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[JamesV6CDX]

Hi Folks, long time no speak. I apologise for being less active (including any PM's I've missed), I have been very busy (work and family) in these strange times, and I really hope you are all well.

I wondered however, if I could please ask for some views or advice about my Range Rover. I know a few on here have / have owned them, so thought it worth a punt!

2002, L322 Range Rover, 4.4 litre V8 Petrol (Lpg converted) BMW lump - the M62. 5 Speed auto. Does 11 to 15mpg, (regardless of which fuel) depending on weight, and driving style / conditions. It's one of the neatest and best LPG installs I have ever seen - I bought it like it, very tidy indeed, and you can't tell which fuel you're on.

This is, absolutely hands down, the best car I've ever owned.l She carries 4 of us, two dogs, two roof boxes, two bikes, and still does 15mpg (on gas or petrol) on a run, which I think is good. We call her "Ronnie the Rangie".

We've had it a few years, done tens of thousands of effortles miles, and replaced no more than a water pump, and a couple of suspenison consumables. (And of course, a service or two and some tyres).

On Sunday, she let us down, for the first time. Only, really, it was my fault

So on Saturday, we drove down to the South Coast. On the way through Oxford, I ran out of LPG, but, as Shell at Witney was 10 miles away, I did that little bit on petrol, and then filled up with gas.

By a sheer mistake, I forgot to flick back to LPG. So, I began a long journey, and got to the M5. After a while, I notced a misfire, and thought "What's going on", thinking it might be the recent rain in the plug wells.

It then twigged - we were still on petrol, and had ran dry.

This is the bad part. Because my mind was elsewhere, and because were half way down the air balloon hill and had nowhere to stop, I switched onto LPG, which she duly did, running great again, and proceeded to do another 100+ miles.

I then kept her running, until we got to a garage, and I filled her to the top with petrol (ouch, £130!).

Went to set off... wouldn't start.

I force started on LPG, and being warm she instantly fired up, drove to our hotel, and thought little more of it. Went out, had a mexican, played the slot machines.
 f
That night, I (sadly) lay awake in bed, thinking, "why won't she go on petrol". And it twigged.

The LPG injectors "piggy back" from the petrol ones. As far as the engine ECU is concerned, the car is still on petrol, even if it's actually on LPG. So, the fuel pump will continue to run, pumping fuel around the rail, and back to the tank, albeit unused.

So, at the point it ran out and I flicked to LPG, although the car SEEMED to keep runing fine, in fact, the petrol pump was still running - now dry. For a couple of hours.

I can, therefore, only conclude that I have burnt out the petrol pump, in the tank.

Concur?

Pattern pumps start at £60 plus, genuine at £500+. To do the job, is a load of trim  / back seat up, and do it from above, through a hatch. A ballache, but in the scheme of things doesn't look toooooooo painful!

Any thoughts? Don't shoot me, but becuase I only use petrol to start and warm up, I might use a pattern one. I could even fit a switch to disable it after the initial warm up, to stop it wearing out?

I also, was hesitant to post this bit, because I KNOW this wasn't ideal (far from) but I would like objective opinions.

I won't go into why, because it's personal, but I have a real problem being driven over any distance, if I'm not behind the wheel. So I was really anxious about calling the AA. I also didn't want to be in a recovery truck, making small talk with someone wearing a mask for 4+ hours. So I looked at trains, with a view to collecting the rangie later. They were also a no go (£150+ each, and taking hours, with replacement busses). So, I took a risk, and went to a nearby halfords, and then used some of that (awful) holts easy start, to fire up the rangie initially, to allow her to then flick onto LPG, given petrol wouldn't work, and then drove home on gas.

I know esay start is volatile stuff. I know it causes hell with engines, incl pre-ignition. I know I took a risk. Please don't judge me for that. But I would like objective opinions on whether that one off, is likely to have caused one off, serious damage.

If it helps, She drove 150+ miles homs on LPG, lots of power, smooth, without a beat missed, like she always has been, so I am keeping all crossed that I got away with it as a one off. She won't be started again, until the new petrol pump is fitted. L

Thanks for reading

[Nick W]

There's nothing wrong with Easi-start if used properly. Your quick squirt to encourage an otherwise good engine to start is OK. Spraying half a can down the intake with added prayers on an engine with faults is a bad idea.


Don't forget that although manufacturers want to sell you the entire pump assembly, complete with the gauge sender, swirl pot and espresso machine, you can just replace the pump.

[JamesV6CDX]

There's nothing wrong with Easi-start if used properly. Your quick squirt to encourage an otherwise good engine to start is OK. Spraying half a can down the intake with added prayers on an engine with faults is a bad idea.


Don't forget that although manufacturers want to sell you the entire pump assembly, complete with the gauge sender, swirl pot and espresso machine, you can just replace the pump.

Thanks, Nick

I wouldn't usually dream of using the stuff.... but as a one off to get it running on LPG, so I could drive us home,  it seemed like a fair gamble!

[Doctor Gollum]

Yup, toasted fuel pump

Buy one to get the job done and save up to buy a better one when it fails

[Marks DTM Calib]

There's nothing wrong with Easi-start if used properly. Your quick squirt to encourage an otherwise good engine to start is OK. Spraying half a can down the intake with added prayers on an engine with faults is a bad idea.


Don't forget that although manufacturers want to sell you the entire pump assembly, complete with the gauge sender, swirl pot and espresso machine, you can just replace the pump.

Are you insane? 

It does enough damage to diesels, petrol can be even worse.

It has two places, one being used in controlled injection setups where the engine has been designed to start on it and a very very fine mist is introduced only after the engine starts rotation.

The other place is in the bin

A spray can of it only applies to option 2 

[Marks DTM Calib]

Listen for the fuel pump running and crack one of the fuel hoses to the rail to see if there is any pressure before diving in with willy nilly part replacement 

[Viral_Jim]

LRparts.net will sell you just the pump, no sender unit (which I assume wouldn't be goosed) for £92+VAT.

Also, there's a sticky on Landyzone with a how to for changing it as there are a number of plastic clips/pipe connectors that are easy to break off

But as Mr DTM says, I'd make sure that's your issue before you splash out.  I know it's a long shot, but have you checked it's not popped a fuse?

[Doctor Gollum]

That's a good point

Have seen this on at least three LPG Omegas... Check the fuel pump relay whilst you're in the fuse box.

[biggriffin]

Blocked filter, as you ran it dry.

[henryd]

James, have you a scantool that can run actuator tests on the RR, it would prove or disprove pump failure

[deviator]

I would be half tempted to put an additional relay in the system that means when you switch over to LPG, it cuts power to the petrol pump.

[Doctor Gollum]

Depends on the fuel set up...

If, like the Omega, it has a return line it will constantly run the pump... A weak pump will eventually cook the relay, a sticking pump will blow the fuse and running it dry will burn out the motor.

Long term net result is the same.

If it's not got a return, then the pump will only run until the pressure regulator cuts it. So along as there's enough fuel to reach the pressure, then there's no problem. Run it dry and again you'll eventually burn out the pump, but equally the relay may fail... Net result is again the same, but if the relay fails first, then you might get lucky

Never run the petrol pump dry, so always keep about a quarter tank in it, more if it's an Omega estate...

[Marks DTM Calib]

Depends on the fuel set up...

If, like the Omega, it has a return line it will constantly run the pump... A weak pump will eventually cook the relay, a sticking pump will blow the fuse and running it dry will burn out the motor.

Long term net result is the same.

If it's not got a return, then the pump will only run until the pressure regulator cuts it. So along as there's enough fuel to reach the pressure, then there's no problem. Run it dry and again you'll eventually burn out the pump, but equally the relay may fail... Net result is again the same, but if the relay fails first, then you might get lucky

Never run the petrol pump dry, so always keep about a quarter tank in it, more if it's an Omega estate...

Relays age dependent on cycles (mainly opening) not on time 'on', pushing current wont impact them so this is not a fact   

There is a Schrader valve on the fuel line under the engine acoustic cover, so easy enough to check for pressure.

[JamesV6CDX]

Listen for the fuel pump running and crack one of the fuel hoses to the rail to see if there is any pressure before diving in with willy nilly part replacement 

Not sure I need to crack a hose - there is no pressure at the fuel rail schrader valve

[JamesV6CDX]

I should add, fuse checked, and relay swapped, prior to posting. Won't even try... no fuel rail pressure at all.....

[Doctor Gollum]

What happens if you slap the tank whilst cranking?

Is effective enough on the Omega to prove a point, if only to confirm that the pump is a couple of stickings from dying completely

[JamesV6CDX]

I changed the pump in the tank today, the whole assembly, with the sender unit, etc. £60 from eBay, arrived next day, two year guarantee. Dead easy to do, from above.

One of these:



Bring on the slating, for that pattern part. But It's a very rapid, and very cheap way of getting mobile again.

Tomorrow, I'm going to wire in a switch, so that the pump only runs for the initial start up, prior to the switch to LPG.

So, chances are, in those conditions, it'll last for ages

As an aside, it's one of the best LPG installs I've ever seen. And no, regrettably, it wasn't mine.

I took a real gamble with this car, which paid off... but that's for another thread, with piccies

[JamesV6CDX]

I changed the pump in the tank today, the whole assembly, with the sender unit, etc. £60 from eBay, arrived next day, two year guarantee. Dead easy to do, from above.

One of these:



Fired up first time after that

Bring on the slating, for that pattern part. But It's a very rapid, and very cheap way of getting mobile again.

Tomorrow, I'm going to wire in a switch, so that the pump only runs for the initial start up, prior to the switch to LPG.

So, chances are, in those conditions, it'll last for ages

As an aside, it's one of the best LPG installs I've ever seen. And no, regrettably, it wasn't mine.

I took a real gamble with this car, which paid off... but that's for another thread, with piccies

[JamesV6CDX]

Sorry for the double post 

[Nick W]

Sorry for the double post 

That's alright, it's what most of the forum expect from using pattern parts.........

[Entwood]

Sorry for the double post 

Not a problem to me !

Glad to hear a) you are keeping well and active, b) problem is solved quickly and cheaply !!

IMHO with the ages of all the cars we try and keep going, pattern parts are going to become the only option on may occasions !!

[Viral_Jim]

James, before you go ahead with you switch, do you know if there is any kind of ECU learning on the fuel pump run time relative to fuel rail pressure (that DTM bloke might know). 

The reason I ask is that I remember reading in a Saab forum about people trying to lpg the GM 2.8T V6. One of the issues is that the Saab learns fuel pressure relative to fuel pump effort. So running on Lpg would cause the ECU to back off the fuel pump (as the rail pressure doesn't drop on Lpg) until Ultimtely the car would no longer run on petrol.

Just wondering if cutting off the fuel pump (so presumably 0v draw) could give you a similar issue. 

[JamesV6CDX]

Sorry for the double post 

Not a problem to me !

Glad to hear a) you are keeping well and active, b) problem is solved quickly and cheaply !!

IMHO with the ages of all the cars we try and keep going, pattern parts are going to become the only option on may occasions !!

Cheers, Nige

If it were an under-car job, I'd have likely sent it to Serek....but thankfully, just had to fold up the seats, remove some carpet and tie it up... and the pump is accessible from the top, via an access hatch! A little fiddly, but by no means difficult...  a novice to intermediate DIYer like me could take that on no problem

[JamesV6CDX]

James, before you go ahead with you switch, do you know if there is any kind of ECU learning on the fuel pump run time relative to fuel rail pressure (that DTM bloke might know). 

The reason I ask is that I remember reading in a Saab forum about people trying to lpg the GM 2.8T V6. One of the issues is that the Saab learns fuel pressure relative to fuel pump effort. So running on Lpg would cause the ECU to back off the fuel pump (as the rail pressure doesn't drop on Lpg) until Ultimtely the car would no longer run on petrol.

Just wondering if cutting off the fuel pump (so presumably 0v draw) could give you a similar issue. 

You raise a good point, and I'll check - thank you! i expect it will be fine, I did a long way with the fuel pump disconnected, and no ill effects, but I'll definitely look into it.

In all honesty, the fuel pump should be ok to run all the time, I was just considering ways to save / prolong it's life, given it's a pattern one, and to my knowledge, doesn't need to run when the car is on LPG

[Nick W]

In all honesty, the fuel pump should be ok to run all the time, I was just considering ways to save / prolong it's life,

It IS fine to run all the time, as it does when running on petrol.


BUT, it must be sitting in fuel, and pumping fuel. That's what keeps it cool.


As lots of LPG users rarely have more than a dribble of fuel in the tank, that often doesn't happen.

[Viral_Jim]

You raise a good point, and I'll check - thank you! i expect it will be fine, I did a long way with the fuel pump disconnected, and no ill effects, but I'll definitely look into it.

In all honesty, the fuel pump should be ok to run all the time, I was just considering ways to save / prolong it's life, given it's a pattern one, and to my knowledge, doesn't need to run when the car is on LPG

No worries, James - as you say I'm sure it will be fine.

Tbh I'm just glad to see you back on here and to hear you're well and obviously getting about the place 

[JamesV6CDX]

As lots of LPG users rarely have more than a dribble of fuel in the tank, that often doesn't happen.

Lesson learned  - the hard way 

[Marks DTM Calib]

James, before you go ahead with you switch, do you know if there is any kind of ECU learning on the fuel pump run time relative to fuel rail pressure (that DTM bloke might know). 

The reason I ask is that I remember reading in a Saab forum about people trying to lpg the GM 2.8T V6. One of the issues is that the Saab learns fuel pressure relative to fuel pump effort. So running on Lpg would cause the ECU to back off the fuel pump (as the rail pressure doesn't drop on Lpg) until Ultimtely the car would no longer run on petrol.

Just wondering if cutting off the fuel pump (so presumably 0v draw) could give you a similar issue. 

Looking at the fuel system schematics, its similar to the GM setups of the 90s.

So pump raises the pressure, this is controlled by the fuel pressure regulating valve which returns excess to the tank.

The systems that modulate the fuel pressure are usually direct injection setups 

[Doctor Gollum]

Sounds like the same set up as the Monaro