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[Darth Loo-knee]

I am fixing a members car, which had a few signs of a head gasket problem. Water loss (but could not see where from) plus quiet a bit of steam out of the exhaust.. although, the car was not missing....

When I pressurised the coolant system, I could see no leaks at all, until water was passing my feet..... I looked under the car to find water pouring out of the centre boxes of the exhaust... I removed the spark plugs to find water was coming up two plug wells. I removed the Plenum which was full of water, the bagpipes too....Also water was coming past valves and filling Three inlets..










So yet again another V6 having seemingly a Head Gasket problem.....

A number of times now I have been told that "There is no need to swap head gaskets in a pair!" I have heard people have had work done on here, where only one side has being changed.... Have a look at this picture of one sides head gasket... what do you think the other side will be like?? Don't forget the pair have probably never been changed, they also share the same water/anti freeze....



Just too add, the Oil Cooler was rusty as sin and so was the Water Pump impeller


A few more pictures.

[mantahatch]

I am sorry to say it but if that was my engine it would be in the scrap yard.

[feeutfo]

So run with just water. 

[Darth Loo-knee]

People seem to forget, that anti freeze not only stops your car from freezing up like its name says, but is an anti corrosive too.
This car is a 3.0 Facelift so not the 1998 problem year with head gaskets...

We dont know how someone has serviced your car before we buy it. Full Vauxhall Service History aint worth the paper its written on, thats being proved more times than we can shake a stick at...

Me personally , I believe this engine when finished will be near as good as new. What servicing it gets from here after is the key.

[Andy B]

Yuk! I have to say I'm surprised that you got the gasket came off in one piece  . When we lifted a head on Scott's car, the gasket came off bits, mostly the inner bit with the fire rings & a hand full off gasket material. 

[Andy B]

People seem to forget, that anti freeze not only stops your car from freezing up like its name says, but is an anti corrosive too.
 ......

This used to be a problem years ago eg Triumph's V6 when people just put anti-freeze in during the winter, I thought that people were wiser these days .............. seems not though. 

[Darth Loo-knee]

If you look at the head gasket, part of the firing ring is missing.... I have seen no end of head gaskets looking a state but not the firing rings on an Omega..

[Darth Loo-knee]

I have had fun with bolts breaking in the heads when removing the exhaust manifolds too I have counted to ten several times doing this little beauty... Glad I don't have a swearbox

[albitz]

All for the want of a bit of basic regular servicing.

[Kevin Wood]

People seem to forget, that anti freeze not only stops your car from freezing up like its name says, but is an anti corrosive too.
 ......

This used to be a problem years ago eg Triumph's V8 when people just put anti-freeze in during the winter, I thought that people were wiser these days .............. seems not though. 

 

[waspy]

Rather you than me Daz. I hope you don't scrape your knuckles too many times

[Andy B]

....
This used to be a problem years ago eg Triumph's V8 when people just put anti-freeze in during the winter, I thought that people were wiser these days .............. seems not though. 

 

Well done Kevin  ................... you spotted my deliberate mistake       

[TheBoy]

Blimey, with that amount of water in the inlets, surely the cylinders would be pretty full . How come its not hydraulic'd itself 


Another, very dramatic/obvious/descriptive/visible reason why a proper 50:50 antifreeze mix is utterly critical, no matter what the temperature

[Elite Pete]

Not as bad and as expensive as Loo Knees but the same cause. Oil cooler cover plate

[Nick W]

I have had fun with bolts breaking in the heads when removing the exhaust manifolds too I have counted to ten several times doing this little beauty... Glad I don't have a swearbox

At least that happened as part of a job when the heads were coming off anyway. It's not that bad a job to sort out when they're on the bench.
I'd hate to drill out and helicoil(if necessary) exhaust studs on the car.

[Darth Loo-knee]

And so the saga continues.............

I have been so busy of late this car has had to be put in the back burner...

After having the head gaskets done etc etc etc the car was totally put back together. To find the starter motor sounding like it was just spinning, the battery was flat within a minute   so had to leave it to charge up....
Couple of days later battery was charged, car turning over but not firing then within seconds it seemed battery again flat......... so this morning fitted charged up battery again..  plugged computer in no codes. Turned it over fired up sounded great then a noise almost like a load of bolts in a tumble dryer, so turned off... what the hell was that???
So got under the car to see this





Put my finger through the round hole at the bottom of the gearbox to find these .....

[Radar]

Stone Me!

[Andy H]

I wonder what state the casting on the nose of the starter motor is in?

[feeutfo]

Hydro lock damage?

[waspy]

It's clearly from the inside out

[cem_devecioglu]

never seen such a thing.. can someone explain why this happen

[Kevin Wood]

Bit of gravel or other foreign objects in the bell housing by the look of it.

[albitz]

I wondered if they were the remains of the heads of the TC bolts ? 

[Darth Loo-knee]

I think its parts of metal from the starter motor...

[omega3000]

  looks like its been shot at .... some force to blow a hole in that

[feeutfo]

So what your saying Daz, is the head gasket failed, well and truly filled the bores with water, the car was turned over on the key as you do, but as the cylinders where full of water the engine hydro locked and couldn't turnover, thereby straining the starter motor and straining the gears until sumat broke off.
 You've now fixed the hg so the engine can turn, but the starter won't engage?

Got it turning over but the busted off bits floating around in the bell housing caught and got flung around making the noise and eventually got wedged and busted the bell housing.

So in short, the poor servicing broke the bell housing...?

[Olympia5776]

Not wishing to hi jack the thread but I couldn't agree more on the thread title.
I learned a salutary lesson last week when my Manta lost all it's coolant on a run. All my own fault for ignoring to change the coolant , flush out the system and check the AF to water ratio at the prescribed intervals . 

[Darth Loo-knee]

So what your saying Daz, is the head gasket failed, well and truly filled the bores with water, the car was turned over on the key as you do, but as the cylinders where full of water the engine hydro locked and couldn't turnover, thereby straining the starter motor and straining the gears until sumat broke off.
 You've now fixed the hg so the engine can turn, but the starter won't engage?

Got it turning over but the busted off bits floating around in the bell housing caught and got flung around making the noise and eventually got wedged and busted the bell housing.

So in short, the poor servicing broke the bell housing...?

I dont think that is far off...but... What I was told was that water was being used beyond belief, steam bellowing from the exhaust, so got home turned off the engine. The following day tried to start the car but the starter motor sounded funny.  Obviously the cylinders had been getting water in there, also the inlet valve were letting water past them to fill the inlet ports up to the sandwich plate...I could turn the engine over by hand when I got rid of the water. Head fitted and still could turn the engine over with timing constantly spot on. So completely finished. Started the car, it sounds normal. I lifted the revs slightly this is when I heard the bits of metal that were flying about inside the bell housing.. The only things in there are flex plate, torque convertor and the starter motor nose. What I am hoping is that if I remove the starter motor all will be revealed..

[bigboykarl]

you like the puzzles i send to you ,don't you...

[Darth Loo-knee]

you like the puzzles i send to you ,don't you...

They are better than Suduko but far more stressful 

[Darth Loo-knee]

So at last this Job is complete....... Thank the Lord 

As some know I started a new job and so my spare time has become none exsistant.. lucky really Karl had another car and knew this was not going to be done as quickly as I usually like things to be done ..

An update then from my last post.

I had completely put everything back together to find those bits of metal in the Gearbox. So, removed the gearbox to make sure every little piece was out, plus to check that nothing else was wrong in there.. I could see the damage to the starter motor with the gearbox removed so removed that as well (which could have been easier when the heads were off but all these things come to try us .

Dropped the Sump to clean out the nasty gunk, plus the pick up pipe. The oil filter was hideous.... Charged up the battery.

So this morning the Drums began to Roll...

Car burst into life but would not tick over, so turned it off. Removed the ICV to find the slide rusted solid, (with the amount of water originally in the bagpipes, plenum plus inlet it was hardly suprising really.) Fitted one I had all nice and clean & oiled up then tried again.
Burst into life to be ticking over nicely  result.....

After a while the car became nice and quiet no leaks or anything so Happy Days....

Karl come and get it FFS 

Time for a couple of pictures me thinks....

So what do you think caused this then??



At Long Last

[05omegav6]

Had the starter motor been out before dropping it could be enough to cause a weakspot in the casting to start to crack, then over time, with the torque that those motors chuck out, it's only time before the crack spreads...

Crack may not have been spotted if never removed again

Still looks nice and shiny now

[bigboykarl]

wooo hoooooo...... ......

[Marks DTM Calib]

I wonder if the engine has been partialy hydraulicing, this would try to force the starter shaft away from the ring gear and could smash the front casting (seen it before on a diesel)

[Darth Loo-knee]

I wonder if the engine has been partialy hydraulicing, this would try to force the starter shaft away from the ring gear and could smash the front casting (seen it before on a diesel)

To be fair Master I was talking earlier about this to Karl. I was thinking about putting some power to the starter to see if the shaft was bent. The only reason I could think of...

[Darth Loo-knee]

Had the starter motor been out before dropping it could be enough to cause a weakspot in the casting to start to crack, then over time, with the torque that those motors chuck out, it's only time before the crack spreads...

Crack may not have been spotted if never removed again

Still looks nice and shiny now

Can't in all honesty say Al if its been out before... although looked to me as though its been there along time. Of all the Omega's I have played with only two have I changed the starter motor.. this was number 2

[henryd]

I wonder if the engine has been partialy hydraulicing, this would try to force the starter shaft away from the ring gear and could smash the front casting (seen it before on a diesel)

+1 lucky it didn't bend a conrod

[Darth Loo-knee]

I wonder if the engine has been partialy hydraulicing, this would try to force the starter shaft away from the ring gear and could smash the front casting (seen it before on a diesel)

Still find it strange that the car did not missfire....
Karl has been a Lucky Bunny with this, perhaps between turning the car off and the following morning when the key was turned to start the car, the cylinders filled with the water, hydrolicing to bend the starter motor to break its nose casting.... Good job it seems Karl did not keep trying to start it 

[Marks DTM Calib]

Indeed, you will probably find that the starter shaft is not bent as the casting would be the weak point.