Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 30 January 2019, 12:31:24
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Apparently she has found a way to solve the problem of the backstop.Well done Theresa..... ::) ::) ::)
Anyone know what the alternative solution is?
Does she know?
Does it exist?
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It gives both sides (if they want to) the possibility of coming up with something which will always be a fudge to some degree.
I would imagine it will be along the lines of checks being done away from the border, whether physical checks, or trusted partners, customs paperwork done online, before despatch etc.
Its the kind of thing that happens all over the world these days, with the apprehension of serious smugglers coming from intelligence provided by informers and the like.
It puts the ball back in the EU,s court to a degree, and concentrates their minds on what happens if they don't compromise - i.e. they lose 39 billion quid for a start.
It will greatly upset Vardkar as he has talked the EU into allowing him to use the situation to bring Norn Irn to a position of one foot out of the UK and one foot into a untired Ireland.
If the men in Brussels can be talked out of this scenario and focused on the bigger picture, a deal could be done.
I suspect it could well happen, but only at the very last minute, and if the UK Parliament holds its nerve and ignores all the shite about a second vote and taking "no deal" off the table.
If no deal is taken off the table, the UK has no leverage whatsoever and has to take exactly what the EU decides it wants to give us.
If the backstop stays in the agreement, then when the future relationship deal is being negotiated, the EU will have it all their own way because the constant threat will be, if the UK doesn't sign up to xyz, then the backstop will have to come into force.
The backstop is constantly touted as the only way to preserve the Good Friday agreement. It actually destroys the Good Friday agreement, because the whole basis of the agreement is that the status of Norn Irn shall not be changed without the consent of the people there.
The backstop undeniably changes the status of Norn Irn.
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It gives both sides (if they want to) the possibility of coming up with something which will always be a fudge to some degree.
I would imagine it will be along the lines of checks being done away from the border, whether physical checks, or trusted partners, customs paperwork done online, before despatch etc.
Its the kind of thing that happens all over the world these days, with the apprehension of serious smugglers coming from intelligence provided by informers and the like.
It puts the ball back in the EU,s court to a degree, and concentrates their minds on what happens if they don't compromise - i.e. they lose 39 billion quid for a start.
It will greatly upset Vardkar as he has talked the EU into allowing him to use the situation to bring Norn Irn to a position of one foot out of the UK and one foot into a untired Ireland.
If the men in Brussels can be talked out of this scenario and focused on the bigger picture, a deal could be done.
I suspect it could well happen, but only at the very last minute, and if the UK Parliament holds its nerve and ignores all the shite about a second vote and taking "no deal" off the table.
If no deal is taken off the table, the UK has no leverage whatsoever and has to take exactly what the EU decides it wants to give us.
If the backstop stays in the agreement, then when the future relationship deal is being negotiated, the EU will have it all their own way because the constant threat will be, if the UK doesn't sign up to xyz, then the backstop will have to come into force.
The backstop is constantly touted as the only way to preserve the Good Friday agreement. It actually destroys the Good Friday agreement, because the whole basis of the agreement is that the status of Norn Irn shall not be changed without the consent of the people there.
The backstop undeniably changes the status of Norn Irn.
The vote last night narrowly did take 'no deal' from the table. However the vote is non-binding which presumably means it is still an option.
Noise from the EU is that the deal is already done and dusted and the time for negotiation has finished. So will TM be wasting her time?
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The impetus for the EU to try and hold their line on not reopening the agreement is the fact that much of the UK parliament is on their side and doing their dirty work for them.
To me its nothing short of treason, but unfortunately we can no longer hang the bastards.
I believe that most other countries in this situation would unite behind their Govt. for the good of their country, and then get back to party political slanging matches after the dust had settled. Many of our politicians unfortunately are lower than a snakes 'dangle berries' in a cart rut, and have no loyalty at all to their country or the people who vote for them.
I still believe its going to go down to the last minute of the last hour before we know whats going to happen. If we held our nerve (collectively) it would undoubtedly result in a better outcome, but we shall see.
As an aside - if the trade between the UK and the Republic of Ireland slowed to a trickle, Gob Geldof would have to organise one of his concerts to feed the starving in his own country.
We have leverage here, we just need to use it. Personally, I would build a wall and say fack em. :)
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If no deal is taken off the table, the UK has no leverage whatsoever and has to take exactly what the EU decides it wants to give us.
Exactly, I couldn't agree more, this is (or was) Her only and one Ace Card up Her sleeve, The EU dont wont it to end with a No Deal on the 29th, neither do We if the truth is known , but May's determination to to say this could be the only option is the real threat to to EU.
If May is forced to remove this option to please to the other idiots, She might as well go back to the EU with a Jar of Vaseline.
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If May is forced to remove this option to please to the other idiots, She might as well go back to the EU with a Jar of Vaseline.
I'm surpised that's not in short supply yet, the way "negotiations" have gone so far. ;D
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Theresa May holding a jar of vaseline. Now there an image to put you off your dinner. ;D
Mind you, it could be worse. She could be walking off with Jean Claude clutching it. :o
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If May is forced to remove this option to please to the other idiots, She might as well go back to the EU with a Jar of Vaseline.
I'm surpised that's not in short supply yet, the way "negotiations" have gone so far. ;D
I wouldn't worry about that Kevin, the EU have got tons of it to sell us if the need be. ;D
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If May is forced to remove this option to please to the other idiots, She might as well go back to the EU with a Jar of Vaseline.
I'm surpised that's not in short supply yet, the way "negotiations" have gone so far. ;D
I wouldn't worry about that Kevin, the EU have got tons of it to sell us if the need be. ;D
They won't be able to get it past the blockade! ::) ;D
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Possible money making scheme for Varche.
Vaseline smuggling. I will get working on a slick operation! :-[
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Liar May last night to get her renegotiation amendment through where she needed ERG support bought them off by promising Charles Crawford and a 2nd world leading WTO expert would lead the renegotiation for the UK with the EU. This morning where she had the vote passed liar May announced that only remainiacs her & Olly Rabbins would be involved in the negotiations. At some point in the near future liar May is going to come unstuck big time as you cannot indefinitely treat people like this. Therefore, don't expect anything positive to come from the negotiations apart from May & Robbins making things even worse. May & her grey suits have absolutely no intention in letting the UK leave the EU, in fact she is doing the reverse by locking us in permanently. Once you realise this, all that liar May does makes perfect sense. >:( >:( >:(
Economist Andrew Lilico who has done much work on austerity for the Tories with Osborne, rates at best, no deal at 51% chance and no Brexit at 49% chance. He says no Brexit will split the Tory party, where Brexiteer MPs will form a new party. May will shed no tears on killing her nasty party. :( :( :(
This total sh*t sandwich for the UK and 17.4m leavers is down to Gove stabbing Boris in the back with the help of his Daily Fail editor wife (which is why it is now a remainer rag that has lost as a result 17% of it sales in the UK), so remainiac May had a clear run to basically screw with her grey suits all us leavers. This is not going to end well with the current mood in the country, hence May looking at getting special public order powers. >:( >:( >:(
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Must say, I had wondered why ERG had changed their tune.
Interesting how some EU countries but not their politicians, are expressing concern about a hard Brexit. Ireland and Spain. One problem for Spain and the wine industry was the fall in the value of the pound plus supply issues . They are countering that by stockpiling Rioja now on British soil before end of March. I was surprised to see it reported on mainstream tv today
Merkel and Macron wont crack.
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The Telegraph are reporting that Juncker has been wagging his finger at the UK and has ordered us to pay the £39bn even if there is no deal! ::)
I think he has been checking out the wine cellar at Berlaymont and sampling the UK's portion that we generously agreed they could keep. :)
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My reading was that in a no deal we would pay the 39 anyway plus another 39. The EU plan to use it to mitigate fallout to North European EU countries from the Sky falling in. Tsunami of 39 metres, temp rise of 39 degrees, 39 less lettuces and so on
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I suspect that Mrs May and her 'advisors' have been extremely free and easy with £39bn of taxpayers money in an attempt to sweeten the deal, but to no avail. >:(
I don't have a problem with the UK paying any monies that are strictly legally due, even if it is hard to understand how we can owe any money at all given that we have been a net contributor for many years, but we should honour our legal obligations to the EU. If Poland decided to leave, I very much doubt that the EU would give them a nice lump sum payment as a leaving pressie! ::)
That said, about half of the £39 billion was for continued contributions for the so called transition/implementation period, so that obviously won't be due if that dosn't happen and suspect that much of the remainder is made up of 'goodwill' money. ::)
Don't forget that Barnier originally tried to tap us up for £100 billion! >:(
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We are what, the 3rd highest contributor to EU? Something like 13% of their entire income.
Wonder what EU will do with 13% drop in revenue, tap other countries up for more. :D
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Drunker needs the £39 Billion to pay his bar tab and some hush money for all those old birds he's touched up :o :o
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We are what, the 3rd highest contributor to EU? Something like 13% of their entire income.
Wonder what EU will do with 13% drop in revenue, tap other countries up for more. :D
They have changed their programmes down in places and I believe small increase from some member countries.
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We are what, the 3rd highest contributor to EU? Something like 13% of their entire income.
Wonder what EU will do with 13% drop in revenue, tap other countries up for more. :D
2nd ;)
I can't be bothered to look it up, but I believe that we contribute more than the 24 odd countries from the bottom of the list up put together. ???
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No deal will hurt the EU as much as it will hurt us (probably)
......'but the powers that be' believe the unity of the EU is more important than how many BMW's are sold in the UK.
I'm not sure the EU will blink.
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Germany is just about to fall into recession. This could have a bearing on things. At the end of the day, what the Germans say, the others tend to end up agreeing with.
We shall see.
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No deal will hurt the EU as much as it will hurt us (probably)
......'but the powers that be' believe the unity of the EU is more important than how many BMW's are sold in the UK.
I'm not sure the EU will blink.
I'm sure they won't blink.
I've never understood the BMW argument though. Imposing import tariffs (which we may or may not do) would increase the price of all imported cars by 10%. But if you've decided to buy a BMW, it's unlikely you're going to change your mind on price alone - you aren't going to suddenly decide to buy a Nissan, Honda or Toyota built in Britain just because it's suddenly 10% cheaper than the equivalent BMW or Merc. You'll just put off the purchase for a few weeks/years to save up more, or buy it on credit for 10% more per month. And in 10 years time when Nissan, Toyota and Honda have all bu99ered off to somewhere else in Europe, all cars will be 10% more expensive anyway because none will be being built here (except the low volume Garagistas).
Sure BMW/Merc sales in the UK will drop short/medium term, but so will all car sales. Which is bad for the auto sector in the UK, bad for tax and bad for GDP. Less cash swirling around the system. And how much BMW sales drop is guesswork - I'll say 20% for arguments sake. I'd take that if I were BMW because it also means sales of Nissan, Honda or Toyota in Euroland will drop due to the 10% increase in price there. So BMW stand a chance of picking up more sales in Euroland even if UK sales drop.
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I'm sure they won't blink.
Italy went into recession today.
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I'm sure they won't blink.
Italy went into recession today.
I thought Italy was always in recession. 8)
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I'm sure they won't blink.
Italy went into recession today.
I thought Italy was always in recession. 8)
Ha yes it seems that way.... ;D
It's the Eurozone's 3rd biggest economy and the EU's 4th biggest, has an unemployment rate of about 10% and a government that is probably most likely to say to the EU, Mama Mia! If you won't do a deal with the Brit's we will! Ciao! :o ::)
Unlikely I know, but these are extraordinary times..... :-\
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No deal will hurt the EU as much as it will hurt us (probably)
......'but the powers that be' believe the unity of the EU is more important than how many BMW's are sold in the UK.
I'm not sure the EU will blink.
They can't afford to blink. If they give us anything, their whole enterprise is oppsed. Anyone who thinks would be a good thing should be giving all their money to Elon to be first in his queue.
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He says no Brexit will split the Tory party, where Brexiteer MPs will form a new party. May will shed no tears on killing her nasty party. :( :( :(
Hmmm, yeah, I wonder what they could call it. Maybe the UK Independence Party, with a silly twit called Nige up front....
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Whatever happens , lets hope the emerging dominant party, after a shake up, works for the people. I wouldnt hold my breath as politics in the UK seems all about saying one thing and then ignoring the people. It might actually be a good thing for the country.
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There are a number of new small Brexit political parties forming at the moment which with the Internet & Social Media may like parties in mainland Europe grow quite quickly.
UKIP are a spend force where they are now a far right party with EDL founder Tommy Robinson a member. UK has traditionally shunned far right and left parties so they remain on the fringes of politics.
Where we subcontracted most national politics to the EU we have ended up with a bunch of MPs of the calibre of parish councillors now running the country as a result and this is going to have to change, if we leave the EU, as they can no longer blame them for all our problems. It is interesting that they are now for the last time saying the Withdrawal Agreement poor terms are all the EU's fault where we all know it is fu*kwit PM May and Snake Oily Robbins that have got us into this mess. ::) ::) ::)
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Vox, far right new party in Spain, certainly did in Andalucia , with virtually no campaign.
The ground feeling is more to come in May as people are fed up of being ignored by centre parties purporting to cater for everyone but in reality just ignoring them and still being corrupt.
My guess is that will be replicated throughout Europe in the May elections.
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The EU parliament elections in May will be very interesting! :y
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He says no Brexit will split the Tory party, where Brexiteer MPs will form a new party. May will shed no tears on killing her nasty party. :( :( :(
Hmmm, yeah, I wonder what they could call it. Maybe the UK Independence Party, with a silly twit called Nige up front....
National Farage Day or NF Day for short, it will be a National Holiday and we'll all be eating Thanks Given Turkey, .....Chinese Turkey .... from China
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He says no Brexit will split the Tory party, where Brexiteer MPs will form a new party. May will shed no tears on killing her nasty party. :( :( :(
Hmmm, yeah, I wonder what they could call it. Maybe the UK Independence Party, with a silly twit called Nige up front....
National Farage Day or NF Day for short, it will be a National Holiday and we'll all be eating Thanks Given Turkey, .....Chinese Turkey .... from China
Mmmm I hear the Chinese wash their poultry meat with used battery acid to kill the salmonella. :o
Chlorine is for them Yankee pussies! ;D
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He says no Brexit will split the Tory party, where Brexiteer MPs will form a new party. May will shed no tears on killing her nasty party. :( :( :(
Hmmm, yeah, I wonder what they could call it. Maybe the UK Independence Party, with a silly twit called Nige up front....
National Farage Day or NF Day for short, it will be a National Holiday and we'll all be eating Thanks Given Turkey, .....Chinese Turkey .... from China
Mmmm I hear the Chinese wash their poultry meat with used battery acid to kill the salmonella. :o
Chlorine is for them Yankee pussies! ;D
I wonder what the Yankees wash their Chinese in... :D
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where we all know it is fu*kwit PM May... ...that have got us into this mess. ::) ::) ::)
Why? How did you expect it to pan out? Who do you think could have sorted a significantly better deal?
Now I don't rate our Prime Minister. Not one bit. But surely nobody realistically expected a significantly better deal? Surely? What the Brexit Bus brigade were saying pre referendum, surely nobody swallowed that? Did they?
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Brexit has nothing to do with the country 'taking back control'
The referendum was a blunt instrument that Cameron used to appease the swivel-eyed on the right of his party. He thought he was on safe ground.
He made an error and we are where we are.
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Brexit has nothing to do with the country 'taking back control'
The referendum was a blunt instrument that Cameron used to appease the swivel-eyed on the right of his party. He thought he was on safe ground.
He made an error and we are where we are.
He actually called the referendum to stop UKIP taking away the Tory vote and letting Labour in.
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Exactly. He was losing voters, members and even MP,s to UKIP at an alarming rate. Nothing to do with the Tory right. They had been stamping their feet over the EU for decades and were completely ignored, as everyone knew when push came to shove, they would follow the party line.
Like him or loathe him, Farage is almost single handedly responsible for Brexit.
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Brexit has nothing to do with the country 'taking back control'
The referendum was a blunt instrument that Cameron used to appease the swivel-eyed on the right of his party. He thought he was on safe ground.
He made an error and we are where we are.
He actually called the referendum to stop UKIP taking away the Tory vote and letting Labour in.
Whatever the reason it has all worked out well. :)
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Exactly. He was losing voters, members and even MP,s to UKIP at an alarming rate. Nothing to do with the Tory right. They had been stamping their feet over the EU for decades and were completely ignored, as everyone knew when push came to shove, they would follow the party line.
Like him or loathe him, Farage is almost single handedly responsible for Brexit.
Would treason be an appropriate charge? ::) ::) ::)
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Give it fifty years and they will erect a statue on college green. ;)
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Give it fifty years and they will erect a statue on college green. ;)
I'll have been six feet under for decades so past caring. :)
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Like him or loathe him, Farage is almost single handedly responsible for Brexit.
And now he's seen that what he coined as Project Fear is a possible outcome, he's kept a very low profile ;D
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Exactly. He was losing voters, members and even MP,s to UKIP at an alarming rate. Nothing to do with the Tory right. They had been stamping their feet over the EU for decades and were completely ignored, as everyone knew when push came to shove, they would follow the party line.
Like him or loathe him, Farage is almost single handedly responsible for Brexit.
Farage isnt responsible. He just saw an opportunity. He certainly contributed to enough people voting out to tip the balance.
The real cause is successive governments and politicians in the UK ignoring the electorate. They are still doing it now. Have you been watching the 3 part documentary on Brexit.?
As for getting a better deal. Of course we could have had a better deal. It would have been hard to get a worse deal.
Farage is keeping a low profile and distancing himself from UKIP which has been hijacked by right wing nutters. He will resurface when the Tory party tear themselves in half.. i dont think it is from realising Project Fear is a possible outcome. There cannot be any people in the country that believe leaving wouldnt be without short term issues. What is totally inexcusable is our UK politicians ( aided by EU politicians) failed to promptly agree what Brexit should/ could be and then got on with it. It will be interesting to see how many trade agreements Liam Fox gets signed this year for example. We have been let down and let down badly by scaredy cats. Politics is no place for people frightened sh1 tless by change.
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Like him or loathe him, Farage is almost single handedly responsible for Brexit.
And now he's seen that what he coined as Project Fear is a possible outcome, he's kept a very low profile ;D
Low profile? He was causing mayhem in the European Parliament earlier this week, pissing himself laughing at all the shouty Eurocrats.
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He was indeed, and a couple of years ago it would have been all over the news bulletins, but it now gets completely ignored. :y
It got over 2 million views on youtube and other outlets in 24 hours though.
https://www.westmonster.com/2-million-views-in-24-hours-for-farage-defence-of-uk-despite-mainstream-blackout/
He didn't just see an opportunity. He saw what the establishment, the elite and the EU were up to well over 20 years ago and would not shut up or go away no matter what was thrown at him. He was banging on about all this stuff, long before he had any kind of media profile.
That only happened after he took UKIP from a small bunch of reactionary Thatcherites to a National party, knocking on the door of (and scaring the shite out of) the big two.
I notice the criminal case against the Tories who ignored election law to stop him getting into Parliament was finally concluded a couple of weeks ago. The main players threw the office manager under the bus, and she was then convicted, but spared prison because of her husbands health, or some other similar feeble excuse..
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Health? Or wealth?
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Health? Or wealth?
Either or... :-X
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It would be funny as f... if Verhofstadt loses his seat in the EU parliament elections in May! ;D
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where we all know it is fu*kwit PM May... ...that have got us into this mess. ::) ::) ::)
Why? How did you expect it to pan out? Who do you think could have sorted a significantly better deal?
Now I don't rate our Prime Minister. Not one bit. But surely nobody realistically expected a significantly better deal? Surely? What the Brexit Bus brigade were saying pre referendum, surely nobody swallowed that? Did they?
Yep, up to 52% of the voting public who voted Leave! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)
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Biggest reason people voted leave, was so we can hire and fire, at the ballot box, the politicians that set UK political policy & make our laws. :y :y :y Where politicians & parties get stale and more corrupt (with power) over time, it is vital that you can then replace them in smooth transitions of power and they don't stray too far of an acceptable political path and that the legal system and enforcement is independent of the government and executive. :y
None of this applies in dictatorships including the one that is steadily growing in power in Brussels. I'm sure that national politicians think they can control a much more extreme (especially an increasingly hard right wing Brussels) with a big army, police & judicial system under their control, but an important lesson in history is that is what Franz von Papen said he would do to control Hitler and we know how that one ended. :o :(
I hope when the EU fails it does so reasonably peacefully and doesn't cause too many wars with their neighbours like USSR/Russia has. The UK has spilt enough blood and treasure having to sortout two centuries of mainland European geopolitics and wars, with no thanks from the people we helped, we don't need any more of this.
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Biggest reason people voted leave, was so we can hire and fire, at the ballot box, the politicians that set UK political policy & make our laws.
I don't think that is the case, from the discussions I've had.
Virtually everybody I've spoken to who voted leave was to curb immigration and to put that £349m a day into the NHS...
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Biggest reason people voted leave, was so we can hire and fire, at the ballot box, the politicians that set UK political policy & make our laws. :y :y :y
And what a superb selection we have to choose from! Even the most delusional ambitious(I'm feeling generous tonight) Tories can't bring themselves to fire May as they all know nobody can make Brexit worthwhile.
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Biggest reason people voted leave, was so we can hire and fire, at the ballot box, the politicians that set UK political policy & make our laws.
I don't think that is the case, from the discussions I've had.
Virtually everybody I've spoken to who voted leave was to curb immigration and to put that £349m a day into the NHS...
conversely - Ive never met anyone who voted leave for those reasons.
As for the latest Nissan story. I think Macron is pulling the strings behind the scenes on that one.
He seemed keen to get hold of the strings. His intentions were obvious three years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/02/nissan-warns-france-over-interference-with-renault-alliance
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For once I believe the Nissan retreat is due to Brexit but of course not in the way most will think.
Eu( including Britain for a few months) has signed a trade deal with Japan. Cars built in Japan will be cheaper as no WTO tariffs. After Brexit without a trade deal with the EU ( which will take about a thousand years to agree) no point in being in the UK.
I do blame this weeks cold snap on Brexit. There hasnt been much hot air this last week from politicians. It is vaguely warmer now due to T.May saying she has got some “ideas” ;D
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For once I believe the Nissan retreat is due to Brexit but of course not in the way most will think.
Eu( including Britain for a few months) has signed a trade deal with Japan. Cars built in Japan will be cheaper as no WTO tariffs. After Brexit without a trade deal with the EU ( which will take about a thousand years to agree) no point in being in the UK.
I do blame this weeks cold snap on Brexit. There hasnt been much hot air this last week from politicians. It is vaguely warmer now due to T.May saying she has got some “ideas” ;D
Yes I agree with that and although the remain crowd will be screaming from the rooftops that we need another referendum or stay in the single market/customs union, this shows that the big corps can sell successfully into the EU from the outside with an FTA. :y
One wonders where we would be now if our politicians and civil servants had embraced a clean break with a comprehensive FTA right from the start rather than fanny about trying to keep us as close as possible with 'common rule books' etc ::)
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One wonders where we would be now if our politicians and civil servants had embraced a clean break with a comprehensive FTA right from the start rather than fanny about trying to keep us as close as possible with 'common rule books' etc ::)
Up to our armpits in US supplied bleached chicken, growth hormone'd beef and with hiked prices for NHS drugs I would imagine. The Don has already covered these areas as key demands from an FTA, and we'd acquiesce. Because we'd be in dire need of the deal and a good news story.
With the EU? Who can say...
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One wonders where we would be now if our politicians and civil servants had embraced a clean break with a comprehensive FTA right from the start rather than fanny about trying to keep us as close as possible with 'common rule books' etc ::)
Up to our armpits in US supplied bleached chicken, growth hormone'd beef and with hiked prices for NHS drugs I would imagine. The Don has already covered these areas as key demands from an FTA, and we'd acquiesce. Because we'd be in dire need of the deal and a good news story.
With the EU? Who can say...
Up to our armpits in US supplied bleached chicken, growth hormone'd beef and with hiked prices for NHS drugs I would imagine as in a customs union with the EU we would have no control over the access they give third countries to our markets. The Don has already covered these areas as key demands from an FTA, and the EU would acquiesce in the case of the UK only. Because they'd be in dire need of a deal to revive their failing economies. ;)
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Could a solution to rhe Northern Ireland problem be to continue trade as is but with EU determining their rules and the UK using similar for say two years then if an entity wants to change its rules e.g. wash turkeys in engine oil, give notice of change and then the buying partner could say no to buying the product from the implementation date.?
Perhaps havent explained that very well but surely it is in the interests of both sides of the channel to have as frictionless trade as possible. I.e. common sense especially for Ireland.
Maybe it boils down to the EU cannot allow that as it may lead to a breakup of the EU.
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Could a solution to rhe Northern Ireland problem be to continue trade as is but with EU determining their rules and the UK using similar for say two years then if an entity wants to change its rules e.g. wash turkeys in engine oil, give notice of change and then the buying partner could say no to buying the product from the implementation date.?
Perhaps havent explained that very well but surely it is in the interests of both sides of the channel to have as frictionless trade as possible. I.e. common sense especially for Ireland.
Maybe it boils down to the EU cannot allow that as it may lead to a breakup of the EU.
That'll never catch on... :D
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Eu( including Britain for a few months) has signed a trade deal with Japan. Cars built in Japan will be cheaper as no WTO tariffs. After Brexit without a trade deal with the EU ( which will take about a thousand years to agree) no point in being in the UK.
Conversely, cars built in the UK will be more expensive, any not just by the 10% WTO. Which is why those 7000 are now nervous, along with the estimated 14000 who's jobs directly rely on Nissan in the UK.
That's why all manufacturers, not just automotive, are lobbying against a no deal exit. They are run by people bright enough to know that a no deal exit spells the end of their businesses, certainly in the UK.
But remember, we were promised the EU would roll over so we could have our cake and eat it, with us being such a significant insignificant rock in the North Sea. So fingers crossed, surely the EU will back down, give us an immediate trade deal, and also give us a £40b divorce settlement.
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Eu( including Britain for a few months) has signed a trade deal with Japan. Cars built in Japan will be cheaper as no WTO tariffs. After Brexit without a trade deal with the EU ( which will take about a thousand years to agree) no point in being in the UK.
Conversely, cars built in the UK will be more expensive, any not just by the 10% WTO. Which is why those 7000 are now nervous, along with the estimated 14000 who's jobs directly rely on Nissan in the UK.
That's why all manufacturers, not just automotive, are lobbying against a no deal exit. They are run by people bright enough to know that a no deal exit spells the end of their businesses, certainly in the UK.
But remember, we were promised the EU would roll over so we could have our cake and eat it, with us being such a significant insignificant rock in the North Sea. So fingers crossed, surely the EU will back down, give us an immediate trade deal, and also give us a £40b divorce settlement.
Yes TB, I have just seen a pink pig flying across the English Channel, as no doubt all the car parts that criss cross Europe will do! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)
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If the Japanese can build a Motor Car in Japan, ship it to Europe and sell it into a totally different regulatory environment to their own, without paying an extortionate annual fee for the privilege or forced to apply all the rules and regs of the EU to Japans domestic economy, then I'm damn sure we could too! :y
I say could, because what's missing is the will, the appetite for change and a pervading pessimistic negative attitude that seems to infest the establishment and boardrooms of this country. ::)
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I say could, because what's missing is the will, the appetite for change and a pervading pessimistic negative attitude that seems to infest the establishment and boardrooms of this country. ::)
Yes, they've clearly misunderstood the correct Brexit procedure of not doing any planning whatsoever and just hoping for the best. Or whatever else their competitors might allow them. Where has proper sixties British management gone?
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Eu( including Britain for a few months) has signed a trade deal with Japan. Cars built in Japan will be cheaper as no WTO tariffs. After Brexit without a trade deal with the EU ( which will take about a thousand years to agree) no point in being in the UK.
Conversely, cars built in the UK will be more expensive, any not just by the 10% WTO. Which is why those 7000 are now nervous, along with the estimated 14000 who's jobs directly rely on Nissan in the UK.
That's why all manufacturers, not just automotive, are lobbying against a no deal exit. They are run by people bright enough to know that a no deal exit spells the end of their businesses, certainly in the UK.
But remember, we were promised the EU would roll over so we could have our cake and eat it, with us being such a significant insignificant rock in the North Sea. So fingers crossed, surely the EU will back down, give us an immediate trade deal, and also give us a £40b divorce settlement.
I think your insignificant rock in the North Sea about sums it up. Instead of being proud of our position of 5 th or 6th world economy and our heritage and our abilities on the world stage ( yes we are world leaders in some areas!) we just roll over and say without the EU we are nothing.
You are right about why would the EU agree anything . It is in their interests to crush the UK for having the temerity to leave their Reich sorry ever greater federal state.
Anyway it is academic as T. May has an idea which is actually pre agreed and we will capitulate and be tied in forever.
39 billion is about 1000 pounds per working person. A lot isnt it!
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This 5th or 6th in the world economy grates a bit with me, because our schools and hospitals and social care (where this wealth should be apparent) are in a bad way. It's no good simply generating wealth, it needs to be used for the good of the people, not for lining the pockets of elite.
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Oh......and let's see where we rank in a year or two.
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Oh......and let's see where we rank in a year or two.
Still ahead of Ireland...
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Oh......and let's see where we rank in a year or two.
Still ahead of Ireland...
The Isle of Man will be ahead of Ireland :)
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Oh......and let's see where we rank in a year or two.
Still ahead of Ireland...
The Isle of Man will be ahead of Ireland :)
Really? :o. And there was me thinking Ireland is one of the big economies of the world! :-\ ::)
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This 5th or 6th in the world economy grates a bit with me, because our schools and hospitals and social care (where this wealth should be apparent) are in a bad way. It's no good simply generating wealth, it needs to be used for the good of the people, not for lining the pockets of elite.
Well that has been the way since the start of the Industrial Revolution (or should that be since the dawn of arristocracy) Steve, so I reckon we have to wait for that People's Revolution that seems to be always in the offing but never transpires ::)
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Oh......and let's see where we rank in a year or two.
Still ahead of Ireland...
The Isle of Man will be ahead of Ireland :)
Really? :o. And there was me thinking Ireland is one of the big islands of the world! :-\ ::)
Even Iceland is bigger... ;D
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Instead of being proud of our position of 5 th or 6th world economy
And take away our biggest market? For all its flaws, the EU has generally been good for the UK's standard of living.
39 billion is about 1000 pounds per working person. A lot isnt it!
Damn sight cheaper than that white elephant being paid for buy all of us to line the pockets of HS2 Ltd ;)
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This 5th or 6th in the world economy grates a bit with me, because our schools and hospitals and social care (where this wealth should be apparent) are in a bad way. It's no good simply generating wealth, it needs to be used for the good of the people, not for lining the pockets of elite.
The trouble with that level of socialism, without dictatorship, is there aren't enough rich people to pay for those who don't/can't work. True socialism/communism has never been tried here (or arguably globally, as there is usually corruption), but could never work alongside democracy.
Maybe its the way I was brought up, but I don't believe in short term gains tied to long term pains. Hence I think the deficit does need paying off. However (assuming approx. 20m people in full time employment), I can't afford my share of the £2t of £100,000 (and growing by £150 a month).
Not that I know what the answer is. But its going to get significantly worse in the short/medium term.
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Instead of being proud of our position of 5 th or 6th world economy
And take away our biggest market? For all its flaws, the EU has generally been good for the UK's standard of living.
What makes you think that the UK and EU are going to cease trading with each other ? ???
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What makes you think that the UK and EU are going to cease trading with each other ? ???
They won't. But it will be reduced. Clearly.
Even if you can get a free trade agreement - unlikely in the immediate short term - the extra bureaucracy will make UK companies uncompetitive in Europe.
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What makes you think that the UK and EU are going to cease trading with each other ? ???
They won't. But it will be reduced. Clearly.
Even if you can get a free trade agreement - unlikely in the immediate short term - the extra bureaucracy will make UK companies uncompetitive in Europe.
But no one needs to worry as we will be again the Great Britain and China, Russia and the USA will be falling over each other to buy our goods........ Our pavements will soon be covered in gold. ::) ::) ::) :P
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What makes you think that the UK and EU are going to cease trading with each other ? ???
They won't. But it will be reduced. Clearly.
Even if you can get a free trade agreement - unlikely in the immediate short term - the extra bureaucracy will make UK companies uncompetitive in Europe.
But no one needs to worry as we will be again the Great Britain and China, Russia and the USA will be falling over each other to buy our goods........ Our pavements will soon be covered in gold. ::) ::) ::) :P
And we might be able to sell a couple of Land Rovers to the commonwealth islands of Where the hell did you say this place was? That's 09:05 on March 30th sorted, what do we do then ::)
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Start flogging them all the parts they'll need to fix the broken Land Rovers we've just flogged them ;D ;D
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Start flogging them all the parts they'll need to fix the broken Land Rovers we've just flogged them ;D ;D
Perhaps we could export them from Ramsgate? A pair of Land Rovers and some spares would probably be a decent load for the boats running out of there.
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What makes you think that the UK and EU are going to cease trading with each other ? ???
They won't. But it will be reduced. Clearly.
Even if you can get a free trade agreement - unlikely in the immediate short term - the extra bureaucracy will make UK companies uncompetitive in Europe.
But no one needs to worry as we will be again the Great Britain and China, Russia and the USA will be falling over each other to buy our goods........ Our pavements will soon be covered in gold. ::) ::) ::) :P
Our ROW trade balance outside of the EU is positive where we export more in goods and services compared to what we import. The problem is the EU where we have a massive and growing trade imbalance to the tune of £100bn a year. If you look at how the main EU countries have always stacked the deck against us you would understand why. France has always blocked a single market in services which would have done much to restore our trade balance. :(
BTW in the 1980s & 1990s I exported to all three of those countries, especially the USA, along with about 50 others, including all of Europe including Eastern Europe, Canada, a few South America countries (where Spanish imports at lower prices into Spain caused a few, but solvable problems), Israel and a couple of other Middle Eastern countries. some North African mediterranean rim countries, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, India & Pakistan. China was particularly difficult where things not only had to meet their technical standards but also pass their political censorship. About 85-90% of our turnover came from exports. Exporting is not difficult as trading is mutually beneficial to both parties, but getting paid was always much more challenging especially in some of the more far flung countries, compared to the UK.
One of the UK's strengths for the last 4-500 years has always been as a global free trading island nation and all UK governments still put great emphasis on exports with practical help, market assessments and their export guarantee scheme.
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Start flogging them all the parts they'll need to fix the broken Land Rovers we've just flogged them ;D ;D
Perhaps we could export them from Ramsgate? A pair of Land Rovers and some spares would probably be a decent load for the boats running out of there.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
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Do they have Land Rovers in a special place in hell?
If so we could export parts to them.
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Do they have Land Rovers in a special place in hell?
If so we could export parts to them. ;D
Well, they are supposed to go anywhere and whether it'll get you back again isn't a concern.
Does the sat nav have a German / Polish language option? ;D
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Do they have Land Rovers in a special place in hell?
If so we could export parts to them. ;D
Well, they are supposed to go anywhere and whether it'll get you back again isn't a concern.
Does the sat nav have a German / Polish language option? ;D
Why not their native Slovakian? :)
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When I heard what tusk said I was initially very angry then I calmed down and realised that it only confirmed my belief of just how utterly contemptuous that cabal is of democracy .
Any hope or belief that these " leaders " of the eu are free of any malevolence towards those that seek to extricate themselves from under their self proclaimed control should be washed away by his conduct today.
The fact that he ,as the president of the ec, he feels that statements like that are acceptable at such a difficult time for all concerned shows his lack of any respect for the people that he has been negotiating with for so long , and most likely the attitude that he and his fellow cohorts have adopted bethind closed doors .
They disgust me .
And as for that nefarious little squeek varadker, he reminds me of that odious little insignifiLady bits little boy in the playground who has three big brothers to back him up when he exploits his fellow pupils .
I firmly believe that ireland will ultimately pay a price for all their shenanigans .
" when ye sup with the devil ...."
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A football hooligan and a drunk running the EU. Their true colours are starting to show, and even remainers must surely see them for the nasty, self-interested little tw**s that they are. If/when we leave, there's no doubt that things will be tough for a while but, in wartime, things are tough and I feel that they are as big a threat to this country's sovereignty as any potential invader.
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When I heard what tusk said I was initially very angry then I calmed down and realised that it only confirmed my belief of just how utterly contemptuous that cabal is of democracy .
Any hope or belief that these " leaders " of the eu are free of any malevolence towards those that seek to extricate themselves from under their self proclaimed control should be washed away by his conduct today.
The fact that he ,as the president of the ec, he feels that statements like that are acceptable at such a difficult time for all concerned shows his lack of any respect for the people that he has been negotiating with for so long , and most likely the attitude that he and his fellow cohorts have adopted bethind closed doors .
They disgust me .
And as for that nefarious little squeek varadker, he reminds me of that odious little insignifiLady bits little boy in the playground who has three big brothers to back him up when he exploits his fellow pupils .
I firmly believe that ireland will ultimately pay a price for all their shenanigans .
" when ye sup with the devil ...."
I agree with all you say. But, is Tuskie boy right in asking why the Brexiteers like boffoon Boris did not have a plan on paper about what Brexit would look like?
I know I may get an unfriendly reaction to that, but the question should be asked, although it will do sweet fa now to have that answer! ::) :D ;)
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Very deep. What's a boffoon?
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They had a plan but it was Non, Nein ,nay and naw to all and any part of it by those that wanted it and any subsequent plan to crash and fail.
I'd REALLY like to see the transcripts of the meetings that took place during the last two years .
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To me, Tusks remarks show a degree of fear, panic and desperation starting to show.
WTO terms it is. Bring it on. :)
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To me, Tusks remarks show a degree of fear, panic and desperation starting to show.
WTO terms it is. Bring it on. :)
I thought he was going to cry with frustration ;D
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Very deep. What's a boffoon?
My version of a buffoon, but one with a hairstyle like Boris or Trump! :D :D ;)
Now you know ;D ;D :)
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I have said for years now ,even before our departure was sanctioned by those that matter , that if that coterie had been less autocratic and sanctimonious in their attitude towards the UK we wouldn't be where we are .
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When I heard what tusk said I was initially very angry then I calmed down and realised that it only confirmed my belief of just how utterly contemptuous that cabal is of democracy .
Any hope or belief that these " leaders " of the eu are free of any malevolence towards those that seek to extricate themselves from under their self proclaimed control should be washed away by his conduct today.
The fact that he ,as the president of the ec, he feels that statements like that are acceptable at such a difficult time for all concerned shows his lack of any respect for the people that he has been negotiating with for so long , and most likely the attitude that he and his fellow cohorts have adopted bethind closed doors .
They disgust me .
And as for that nefarious little squeek varadker, he reminds me of that odious little insignifiLady bits little boy in the playground who has three big brothers to back him up when he exploits his fellow pupils .
I firmly believe that ireland will ultimately pay a price for all their shenanigans .
" when ye sup with the devil ...."
I agree with all you say. But, is Tuskie boy right in asking why the Brexiteers like boffoon Boris did not have a plan on paper about what Brexit would look like?
I know I may get an unfriendly reaction to that, but the question should be asked, although it will do sweet fa now to have that answer! ::) :D ;)
Good question Lizzie. The vote was in or out. Plain and simple. What the out plan looked like was down to our useless politicians to agree AFTER the vote . This they singularly failed to do.
What is clear is leaving the club that is the EU is not easy and you have to ask why. Plain and simple, leaving wasnt ever going to be easy. I think if we had adopted the Euro as advocated by some supposedly eminent stalwarts, it would have been virtually impossible. Our politicians should have led the negotiations instead we faffed about sacking or causing the negotating team to resign. They, led by Theresa May should hang their heads in shame.
Ask yourself , Did Britain have the answer or plan for winning any of the wars they entered into on Day two? I will perhaps get flamed for using a war analogy but it is Project Fear (Remainers) who repeatedly ram it down our throats that the sky is going to fall in, there will be no lettuces, we wont be able to go on a European holiday as the planes will not be flying ad infinitum. All folk that you would want to surround yourself with in a crisis self inflicted or not and yet that is exactly what we have done. It dorsnt bode well for say a Russian incursion. Parliament would spend two years agreeing nothing other than to perhaps agree to then fight them on whatever terms they offered...........
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You can use the war analogy all you like, I did on the last page ::)
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Thanks 🙏 🙏
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Ah, project fear.
I remember that in it's previous incarnation.
We were all going to be struck down with terminal brain tumours by holding our mobile phones to our ear
Mmm.
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To me, Tusks remarks show a degree of fear, panic and desperation starting to show.
WTO terms it is. Bring it on. :)
I thought he was going to cry with frustration ;D
Yes the arrogant little shit isn't so smug now is he? ::)
Mind you there will be a few twists and turns before 29th March, so anything could happen yet! :-\
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To me, Tusks remarks show a degree of fear, panic and desperation starting to show.
WTO terms it is. Bring it on. :)
Maybe because they will miss the payments made by the UK
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Good question Lizzie. The vote was in or out. Plain and simple. What the out plan looked like was down to our useless politicians to agree AFTER the vote . This they singularly failed to do.
What is clear is leaving the club that is the EU is not easy and you have to ask why. Plain and simple, leaving wasnt ever going to be easy. I think if we had adopted the Euro as advocated by some supposedly eminent stalwarts, it would have been virtually impossible. Our politicians should have led the negotiations instead we faffed about sacking or causing the negotating team to resign. They, led by Theresa May should hang their heads in shame.
I'd like to know what kind of moron agrees to something so important with no idea what the plan is for afterwards? What's absolutely staggering is that 17million decided that it was OK. 17 oppsing million!!!!! Our useless politicians(and I do agree with you there) are nothing more than we deserve.
Negotiating with the EU was never going to go well; 1 against 27 is a piss poor situation to volunteer for, and the EU as a group cannot afford to be seen giving in to us.
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Well that is spoken by people who like everything laid out in black and white and by people who fear uncertainty. I am sorry to say it but that is how I see it.
Using the war scenario if parliament or the people had had a say in how to proceed with the Falklands war we would never have even left the UK let alone won.
In simple terms despite leaving the EU and getting back “ control” being so blatantly the right thing to do, we are a nation of yitten folk frightened of change. Maybe staying in the EU and having our future determined by the likes of Juncker , Tusk Verhofstadt is all we deserve. At least we wouldnt have any pesky decisions to make.
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Good question Lizzie. The vote was in or out. Plain and simple. What the out plan looked like was down to our useless politicians to agree AFTER the vote . This they singularly failed to do.
What is clear is leaving the club that is the EU is not easy and you have to ask why. Plain and simple, leaving wasnt ever going to be easy. I think if we had adopted the Euro as advocated by some supposedly eminent stalwarts, it would have been virtually impossible. Our politicians should have led the negotiations instead we faffed about sacking or causing the negotating team to resign. They, led by Theresa May should hang their heads in shame.
I'd like to know what kind of moron agrees to something so important with no idea what the plan is for afterwards? What's absolutely staggering is that 17million decided that it was OK. 17 oppsing million!!!!! Our useless politicians(and I do agree with you there) are nothing more than we deserve.
Negotiating with the EU was never going to go well; 1 against 27 is a piss poor situation to volunteer for, and the EU as a group cannot afford to be seen giving in to us.
What I find staggering is that some , moronic , elements of the populace cannot grasp that this is the culmination of a power struggle of immense proportions between a clique of powerful individuals who hold sway over many countries all on the pretence of "free trade".
The 17.4 million , one of which I am , had the strength of character to decide that there is a bit more at stake here than having the ability to buy a fresh lettuce in January .
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Very nicely put. :y
Financial concerns are one of the elements of this, and an important one, but by no means the most important.
If people cant fathom there are more important things in life than money, then the human race has little hope.
Those , btw are the words of the Financial Director of the company I work for, when we spoke about this last week.
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Negotiating with the EU was never going to go well; 1 against 27 is a piss poor situation to volunteer for, and the EU as a group cannot afford to be seen giving in to us.
I think they are realising that they've over played their hand, hence Tusk lashing out yesterday. ::)
In other news, there were reports yesterday that the 'backstop' might be illegal under EU law, as A50 provides for a 'framework' for future relations and we've ended up with a legally binding protocol in the Withdrawal Agreement that deals with the future relationship.
If we cast our minds back to June 2017 (hard for some I know!) David Davis wanted to run two sets of negotiations concurrently to deal with the withdrawal and the future FTA, but Barnier refused saying that the EU couldn't negotiate a future relationship with a current member as a point of EU law, but then went on to insist on the backstop. A slight contradiction? ???
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Negotiating with the EU was never going to go well; 1 against 27 is a piss poor situation to volunteer for, and the EU as a group cannot afford to be seen giving in to us.
I think they are realising that they've over played their hand, hence Tusk lashing out yesterday. ::)
In other news, there were reports yesterday that the 'backstop' might be illegal under EU law, as A50 provides for a 'framework' for future relations and we've ended up with a legally binding protocol in the Withdrawal Agreement that deals with the future relationship.
If we cast our minds back to June 2017 (hard for some I know!) David Davis wanted to run two sets of negotiations concurrently to deal with the withdrawal and the future FTA, but Barnier refused saying that the EU couldn't negotiate a future relationship with a current member as a point of EU law, but then went on to insist on the backstop. A slight contradiction? ???
Which is what I have been saying all along... There can be no deal until we have left.
The current 'discussion' is simply* to lay the foundation for the negotiation that cannot happen before March 30th.
*not to belittle the significance, but this is the sole purpose of the current argument, which is rather moot because gov.uk seem to have spectacularly overlooked this detail ;D
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When I heard what tusk said I was initially very angry then I calmed down and realised that it only confirmed my belief of just how utterly contemptuous that cabal is of democracy .
Any hope or belief that these " leaders " of the eu are free of any malevolence towards those that seek to extricate themselves from under their self proclaimed control should be washed away by his conduct today.
The fact that he ,as the president of the ec, he feels that statements like that are acceptable at such a difficult time for all concerned shows his lack of any respect for the people that he has been negotiating with for so long , and most likely the attitude that he and his fellow cohorts have adopted bethind closed doors .
They disgust me .
And as for that nefarious little squeek varadker, he reminds me of that odious little insignifiLady bits little boy in the playground who has three big brothers to back him up when he exploits his fellow pupils .
I firmly believe that ireland will ultimately pay a price for all their shenanigans .
" when ye sup with the devil ...."
I agree with all you say. But, is Tuskie boy right in asking why the Brexiteers like boffoon Boris did not have a plan on paper about what Brexit would look like?
I know I may get an unfriendly reaction to that, but the question should be asked, although it will do sweet fa now to have that answer! ::) :D ;)
Good question Lizzie. The vote was in or out. Plain and simple. What the out plan looked like was down to our useless politicians to agree AFTER the vote . This they singularly failed to do.
What is clear is leaving the club that is the EU is not easy and you have to ask why. Plain and simple, leaving wasnt ever going to be easy. I think if we had adopted the Euro as advocated by some supposedly eminent stalwarts, it would have been virtually impossible. Our politicians should have led the negotiations instead we faffed about sacking or causing the negotating team to resign. They, led by Theresa May should hang their heads in shame.
Ask yourself , Did Britain have the answer or plan for winning any of the wars they entered into on Day two? I will perhaps get flamed for using a war analogy but it is Project Fear (Remainers) who repeatedly ram it down our throats that the sky is going to fall in, there will be no lettuces, we wont be able to go on a European holiday as the planes will not be flying ad infinitum. All folk that you would want to surround yourself with in a crisis self inflicted or not and yet that is exactly what we have done. It dorsnt bode well for say a Russian incursion. Parliament would spend two years agreeing nothing other than to perhaps agree to then fight them on whatever terms they offered...........
Now that is an interesting question. Once Winston took up the role of PM in May 1940 he did have an outline of what had to be done; first keep Germany out of Britain by using the new RAF planes, the Spitfire in particular and using radar that during the late thirties had been identified as being essential for any future (inevitable) war with Hitler, and also increasing the strength of the Royal Navy. Then survival, pure and simple, was the plan, trying hard to get the Americans in to join the fight that Winston worked hard to do with the nightmare of the Battle of the Atlantic taking a dreadful toll. Then, after the USA joined the war on 11th December 1941, one of the main discussions and planning objectives by the Joint Chief of Staffs was an invasion of Europe to drive the Germans out. Thus various planning started on what D-Day would look like back in 1942, with the Dieppe raid on 19th August 1942 a (costly) experiment to see what a sea bourne landing would have to achieve, and the minimum of resources that MUST be deployed. That, with all the other very detailed planning, that also featured the North Africa and Sicily campaigns, led to the 6th June 1944.
So, in short, Winston Churchill coalition Government, yes often living by the seat of their pants, did have very clear objectives and serious plans were constructed that would eventually achieve Victory. Note the "coalition" approach, which used all the strengths of the political system in Britain; that is what has been missing with Brexit, along with clear plans and objectives by Boris Johnson and crew. Winston Churchill achieved his Victory by good managerial practice, detailed planning, training, communication, activation, motivation, monitoring and rectification / modification as required. I have to admit that although Mrs May has done her best, her management of the challenge in hand has been woeful and lacked the desire, until very recently, to form a coalition of opinions, suggestions, and action. In short it has been woolly and weak management, for which I would in business replace that team with another who could give me the results. ;)
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Which is what I have been saying all along... There can be no deal until we have left.
The current 'discussion' is simply* to lay the foundation for the negotiation that cannot happen before March 30th.
*not to belittle the significance, but this is the sole purpose of the current argument, which is rather moot because gov.uk seem to have spectacularly overlooked this detail ;D
The foundation to the final negatiations is important, though. There's a difference between the negotiations towards that final "deal" happening on a foundation of no deal actually meaning the train running off the tracks for both parties at the end of the transition, against the foundation being that we get endlessly stuck in the EUs "legally binding" backstop if we can't reach agreement, or the EU decide they like it that way and just prevaricate endlessly.
We aren't actually negotiating untll both parties can see a negative outcome looming which negotiation will avert.
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When I heard what tusk said I was initially very angry then I calmed down and realised that it only confirmed my belief of just how utterly contemptuous that cabal is of democracy .
Any hope or belief that these " leaders " of the eu are free of any malevolence towards those that seek to extricate themselves from under their self proclaimed control should be washed away by his conduct today.
The fact that he ,as the president of the ec, he feels that statements like that are acceptable at such a difficult time for all concerned shows his lack of any respect for the people that he has been negotiating with for so long , and most likely the attitude that he and his fellow cohorts have adopted bethind closed doors .
They disgust me .
And as for that nefarious little squeek varadker, he reminds me of that odious little insignifiLady bits little boy in the playground who has three big brothers to back him up when he exploits his fellow pupils .
I firmly believe that ireland will ultimately pay a price for all their shenanigans .
" when ye sup with the devil ...."
I agree with all you say. But, is Tuskie boy right in asking why the Brexiteers like boffoon Boris did not have a plan on paper about what Brexit would look like?
I know I may get an unfriendly reaction to that, but the question should be asked, although it will do sweet fa now to have that answer! ::) :D ;)
Good question Lizzie. The vote was in or out. Plain and simple. What the out plan looked like was down to our useless politicians to agree AFTER the vote . This they singularly failed to do.
What is clear is leaving the club that is the EU is not easy and you have to ask why. Plain and simple, leaving wasnt ever going to be easy. I think if we had adopted the Euro as advocated by some supposedly eminent stalwarts, it would have been virtually impossible. Our politicians should have led the negotiations instead we faffed about sacking or causing the negotating team to resign. They, led by Theresa May should hang their heads in shame.
Ask yourself , Did Britain have the answer or plan for winning any of the wars they entered into on Day two? I will perhaps get flamed for using a war analogy but it is Project Fear (Remainers) who repeatedly ram it down our throats that the sky is going to fall in, there will be no lettuces, we wont be able to go on a European holiday as the planes will not be flying ad infinitum. All folk that you would want to surround yourself with in a crisis self inflicted or not and yet that is exactly what we have done. It dorsnt bode well for say a Russian incursion. Parliament would spend two years agreeing nothing other than to perhaps agree to then fight them on whatever terms they offered...........
Now that is an interesting question. Once Winston took up the role of PM in May 1940 he did have an outline of what had to be done; first keep Germany out of Britain by using the new RAF planes, the Spitfire in particular and using radar that during the late thirties had been identified as being essential for any future (inevitable) war with Hitler, and also increasing the strength of the Royal Navy. Then survival, pure and simple, was the plan, trying hard to get the Americans in to join the fight that Winston worked hard to do with the nightmare of the Battle of the Atlantic taking a dreadful toll. Then, after the USA joined the war on 11th December 1941, one of the main discussions and planning objectives by the Joint Chief of Staffs was an invasion of Europe to drive the Germans out. Thus various planning started on what D-Day would look like back in 1942, with the Dieppe raid on 19th August 1942 a (costly) experiment to see what a sea bourne landing would have to achieve, and the minimum of resources that MUST be deployed. That, with all the other very detailed planning, that also featured the North Africa and Sicily campaigns, led to the 6th June 1944.
So, in short, Winston Churchill coalition Government, yes often living by the seat of their pants, did have very clear objectives and serious plans were constructed that would eventually achieve Victory. Note the "coalition" approach, which used all the strengths of the political system in Britain; that is what has been missing with Brexit, along with clear plans and objectives by Boris Johnson and crew. Winston Churchill achieved his Victory by good managerial practice, detailed planning, training, communication, activation, motivation, monitoring and rectification / modification as required. I have to admit that although Mrs May has done her best, her management of the challenge in hand has been woeful and lacked the desire, until very recently, to form a coalition of opinions, suggestions, and action. In short it has been woolly and weak management, for which I would in business replace that team with another who could give me the results. ;)
To be honest, I half expected the Queen to announce her government and opposition was a shower and to dissolve parliament and put Charley boy in charge and then have elections in April.
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There would be some grumbling, but although they are our representation, they are first and foremost HER government...
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There would be some grumbling, but although they are our representation, they are first and foremost HER government...
Some grumbling? ??? The outrage would be spectacular! :o ::)
An event definitely worth getting the popcorn out for! ;D
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Some random points on Brexit.
If we leave on WTO terms, the delicious irony will be that it is Gina Millers fault. She went to court to force the Govt. to have all these votes in Parliament, every step of the way. If she hadn't done that, May could have signed off the deal she did without having it rejected by Parliament.
I have been saying for quite a while that the Backstop, which is said to have the purpose of preserving the Belfast agreement, is in clear breach of the same agreement. This due to the fact that the most basic principle of the agreement is that the status of Norn Irn within the UK, cannot be changed unless consent is given by the electorate of Norn Irn.
The backstop will change the status of Norn Irn within the UK.
Lord David Trimble has now recognised this and is in the process of taking legal action against the Govt. over it.
While all the publicity yesterday was around Tusks opinions on Brexiteers going to hell something much worse, imo, didn't get much publicity at all.
Varadkar was seen given Juncker a large card from Irish people with a special message written inside.
The text in the card included statements which said "for the first time Ireland is more powerful than Britian". Britian isn't interested in peace in Norn Irn, they just see it as a nuisance".
Conformation to me, if it was needed, that the Republic of Ireland is a hostile state and should be treated as such. And its leaders can never ever be trusted.
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I don't think Varadker's behaviour will have gone unnoticed by HMG. We'd only have to tell him to stuff his Irish beef up his little, well worn, brown arsehole to send them into recession.
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I don't think Varadker's behaviour will have gone unnoticed by HMG. We'd only have to tell him to stuff his Irish beef up his little, well worn, brown arsehole to send them deeper into recession.
Fixed ;)
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If the Rep. of Ireland is the reason we can't leave the EU, I wonder if things will start going boom again? This time, not thanks to the IRA but thanks to the BNP/etc..
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Unlikely, although it must be said they are basing everything on the assumption that they must appease Republican terrorists while ignoring the possible threat from "loyalist" terrorists.
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I watched an episode of a BBC programme recently which was a documentary on the run up to the referendum and Brexit.
It showed (as though it is perfectly normal behaviour) the British PM going several times to Europe to ask permission from the German Chancellor to have some kind of limit on immigration. The German Chancellor replied "nein".
If the British PM has to ask permission from the German Chancellor to have some small degree of control over who can or cant come to the UK, what was the point of all those poor British souls who lie under the soil in Europe, sacrificing their lives ?
To me, principles like this are infinitely more important than any possible financial considerations.
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Spot on. The sad reality is we live in a greed society where maybe 90% of the populace are only interested in will I be better off if there is a change. Those that appreciate the situation are either intelligent folk that have thought it through or older people who still remember the terrible cost of keeping our sovereignty.
We are watching that documentary. Part one was very interesting. As Olympia xxxx said, it would be interesting to see the notes of meetings and to have been a fly on the wall prior .
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Just heard a great word on the news. Guy was talking about going back to the people and he said something like "We can't keep having the people vote until we get the desired result........a Neverendum"
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I've lived in Ireland for many years now. It's only since the advent of Brexit that I've seen, read and heard a deep and well rooted vitriol towards the Brits .
The Irish I know and live amongst are warm hearted and very friendly but the country a a whole has an embedded dislike bordering on hatred for the Brits . This , I believe , is fueled by a constant drip feed of images , commemorations and reflections on the famine of 170 years ago . A period of 4 to 5 years that elevated the Brits to a position of disdain that even the Einsatzgruppen couldn't dream of. If you couple this with the events of 100 years ago where they achieved Sovereignty from Britain there is a reservoir of historical collective dislike easily tapped into as and when required.
The country , as a whole , is in a collective mess with desperate housing shortages, health service failings of a monumental scale , ongoing widespread police corruption , despictable deeds commited by the Catholic church upon the neediest of people but ignored by a state that goes hand in hand with the perpetrators , a political elite that believe they are world players fuelled by the over taxation of 4 million people and so much much more . You will not read of this in the UK because , well , because Eire doesn't matter to the UK in reality.
In the past the bufoon like leaders focused on their own post official wealth and prior to the advent of social media and the only alternative being two channel state TV, was nigh on impossible for the electorate to grasp what they were actually doing day to day.
Varadker is different , he has to divert attention from the morass that he and his fellow tribal trough eaters are slowly sinking into and now is his 15 minutes of fame .
My wife runs a company that sources a lot of their day to day products from UK . They have recieved some basic rudimentary instructions as to what is " advised " if a hard Brexit occurs . She mocked the simplistic and totally ineffective advice that some " department " sent them.
She doesn't want Brexit because it will make her job immensely more difficult . Taking that as an example it shows me that the rank and file of business Ireland see a huge headache looming and all down to the intransigence and pomposity of a little squeek.
They say that they want a united Ireland , I think they would shit themselves pink if that happened . To suddenly have an additional 1.8 million people ,who have had no experience of living the life of eire , become as one with their brethern in the south will be " interesting".
In fact , with the political savvy honed over generations in the North , it may be the rottweiler that eats the poodle , so to speak ......
PS I CBA doing a spellcheck so if my spelling has offended any of you petals , I don't care .
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I've lived in Ireland for many years now. It's only since the advent of Brexit that I've seen, read and heard a deep and well rooted vitriol towards the Brits .
The Irish I know and live amongst are warm hearted and very friendly but the country a a whole has an embedded dislike bordering on hatred for the Brits . This , I believe , is fueled by a constant drip feed of images , commemorations and reflections on the famine of 170 years ago . A period of 4 to 5 years that elevated the Brits to a position of disdain that even the Einsatzgruppen couldn't dream of. If you couple this with the events of 100 years ago where they achieved Sovereignty from Britain there is a reservoir of historical collective dislike easily tapped into as and when required.
The country , as a whole , is in a collective mess with desperate housing shortages, health service failings of a monumental scale , ongoing widespread police corruption , despictable deeds commited by the Catholic church upon the neediest of people but ignored by a state that goes hand in hand with the perpetrators , a political elite that believe they are world players fuelled by the over taxation of 4 million people and so much much more . You will not read of this in the UK because , well , because Eire doesn't matter to the UK in reality.
In the past the bufoon like leaders focused on their own post official wealth and prior to the advent of social media and the only alternative being two channel state TV, was nigh on impossible for the electorate to grasp what they were actually doing day to day.
Varadker is different , he has to divert attention from the morass that he and his fellow tribal trough eaters are slowly sinking into and now is his 15 minutes of fame .
My wife runs a company that sources a lot of their day to day products from UK . They have recieved some basic rudimentary instructions as to what is " advised " if a hard Brexit occurs . She mocked the simplistic and totally ineffective advice that some " department " sent them.
She doesn't want Brexit because it will make her job immensely more difficult . Taking that as an example it shows me that the rank and file of business Ireland see a huge headache looming and all down to the intransigence and pomposity of a little squeek.
They say that they want a united Ireland , I think they would shit themselves pink if that happened . To suddenly have an additional 1.8 million people ,who have had no experience of living the life of eire , become as one with their brethern in the south will be " interesting".
In fact , with the political savvy honed over generations in the North , it may be the rottweiler that eats the poodle , so to speak ......
PS I CBA doing a spellcheck so if my spelling has offended any of you petals , I don't care .
Thanks, that is very interesting and gives a great perspective on Eire as well as Brexit.
We certainly do not get that insight in the UK. :y :y
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Lizzie, I think it is very difficult to get a balanced view in any European country of what is going on. We are fed what the media want us to know.
I follow the Spanish papers and how the same thing is reported varies between papers and countries. I have posted about the monumental financial corruption scandals in Spain but they barely get a mention in the UK. One was an EU funded youth training scheme which consumed 775 million of our money with nothing to show for it. Five years of investigation, 500 interviewed, no one charged and crucially not a cent of our money recovered. Business as usual.
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There has been some name calling and clear nastiness on this thread, and others, over it all. I know people are passionate and genuinely believe other viewpoints are obviously wrong, but keep it civil, else draconian options will follow.
I think the only thing with universal backing is that everyone knew Westminster's attempts to implement the outcome would be a predictable cock-up. Anything else, just be mindful.
Thanks.
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Nastiness and name calling. Sounds like Tusk and Theresa. ::)