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Author Topic: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed  (Read 3702 times)

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polilara

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Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« on: 17 September 2021, 10:15:53 »

This is quite strange for me. Now checked all eight track rod ends, new tires balanced twice, rims and tires do not have axial or radial swing. It starts somewhere 60 km/h and continues up to 130km/h (not possible to go higher speeds legally). Gear box and engine mounting rubbers ok. If I put N (autobox) in 130km/h and engine idling does not change situation. I feel this slight vibration everywhere in the car. Is prop rubber joints and the "holder bearing" in the center part. Please help.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #1 on: 17 September 2021, 10:24:43 »

I'd be inspecting the propshaft first. Then the diff mounts and driveshafts. Check the fluid levels while you're there.
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polilara

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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #2 on: 17 September 2021, 10:29:23 »

Thanks, if prop can I remove it without removing exhaust. Prop joints seem tight when I bend them with Iron bar. Central prop bearing rubber have play up and down when I move it with my hands only. Diff oil not checked within last two years. If it is dry can it vibrate?
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Andy H

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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #3 on: 17 September 2021, 10:41:53 »

Uneven wear of poor quality front brake discs caused my Omega to vibrate.

Initially it would begin at around 80mph+ (130k?) but as it got worse it would begin at slower speeds.

By the time I changed the front discs it was starting at about 60mph/100k - I was pleasantly surprised when the shacking stopped because I didn't believe it could be the cause  :)
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Nick W

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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #4 on: 17 September 2021, 10:52:06 »

Thanks, if prop can I remove it without removing exhaust. Prop joints seem tight when I bend them with Iron bar. Central prop bearing rubber have play up and down when I move it with my hands only. Diff oil not checked within last two years. If it is dry can it vibrate?


My car got noticeably quieter and smoother after I 'topped up' the diff with 1litre of oil. I've had the same with manual gearboxes.


Andy makes a good point about the brakes, so it's probably worth checking them too, even if all you do is thoroughly clean the mounting surfaces.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #5 on: 17 September 2021, 12:16:36 »

The speeds described tend to point more towards the sprung items than the prop (which tends to have issues at different lower speeds due to the diff ratio)

You have checked the obvious, but how about the shocks, they can cause a minor unnoticeable wheel balance issue to become very pronounced at those speeds.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #6 on: 17 September 2021, 12:24:09 »

Not uncommon to see cars with one back wheel bouncing along the road because that shock has failed...

Which is, in itself, a worry :-\
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #7 on: 17 September 2021, 12:43:20 »

In my experience, gearboxes, propshafts and diffs whine or grumble rather than shake the car. This is because they're revolving at several times the speed of the road wheels (depending on the diff ratio).

If you can feel it through the steering wheel, then its probably front wheel related - tyres, rims, brake disks, shox, track rods, ball joints, centre tie bar.

If it's shaking the whole car equally, then rear wheels are more likely - so rear tyres, rims, brake disks, rear shox.

I've got two stories related to the LC. First one was a vibration under light braking through the whole car. Turned out to be one of the rear brake disks (which are vented) had cracked in the venting. This allowed the two halves of the brake disk to spread apart slightly. You noticed when you first applied the brakes lightly, but it would stop under heavy braking (because the two halves of the disk got squashed back together again). Then on lift off the vibration would continue for a while until the pistons/pads had been 'knocked back' far enough so as to not hit the brake disk. AIUI the 2.6 has vented rear disks? Might be worth checking the run out on both the inside and outside faces of the two rear disks.

Second story took me several years to locate. On hitting any sort of pot hole the steering would vibrate quite violently for 10-15 seconds. You could stop the vibration with a slight dab of the brakes. I'd replaced most of the front end of the car - Wishbones, track rods, brakes, brake disks, shox, top mounts, drop links, roll bar bushes etc. Nothing fixed it. Then finally I'd decided to replace the power steering box, and to do that I had to take the centre steering tie bar off. The ball joint in that was rubber ducked.   
« Last Edit: 17 September 2021, 12:46:00 by LC0112G »
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Eyal2002

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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #8 on: 18 September 2021, 18:46:02 »

Had same issue, took many parts to replace but the solution wasn't a part at all. Same "whole car" vibration even in N, and definetly under accelleration.
As it turned out, the prop rubber at each end connect to diff (back) and gear (front), and when they were replaced the mechanic connected them "wrong", and I will try to explain.
The rubber doughnut has six holes arranged in 3 pairs (It is worth checking this, everyone, all you need is a flashlight), and the rule is as follows: Front or rear, when you flash light on that rubber coupling, look at the botton 2-hole pair (thicker area), the prop shaft must connect to the right hole (ie NOT the left). Sounds like a silly observation? well, looking at other cars, and some YouTube "expert" mechanics videos, many miss this rule and connect the prop shaft bolts to the left whole in each 2-hole pair (again, when pair facing down towards road). It looks fine, but generate vibrations and leads to accelerated failure if these rubber couplings. I know some OOF members will see their propshaft connected wrong. BTW that mechanic said he didn't think there is a difference with regards to which hole to use... I have photos if someone is interested.
« Last Edit: 18 September 2021, 18:48:39 by Eyal2002 »
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Eyal2002

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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #9 on: 18 September 2021, 19:13:53 »


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polilara

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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #10 on: 20 September 2021, 17:39:54 »

Thanks for all tips, I think I start from rear discs as they are badly corroded and should be changed anyway due to MOT in Nov. -21. My prop shaft was off some years ago due to change of rear crank seal. I believe it is correctly fitted but could you explain how it should be; three bolts in gear and diff. If one of the three in diff side point down should one of the three point down also in hear side or what this fig is showing to me. Explanation needed please.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #11 on: 21 September 2021, 07:09:05 »

If you split the prop shaft when it was removed, it's possible that you reassembled it out of balance.

It has a master spline to prevent this, but it is possible to misalign it.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #12 on: 21 September 2021, 09:33:17 »

Thanks, OK, prop was not split so that's then ok. I did not understand the drawing and thought perhaps wrong the whole thing. Next week I have new rear discs, report then.
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Andy H

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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #13 on: 21 September 2021, 13:08:59 »

One more to consider.

My wife's Galaxy developed fierce vibration through the steering and front of the car when a CV joint became worn.

It came on steadily over a 350 mile drive from Cornwall to Kent. The damn thing was barely drivable on the return journey a few days later.

I know the Omega isn't front wheel drive but it DOES have CV joints.

Just an idea.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #14 on: 21 September 2021, 17:55:01 »

Thanks, I pay attention to that, too, when changing rear discs next week.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #15 on: 21 September 2021, 18:08:55 »

Thanks for all tips, I think I start from rear discs as they are badly corroded and should be changed anyway due to MOT in Nov. -21. My prop shaft was off some years ago due to change of rear crank seal. I believe it is correctly fitted but could you explain how it should be; three bolts in gear and diff. If one of the three in diff side point down should one of the three point down also in hear side or what this fig is showing to me. Explanation needed please.

OK, typed here is same for diff and gear sides, but focus on diff:
Connect donut to diff, and as the photo shows bolts go into donut and diff entering towards rear of car (so nuts come from back). As you hold the rubber donut, identify the three 2-hole pairs (thicker area for each), and have one pair point towards the floor/road. Put a bolt through the LEFT hole and into the diff, secure loosly for now with a nut. I assume the car is rear jacked or in a lift. Rotate the rear wheels and again do the  LEFT hole to diff for the other two 2-hole pairs. As you look at the donut, prop bolts always go to the RIGHT hole when the thick donut area point downwards. Not that with the prop to donut mating the bolts enter behind the donut so the nuts in the prop connection are holding the prop (study the photo closely).

I installed my prop on and off many times, always with the car lifted (not jacks). This way gear was in Neutral plus the rear would spin by hand (easier than try to rotate the diff by hand). Also, it was impossible to insert the donut-to-prop bolts from the rear unless you find that sweet spot where it is possible, I would say  when you face the donut, it is in its 4 o'clock position IIRC. To tighten I use a spanner to holt bolt/nut behind the donut and in front I used 1/2" air impact wrench with 2 long extensions to get a down angle if exhaust is intact (and often a friend on the spanner).
Lastly, try use paint or white correction fluid to mark 3 lines on one of the prop to donut mating and two lines for diff to donut, for future reference.

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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #16 on: 22 September 2021, 08:08:46 »

Thanks for all tips, I think I start from rear discs as they are badly corroded and should be changed anyway due to MOT in Nov. -21. My prop shaft was off some years ago due to change of rear crank seal. I believe it is correctly fitted but could you explain how it should be; three bolts in gear and diff. If one of the three in diff side point down should one of the three point down also in hear side or what this fig is showing to me. Explanation needed please.
In summary:

Each face of the donuts has three raised portions.

The bolts are inserted from the high side.

The low side sits against the flange (gearbox/diff/prop shaft).

The nut is always fitted to the rear of the flange, and not the donut.
Not sure you could actually fit the shaft if it was assembled with the flange against the high side :-\

Anyhoo, the original problem cannot be prop shaft related as it is apparent at road speeds not engine speeds...  ::)

So... In no particular order:

1. Tyres: correctly fitted and balanced?
2. Wheels: true and free from buckles?
3. Discs: True and actually round?* Not warped?
4. Hubs: faces clean? Bearings sound?
5. Drive shafts: play in the CVs?

*there's a reason genuine discs are more expensive... They tend to actually machine them with a degree of accuracy compared to £15 Amazon specials :D
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #17 on: 22 September 2021, 14:49:03 »

Thanks for all tips, I think I start from rear discs as they are badly corroded and should be changed anyway due to MOT in Nov. -21. My prop shaft was off some years ago due to change of rear crank seal. I believe it is correctly fitted but could you explain how it should be; three bolts in gear and diff. If one of the three in diff side point down should one of the three point down also in hear side or what this fig is showing to me. Explanation needed please.
In summary:

Each face of the donuts has three raised portions.

The bolts are inserted from the high side.

The low side sits against the flange (gearbox/diff/prop shaft).

The nut is always fitted to the rear of the flange, and not the donut.
Not sure you could actually fit the shaft if it was assembled with the flange against the high side :-\

Anyhoo, the original problem cannot be prop shaft related as it is apparent at road speeds not engine speeds...  ::)

So... In no particular order:

1. Tyres: correctly fitted and balanced?
2. Wheels: true and free from buckles?
3. Discs: True and actually round?* Not warped?
4. Hubs: faces clean? Bearings sound?
5. Drive shafts: play in the CVs?

*there's a reason genuine discs are more expensive... They tend to actually machine them with a degree of accuracy compared to £15 Amazon specials :D

My money's on this, it is perfectly possible to balance a buckled wheel but it will shake the car to pieces on the road.  Had this with more than one pre-facelift MV6 (made of toffee) wheels.
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polilara

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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #18 on: 22 September 2021, 16:38:42 »

Thanks for all tips, I think I start from rear discs as they are badly corroded and should be changed anyway due to MOT in Nov. -21. My prop shaft was off some years ago due to change of rear crank seal. I believe it is correctly fitted but could you explain how it should be; three bolts in gear and diff. If one of the three in diff side point down should one of the three point down also in hear side or what this fig is showing to me. Explanation needed please.
In summary:

Each face of the donuts has three raised portions.

The bolts are inserted from the high side.

The low side sits against the flange (gearbox/diff/prop shaft).

The nut is always fitted to the rear of the flange, and not the donut.
Not sure you could actually fit the shaft if it was assembled with the flange against the high side :-\

Anyhoo, the original problem cannot be prop shaft related as it is apparent at road speeds not engine speeds...  ::)

So... In no particular order:

1. Tyres: correctly fitted and balanced?
2. Wheels: true and free from buckles?
3. Discs: True and actually round?* Not warped?
4. Hubs: faces clean? Bearings sound?
5. Drive shafts: play in the CVs?

*there's a reason genuine discs are more expensive... They tend to actually machine them with a degree of accuracy compared to £15 Amazon specials :D

My money's on this, it is perfectly possible to balance a buckled wheel but it will shake the car to pieces on the road.  Had this with more than one pre-facelift MV6 (made of toffee) wheels.

This is interesting, I have original 2001 alloy wheels so let's see. How "Toffee" they can be as your MV6 ones? I install soon brand new and well balanced winter tires with their own alloy wheels so that most propaply can then tell something.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #19 on: 25 September 2021, 10:59:57 »

The so called Toffee wheels are Irmscher 17" multispokes as fitted to MFL UK MV6 cars in dark grey with a polished rim, also available direct from Irmscher in silver.

The spokes were relatively thin and distort quite easily compared to most wheels, hence the name.

If you have these on your car, they were almost certainly fitted aftermarket :y

The wheels fitted to the early face-lift MV6  (same size but a dished version of the early face-lift Elite wheel) contains about three times the metal and are almost bombproof.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #20 on: 25 September 2021, 14:06:15 »

Ok, thanks, I do not have those but original ones. They are good. New rear discs came yesterday, install them next week. BUT new finding, I might have another vibration, too: Today I was driving only 60 km/h and felt that vibration in my autobox selector with my fingers, cruise on. When I put cruise off that vibration disappeared immediately. Speed started to decrease an put cruise on again and vibration was back. Tested several times. When "force" is on there is vibration. Can this be something torque converter related or prop related. Torque converter was off together with autobox some years ago when rear crank seal was changed. Could loosen torque converter cause this?
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #21 on: 25 September 2021, 15:03:16 »

Gearbox mount ;)
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #22 on: 25 September 2021, 15:15:00 »

Gearbox mount is "loose", box tail moves up and down when I pull or push it and gear selector moves front and back when I drive in road having flatness problems. How tight this mount should be?
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #23 on: 25 September 2021, 16:30:39 »

Gearbox mount is "loose", box tail moves up and down when I pull or push it and gear selector moves front and back when I drive in road having flatness problems. How tight this mount should be?


you should have to really heave on the end of the gearbox to move it up and down. If it moves easily, then the mount isn't doing its job.


Easy and reasonably cheap fix: fit a new mount
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #24 on: 25 September 2021, 16:43:04 »

Ok, thanks Nick W, I change it, you skipped my torque converter theory?
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #25 on: 25 September 2021, 17:14:47 »

Ok, thanks Nick W, I change it, you skipped my torque converter theory?


Check that while you're under there. But you have to fix the parts you already know are broken.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #26 on: 25 September 2021, 17:52:13 »

Understood, step by step. Report then.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #27 on: 31 October 2021, 07:40:26 »

So, step by step, slowly moving project. New rear discs (not GM) installed, still vibrating, rims, tires ok. Gear box mount not yet checked. What I know and have told earlier is that when I drive a road which is in bad condition (uneven) & full of "holes" the auto box selector is moving much front and back like the rear mount were broken. Have to find a place where I can go down there safely.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #28 on: 31 October 2021, 08:58:49 »

Ok, thanks, I do not have those but original ones. They are good. New rear discs came yesterday, install them next week. BUT new finding, I might have another vibration, too: Today I was driving only 60 km/h and felt that vibration in my autobox selector with my fingers, cruise on. When I put cruise off that vibration disappeared immediately. Speed started to decrease an put cruise on again and vibration was back. Tested several times. When "force" is on there is vibration. Can this be something torque converter related or prop related. Torque converter was off together with autobox some years ago when rear crank seal was changed. Could loosen torque converter cause this?
A failing CV joint or donut can do it. There is quite a lot of weight in the drive shaft - as you load the joint it can either force the shaft in or out of alignment. When out of alignment there is a significant out of balance weight spinning round (and shaking the car)
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #29 on: 04 November 2021, 19:00:13 »

Thank Andy H, have to check. After removing rear wheel I can lift the control arm by putting jack under the lower shock flange to get the shaft to normal position and check. Is it a wearing part? I mean can it be worn after 300 000 km.

What is donut here?
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #30 on: 04 November 2021, 19:11:14 »

Drive shafts can wear out, but on RWD cars it's usually because the boots have failed and the grease has escaped rather than normal use.

FWD wear out because they are constantly working with both steering and suspension inputs.

In your case a worn drive shaft would clunk once as it takes up or releases load rather than causing a vibration.

If the gearbox mount has failed, incredibly likely given the mileage and the car has seen any oil leaks then you'll be able to push the tail shaft up and sided to side by hand. Be warned though, if the gearbox mount has failed then the engine ones won't be far behind... These split, lose their fluid then tear away... Symptoms start with NVH and end with the engine moving sideways 5-10 centimetres during hard cornering... This ultimately manifests as a noticeable shift in the CofG of the front end and a loud clonk when it hits whatever is next to it.

NVH during driving is almost always drive train mountings.

Collapsed diff mounts will give similar symptoms to the engine mounts except the diff is lighter so the clonks are quieter... You can still feel it move though under extreme load.
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #31 on: 05 November 2021, 08:38:29 »

Thank Andy H, have to check. After removing rear wheel I can lift the control arm by putting jack under the lower shock flange to get the shaft to normal position and check. Is it a wearing part? I mean can it be worn after 300 000 km.

What is donut here?
This is a donut
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #32 on: 05 November 2021, 08:52:28 »

Diff mounts part numbers or web links anyone please? can't find them
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #33 on: 05 November 2021, 09:17:53 »

No longer available. Globally.

Rebuild the existing with poly urethane... It's a DIY job :y
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Re: Still vibrating, the Whole Car and in "Every" Speed
« Reply #34 on: 05 November 2021, 10:15:18 »

No longer available. Globally.

Rebuild the existing with poly urethane... It's a DIY job :y




Like this:




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