Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 12 March 2024, 13:21:18
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I have had about half a gallon of petrol in a can in the boot of the C1 for about 6 months.
Sunday morning before leaving work I decided to tip it in the tank. There was aready approx. a couple of gallons already in the tank.
When I left work I didnt get more than a mile or so before it started misfiring and kangarooing. Nearly didnt make it home as it cut it a couple of times and was very reluctant to restart.
Not being a great believer in coincidence I assumed the half gallon must have gone off, so filled a couple of gallon cans with fresh petrol and put that in hoping it might then sort itself out.
It hasnt had any effect at all. Still very hard to start and runs as rough as a Badgers arse.
Have plugged my code reader in and got misfire cylinder three (it only has three).
Just because its a five minute job I swapped the stick coils between 1 and 3 but the code stayed at number three.
Only thing I can think of is a problem with number three injector ?
Any more intelligent thoughts more than welcome.
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Worth checking compression first. Mum put some E10 in her Seat and it blocked the fuel filter with the same results but if you have a code for no3 then doubt its a blocked filter.
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Fuel filter would be my first choice (must cost about 60p on one of those.
Also, how long did you run it for after you put the fresh in? May not have worked it's way through yet? :-\
Edit: CW beat me to it :y
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Not even sure it has a fuel filter. Seen mention of filters in the top of the injectors. :-\
Ive ran it three or four times for five to ten minutes with no improvement.
Edit. apparently no filter that can be changed. Built into the pump in the tank.
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Going back to simple things, have you pulled/inspected/swapped the spark plugs over to see if the misfire moves?
A quick Google indicates they have an issue with oil deposits on plugs. Maybe slightly crappy fuel just tipped a minor problem over into a misfire.
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Not yet. Rain and hospital visit stopped play today. Will swap plugs tomorrow. :y
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i seem to remember there is a filter but its a strange style rather than just an inline cylinder type.
worth replacing it anyway.
how easy is it to change an injector on those. if you have already tried the coil and then a plug its the last port of call to see if the misfire stays on number 3.
after that its checking wiring ,ecu,live data etc
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Injectors look pretty easy to change, so that will probably be the next thing after swapping the plugs.
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Plugs swapped over but code remains at cylinder 3.
Now removed injctors and will attempt to rig something up so I can operate them and clean them.
Pretty sure they are 12v, so hopefully not too difficult.
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Plugs swapped over but code remains at cylinder 3.
Now removed injctors and will attempt to rig something up so I can operate them and clean them.
Pretty sure they are 12v, so hopefully not too difficult.
Looking on eBay it seems you can get a whole (used) injector rail plus three injectors for less than £50, is it worth putting the effort into running and cleaning them, vs getting a new rail and keeping the two known good injectors you have as spares?
** Linky ** (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364766957035?epid=7018108411&itmmeta=01HRW1PBRKENBX32TD93ZMF97S&hash=item54edce0deb:g:sgQAAOSwUqBisK6L&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0IfKxjuEWQpjpjjvrvm3YAgfN%2F5vcVqoRlDmxF3MMexCDs6EMdlUQ6H10vrKgNyY3FTaUKoKSDTx6RXoiyl2IyX0ODy%2F0mhjf3%2BqF9cu5%2BrM4fKSSfWWe2%2B0XL8R%2F1b3B3WThRN6c4q7EdAvV3rrGkW8fkrIM15JC84f%2B7WzwgsHpv0z%2BW5hNRhoZZpzzlR7RWIR3Wp2wUt4w0IKxuBGPQRSmjmUbufH%2BEpoCrrbmS4dwV0IhZRf1BVnf2Oy7x55uUeApDDmqEDtt%2BjvwsW3%2FOs%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9i82YHHYw)
All a question of £££ vs CBA I guess :y
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Just move the injector to test first, try not to introduce more unknowns, it might well be clogged, modern petrol injection setups don't have filters and if it was the filter, it would result in multiple misfires and would likely idle ok (when fuel demand is low), and not rev up. :y
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Or just torch it, it is a cylinder short of tolerable already ;D
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Thats just mean. ;D ;D
Just read the last few posts - but, I have taken the injectors out today. I know they are 12v so connected a couple of wires that so I could quickly touch one on/ off on a battery while blowing isopropyl down through the injectors (just mouth pressure though).
Reassembled and it ran fine for maybe 30 seconds before running rough again.
So.........buy some carb or brake cleaner and blow through them under pressure or buy a set from a breaker a half hours drive away for £30 ?
Not sure which way to go at the moment.
It could still be that theres contaminated fuel in the tank, and when that got pumped up to the injectors when they were refitted, it started running rough again.
Still getting cylinder three misfire code, so will swap injectors tomorrow to see if the code moves with them.
Should have thought of that when I had them out today. ::) :-[
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you could always add an extra inline filter in the supply line in a more accesible place but sounds like you are on the right track now
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Just went out swapped no1 and no3 injectors to see if the code followed the injector.
Started it up and it runs perfectly. Drove it for a couple of miles and its running just as it should.
No EML and no codes.
Can only assume the manky petrol has worked its way through, or now been well enough mixed with the fresh stuff. :-\
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Either that or a loose connection to an injector that you unintentionally fixed when you swapped them over.
Either way I hope it stays working for you! :y
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i hate weird issues like this but hopefully it might be solved and if it does reoccur you will see what cylinder it throws up . quite fun little cars when they are working right !
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It is indeed fun, in a slow motion kind of way. Get up to speed and dont slow down for anything is the way to drive it. :)
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It is indeed fun, in a slow motion kind of way. Get up to speed and dont slow down for anything is the way to drive it. :)
Ahhh.....straight from the YZ250 school of driving :y
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It is indeed fun, in a slow motion kind of way. Get up to speed and dont slow down for anything is the way to drive it. :)
Ahhh.....straight from the YZ250 school of driving :y
;D ;D :y
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It is indeed fun, in a slow motion kind of way. Get up to speed and dont slow down for anything is the way to drive it. :)
That's how I drive my Fortwo Smart ;D
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As James Hunt once said " Its more fun to go around a 50mph bend at 60mph, than to go around a 160mph bend at 150mph. :)
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It is indeed fun, in a slow motion kind of way. Get up to speed and dont slow down for anything is the way to drive it. :)
That's how I drive my Fortwo Smart ;D
That's how I drive everything ;D
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Curiously, this problem reappeared this morning.
Similar conditions to last time. Around a quarter of a tank of petrol, and had been stood overnight.
Within half a mile of leaving work it started misbehaving again.
I pulled into a petrol station and put £25 in and it ran perfectly after that.
I may run it down to quarter of a tank again and then drain whats left in the tank to see if that helps.
Dont know exactly what the pump setup is, but may be sucking up water or some other crap when the fuel level gets low ?
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Had a Mazda 626 years ago. The petrol filler tube that went down through the rear wheel arch rusted through. The tank was slowly letting in water, so misfiring was happening more and more as the water level in the tank rose. Just a thought for your problem.
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Fuel would sit on top of any water and the pump should pick up from the bottom of the tank. Is the tank pressurised (positively or negatively) to the extent that there's an audible noise when you undo the cap?
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Not that Ive noticed.
Maybe the fresh fuel being pumped in could disperse water, which then settles at the bottom again as fuel level goes down ? :-\
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Run the tank dry/drain and refill with Vpower. And replace the injectors...
Is the latest code still for cylinder 3 and is that by chance the first cylinder on the fuel rail :-\
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Havent checked code yet, but I expect cylinder 3 misfire, because it always is. Even when I swapped spark plug, injector and stick coil from 1 to 3.
A mechanic on another forum said that he has found that cylinder related codes on these should be taken with a pinch of salt, and can be a red herring.
Think its the last one on the rail but will need to check.
Im now also wondering if it could be a sign of fuel pump starting to fail. Not sure how to diagnose for sure though.
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Ok, fwiw I think you should look at the lift pump.
I'll bet cylinder 3 is the last on the rail, so any fuel supply deficiency will manifest there as cylinders 1 and 2 take the available fuel first.
As the fuel level drops, the lift pump has to work harder to suck the fuel out so that's when any weaknesses will show. Tbh I think the old fuel is a red herring, it would have mixed when you fill the tank and by driving around so I don't see why it would wait until there's only a 1/4 tank left before it shows an issue.
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Im leaning towards the pump too. Would like to prove it before playing parts darts, but not sure if thats reasonably possible ?
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But not sure if thats reasonably possible ?
Tbh without some equipment to bench test it (and a spec sheet to test it against) I'm not sure how you would. Assuming it is the problem it clearly it still work partially, but all the tests I can think of (flow rate etc) involve knowing what good looks like. Hard without another one on hand :-\.
Do you have any other fuel pump you could use to rig up as a temporary to test the car with?
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Havent checked code yet, but I expect cylinder 3 misfire, because it always is. Even when I swapped spark plug, injector and stick coil from 1 to 3.
A mechanic on another forum said that he has found that cylinder related codes on these should be taken with a pinch of salt, and can be a red herring.
Think its the last one on the rail but will need to check.
Im now also wondering if it could be a sign of fuel pump starting to fail. Not sure how to diagnose for sure though.
By the time you have removed it to test, you may as well put a new one in ;)
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Just a thought,.have you got a diagnostic that could read the pressure at the fuel rail? That might tell you more...
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Possibly. Will have a play with my Autel tomorrow. If I could get a reading now when its running ok, then do it again when fuel level is low and it misbehaves again, I might get a good idea if thats the prblem.
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You might find a schraeder valve on the fuel rail to connect a pressure gauge. Unless it's a GDI engine I doubt it will monitor fuel pressure.
I struggle to see why it's consistently misfiring on one cylinder if it's a fuel pressure issue, to be honest. It would affect them all (said like it's got enough of them!).
Maybe the pump is drawing air occasionally and it always gathers in the rail around one injector?
Can you look at the fuel trims using a scanner?
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Will have a look at the fuel system later and see whats involved.
Just read the codes and it was a bit of a surprise. Low Cat efficiency. ???
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Will have a look at the fuel system later and see whats involved.
Just read the codes and it was a bit of a surprise. Low Cat efficiency. ???
Does it clear?
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Yep :y
Only difference this time is that I stopped at a petrol station after 5 minutes (after which it ran fine) rather than carry on driving for miles.
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It may just be the last of the crappy fuel going through :-\
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Who knows. Fuel system looks very basic. No schraeder valve. Pipe comes from the tank to a white plastic block (some kind of valve ?) and then to the fuel rail. If number one pot is the timing chain end (not sure) then number three is the first one supplied at the fuel rail.
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Who knows. Fuel system looks very basic. No schraeder valve. Pipe comes from the tank to a white plastic block (some kind of valve ?) and then to the fuel rail. If number one pot is the timing chain end (not sure) then number three is the first one supplied at the fuel rail.
You could find out! Unhook the return pipe, drain 100ml of fuel into a clear glass jar and inspect it for dirt, water or diesel. Do that a couple of times before you make any irrecoverable decisions.
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If Injector 3 is the first to receive fuel then it makes sense that it would be the first to be affected by contamination. Swapping with another injector would temporarily resolve the issue but it will eventually return.
The cat code suggests that what's reaching the cat isn't what it's expecting to see. As you've potentially 2/3 of the injectors not performing correctly that points to either a contamination or delivery issue...
The two aren't mutually exclusive as contaminated fuel will make the pump work harder and will eventually kill a weak pump.
Run it more or less dry, drop the tank, clean the inside of it and replace the pump and pick up strainer. You could add new injectors to the list as a belts and braces solution depending on what you find in the tank.
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Who knows. Fuel system looks very basic. No schraeder valve. Pipe comes from the tank to a white plastic block (some kind of valve ?) and then to the fuel rail. If number one pot is the timing chain end (not sure) then number three is the first one supplied at the fuel rail.
You could find out! Unhook the return pipe, drain 100ml of fuel into a clear glass jar and inspect it for dirt, water or diesel. Do that a couple of times before you make any irrecoverable decisions.
There is no return pipe. ;)
Tank / pump is easily accessed under the rear seat. When its run almost dry again I will remove the pump and clean out the tank. If that doesnt fix it then I will load up the parts cannon - firstly with a pump, then take it from there. :y
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Not having to get under the car and drop the tank is a big plus :y
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Mm….. using the half a gallon of petrol you had in the first post could have been used in a far more
Efficient manner IMO👍🔥🔥
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Mm….. using the half a gallon of petrol you had in the first post could have been used in a far more
Efficient manner IMO👍🔥🔥
;D ;D indeed :y :-X
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Nah, its a great little car. Cheap as chips to run and a hoot to drive in its own way. Im hoping to keep it until I retire (hopefully) at 70. :)
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When I mentioned I had a Renault, it was French shite ::)
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When I mentioned I had a Renault, it was French shite ::)
You're forgetting that Citroens have the reputation of being properly engineered cars for connoisseurs, whereas Renaults are the French equivalent of Austins.
Of course, this is all utter 'dangle berries' mixed with an overdose of marketing wank. Also known as the Alfa-Romeo doctrine ;D
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The C1 is a Toyota Aygo with Citroen badges on. ;)
All the parts have the Toyota logo and part numbers on them.
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The C1 is a Toyota Aygo with Citroen badges on. ;)
All the parts have the Toyota logo and part numbers on them.
If that helps you feel better :D
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Still burns well enough🤣🤣🔥🔥🔥
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The C1 is a Toyota Aygo with Citroen badges on. ;)
All the parts have the Toyota logo and part numbers on them.
so it should have been called the Citroen AGRO :P
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Im hoping to keep it until I retire (hopefully) at 70. :)
Wasn't that 20yrs ago?
:P
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You can far cough. :P
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Mm….. using the half a gallon of petrol you had in the first post could have been used in a far more
Efficient manner IMO👍🔥🔥
He could rename this thread C1 (The skate) serious bonfire! ;D
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Guy i used to work with was always having spontaneous combustion issues with a fair number of his cars. :)
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If thy car offends thee……..🔥🔥🔥☄️
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The C lio offended me. This one just concerns me a little bit. :)
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STRIKE IT DOWN I TELL YOU!!⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️
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I knew this would be back >:D
There are a few clues, clearly disturbing things is impacting operation, be it a wiring harness or crud in the system.
It has to be a single item related to a system around a single pot, as otherwise it would randomly be across all pots (so you can rule out pump and the like)
Cat efficiency might be a clue, if an injector was failing you would expect ether loads of fuel, a poor spray pattern (its not direct injection so not going to make a major impact here, it will still evaporate off the back of the inlet valve), or no fuel (which the Cat would not care about), might be worth checking the sparks again
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Yep :y
Only difference this time is that I stopped at a petrol station after 5 minutes (after which it ran fine) rather than carry on driving for miles.
Bear in mind that, if it detects a misfire, it'll probably shut down the affected cylinder until the next restart.
Is it still cylinder 3 that's misfiring?
I will reiterate that I recently did a lunch hour job replacing 2 out of 3 of the coil packs in a mate's one because they were intermittently tripping a misfire code (and you really notice when you're down a pot on these)! :D
You swapped the injector before, IIRC? so if it hasn't moved it's probably the plug / coil pack or outside chance some dodgy wiring (it's French, after all), and if it has it's the injector.
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Just went out swapped no1 and no3 injectors to see if the code followed the injector.
Started it up and it runs perfectly. Drove it for a couple of miles and its running just as it should.
No EML and no codes.
Can only assume the manky petrol has worked its way through, or now been well enough mixed with the fresh stuff. :-\
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Great result 👍
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Have swapped plug, stick coil and injector between 1 and 3, but code stayed at pot 3. The most recent incident though only threw up cat efficiency code .
Maybe because I stopped and put petrol in to bring the fuel level back up, rather than keep driving until I got home.
A mechanic on another forum claims that cylinder specific codes on these arent always accurate and can be taken with a pinch of salt ?
Will have a check of injector wiring, but if that doesnt provide any answers Im going to run the fuel level low again, and then see if I can make some progress with it.
Maybe completely empty and clean out the tank and then start fresh from there.
It isnt a huge problem so far, but pretty irritating, and may get worse until I diagnose it properly.
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Have swapped plug, stick coil and injector between 1 and 3, but code stayed at pot 3. The most recent incident though only threw up cat efficiency code .
Maybe because I stopped and put petrol in to bring the fuel level back up, rather than keep driving until I got home.
A mechanic on another forum claims that cylinder specific codes on these arent always accurate and can be taken with a pinch of salt ?
Will have a check of injector wiring, but if that doesnt provide any answers Im going to run the fuel level low again, and then see if I can make some progress with it.
Maybe completely empty and clean out the tank and then start fresh from there.
It isnt a huge problem so far, but pretty irritating, and may get worse until I diagnose it properly.
Which might be why we ended up replacing 2 of them on my colleague's car. And I think he'd already had the third replaced by an AA man...
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not sure on that model if it uses a supply line to the injectors and then the regulator (if there) sends excess back on a return line or wether its regulated at source and then only has one supply line to the front ? either way a pressure test is a good idea eventually
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Just supply to the rail. No return.
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Just supply to the rail. No return.
That's where you test the pressure.
There are too many potential causes to fire the parts cannon in the hope you'll hit the target
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But how to test it ? :-\
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if there is no valve to test the pressure from them you will need to 't' into the connector .most pressure guages come with a selection of adapters.
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Cheers. Might have to look into doing that. :y
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Just to (hopefully) finish up this one.
I have deliberately run the fuel level down to very low and left it parked up overnight for two nights.
This was expected to make it play silly buggers again, and I would then drain the tank, but it has run perfectly, so have now brimmed the tank.
I can only assume the can of petrol I tipped in the tank just before the problems started, was contaminated in some way and has now been completely used up.
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Ahh happy ending for a change 👍
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it all sounds very likely especially if the car had never experienced any issues at all untill you put the can of fuel in it. modern fuel doesnt keep very well compared to what it used to .
i remember draining the tankof a car that i hadnt used for a few years and tried to use the fuel up by putting just one can in a car with half a tank of current fuel in it. it was definately a bit jerky afterwards for a while ?
time will tell !
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The next can of petrol you buy for it, dont forget the swan vestas.
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I’ve been telling him this for ages🤣🔥
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Might come to that. EML came on during the drive to work tonight. ::) ;D
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Hmmm. My 3.2 has been sat for almost a year with a quarter of a tank of fuel in it. Wondering if I should drain it all out before firing it up.
Not that it's ready to fire up yet!
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My lawnmower backfired on the first attempt to start it this year. That had been sat since the Autumn. Now its perfect, although I did have to refill my empty Jerry can - 5l lasts me about 3 years ;D
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Boxster has been sat on the drive for 6 months with not much fuel in the tank. I fire it up for ten minutes once a fortnight and it runs fine.
I suspect the fuel I had in the can was already contaminated, but will never know.
Just read and cleared the code on the C1. P0420 - cat efficiency bank 1.
Could be a o2 sensor ? could need a cat ? :-\
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Or a damn good thrashing, what do you think Basil?