Topic: Locking Wheel Nuts (Read 2405 times)

VXL V6 · « **on:** 23 August 2007, 13:42:02 »

Right! Having a nighhtmare! As i'm off on holiday tomorrow I thought i'd check that all the wheel bolts aren't tightened to 'kwik fit spec' (Too 'kin tight), the four normal bolts seemed ok on each wheel so i've re-torqued them up to 55nm but do you think I can shift the locking bolts? No chance.

To make things worse they are the free spinning type so hammering a socket onto them isn't going to help, i've sprayed some WD40 all around them in the hope it'll free them off but I hold out little hope.

The really annoying bit is that it's one of the first things I was going to check when I got the car...

Oh well, can of tyre weld in the boot and fingers crossed while i'm away.

Anyone got any idea's? Something like 'press the hazard warning switch while standing on one leg and the locknuts will just fall off'?

Thanks!

VXL V6 · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 August 2007, 15:39:11 »

I've now ordered a new key from the dealers, it's £20 and I had to give them the serial number off the old kit (thankfully in the boot!), the chassis number, the registration number and my home address!

Got to be worth a try, i'll keep spraying a bit of WD40 as close to the back of the locknuts as possible in the meantime. Even if I only get a couple of them off it'll be a cheaper bill at the garage.

Jay w · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 August 2007, 16:04:26 »

i had this issues a few years ago with my Citroen......

Ended up tightening the wheel bolts really tight in the hope that they would be tighter than the locking ones and so they would release easier, it worked but there is a risk of damaging the wheel or bolt or both.....

the other alternative was to allow the butchers have a go at it (national tyre centre) and they couldn't be sure they wouldn't damage the wheel

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 August 2007, 16:47:28 »

55Nm is half of what they should be!

VXL V6 · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 August 2007, 16:49:13 »

Should be 110? OK will re-do... oops! Don't know where I got 55 from

Andy B · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 August 2007, 16:52:05 »

Quote

55Nm is half of what they should be!

You sure? 80 ft/lbs seems to ring a bell for me ......

Grumpy · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 August 2007, 17:04:33 »

80 lbf/ft is 110 Nm ........... give or take 1 lbf/ft

VXL V6 · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 August 2007, 17:09:29 »

Yep it's 110Nm, just checked the manual.

Will go and torque them up.

Was looking at the key and it's obviously a softer metal than the bolt, will be applying copper ease to all the threads when I finally get the lock nuts off. Never had a problem on any car that i've done that too before.

Grumpy · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 August 2007, 17:25:08 »

applying copper ease to all the threads

Be aware that if you grease a thread, that you will put a higher
loading on the bolt at the same reading on your torque spanner,
than you would without greasing the bolt at the same reading
on your torque spanner.

VXL V6 · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 August 2007, 17:58:25 »

Done three wheels now... but just snapped the socket on the fourth wheel..... Snap On..... Nah Snap Off.... Going to get some proper British made sockets tomorrow.

Or i'll have to use my halfords set (oh heck)

VXL V6 · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 August 2007, 18:25:59 »

Grumpy,

How much would this affect it? I've always done this on the wheel bolts on my cars. I just torque them up to the click then a grunt on top if you see what I mean?

Grumpy · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 August 2007, 18:47:41 »

How much would this affect it?

Hi VXL V6, I can't give you a definitive answer, but it is considerable.
Enough to put a tensile loading on a bolt to take it close to 'necking',
if the threads don't strip first.

When you torque load a bolt, you are putting it under a 'pre-load' tensile
stress. You measure this, with a torque spanner, that is actually measuring
the turning force required to overcome the friction on the threads between
the nut and the bolt. If you lubricate the thread, you reduce the friction, and
require a higher tensile loading on the bolt to reach the same torque
reading.

The designer will specify the correct 'wet' or 'dry' torque figure for the
particular application.

To give you an example of the pitfalls. On a certain aircraft, no names no
pack drill, we suddenly kept getting a failure on a critical component.

It was eventually tracked down to the same guy who was doing the job.
Being what he thought was conscientious, he thought he was doing good by lubricating the bolts
and nuts before torquing them up.
The bolts were being put past their tensile strength. When the component
was put under stress, during landing and braking, they sheared off.

It does make a considerable difference, that's why you don't torque a 'wet'
connection to a 'dry' torque figure.

Hope that helps.

VXL V6 · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 August 2007, 20:09:41 »

Right, think I get the gist of what you are saying. I've done them to 110Nm with a light smear of copper ease, so potentially I guess they could be tighter than I think then but they aren't as tight as some of the ones I took off!

Thanks for the information, never knew there was a difference between wet and dry values, I guess it's common sense really if you think about it!

Andy B · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 August 2007, 20:20:56 »

Quote

...... I just torque them up to the click then a grunt on top if you see what I mean?

I used to work with a bloke who tightened everything to a value of "till you fart & then another quarter turn!!"

And he was a BIG bloke.

Pete Elite · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 August 2007, 21:44:32 »

Quote

applying copper ease to all the threads

Be aware that if you grease a thread, that you will put a higher
loading on the bolt at the same reading on your torque spanner,
than you would without greasing the bolt at the same reading
on your torque spanner.

Hi Grumpy,
I understand what your saying, but if that's the case why don't they give wet and dry Torque Values especially on something as important as a wheel nut/bolt :question.

Grumpy · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 August 2007, 22:20:57 »

why don't they give wet and dry Torque Values

Because you're expected to do the job iaw the Maintenance Manual.

If a connection is meant to be lubed, the manual will state this and the
torque loading will be stated with this in mind.

If a connection isn't meant to be lubed, then the torque loading
will be quoted with this in mind.

I don't know what the pukka gen Vauxhall Manual quotes, perhaps
someone who has access to one will say.

davlad22 · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 August 2007, 14:48:44 »

Interesting that the locking nuts were tight as a ducks @rse? Did you watch Cr@p-Fit put the wheels back on? It's kind of known that you shouldn't use an air gun on them, the locking 'thread' will be trashed in no time, so they shouldn't be that tight surely?

As a side note, we were told a little while ago strictly NOT to lose the locking key for our '51 plate omega, not because it's a pain in the arse to sort, but because they don't actually make that pattern/combination/kit anymore!?! Anybody else had this or confirm otherwise.

VXL V6 · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 August 2007, 20:46:20 »

Only had the car a few months so i've never seen who put the wheels on last, personally I would never use kwik fit or any of the nationals, they are overpriced and do a lousy job. I have always used the local fitters, they will get the tyres you want, look after your alloys, torque the bolts correctly and be far far cheaper.

VX can get you a new key if you can give them specific information which is fair enough. Going the route of getting another one because the original is donald ducked now, so hoping a new key, a breaker bar and some WD40 over a week will help get at least some, if not all of them off.

davlad22 · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 August 2007, 01:29:47 »

Best of luck

Quote

VX can get you a new key if you can give them specific information which is fair enough.

Now you would think so, but we were 'reliably' informed that one particular locking nut 'combo' (described as a 'series' or something?) was no longer used, couldn't be obtained and was phased out, the one used on our '51 Omega.

May be wrong, hope I am, but just a heads up incase we start having to drill our wheels off

VXL V6 · « **Reply #19 on:** 03 September 2007, 13:45:12 »

Right, picked up the replacement locking key today, have managed to get one locking bolt off but the key is 'dissolving' again.... looking at the locking bolt I have managed to remove I can see that it's corroded on the first few threads (nearest the head).

I've sprayed yet more WD40 on them again and will try again later. I guess one out is one less to have to pay for!

Looking at the design it's only the collar that is free spinning, if that's ~~smashed the rather daylights out of~~ gently prised off then it may be possible to get a socket on......

Any recomendations for replacement locking bolts?

TheBoy · « **Reply #20 on:** 03 September 2007, 14:18:55 »

Quote

Any recomendations for replacement locking bolts?

Yeah, a normal rather bolt

VXL V6 · « **Reply #21 on:** 03 September 2007, 14:23:22 »

Yep I'm thinking that way.... could put one of those red plastic covers on it so it looks like a locking bolt!

duggs · « **Reply #22 on:** 03 September 2007, 15:00:24 »

AND while we're on the subject...

DON'T buy the cheap locking wheel nuts advertised on fleabay..

They do the job BUT the metal used to make them is NOT very hard or strong.
Both the nut on the wheel and the security section are rounding off and i've only used them twice.

alan2450 · « **Reply #23 on:** 03 September 2007, 21:52:06 »

Had the same problem on a 306, could not get any of the locking nuts off. Took it to a local tyre fitter who placed a sliding T bar socket on the nut and as he applyed pressure his mate quickly and repeatly tapped the end of the T bar with a lump hammer, all nuts off within minutes. Replaced them with normal nuts and only cost me £5 all in.

Worth a try!

VXL V6 · « **Reply #24 on:** 03 September 2007, 22:14:14 »

Yep, been given similar advice tonight... bloody big hammer and something on the end of the locknut... trouble is, with a hammer in my hand I might loose my temper with it

Thanks

Andy B · « **Reply #25 on:** 03 September 2007, 23:05:34 »

Quote

.......
Any recomendations for replacement locking bolts?

The new style Vauxhall locking bolts are far better, and aren't very expensive - £16 seems to ding a dong.

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Author Topic: Locking Wheel Nuts (Read 2405 times)