Topic: I'm Worried - VERY worried (Read 3776 times)

Markie · « **on:** 20 April 2007, 19:16:58 »

About the veccy cambelt :-/

Should the adjuster/ idler be able to move on its on by hand with belt in place.

Cams and tensioner dont.....

Also cams DONT seem to me to line up if it was cranked round tdc.....

Theres no leaks on tensioner and no play in belt.... :-/

STMO123 · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 April 2007, 19:18:37 »

Wait for Marks DTM on this one Markie

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 April 2007, 19:34:15 »

Well for starters....rotate the crank another 360deg ......the cams are 180 deg out....

When you say you can move the tensioner....can you feel some spring tension...

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 April 2007, 19:35:53 »

Also.....what is the number/letters cast into the bottom of one of the webs on that tensioner/idler back plate....

Ronald_McBurger · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 April 2007, 19:37:10 »

Yes, agreed. Cams are 180 degrees out.

Markie · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 April 2007, 19:37:55 »

Quote

Well for starters....rotate the crank another 360deg ......the cams are 180 deg out....

When you say you can move the tensioner....can you feel some spring tension...

.....i've only just taken the cover off - toucnd nothing.... :-/ the top idler spins round by finger without the belt moving but the belt is taught...

this looks bad doesnt it..

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 April 2007, 19:39:43 »

Read that info off the backplate....it should be 01....but it might be EB.....

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 April 2007, 19:41:50 »

Another question....have you turned the crank at all.....if so, did you turn it anticlockwise at all....

Markie · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 April 2007, 19:44:11 »

Quote

Another question....have you turned the crank at all.....if so, did you turn it anticlockwise at all....

no crank has not been turned - i know its clockwise only too....

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 April 2007, 19:45:41 »

Whats stamped on the tensioner backplate then.....

Markie · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 April 2007, 19:49:36 »

Quote

Whats stamped on the tensioner backplate then.....

cam sprockets/ backplates the part number.......... 90573286 then 0037219 at a seperate part for all 4 cams.

Top idler 337185 a then france 90573616

need anything else?
edit
going to check that back plate itself....

Markie · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 April 2007, 20:01:22 »

no other writing that i can see......

from this picture its ONLY the top idler that rotates on its own - nothng else does......

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 April 2007, 20:07:53 »

Yes but, something looks odd with the top idler position.....if you look at the silver cast backing plate that the idler adn tensioner are mounted on.....in between the two stamped inside one of the webs is two digits which tell you what type of setup is fitted.....its these two digits I need...

The top idler might be rotating on its own simply because of the cam positions.....and the varying load on the belt as they go over centre...

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 April 2007, 20:20:36 »

I am asking this question by the way as I suspect it has the wrong tensioner assembly fitted, it looks like the early one (EB) and hence why the the top idler is not between the cams....

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 April 2007, 20:31:46 »

On closer inspection, the timings dont look massively out of time....think cranks closer to needing 440 ish deg turn...

Markie · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 April 2007, 20:32:31 »

Quote

I am asking this question by the way as I suspect it has the wrong tensioner assembly fitted, it looks like the early one (EB) and hence why the the top idler is not between the cams....

hmmmm been back out and cant find anything at all even had her indoors check with me. Used mirror to even check parts i cant see....light now failing so need to check again tomorrow...

I cant possibly see how this car cant have engine damage from that set up do you ?

Also are there any other backing plates that may be unmarked ie some form of non vx or cheap version?

I was always under the assumption - maybe wrong - that any car with cam issues wouldnt start?

Markie · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 April 2007, 20:35:20 »

Quote

Quote
I am asking this question by the way as I suspect it has the wrong tensioner assembly fitted, it looks like the early one (EB) and hence why the the top idler is not between the cams....

that would also explain why the belt is slightly looser around the left of the tensioner wouldnt it......not significant play but more than the rest of the belt which seems fine..

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 April 2007, 20:42:16 »

Heres a pic of the two types of back plate (I have not re-sized it so you can still see the detail), hopefully you can see where the digits are in the middle....the top one is the type that should be fitted....and I am 99% sure its not......I would say there is a low risk of damage as the timing looks fairly close.....it needs the crank winding around as said to check properly....

Markie · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 April 2007, 21:00:44 »

had another look - theres definatley something engraved in there as you say - need to check in morning..

Its definately not 01 and probably more like eb - but a lower case "e" rather than captial :-/

bearing in mind i cant get the backing plate for crank off and oil cooler is fitted now, can i carry on change the water pump and progress as i intended, or does it realy need cranked by hand before starting? I just need to pick up those banjo bolts tomorrow to complete the job. Car has done an accurate 44k and if its got wrong backing plate would suggest work has been done in this area since it left the factory.

Car has never gone in my time but when i bought it the car did start and tick over albeit roughly...no wonder with a duff radiator / oil cooler and all that sludge.

Thanks Mark

Ronald_McBurger · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 April 2007, 21:35:32 »

Unusually, again I agree with Mark here. Something looks wrong with the position of the top idler. EB is what should be stamped, not eb. I again suspect iot may be the wrong back plate or that the top idler has worked loose.

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #20 on:** 20 April 2007, 21:44:35 »

I'd suggest if it was running rough it's more likely to be because of the cam timing being all over the place than the oil cooler / radiator issues.

Having done the work to get to the cam belt I would at least make sure the cam timing is OK and the belt correctly tensioned before putting it back together.

Kevin

Markie · « **Reply #21 on:** 20 April 2007, 22:41:32 »

hmm i knew that would be the answer - the one i didnt want....frankly cambelts scare me - its the one thing i avoid in a car and thats even with the excellent DVD. Also i cant get the plate off for crank......

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #22 on:** 20 April 2007, 22:56:36 »

I know what you're saying. It's not nice when a job snowballs into something bigger than you expected, especially if it takes you outside your "comfort zone" but I've also lobbed things back together when I had a gut feeling that something wasn't right and that leaves a feeling of dread too.

At least if you know you've been thorough you can (eventually) put it all together knowing it's not going to come back to haunt you.

Kevin

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #23 on:** 20 April 2007, 22:57:23 »

Mate, bite the bullet, for a 44k car.... get a new belt, tensioners and pump

Markie · « **Reply #24 on:** 20 April 2007, 23:04:41 »

awwwwww jeeeeeez i can feel a twitch in my wallet....

You know that fear we all in something that always seems to have stemmed from childhood - think thats where i get my cambelt fear from.... saw it done wrongly when i was 13.....

must overcome my fear - must do cambelt - dont think i can see a therapist for this

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #25 on:** 20 April 2007, 23:13:10 »

At the end of the day 3 simple rules will ensure that it goes OK:

If you need to turn the cams on their own make sure the crankshaft is turned off the TDC position (back to 60 degrees before on a V6)

Turn the engine 2 turns and make sure the marks all line up again at TDC. Repeat as necessary. Start again as necessary. Once you've turned it through 2 turns and it all lines up you're good to go.

Before you put it all back together ensure that the tensioner bolts and all other fasteners under the cam cover have been correctly torqued and that the spring tensioner is set correctly.

Kevin

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #26 on:** 21 April 2007, 07:16:01 »

Oil cooler is a bigger challenge than the cambelt.....

I would turn the crank to see how far out of time the cambelt is as aready said....do you know when the cambelt was hanged, it looks fairly new....if it is new then we might be able to sort something out with a replacement tensioner plate...

Markie · « **Reply #27 on:** 21 April 2007, 09:23:00 »

Quote

Oil cooler is a bigger challenge than the cambelt.....

I would turn the crank to see how far out of time the cambelt is as aready said....do you know when the cambelt was hanged, it looks fairly new....if it is new then we might be able to sort something out with a replacement tensioner plate...

Well the guy that i bought it from - had no clue about these things he believed it needd 2 new heads - said about 40k just after he bought it - which means about 7/ 8 months ago....

Same old story though - no proof in writing. But like you i really do think that backing plate and the tensioners look really new.

Markie · « **Reply #28 on:** 21 April 2007, 14:02:41 »

ok todays progress - decided to remove brand new thermostat and have now also taken water pump off.

Surprisingly little came out from water pump... about a mug of very thick sludge and half a mug of water. Jacked car up and also left it level and also jacked passenger side only an an attempt to bleed every last drop out

Now flushed as best i can from coolant slot through to water pump outlet and very comprehensivley cleaned both. With the use of a filter warm water is running from stat housing out water pump outlet ( into a container) and its clear.

So now back on with the stat / housing etc and fit new water pump.

Also got new banjo bolts and i will put 2 new ones on oil cooler pipes and also coolant bridge. Peace of mind and all that.

and then.... :-/

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #29 on:** 21 April 2007, 14:20:01 »

....turn the crank until its at TDC and check the cam timing marks...

Markie · « **Reply #30 on:** 21 April 2007, 14:42:27 »

Quote

....turn the crank until its at TDC and check the cam timing marks...

30mm spanner?

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #31 on:** 21 April 2007, 14:51:45 »

E20 torx......

Markie · « **Reply #32 on:** 21 April 2007, 15:34:18 »

Quote

E20 torx......

what am i thinking of that needs 30mm....?

Also 30nm for cooler bolts? 1 of the last ones snapped on reuse - torqued to 30nm and they werent overtightened - could that be because they were reused?

Got brand new ones...or can i get away with torquing them to 28 or so to avoid a repeat?

Thanks

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #33 on:** 21 April 2007, 15:45:32 »

Needs to be 30Nm + 30deg....

Markie · « **Reply #34 on:** 21 April 2007, 21:05:18 »

Quote

Needs to be 30Nm + 30deg....

absolutely spot on with the new bolts - i went back and removed cooler bolts and replaced with new ones and also did th bridge bolts

I havent turned my attention yet to crank, want to get the top end back together first. Gave up - sore and hungry - trying to put air intakes back on....they are a pain.

So tomorrow i should crack intake system, and plug the coolant system back in and fill her up. Then onto trying to remove those two stubborn crank bolts. Water pump done too.

Must admit not looking forward to tomorrows jobs and on top of that i have to reassemble the aux belt

the pully bolts are in an unbelievable position!!

Huge thanks today, and yesterday to Mark DTM - Priceless advice as ever

Markie · « **Reply #35 on:** 22 April 2007, 15:26:26 »

ok the update to this....

I cant get the cover plate for crank off - still two remaining bolts. e12 takes them off - no chance.

Iv tried freeze and release ive tried penetrating fluid overnight. Ive tried the biggest breaker bar i have ( 2 feet)

clearly there over tightened, and air tooled i bet.

So what now.....any other thoughts to removing them - untill i do i cant get it to tdc to check that timing... :-/

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Author Topic: I'm Worried - VERY worried (Read 3776 times)

STMO123

Ronald_McBurger

Ronald_McBurger