Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: zirk on 05 February 2014, 14:43:44
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Ok, 3.2 Elite Auto Estate, getting her ready for an Mot this afternoon, not been started for a while, jump in this morning, connect battery, starts on the button, quick spin, pre Mot check all fine, treat her to a wash, scuttle full of leaves so a good scrub there, get it warmed up ready to leave for the MOT, wont start.
I get Flashing EML and Spanner with Ing. on, checked with the 2nd Key same deal.
With the Ing, on I can hear the Trottle Body Clicking and some relays in the Relay Box and some clicking behind the HU inside and the odd clicking from the SL at the back, Clicking seems to be in sync with the Flashing EML and Spanner Lights, all other lights fine.
Diss, Battery, unplug ECU for a few mins, put all back same?
Help. :(
Edit, forgot, cant do Peddle Trick or Read Codes via Bluetooth.
Could at a push, grab another ECU from another Car (Imobiliser ?) but that would make me car'less if I screw things up.
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Flashing spanner light is an immobiliser issue but not seen it with the other EML on as well. Which one is flashing, the one with a picture of an engine or the spanner?
Are you saying that the pedal trick doesn't flash out any codes? What happens instead?
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Flashing spanner light is an immobiliser issue but not seen it with the other EML on as well. Which one is flashing, the one with a picture of an engine or the spanner?
Are you saying that the pedal trick doesn't flash out any codes? What happens instead?
Both EML and Spanner.
If I try and P trick it nothing happens, the EML/ Spanner still flash in time with the Ticking.Clicking
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Quick thought, any bits hanging under the Scuttle Panel that could of got a soaking?
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Just managed to get the cheapo reader to work once only.
OBD Report
Engine light OFF
Active: 0
Pending: 2
P0705 (pending)
U2105 (pending)
P0705 not listed on OOF, my reader says,-
Transmission Range Sensor, A circuit PRNDL input
U2105 not listed on OOF, my reader says,- Not available,
(could this be Can Bus Issue?)
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Quick thought, any bits hanging under the Scuttle Panel that could of got a soaking?
Assuming the P0705 is the Auto Selector switch, which Im not convinced thats what the problem is, but this is all new territory to me, could the switch have got a soaking from the Scuttle Panel clean?, surely its waterproof if its exposed to the elements?
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Hi Chris,
this sounds very similar to the fault that Toledodude (Paul) from Ipswich had last year on his 2.6.
It was a faulty engine ECU in the end . This problem occured after the car had been stood up for a while I believe. But it started fine for a few days before the fault occured .
HTH
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Hi Chris,
this sounds very similar to the fault that Toledodude (Paul) from Ipswich had last year on his 2.6.
It was a faulty engine ECU in the end . This problem occured after the car had been stood up for a while I believe. But it started fine for a few days before the fault occured .
HTH
Thanks Al, I'll see if I can find the Post, not sure if thats good or bad though. :-\
Had a tiny bit of progress, just gonna have a Cupa and then post up.
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Hi Chris,
this sounds very similar to the fault that Toledodude (Paul) from Ipswich had last year on his 2.6.
It was a faulty engine ECU in the end . This problem occured after the car had been stood up for a while I believe. But it started fine for a few days before the fault occured .
HTH
Thanks Al, I'll see if I can find the Post, not sure if thats good or bad though. :-\
Had a tiny bit of progress, just gonna have a Cupa and then post up.
if it helps to find it ,It was late May /Early june 2013 . Quite a long thread which started with "Clicking throttle butterflys"
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Right a little bit progress, did manage to start it, once, started on the button, this time the spanner light came, read codes,
Engine light OFF / Active: 1 / Pending: 0 / U2105 again
So, cleared codes, with engine running, and took this opportunity to warm the Engine up to temp with the bonnet down, with the view it may or may not dry any wet inside there, all revving ok, sounds sweet, up to temp, switch off, wont start again same deal as before flashing EML and Spanner and clicking Throttle Body and clicking behind Dash this time (May have been the same noise as behind the HU as before).
Checked codes again, U2105 again, cleared, so I tried moving the Auto Shift back forward, sideways just in case, didn't seem to make make much difference.
Now for every 20 x Ing. on you get the Flashing E and S, but if you wait, sometimes they stay on for a few seconds longer, catch that just at the right moment and it starts and runs, followed by our friendly spanner Code U2105. :-\
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http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=115237.msg1455719#msg1455719
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http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=115237.msg1455719#msg1455719
Thanks Rob, did managed to find it, FFS 10 pages of hag, feel like committing Herri Kerri just reading it. :'(
Only difference there is Ive managed (I think) to now get an intermittent issue.
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Going back out to check some voltages at various points etc, also think I'll unplug the ECU bring it in and warm it slightly on the Rad.
Meanwhile, can someone eplain this P0705 Code, I assuming PRNDL selector, and what effect this would have on Starting, ways around or quick or temp fix, and whether this would upset the ECU? (Auto Box ECU talking to the main ECU ???)
Also anyone able to shed some light on this U2105 Error Code?
Thanks Chris. ;)
Edit, oh and another one, would a 2.6 ECU work on a 3.2?
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Sounds daft ;). But is it an Auto and moved gear selector ?
That caught me out on Wife's VW as stopped car on drive, engine off, opened garage, tried to start car and nowt !!!!! Only the sound of various relays saying NO !!! All rather embarrassing after 10 mins of threatening to take car apart as noticed was in Drive still. Popped into Park and started a treat :D
Not sure if this same on Omega Auto as mine is a Manual :y
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Check the transponder chip in the key .. it "may" have come loose from its housing and be moving inside the key, it doesn't have to move far to stop the immobilisor doing its job .. which is what the flashing EML is telling you.
It's a very small, black rectangular shaped bit of plastic, sits in a little "detent" in the key near the base of the blade...
Quick dab of superglue sorts it .. been there, got the T shirt .. but was in France at the time and stuck until it was sussed !!
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Does sound similar to my ECU problems, the only way i could start it was to have ignition lights on, then unplug ecu ,then re-plug in,it would start but only in kind-of limp mode it also ran very hot but did show ecu was at fault
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Forgot to add Zirk i had Lazydocker and Twiglet round with tech2 and couldn't communicate with ecu on either device which sounds similar to yours, i changed all three items ecu ,key transponders, and bit under steering wheel----car is still going great(cheers Al) hope you sort it soon
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Sounds daft ;). But is it an Auto and moved gear selector ?
That caught me out on Wife's VW as stopped car on drive, engine off, opened garage, tried to start car and nowt !!!!! Only the sound of various relays saying NO !!! All rather embarrassing after 10 mins of threatening to take car apart as noticed was in Drive still. Popped into Park and started a treat :D
Not sure if this same on Omega Auto as mine is a Manual :y
Thanks Checked That already. ;)
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Check the transponder chip in the key .. it "may" have come loose from its housing and be moving inside the key, it doesn't have to move far to stop the immobilisor doing its job .. which is what the flashing EML is telling you.
It's a very small, black rectangular shaped bit of plastic, sits in a little "detent" in the key near the base of the blade...
Quick dab of superglue sorts it .. been there, got the T shirt .. but was in France at the time and stuck until it was sussed !!
Thanks tried second Key still the same. :'(
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Does sound similar to my ECU problems, the only way i could start it was to have ignition lights on, then unplug ecu ,then re-plug in,it would start but only in kind-of limp mode it also ran very hot but did show ecu was at fault
OK I'll try that now. ;)
Keep them coming guys as Im nearly out of ideas here. :(
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Does sound similar to my ECU problems, the only way i could start it was to have ignition lights on, then unplug ecu ,then re-plug in,it would start but only in kind-of limp mode it also ran very hot but did show ecu was at fault
OK I'll try that now. ;)
Keep them coming guys as Im nearly out of ideas here. :(
Ok tried that, unplugging ECU stops the clicking, then plugging back in still no clicking had to try 2 or 3 times before Engine would start, once started straight into Limp mode with multiple Codes.
TBH, I would expect that, plugging ECU in with Ing on, wouldn't really give the ECU a chance to cycle up properly.
Reset codes, when it does start seems fine, no Limp.
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Does sound similar to my ECU problems, the only way i could start it was to have ignition lights on, then unplug ecu ,then re-plug in,it would start but only in kind-of limp mode it also ran very hot but did show ecu was at fault
OK I'll try that now. ;)
Keep them coming guys as Im nearly out of ideas here. :(
Ok tried that, unplugging ECU stops the clicking, then plugging back in still no clicking had to try 2 or 3 times before Engine would start, once started straight into Limp mode with multiple Codes.
TBH, I would expect that, plugging ECU in with Ing on, wouldn't really give the ECU a chance to cycle up properly.
Reset codes, when it does start seems fine, no Limp.
Your problem does seem similar to what Toledodude Paul was getting Chris :-\
whats your next move ?
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Does sound similar to my ECU problems, the only way i could start it was to have ignition lights on, then unplug ecu ,then re-plug in,it would start but only in kind-of limp mode it also ran very hot but did show ecu was at fault
OK I'll try that now. ;)
Keep them coming guys as Im nearly out of ideas here. :(
Ok tried that, unplugging ECU stops the clicking, then plugging back in still no clicking had to try 2 or 3 times before Engine would start, once started straight into Limp mode with multiple Codes.
TBH, I would expect that, plugging ECU in with Ing on, wouldn't really give the ECU a chance to cycle up properly.
Reset codes, when it does start seems fine, no Limp.
Your problem does seem similar to what Toledodude Paul was getting Chris :-\
whats your next move ?
Wish I knew mate, cold, wet, hungry, could murder a Beer. ;D
I not sure, in the back of my head I have this nagging feel that its not the ECU but something somewhere pissing the ECU off.
So far,
Checked Volts etc, and checked for voltage difference between Battery and Engine, seem all ok,
Checked the two purple relays, they seem to be ok.
Changed Keys, gone through the Lock up Unlock proceedure.
I can hear a very faint whine from arounf the Plenlium, guessing this fuel pressure but why would you get that with Ing. on, only happens when things are clicking.
The Clicking is Purple Relays, Throttle Body, i think something from the back of Engine and when left along for a while clicking fuel pump prime, the Clicking on off is in sync with the flashing EML and Spanner.
???????????????
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The flashing EML is an indication of an imobilisor problem preventing the engine starting ...perhaps the immobilsor system is sending odd signals to the ECU even when it allows starting ??
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The flashing EML is an indication of an imobilisor problem preventing the engine starting ...perhaps the immobilsor system is sending odd signals to the ECU even when it allows starting ??
Its the EML and Spanner light, its not a constant flash rate, sometimes rapid, intermittent and sometime stops for a few seconds, when it stops flashing this is the only chance you get to start it, ie, before it starts flashing again.
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Making a note of what lives where... remove all the relays/fuses from the ecu box, the five/six large fuses, the ecu and unplug the three round plugs next to the battery.
Cover everything with a liberal dose of WD40, leave covered over night.
In the morning refit everything and try again :y
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Chris,
Toledodudes ECU failure was the first that almost all on here had ever heard of . . . I'm thinking that it could be the start of it being a more common occurance on the 2.6 /3.2 models due to the ongoing age of the engine ECU's on these models . :-\ :-\
With Pauls one . . the general opinion was that something was mis informing the ECU . . A change of ECU & it's related bits
sorted the problem for him . . . so if there was another fault elsewhere . . surely the "new" ECU would have acted the same &
played up :-\ :-\
Setting up a temporary replacement ECU & it's required bits , as Paul did , to see if the fault is fixed would be my way of going
on this I think .
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The flashing EML is an indication of an imobilisor problem preventing the engine starting ...perhaps the immobilsor system is sending odd signals to the ECU even when it allows starting ??
Its the EML and Spanner light, its not a constant flash rate, sometimes rapid, intermittent and sometime stops for a few seconds, when it stops flashing this is the only chance you get to start it, ie, before it starts flashing again.
That actually makes sense ... as while its flashing the imobilsor is saying "not allowed to start", once it stops flashing its happy to allow a start ...
Question now is why is the imobilisor upset, and intermittently so ... not the key as you've tried both, so, ... have you disturbed the detector ring at the ignition key area ?? have you checked the wiring around the ignition key area ..... as thats were the detector is ...
Just random thoughts as I think its imobilisor linked ...
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Or moisture has made its way to the ECU plugs :-\ given the jet washing... and two keys having the same problem... especially if it was fine prior to the sprucing up :-\
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Making a note of what lives where... remove all the relays/fuses from the ecu box, the five/six large fuses, the ecu and unplug the three round plugs next to the battery.
Cover everything with a liberal dose of WD40, leave covered over night.
In the morning refit everything and try again :y
Did think about them Multi Connectors Al, but was started to get too dark and wet to persue that one, will have a look though. ;)
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Chris,
Toledodudes ECU failure was the first that almost all on here had ever heard of . . . I'm thinking that it could be the start of it being a more common occurance on the 2.6 /3.2 models due to the ongoing age of the engine ECU's on these models . :-\ :-\
With Pauls one . . the general opinion was that something was mis informing the ECU . . A change of ECU & it's related bits
sorted the problem for him . . . so if there was another fault elsewhere . . surely the "new" ECU would have acted the same &
played up :-\ :-\
Setting up a temporary replacement ECU & it's required bits , as Paul did , to see if the fault is fixed would be my way of going
on this I think .
You might be right Al, not ruling out a faulty ECU, but something is just nagging me, its not that.
Could have been with Paul that swopping Ecu's he may or may not have undisturbed something that was related to the problem. :-\
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The flashing EML is an indication of an imobilisor problem preventing the engine starting ...perhaps the immobilsor system is sending odd signals to the ECU even when it allows starting ??
Its the EML and Spanner light, its not a constant flash rate, sometimes rapid, intermittent and sometime stops for a few seconds, when it stops flashing this is the only chance you get to start it, ie, before it starts flashing again.
That actually makes sense ... as while its flashing the imobilsor is saying "not allowed to start", once it stops flashing its happy to allow a start ...
Question now is why is the imobilisor upset, and intermittently so ... not the key as you've tried both, so, ... have you disturbed the detector ring at the ignition key area ?? have you checked the wiring around the ignition key area ..... as thats were the detector is ...
Just random thoughts as I think its imobilisor linked ...
Thanks Entwood, wilst Im not ruling out an imobillsor issue, Im kind of drawn to it not being that, reason being, in my eperience, of the FL's once the 'No or wrong Transponder' is dedected by the system, you generally have to go through the motions of a reset before the thing will allow you to start again, ie, key out, lock door, unlock door, right key back in again, start.
Without doing the reset, even with the right key, it shouldn't let you start, so why if theres an intermittent issue, is it letting me start occasionally? without doing the reset. Which I have tried of course.
AS said not ruling it out, as starting to run out of ideas now, in the absence of another ECU.
Obviously I appreciate all ideas and will check the connections ECU mobile net to the Ing. :y
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Just been out to have another play. :'(
Just dont know, kinda getting hooked on the idea its a Fuel issue, possible not priming to pressure correctly and the ECU somehow stuck in a cycle, telling it to do it all over again?
Thoughts anyone :-\
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Swap both purple relays from a known working car :y
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Swap both purple relays from a known working car :y
Thanks, already done that. :y
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Swap both purple relays from a known working car :y
Thanks, already done that. :y
Ecu or wiring then :-\
Or water between the two...
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What are you using to read the codes? They aren't valid for that ECU, so wondering if the code reader is telling porkies. :-\
The ECU is clearly upset with something immediately after switch-on.
First things first: is the battery voltage holding up? If you turn on the headlights on main beam, then the ignition, do they remain on nice and bright while the ECU goes through its' initialisation?
Next: Throttle body actuator and position sensors.. Could they have got damp inside them? Is there damp inside the connector? I'm guessing the first thing the ECU does is to check the range of the throttle position actuator and set it ready for starting.
Worth checking the fusible link above the battery + terminal. I believe the 30A one drives the engine electronics. Check it hasn't got drowned and the contacts are clean. Ditto the 2 purple relays. Presumably they looked OK?
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Quick question please, which relay(S) are controled from Ing (Ing on position, engine not started yet)
And if poss which fuse feeds climate panel, Ta.
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The main relay (purple, at the back of engine bay fuse box, nearest to engine) should pull in with the ignition on. It's not directly controlled by the ignition switch, but by the ECU, which gets another feed from the V pin on the ignition switch to tell it the ignition switch is on.
All engine components with the exception of the coil packs and fuel pump are fed from this relay via the 30A fusible link.
Fuel pump is fed by the other purple relay via fuse 18 in the passenger compartment fuse box.
Coil packs are fed straight from the V pin on the ignition switch.
Climate control panel is fed from V pin via fuse 14 in the passenger compartment. It also gets a permanent feed via fuse 12.
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The main relay (purple, at the back of engine bay fuse box, nearest to engine) should pull in with the ignition on. It's not directly controlled by the ignition switch, but by the ECU, which gets another feed from the V pin on the ignition switch to tell it the ignition switch is on.
All engine components with the exception of the coil packs and fuel pump are fed from this relay via the 30A fusible link.
Fuel pump is fed by the other purple relay via fuse 18 in the passenger compartment fuse box.
Coil packs are fed straight from the V pin on the ignition switch.
Climate control panel is fed from V pin via fuse 14 in the passenger compartment. It also gets a permanent feed via fuse 12.
Thanks Kevin, and I'll post a reply to your other questions in a mo.
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What are you using to read the codes? They aren't valid for that ECU, so wondering if the code reader is telling porkies. :-\
A simple ODB Phone Bluetooth Reader, its telling me code 2105 is not available, but shows that code when the spanner comes on if and when it runs.
The ECU is clearly upset with something immediately after switch-on.
Yep, or could be ECU but Im not convinced about that.
First things first: is the battery voltage holding up? If you turn on the headlights on main beam, then the ignition, do they remain on nice and bright while the ECU goes through its' initialisation?
Yep battery fine, currently alternating between two batteries to keep on top of all that, both batts good at 12.6V, Alternator 14.v
Next: Throttle body actuator and position sensors.. Could they have got damp inside them? Is there damp inside the connector? I'm guessing the first thing the ECU does is to check the range of the throttle position actuator and set it ready for starting.
Checked connectors seem ok.
Worth checking the fusible link above the battery + terminal. I believe the 30A one drives the engine electronics. Check it hasn't got drowned and the contacts are clean. Ditto the 2 purple relays. Presumably they looked OK?
Checked all big fuses for corrosion etc, seem fine, Purple Relays swaped from another Car.
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Hi Chris,
bit of a bugger this eh ? :-\ :-\
I know I keep refering to Toledodudes problem . . . but this seems exactly what he had . . .
as shown in the very long thread on that subject from May/June last year . . he tried all manner of suggested solutions all to no avail . . .
As soon as he borrowed a "temporary" ECU / imobiliser ring & chip, as a replacement, all was fine , problem fixed .
He then went on to buy a replacement ECU & bits , fitted them & car has been A1 since then .
The only thing we don't know about that is . . . was it a fault in the actual ECU or a fault in the imobiliser ring/chip.
As these bits come matched to the ECU (I think) we will never know if that was the case .
My suggestion would have been to ask Albs to lend you a ECU & bits for trial purpose as Paul did
. .but he's not here anymore :( :(
With Pauls car we tried all the relays , fuel pump issues , changed throttle bodies, changed pot, and checked ,cleaned ~& lubricated all the ECU & main loom multiway connectors all to no avail :( :( :(
My money is still on an ECU or the imobiliser parts failure
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Hi Chris,
bit of a bugger this eh ? :-\ :-\
I know I keep refering to Toledodudes problem . . . but this seems exactly what he had . . .
as shown in the very long thread on that subject from May/June last year . . he tried all manner of suggested solutions all to no avail . . .
As soon as he borrowed a "temporary" ECU / imobiliser ring & chip, as a replacement, all was fine , problem fixed .
He then went on to buy a replacement ECU & bits , fitted them & car has been A1 since then .
The only thing we don't know about that is . . . was it a fault in the actual ECU or a fault in the imobiliser ring/chip.
As these bits come matched to the ECU (I think) we will never know if that was the case .
My suggestion would have been to ask Albs to lend you a ECU & bits for trial purpose as Paul did
. .but he's not here anymore :( :(
With Pauls car we tried all the relays , fuel pump issues , changed throttle bodies, changed pot, and checked ,cleaned ~& lubricated all the ECU & main loom multiway connectors all to no avail :( :( :(
My money is still on an ECU or the imobiliser parts failure
Hi Al, well just come in for a cuppa, been on it all day and its driving me mad, I'll list what Ive done later.
Yep, Im up for an ECU change, can get my hands on a 2.6 in a short while, so willing to give it a go, even though Im still convinced its a fuel prime issue.
Just had a play all around the Transponder and Ing, Switch area.
Out of interest how do these Transponder mobiliser modules come off, last one I did was on a 3.0 and that just pulled off the Ing outer, this one on the 3.2 doesn't what to play, is there a trick as last thing I wont to do is break the bloody thing. :'(
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Hi Chris,
bit of a bugger this eh ? :-\ :-\
I know I keep refering to Toledodudes problem . . . but this seems exactly what he had . . .
as shown in the very long thread on that subject from May/June last year . . he tried all manner of suggested solutions all to no avail . . .
As soon as he borrowed a "temporary" ECU / imobiliser ring & chip, as a replacement, all was fine , problem fixed .
He then went on to buy a replacement ECU & bits , fitted them & car has been A1 since then .
The only thing we don't know about that is . . . was it a fault in the actual ECU or a fault in the imobiliser ring/chip.
As these bits come matched to the ECU (I think) we will never know if that was the case .
My suggestion would have been to ask Albs to lend you a ECU & bits for trial purpose as Paul did
. .but he's not here anymore :( :(
With Pauls car we tried all the relays , fuel pump issues , changed throttle bodies, changed pot, and checked ,cleaned ~& lubricated all the ECU & main loom multiway connectors all to no avail :( :( :(
My money is still on an ECU or the imobiliser parts failure
Hi Al, well just come in for a cuppa, been on it all day and its driving me mad, I'll list what Ive done later.
Yep, Im up for an ECU change, can get my hands on a 2.6 in a short while, so willing to give it a go, even though Im still convinced its a fuel prime issue.
Just had a play all around the Transponder and Ing, Switch area.
Out of interest how do these Transponder mobiliser modules come off, last one I did was on a 3.0 and that just pulled off the Ing outer, this one on the 3.2 doesn't what to play, is there a trick as last thing I wont to do is break the bloody thing. :'(
Ah ! :-[ :-[ not sure on that ,as I was not present at Pauls car when he changed it over . Taxi Al or Rob G will probably know though . If not someone will enlighten you
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Ah ! :-[ :-[ not sure on that ,as I was not present at Pauls car when he changed it over . Taxi Al or Rob G will probably know though . If not someone will enlighten you
Cheers Al, think I'll post that one in the Electrical Section, think most have got bored reading this thread now, ;D
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They can be pulled straight off the barrel with care, but easier if the barrel is removed first :y