

ChrisPee · « **Reply #29 on:** 24 January 2023, 15:42:26 »

Hello all, I have an update on the silver car. My mate is having a look at it today and after cleaning the filthy throttle body and finding no difference in the running, but, using a small bottle of petrol he was ably to keep the car running fine. He said he found that the "Schrader" valve was not re-pressurising, so does it look like fuel filter or fuel pump to any of you chaps?
I'm stuck at home with a herniated disc, and my mate Paul is being kind enough to have a play for me.

Nick W · « **Reply #30 on:** 24 January 2023, 16:07:43 »

Now it's time to measure the fuel pressure so you're not guessing. Changing the fuel filter only ever gives you the nice warm feeling of spending some money. A faulty, or failing, pump is more likely. The relay could also be part of the problem

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #31 on:** 24 January 2023, 16:44:57 »

Not to mention the fuel pressure regulator.

Nick W · « **Reply #32 on:** 24 January 2023, 17:12:44 »

Quote from: Doctor Gollum on 24 January 2023, 16:44:57

Not to mention the fuel pressure regulator.

That's another favourite for the I don't know what it's for, or how it does it so it must be faulty school of diagnosis.

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #33 on:** 24 January 2023, 17:23:44 »

Well, it's job is to regulate fuel pressure. The best pump in the world won't hold pressure against an open pipe

But whilst we're remotely playing at fixing things...

ChrisPee · « **Reply #34 on:** 25 January 2023, 10:26:08 »

I have a new relay, pump and filter. As far as I know this car hasn't been serviced for at least 5 years - hence the fuel, air, oil filter, oil and plug pre-purchase anyway.

ChrisPee · « **Reply #35 on:** 21 February 2023, 18:32:51 »

Update, I have had a diagnostic on the car Monday and there were several fault codes - misfire cylinder 1 misfire cylinder 3, alarm, etc etc. I had already replaced plugs, rocker cover gasket, coil pack, fuel filter, fuel pump, cleaned crank breather pipe and throttle body. All fault cleared (and EM light and ABS light. Car then ran great. Started car today (instantly) then began running rough again - fault codes remaining are;

PO170-2 Lean Exhaust Not Present
P1555-0 Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) - load signal not plausible with engine load.

Can someone tell me where the TPS is please?

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #36 on:** 21 February 2023, 19:22:07 »

Built into the throttle body

Before you order a new one for the price of another Omega, you have removed it and cleaned it thoroughly as per the guide whist doing all the other work?

ChrisPee · « **Reply #37 on:** 21 February 2023, 19:37:46 »

Yes Doc, and cleared the tiny 1.5mm hole. It was very gummed and black. Where is the TPS on an Omega, because as of now I'm baffled.

dave the builder · « **Reply #38 on:** 21 February 2023, 19:48:43 »

Quote from: ChrisPee on 21 February 2023, 19:37:46

------ - - - - -. Where is the TPS on an Omega, because as of now I'm baffled.

Quote from: Doctor Gollum on 21 February 2023, 19:22:07

Built into the throttle body

Throttle Position Sensor = TPS

Doctor Gollum · « **Reply #39 on:** 21 February 2023, 19:49:10 »

It's built into the throttle body along with the motor that drives the throttle plate.

ChrisPee · « **Reply #40 on:** 22 February 2023, 10:38:00 »

Thanks Doc.

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Author Topic: Erratic 2.2 (Read 4520 times)