Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: anV6 on 16 October 2016, 12:08:13
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I'm interested in knowing what are the differences between the Omega B1 and B2. Are the differences only cosmetic? I know the B2 has a new interior, new tail lights and rear bumper and new bonnet and front bumper. But is that it?
And are there also mechanical and electrical differences? I know the engines were replaced in 2000. But what about the rest like suspension etc?
And by the way, does the Omega B share anything with the older Carlton-Omega A? Like chassis, suspension etc?
Thanks.
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http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90488.0
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Thanks. I had looked through that and as well as the FAQ. But I didn't really see the answer for my specific questions. Unless I overlooked something.
Edit: Yes, just looked again and the answer to my questions are really not there.
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Mechanically identical. Better paint techniques make facelift less print to bodywork corrosion, particularly on the doors.
New engines came in after the facelift, so you can get facelift cars with older engines.
Climate is a lot more advanced technically, but in reality doesn't deliver noticeable refinements. Seat heaters have better heat adjustment on facelift cars, rather than the on/off of pre L ones.
Everything else is cosmetic.
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Thanks!
At the front, what exactly is different? Looking at it it seem the B2 has a different grill, a different bonnet and a different bumper. But headlights and wings are the same as B1. Or am I wrong?
And would you know if the Omega B shares anything mechanically with the Carlton (Omega A)?
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Bonnet, headlight and bumper. That's all that's needed to make front end look like an Astra-G
Although based heavily on the Senator/Omega-A chassis, sharing the same V-Platform chassis, I can't think of anything that's identical.
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Bonnet, headlight and bumper. That's all that's needed to make front end look like an Astra-G .....
Oy! That's my line! ;D
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Bonnet, headlight and bumper. That's all that's needed to make front end look like an Astra-G
Although based heavily on the Senator/Omega-A chassis, sharing the same V-Platform chassis, I can't think of anything that's identical.
So the headlights are also different. I thought they were the same. But so there are no structural differences underneath? One can just buy the headlights, bumper and bonnet and bolt them right on without any custom work needed and convert the front to a B2 or vice versa?
I heard the Omega B was heavily based on the Omega-A. So I thought if the chassis is the same, maybe the suspension would be too, or at least very similar. Are the dampers, springs, bushings etc all different? Brakes?
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All different :'(
But yes, front end can be retrofitted :y
Wings are the same btw ;)
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All different as in the dampers, bushings and springs from the Omega-A won't fit? And why the tears? :)
Good to know it's easy to change the front end though. If it's as simple as bolting off and bolting on then it's easy.
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By the way, what are the differences between the standard suspension and the sports suspension found in the Omega MV6 and Omega Sport?
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By the way, what are the differences between the standard suspension and the sports suspension found in the Omega MV6 and Omega Sport?
About 20mm lower with slightly stiffer springs, no self leveling facility. Otherwise identical :y
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By the way, what are the differences between the standard suspension and the sports suspension found in the Omega MV6 and Omega Sport?
About 20mm lower with slightly stiffer springs, no self leveling facility. Otherwise identical :y
And only that makes the whole difference? According to some the sports suspension handles a whole lot better.
And I wonder how less comfortable it is since it's lower and stiffer.
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It doesn't sound like much, but it tightens the handling up nicely. Ride isn't really affected as it has the same size wheels and tyres as the Elite :y
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Bonnet, headlight and bumper. That's all that's needed to make front end look like an Astra-G
Although based heavily on the Senator/Omega-A chassis, sharing the same V-Platform chassis, I can't think of anything that's identical.
So the headlights are also different. I thought they were the same. But so there are no structural differences underneath? One can just buy the headlights, bumper and bonnet and bolt them right on without any custom work needed and convert the front to a B2 or vice versa?
I heard the Omega B was heavily based on the Omega-A. So I thought if the chassis is the same, maybe the suspension would be too, or at least very similar. Are the dampers, springs, bushings etc all different? Brakes?
The front hub assembly and rear wishbones are identical and that`s about it, the springs and dampers will physically fit but the rates will probably be wrong, at the front at least anyway.
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This is all very interesting. It's really surprising that the so called sports suspension has very little difference from the standard. I was expecting different geometry or at least something more than just stiffer springs.
I wonder what Lotus did to the Lotus Carlton suspension that every reviewer said it was handling like the Lotus sports cars and was a dream to drive.
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There's a couple of ex- LC / LO owners on here who will be able to explain that in fair detail between normal Carlton and the Lotus variant.
As for the suspension changes between Omegas, I think there was very much a feeling of 'if it aint broke, don't fix it'. The MV6 was never really a massive full-on track-munching sports machine like the old Carlton GSi 3000 was, cosmetically the MV6 never looked very far from the humblest GLS model. The suspension was a little lower a little stiffer, and that was fine, given it had a well-proven rear-drive chassis and decent dynamics. They weren't trying to make it an M5 eater (not forgetting they tried and succeeded in that with the Lotus, but for no real benefits, the whole Lotus Carlton Omega project basically cost GM money, especially after sales slumped due to the early 90s recession, which also affected XJ220 etc)
it was a bit nicer than a 'normal' omega to drive - and that's fine :) I have to say, I'm on MV6 springs on mine, and going from a FL with standard springs it's a fair bit tighter, and still rides 90% as well.... however I'd go back to the standard setup tomorrow without really feeling like I'd 'lost out'.
If you're after a lower and harder ride, then kits are out there. :)
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This is all very interesting. It's really surprising that the so called sports suspension has very little difference from the standard. I was expecting different geometry or at least something more than just stiffer springs.
I wonder what Lotus did to the Lotus Carlton suspension that every reviewer said it was handling like the Lotus sports cars and was a dream to drive.
The MV6 also had firmer damping and IMHO were better than the Bilstein B4`s and with 20mm lower stance wasn`t a bad handling car, what lets the Omega down is the bushing on the front wishbones and the powerflex bushes sort this out :y
The Lotus Carlton had self leveling suspension but that`s as much as I know about it, I suspect the geometry was different because the front wishbones are different as is the front wheel offset.
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There's a couple of ex- LC / LO owners on here who will be able to explain that in fair detail between normal Carlton and the Lotus variant.
As for the suspension changes between Omegas, I think there was very much a feeling of 'if it aint broke, don't fix it'. The MV6 was never really a massive full-on track-munching sports machine like the old Carlton GSi 3000 was, cosmetically the MV6 never looked very far from the humblest GLS model. The suspension was a little lower a little stiffer, and that was fine, given it had a well-proven rear-drive chassis and decent dynamics. They weren't trying to make it an M5 eater (not forgetting they tried and succeeded in that with the Lotus, but for no real benefits, the whole Lotus Carlton Omega project basically cost GM money, especially after sales slumped due to the early 90s recession, which also affected XJ220 etc)
it was a bit nicer than a 'normal' omega to drive - and that's fine :) I have to say, I'm on MV6 springs on mine, and going from a FL with standard springs it's a fair bit tighter, and still rides 90% as well.... however I'd go back to the standard setup tomorrow without really feeling like I'd 'lost out'.
By that I get the impression that if i don't get a MV6 I shouldn't bother in trying to upgrade the suspension to match the MV6's sports suspension?
If you're after a lower and harder ride, then kits are out there. :)
Which ones? :)
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This is all very interesting. It's really surprising that the so called sports suspension has very little difference from the standard. I was expecting different geometry or at least something more than just stiffer springs.
I wonder what Lotus did to the Lotus Carlton suspension that every reviewer said it was handling like the Lotus sports cars and was a dream to drive.
The MV6 also had firmer damping and IMHO were better than the Bilstein B4`s and with 20mm lower stance wasn`t a bad handling car, what lets the Omega down is the bushing on the front wishbones and the powerflex bushes sort this out :y
The Lotus Carlton had self leveling suspension but that`s as much as I know about it, I suspect the geometry was different because the front wishbones are different as is the front wheel offset.
Are the Bilstein B4s you mention the stock dampers in the non MV6 models?
And what are the Powerflex bushes? I get the feeling I will have to start a list of upgrade musts for the Omega. :)
So you think the Lotus Carlton self leveling may have made all the difference? But the standard Omegas also have that right, but in the MV6 sports suspension it is eliminated? Or this wasn't what Doctor Gollum meant when he said no self leveling facility for the MV6 suspension?
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By that I get the impression that if i don't get a MV6 I shouldn't bother in trying to upgrade the suspension to match the MV6's sports suspension?
You certainly should if it's an Elite. Possibly less so for other models without self-levelling. Not familiar enough to know.
Having said that, MV6 suspension bits are rare now, so probably not worth seeking them specifically. Pattern suspension parts such as the B4s are probably a better bet, although if you happen to come across some decent MV6 springs, snap them up. :y
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By that I get the impression that if i don't get a MV6 I shouldn't bother in trying to upgrade the suspension to match the MV6's sports suspension?
You certainly should if it's an Elite. Possibly less so for other models without self-levelling. Not familiar enough to know.
Having said that, MV6 suspension bits are rare now, so probably not worth seeking them specifically. Pattern suspension parts such as the B4s are probably a better bet, although if you happen to come across some decent MV6 springs, snap them up. :y
I did! ;D Actually surprised I havent seen any come up since, glad I got them when I did. :)
As Kevin say OP, worth keeping your eye out, however there are 'other' options (aftermarket springs which are stiffer and lower - depends what you want, really, how far you want to go etc)
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Sachs were OE shock provider... Bilsteins ok, but the have fitting issues...
Eibach do a decent range of springs :y
Irmscher stuff occasionally pops up, especially on ebay.de...
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This is all very interesting. It's really surprising that the so called sports suspension has very little difference from the standard. I was expecting different geometry or at least something more than just stiffer springs.
I wonder what Lotus did to the Lotus Carlton suspension that every reviewer said it was handling like the Lotus sports cars and was a dream to drive.
The MV6 also had firmer damping and IMHO were better than the Bilstein B4`s and with 20mm lower stance wasn`t a bad handling car, what lets the Omega down is the bushing on the front wishbones and the powerflex bushes sort this out :y
The Lotus Carlton had self leveling suspension but that`s as much as I know about it, I suspect the geometry was different because the front wishbones are different as is the front wheel offset.
Are the Bilstein B4s you mention the stock dampers in the non MV6 models?
And what are the Powerflex bushes? I get the feeling I will have to start a list of upgrade musts for the Omega. :)
So you think the Lotus Carlton self leveling may have made all the difference? But the standard Omegas also have that right, but in the MV6 sports suspension it is eliminated? Or this wasn't what Doctor Gollum meant when he said no self leveling facility for the MV6 suspension?
These replace the totally shite front bush in the front wishbone, it`s this bush that gives the omega the vague steering feel and the powerflex bushes are polyurathane and give a more precise feel to the front end.
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By that I get the impression that if i don't get a MV6 I shouldn't bother in trying to upgrade the suspension to match the MV6's sports suspension?
You certainly should if it's an Elite. Possibly less so for other models without self-levelling.
So is self-levelling bad? By what I have been reading here and the fact it has been deleted from the MV6 sports suspension I get the impression it is undesirable. But it was said the Lotus Carlton had it, which would make me think Lotus thought it was a good thing. I would also have thought so.
Having said that, MV6 suspension bits are rare now, so probably not worth seeking them specifically. Pattern suspension parts such as the B4s are probably a better bet, although if you happen to come across some decent MV6 springs, snap them up. :y
Sure. But I get the impression there is nothing special about the MV6 suspension, or? Can't you replicate it with after market parts? It's just different dampers and springs right?
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By that I get the impression that if i don't get a MV6 I shouldn't bother in trying to upgrade the suspension to match the MV6's sports suspension?
You certainly should if it's an Elite. Possibly less so for other models without self-levelling. Not familiar enough to know.
Having said that, MV6 suspension bits are rare now, so probably not worth seeking them specifically. Pattern suspension parts such as the B4s are probably a better bet, although if you happen to come across some decent MV6 springs, snap them up. :y
I did! ;D Actually surprised I havent seen any come up since, glad I got them when I did. :)
As Kevin say OP, worth keeping your eye out, however there are 'other' options (aftermarket springs which are stiffer and lower - depends what you want, really, how far you want to go etc)
What are the after market options? I don't want something scrapping on the floor. Nothing too low. Something as low as the MV6 or even Irmscher would be fine. Not too stiff either. The M5 is not that stiff right? It is still comfortable but handles well enough.
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This is all very interesting. It's really surprising that the so called sports suspension has very little difference from the standard. I was expecting different geometry or at least something more than just stiffer springs.
I wonder what Lotus did to the Lotus Carlton suspension that every reviewer said it was handling like the Lotus sports cars and was a dream to drive.
The MV6 also had firmer damping and IMHO were better than the Bilstein B4`s and with 20mm lower stance wasn`t a bad handling car, what lets the Omega down is the bushing on the front wishbones and the powerflex bushes sort this out :y
The Lotus Carlton had self leveling suspension but that`s as much as I know about it, I suspect the geometry was different because the front wishbones are different as is the front wheel offset.
Are the Bilstein B4s you mention the stock dampers in the non MV6 models?
And what are the Powerflex bushes? I get the feeling I will have to start a list of upgrade musts for the Omega. :)
So you think the Lotus Carlton self leveling may have made all the difference? But the standard Omegas also have that right, but in the MV6 sports suspension it is eliminated? Or this wasn't what Doctor Gollum meant when he said no self leveling facility for the MV6 suspension?
These replace the totally shite front bush in the front wishbone, it`s this bush that gives the omega the vague steering feel and the powerflex bushes are polyurathane and give a more precise feel to the front end.
Great to know. Thanks!
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By the way, which version had this dashboard? :
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dfBZo2tQc-0/maxresdefault.jpg)
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By the way, which version had this dashboard? :
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Looks like eBay stick on clocks to me
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I've seen that one before on the web/oof. Right, that's standard FL MV6 fayre, with the additon of...
little chrome strip things on ashtray
-Ebay/aftermarket stainless steel dial rings
-Ebay/aftermarket dials (as above) may be Richbrook but there are companies who will make you custom dials. These being from Germany rings a bell.
-Phone and air freshener are obviously aftermarket.
-The little 'box' on the top of the dash also is non-standard.
-The screen / display in the speedo binnacle is unusual, but are about. It's a colour screen, and rather sought after. I've seen people on the continent hack them to provide a reversing camera feed, display a ncie opel badge, even a TV/DVD feed, all sorts.
The gear lever isn't standard, either. Not sure what's going on here, but most likely replacement gearbox. I assume, therefore there's a V8 under the bonnet, and that's a tranny out of a Corvette or something else 'beefy'
-Little button next to the gearlever. The 'snowflake' button is on all Auto Omegas, but the square thing below is what's added on & could be anything.
Annnd breathe! I think that's it! :y
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Thanks. In the meantime I found a picture of the same dashboard with a caption saying Irmscher Omega. Could it possible this is how the Irmscher cars looked like inside?
By the way I thought the small LCD screen on the center was standard in all Omegas. I could swear all the cars I looked online for sale had it.
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In a word nope ;)
Almost all that is standard (well, MV6) Omega, aside from the points I mention above :) I'm not actually sure if any of that is Irmscher. Also Irmscher is a 'sort-of' in-house Tuner, like Ghia, Brabus, Alpine. There's no (British, at least) 'Irmscher Omega'. There was the Sport and MV6, that was it. Only individual people who've spend a few quid on the Irmscher extras and called their cars 'Irmscher Omega/Vectra/Corsa' etc but I could stick an Irmscher spoiler on a Morris Marina and call it my 'Irmscher Marina' - that won't make it a list model :)
There is always a screen, or display of some kind there, some are single colour LCD readouts, some a little more fancy. There's a description somewhere on here the different screens and when they came in :)
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Ah OK. I thought you meant some didn't have the LCD screen at all. You meant the content of the LCD screen in the picture is unusual. Not the screen itself. I understand now. :)
The picture is not from an UK car. It's from a German car. It's from an Opel. Not a Vauxhall. ;)
I have heard there is no Vauxhall Irmscher Omega. But I thought Irmscher was a list option for Opel Omegas?
In any case maybe Irmscher sold a dash kit back in the day too apart from body kits?
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Sorry, standard Omega with lots of chavvy shit stuck to it ::)
Even the screen is 'normal' in a £400 option kinda way... available with both NCDC2013 and 2015 :y
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Irmscher Omega.
No such thing. Irmscher are an aftermarket styling company, not a factory fit option.
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Irmscher Omega.
No such thing. Irmscher are an aftermarket styling company, not a factory fit option.
Unless it was an Irmscher Senator in which case it has a Irmscher chassis number.
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Irmscher Omega.
No such thing. Irmscher are an aftermarket styling company, not a factory fit option.
Unless it was an Irmscher Senator in which case it has a Irmscher chassis number.
Sorry, yes, I was referring to the Omega B :y
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Irmscher Omega.
No such thing. Irmscher are an aftermarket styling company, not a factory fit option.
Unless it was an Irmscher Senator in which case it has a Irmscher chassis number.
Sorry, yes, I was referring to the Omega B :y
It`s a shame they ddin`t carry on doing limited runs on cars, that Senator was quite a beast in it`s day, and very rare too, an Irmscher V8 would have been sought after 8)
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The picture is not from an UK car. It's from a German car. It's from an Opel. Not a Vauxhall. ;) ....
we'd guessed that as the steering wheel has an Opel blitz & is on the wrong side ...... ::)
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Sorry, standard Omega with lots of chavvy shit stuck to it ::)
Even the screen is 'normal' in a £400 option kinda way... available with both NCDC2013 and 2015 :y
I'm sorry, but I didn't understand what you meant about the screen. ???
And what do you find chavy on the dashboard, besides the chrome little things on the ashtray? It looks very much like any modern car these days, including the chrome rings around the dials. :)
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Irmscher Omega.
No such thing. Irmscher are an aftermarket styling company, not a factory fit option.
OK. Sorry. I had the impression they were like AMG (before the Mercedes take over), Brabus or even Steinmetz. You could for example send your car in with AMG and they would tune it up to match one of their cars. It would be an AMG from new, but it would still be a legit AMG. At least I would say so.
But if Irmscher only made body kits etc then yes. I agree with you. :y
But I thought they also sold tuned cars. I know for certain Irmscher made a turbocharged Omega B. But I don't know if it was only an one of, a show car or what.
Steinmetz definitely sold tuned Omega Bs though. So I thought Irmscher too.
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Irmscher Omega.
No such thing. Irmscher are an aftermarket styling company, not a factory fit option.
Unless it was an Irmscher Senator in which case it has a Irmscher chassis number.
Sorry, yes, I was referring to the Omega B :y
It`s a shame they ddin`t carry on doing limited runs on cars, that Senator was quite a beast in it`s day, and very rare too, an Irmscher V8 would have been sought after 8)
Yes, it's really a shame. Like I said they did make at least one turbo Omega B though. A V8 would have been fantastic. :y
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The picture is not from an UK car. It's from a German car. It's from an Opel. Not a Vauxhall. ;) ....
we'd guessed that as the steering wheel has an Opel blitz & is on the wrong side ...... ::)
Sorry. I didn't mean to offend anybody. I meant it very tongue in cheek, hence my wink emoticon, since Diamond Black Geezer mentioned UK cars. Diamond Black Geezer, I didn't mean to sound rude or anything. If it came across that way I apologize. :(
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Sorry. I didn't mean to offend anybody. I meant it very tongue in cheek, hence my wink emoticon, since Diamond Black Geezer mentioned UK cars. Diamond Black Geezer, I didn't mean to sound rude or anything. If it came across that way I apologize. :(
we're all thicker skinned than that ....... no apology needed :y :y :y
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It looks very much like any modern car these days
And that's probably what he doesn't like ;) ;D
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The was a 'Johnny Cecotto' Edition Omega in Europe that had all of the Irmscher stuff on it that I think had something to do with the V8 Star touring car series.
As for the LC self levelling, that was there to stop the front end lifting at silly speeds. The rear spoiler was functional as it provided positive downforce on the rear of the cars which in turn caused the front to lift so the suspension levelling countered this to maintain the rear ride height at 630mm to the bumper line which maintained the pitch of the car and the steering control.
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Not sure whether it has been mentioned but the backend is different too. Different boot lid, bumper, light and quarter panels on the saloon so more difficult to change. Estate has a different bumper and tailgate trims. The lights are also different but a straight swap.
Door rubbing are smooth and painted on the facelift.
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The picture is not from an UK car. It's from a German car. It's from an Opel. Not a Vauxhall. ;) ....
we'd guessed that as the steering wheel has an Opel blitz & is on the wrong side ...... ::)
Sorry. I didn't mean to offend anybody. I meant it very tongue in cheek, hence my wink emoticon, since Diamond Black Geezer mentioned UK cars. Diamond Black Geezer, I didn't mean to sound rude or anything. If it came across that way I apologize. :(
No apology necessary, didn't even notice. :y
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Sorry, standard Omega with lots of chavvy shit stuck to it ::)
Even the screen is 'normal' in a £400 option kinda way... available with both NCDC2013 and 2015 :y
I'm sorry, but I didn't understand what you meant about the screen. ???
And what do you find chavy on the dashboard, besides the chrome little things on the ashtray? It looks very much like any modern car these days, including the chrome rings around the dials. :)
A picture paints a thousand words, so here's two...
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/Mobile%20Uploads/DSC_0277_zpsudyq5us6.jpg)
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/Mobile%20Uploads/DSC_0278_zpslrtaxgnb.jpg)
As for the instrument cluster, that's plain nasty, especially given that someone actually had to put time and effort into making it look so bad...
Fitting the gear lever from a Ford Scorpio (at least that's what it looks like) makes no sense either, the phone holder by the ashtray is beyond words...
The thing on the dash top is the display for aftermarket parking sensors, again something that could have had alot more thought applied to it.
But, each to their own, and fortunately I will most likely never see that car, let alone drive it... ::)
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Not sure whether it has been mentioned but the backend is different too. Different boot lid, bumper, light and quarter panels on the saloon so more difficult to change. Estate has a different bumper and tailgate trims. The lights are also different but a straight swap.
Door rubbing are smooth and painted on the facelift.
Shells are identical under the rear wings.
And in an emergency, a prefacelift boot lid will fit a facelift car. The physical difference being next to the rear lights, where there would be a gap.
Tailgates and doors are effectively identical.*
For each phase of production there are eight basic shells: Saloon/Estate, With/out sunroof, Left/Right drive.
*earlier door hinges might and loom entries might be different.
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....
The picture is not from an UK car. It's from a German car. It's from an Opel. Not a Vauxhall. ;) ....
we'd guessed that as the steering wheel has an Opel blitz & is on the wrong side ...... ::)
Sorry. I didn't mean to offend anybody. I meant it very tongue in cheek, hence my wink emoticon, since Diamond Black Geezer mentioned UK cars. Diamond Black Geezer, I didn't mean to sound rude or anything. If it came across that way I apologize. :(
No apology necessary, didn't even notice. :y
Glad to know! :y
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The was a 'Johnny Cecotto' Edition Omega in Europe that had all of the Irmscher stuff on it that I think had something to do with the V8 Star touring car series.
As for the LC self levelling, that was there to stop the front end lifting at silly speeds. The rear spoiler was functional as it provided positive downforce on the rear of the cars which in turn caused the front to lift so the suspension levelling countered this to maintain the rear ride height at 630mm to the bumper line which maintained the pitch of the car and the steering control.
Thanks for the input. And I guess the MV6 just doesn't go fast enough to have the same problem, so they deleted the self leveling function for the sports suspension for some reason?
Thanks for bringing the Johnny Cecotto' Edition Omega to my attention. I had not heard of it before. I will do some reading on it.
I'm really enjoying this forum. Lots of great helpful people with profound knowledge about the cars and a great atmosphere. Learning a bunch here. :y
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Not sure whether it has been mentioned but the backend is different too. Different boot lid, bumper, light and quarter panels on the saloon so more difficult to change. Estate has a different bumper and tailgate trims. The lights are also different but a straight swap.
Door rubbing are smooth and painted on the facelift.
No it wasn't mentioned. Thanks for bringing it up! :y
You know, I'm in a bit of a dilemma. I like the external looks of the B1 Omega, but the interior of the B2 Omega. I also would like to get a B2 because of all the quality and safety improvements on it. But to buy a B2 to fully retrofit to look like a B1 looks like a foolish idea and like it would be too expensive as well. The front seems easy enough. But to change the rear quarters can't be an easy DIY task.
But finding a lower mileage B1 with no or little rust seems also way harder than a B2. Let alone upgrade the B1 interior to the B2. And I would still not have all the B2 upgrades.
I'm in trouble, right? :(
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Sorry, standard Omega with lots of chavvy shit stuck to it ::)
Even the screen is 'normal' in a £400 option kinda way... available with both NCDC2013 and 2015 :y
I'm sorry, but I didn't understand what you meant about the screen. ???
And what do you find chavy on the dashboard, besides the chrome little things on the ashtray? It looks very much like any modern car these days, including the chrome rings around the dials. :)
A picture paints a thousand words, so here's two...
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/Mobile%20Uploads/DSC_0277_zpsudyq5us6.jpg)
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/Mobile%20Uploads/DSC_0278_zpslrtaxgnb.jpg)
As for the instrument cluster, that's plain nasty, especially given that someone actually had to put time and effort into making it look so bad...
Fitting the gear lever from a Ford Scorpio (at least that's what it looks like) makes no sense either, the phone holder by the ashtray is beyond words...
The thing on the dash top is the display for aftermarket parking sensors, again something that could have had alot more thought applied to it.
But, each to their own, and fortunately I will most likely never see that car, let alone drive it... ::)
I agree with you about all the extra things like gear lever, parking sensor and specially the phone holder. The Omega actually has a radio phone feature right? Do you even need to have access to the actual phone?
But I'm fine with the instrument cluster. It doesn't look amateur or home made to me.
And thanks a lot for the brochure picture explaining the LCD. I will have a read. :)
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Just to complicate it, the MV6 in the UK were the Sports spec, in Opel land, depending from which Country the MV6's were not all the same spec, in fact some of our Elites spec were called Opel MV6.
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The Facelift Omega came with two factory options for phones, both types were available with or without Bose enabled, and both were optional across the range :y
Option one...
CCRT 2008 has no nav, but does have cassette and 4 disc changer. Full size sim card inserts into a slot behind the control panel. Also has unique display.
Option two...
NCDC2015, same as 2013, except it has a single din sized unit which lives in the glovebox. This also requires a full sized sim card.
Both option give the car its own phone number, but to recieve calls from your mobile, it must first be diverted to the cars number.
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Just to complicate it, the MV6 in the UK were the Sports spec, in Opel land, depending from which Country the MV6's were not all the same spec, in fact some of our Elites spec were called Opel MV6.
Indeed, I think that's actually where Vauxhall got the 'MV6' badge from in the first place! Pinched it from the Opel parts bin. The Elite was I think Vauxhall's way of keeping a bit of the Senator alive, as a separate model. That's why if you look all the other PFL badges they are separate chromed letters glued onto a black rectangle, which sits in the door moulding. The Elites the letters and rectangle are all in one, you can't 'ping' the letters off; and the chrome notoriously wears thin, until pretty much just the black remains. Obviously this was a cost thing, as the Elite badges were for UK-only cars. :)
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Just to complicate it, the MV6 in the UK were the Sports spec, in Opel land, depending from which Country the MV6's were not all the same spec, in fact some of our Elites spec were called Opel MV6.
Indeed, I think that's actually where Vauxhall got the 'MV6' badge from in the first place! Pinched it from the Opel parts bin. The Elite was I think Vauxhall's way of keeping a bit of the Senator alive, as a separate model. That's why if you look all the other PFL badges they are separate chromed letters glued onto a black rectangle, which sits in the door moulding. The Elites the letters and rectangle are all in one, you can't 'ping' the letters off; and the chrome notoriously wears thin, until pretty much just the black remains. Obviously this was a cost thing, as the Elite badges were for UK-only cars. :)
Eh ??? Facelifts all had individual lettering stuck to the doors...
The specs on the logbooks are at the mercy of the idiot filling in the original registration paperwork...
Used to have an early facelift Vectra C, built and sold as a 1.8i Design Saloon, but registered by the supplying dealers work experience temp as an Exclusive :D
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The was a 'Johnny Cecotto' Edition Omega in Europe that had all of the Irmscher stuff on it that I think had something to do with the V8 Star touring car series.
I found some info on the Johnny Cecotto' Edition. Unfortunately it seems it was a body kit only. No engine upgrades. I'm disappointed in Irmscher. The house that put out the EVO500 suddenly is happy with selling body kits only. :-[ I guess this leaves the Steinmetz Omega as the ultimate Omega B.
The Johnny Cecotto' Edition styling package was available for any Omega of the range. It looks like it was a list option. I knew already that Irmscher wheels were a list option. But a whole styling package definitely puts Irmscher as a list option. Still not a list model per say. But being able to order it directly from Opel puts it a notch above of being only an aftermarket mod.
You could also choose a suspension package with the Johnny Cecotto' Edition. Although I couldn't find any information of how it would be different from the stock suspensions.
Here are some shots of the Johnny Cecotto' Edition Omega brochure I found online:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/q-cAAOSwstxVQ5Kk/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/uW4AAOSwBahVQ5Km/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/piAAAOSweW5VQ5Kp/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/LHMAAOSwpDdVQ5Ks/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/uqgAAOSwBahVQ5Kv/$_57.JPG)
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Thanks for the input. And I guess the MV6 just doesn't go fast enough to have the same problem, so they deleted the self leveling function for the sports suspension for some reason?
Just to pick up on this, the Elite's self levelling system does have a vehicle speed input, so it's not impossible that it is adaptive to high speed driving but, of course, the MV6 doesn't have the self levelling at all and the Elite suspension is a bit wallowy, IMHO.
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Thanks for the input. And I guess the MV6 just doesn't go fast enough to have the same problem, so they deleted the self leveling function for the sports suspension for some reason?
Just to pick up on this, the Elite's self levelling system does have a vehicle speed input, so it's not impossible that it is adaptive to high speed driving but, of course, the MV6 doesn't have the self levelling at all and the Elite suspension is a bit wallowy, IMHO.
Thanks for the info. What I'm trying to understand is why they did away with the leveling system in the MV6, since I would have thought it would be helpful for a sports suspension.
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The self-levelling was only for the rear axle... and really designed for towing / heavy loads in the boot. :) Not the same setup in the Senator of earlier years, with its three-mode ride height/stiffness. That was ahead of its time, definitely.
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Probably cost, I guess. The MV6 was missing most of the costly extras from the Elite - leather, sunroof, memory seats, etc. so guessing it was positioned to offer good performance per pound. Or maybe they decided to ditch all the pointless stuff that just weighs it down. ;)
Also, being more stiffly sprung, it doesn't respond so badly to being fully loaded (although it'll drag its' @rse a little with a full boot when towing). I would imagine Elite suspension without levelling would be a good bit worse in that regard.
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The self-levelling was only for the rear axle... and really designed for towing / heavy loads in the boot. :) Not the same setup in the Senator of earlier years, with its three-mode ride height/stiffness. That was ahead of its time, definitely.
It didn`t change the ride height at all, just the damping rates :y
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I see. So the MV6 was not the top of the range? I always thought the MV6 had all the Elite had but just more sporty.
I'm not sure in Germany they had the Elite. I think the MV6 was the top range in continental Europe. I could swear I have seen MV6 with full leather interiors for sale here.
But if the reason for doing away with the self leveling system was cost or weight, it would be interesting to know what effect it would have on the MV6 suspension if put back on. If a positive or negative effect. Or if maybe no difference. Anybody with an Elite here who has upgraded to MV6 springs and dampers and not taken the self leveling system off? :)
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Thanks for the input. And I guess the MV6 just doesn't go fast enough to have the same problem, so they deleted the self leveling function for the sports suspension for some reason?
Just to pick up on this, the Elite's self levelling system does have a vehicle speed input, so it's not impossible that it is adaptive to high speed driving but, of course, the MV6 doesn't have the self levelling at all and the Elite suspension is a bit wallowy, IMHO.
Slightly off topic, but just add the Self Levelling on the stronger Police Supension setup on the Estates works well, even at speed, and either loaded or unloaded in the back. :y
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I see. So the MV6 was not the top of the range? I always thought the MV6 had all the Elite had but just more sporty.
I'm not sure in Germany they had the Elite. I think the MV6 was the top range in continental Europe. I could swear I have seen MV6 with full leather interiors for sale here.
But if the reason for doing away with the self leveling system was cost or weight, it would be interesting to know what effect it would have on the MV6 suspension if put back on. If a positive or negative effect. Or if maybe no difference. Anybody with an Elite here who has upgraded to MV6 springs and dampers and not taken the self leveling system off? :)
As posted a few posts ago -
Just to complicate it, the MV6 in the UK were the Sports spec, in Opel land, depending from which Country the MV6's were not all the same spec, in fact some of our Elites spec were called Opel MV6.
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Thanks for the input. And I guess the MV6 just doesn't go fast enough to have the same problem, so they deleted the self leveling function for the sports suspension for some reason?
Just to pick up on this, the Elite's self levelling system does have a vehicle speed input, so it's not impossible that it is adaptive to high speed driving but, of course, the MV6 doesn't have the self levelling at all and the Elite suspension is a bit wallowy, IMHO.
Slightly off topic, but just add the Self Levelling on the stronger Police Supension setup on the Estates works well, even at speed, and either loaded or unloaded in the back. :y
What is the difference between the stronger Police Suspension and the stock and MV6 suspensions? Thanks.
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Also, that Cesattoo edition thing, well, those are just standard photos of the 'Irmscher' bodykit on the Omega. I've got several brochures similar with those exact same shots, just without any of this Jonny bloke. I'm assuming what's happened is he's done rather well that year in the DTM, so they named a special edition after him. I could list various times Vauxhall have done something similar. So don't worry too much about finding this specific 'edition', just find a bodykit, in whatever condition, either attached to a car or not. :)
Oh, and as said elsewhere, what was badged as 'MV6' in Europe was what we call the 'Elite' in the UK. I think the 'MV6' as we call; it was badged 'Sport' by Opel. Not helped by the fact that on the FL, Vauxhall also introduced the trim level 'Sport' - no idea if Opel had their own version of this model or not. :y
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I see. So the MV6 was not the top of the range? I always thought the MV6 had all the Elite had but just more sporty.
I'm not sure in Germany they had the Elite. I think the MV6 was the top range in continental Europe. I could swear I have seen MV6 with full leather interiors for sale here.
But if the reason for doing away with the self leveling system was cost or weight, it would be interesting to know what effect it would have on the MV6 suspension if put back on. If a positive or negative effect. Or if maybe no difference. Anybody with an Elite here who has upgraded to MV6 springs and dampers and not taken the self leveling system off? :)
As posted a few posts ago -
Just to complicate it, the MV6 in the UK were the Sports spec, in Opel land, depending from which Country the MV6's were not all the same spec, in fact some of our Elites spec were called Opel MV6.
And just to add a bit more confusing info, in the UK, the original MV6 was Police Spec and named on the Log Book as MV6, although not badged as so on the car, wasn't till around 98 that the MV6 was introduced as Factory option on the MiniFace and Facelifts.
The Police versions were still called MV6's, untill the 3.2 were introduced in 2001, the were then renamed as Omega Specials. ;)
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Thanks for the input. And I guess the MV6 just doesn't go fast enough to have the same problem, so they deleted the self leveling function for the sports suspension for some reason?
Just to pick up on this, the Elite's self levelling system does have a vehicle speed input, so it's not impossible that it is adaptive to high speed driving but, of course, the MV6 doesn't have the self levelling at all and the Elite suspension is a bit wallowy, IMHO.
Slightly off topic, but just add the Self Levelling on the stronger Police Supension setup on the Estates works well, even at speed, and either loaded or unloaded in the back. :y
What is the difference between the stronger Police Suspension and the stock and MV6 suspensions? Thanks.
you've just said it - it's stronger. I don't think it's lower, just heavier-duty for the extra kgs that the Police cars weigh. I suppose on another Omega this may make it ride fractionally higher, actually. But that's a nitpick. It's heavier duty springs - thought someone who has owned standard LSC cars (the 'proper' name for the sports springs LSC = Lowered Sports Chassis) and Police vehicles would have to have measured/compared whether there's a ride height difference, too.
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Also very nice, interesting bit of info from Zirk, didn't know that :y
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Thanks for the input. And I guess the MV6 just doesn't go fast enough to have the same problem, so they deleted the self leveling function for the sports suspension for some reason?
Just to pick up on this, the Elite's self levelling system does have a vehicle speed input, so it's not impossible that it is adaptive to high speed driving but, of course, the MV6 doesn't have the self levelling at all and the Elite suspension is a bit wallowy, IMHO.
Slightly off topic, but just add the Self Levelling on the stronger Police Supension setup on the Estates works well, even at speed, and either loaded or unloaded in the back. :y
What is the difference between the stronger Police Suspension and the stock and MV6 suspensions? Thanks.
Stronger Heavy Duty and stiffer over normal, you could through them around quiet happily, ride height about the same as stock, handling wise very similar drive to the Factory spec MV6.
Police Estate came with Self leveling Police Saloons didn't, most Police had LSD Diffs fitted, again the Police suspension was well suited to that, stopped the rear diff from potentially oscillating when the LSD kicked in, as can happen with softer suspension.
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The Steinmetz kit was available in the UK through Rossiters (a non-GM garage). This was the only thing you could get other than wheels.
The supercharger upgrade was only for Europe on left hand drive cars.
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Also, that Cesattoo edition thing, well, those are just standard photos of the 'Irmscher' bodykit on the Omega. I've got several brochures similar with those exact same shots, just without any of this Jonny bloke. I'm assuming what's happened is he's done rather well that year in the DTM, so they named a special edition after him. I could list various times Vauxhall have done something similar. So don't worry too much about finding this specific 'edition', just find a bodykit, in whatever condition, either attached to a car or not. :)
Oh, and as said elsewhere, what was badged as 'MV6' in Europe was what we call the 'Elite' in the UK. I think the 'MV6' as we call; it was badged 'Sport' by Opel. Not helped by the fact that on the FL, Vauxhall also introduced the trim level 'Sport' - no idea if Opel had their own version of this model or not. :y
Oh, I don't fancy an Irmscher body kit. Without the performance improvements to back them up, body kits are a no go for me. ;)
So I'm not looking for a Johnny version at all. I just did research on it to find out if there were any engine improvements. Since there wasn't, I don't want one really.
So the European MV6 doesn't have the sports suspension? This is so confusing. I'm starting to think I should just get the best car I can find with the best condition and lowest mileage and the features I want ( I really want full leather for example) and not worry what it is called. :-\
Since it's an older car and I will probably replace bushings and dampers when I buy it, I might as well replace the springs with MV6-like ones such as the Eibach. So I don't have to worry about what trim the car is. This is the only performance difference right? The suspension?
By the way I just found out that the MV6 in Europe was only B1. B2 the MV6 trim was dropped and it became the Executive.
-
Thanks for the input. And I guess the MV6 just doesn't go fast enough to have the same problem, so they deleted the self leveling function for the sports suspension for some reason?
Just to pick up on this, the Elite's self levelling system does have a vehicle speed input, so it's not impossible that it is adaptive to high speed driving but, of course, the MV6 doesn't have the self levelling at all and the Elite suspension is a bit wallowy, IMHO.
Slightly off topic, but just add the Self Levelling on the stronger Police Supension setup on the Estates works well, even at speed, and either loaded or unloaded in the back. :y
What is the difference between the stronger Police Suspension and the stock and MV6 suspensions? Thanks.
you've just said it - it's stronger. I don't think it's lower, just heavier-duty for the extra kgs that the Police cars weigh. I suppose on another Omega this may make it ride fractionally higher, actually. But that's a nitpick. It's heavier duty springs - thought someone who has owned standard LSC cars (the 'proper' name for the sports springs LSC = Lowered Sports Chassis) and Police vehicles would have to have measured/compared whether there's a ride height difference, too.
Thanks for the info! :y
OK. If it's just more heavy duty then I guess I don't need it. The consumer cars being lighter than the Police Specials and all. Heavy duty won't really aid the sports performance.
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Also very nice, interesting bit of info from Zirk, didn't know that :y
Indeed! :y
Great forum and group of knowledgeable people!
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Thanks for the input. And I guess the MV6 just doesn't go fast enough to have the same problem, so they deleted the self leveling function for the sports suspension for some reason?
Just to pick up on this, the Elite's self levelling system does have a vehicle speed input, so it's not impossible that it is adaptive to high speed driving but, of course, the MV6 doesn't have the self levelling at all and the Elite suspension is a bit wallowy, IMHO.
Slightly off topic, but just add the Self Levelling on the stronger Police Supension setup on the Estates works well, even at speed, and either loaded or unloaded in the back. :y
What is the difference between the stronger Police Suspension and the stock and MV6 suspensions? Thanks.
Stronger Heavy Duty and stiffer over normal, you could through them around quiet happily, ride height about the same as stock, handling wise very similar drive to the Factory spec MV6.
Police Estate came with Self leveling Police Saloons didn't, most Police had LSD Diffs fitted, again the Police suspension was well suited to that, stopped the rear diff from potentially oscillating when the LSD kicked in, as can happen with softer suspension.
Which Omega trims had LSD Diffs fitted by the way?
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The Steinmetz kit was available in the UK through Rossiters (a non-GM garage). This was the only thing you could get other than wheels.
The supercharger upgrade was only for Europe on left hand drive cars.
There were 2 Steinmetz versions of the Omega B. The 4 cylinder cars were turbocharged and the V6 cars were supercharged. ;)
The ultimate Omega B. I also much prefer the look of the Steinmetz to the Irmscher.
I believe the reason for LHD only was the steering/ power steering pump would be in the way in the UK cars.
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Also, that Cesattoo edition thing, well, those are just standard photos of the 'Irmscher' bodykit on the Omega. I've got several brochures similar with those exact same shots, just without any of this Jonny bloke. I'm assuming what's happened is he's done rather well that year in the DTM, so they named a special edition after him. I could list various times Vauxhall have done something similar. So don't worry too much about finding this specific 'edition', just find a bodykit, in whatever condition, either attached to a car or not. :)
Oh, and as said elsewhere, what was badged as 'MV6' in Europe was what we call the 'Elite' in the UK. I think the 'MV6' as we call; it was badged 'Sport' by Opel. Not helped by the fact that on the FL, Vauxhall also introduced the trim level 'Sport' - no idea if Opel had their own version of this model or not. :y
Oh, I don't fancy an Irmscher body kit. Without the performance improvements to back them up, body kits are a no go for me. ;)
So I'm not looking for a Johnny version at all. I just did research on it to find out if there were any engine improvements. Since there wasn't, I don't want one really.
So the European MV6 doesn't have the sports suspension? This is so confusing. I'm starting to think I should just get the best car I can find with the best condition and lowest mileage and the features I want ( I really want full leather for example) and not worry what it is called. :-\
Since it's an older car and I will probably replace bushings and dampers when I buy it, I might as well replace the springs with MV6-like ones such as the Eibach. So I don't have to worry about what trim the car is. This is the only performance difference right? The suspension?
By the way I just found out that the MV6 in Europe was only B1. B2 the MV6 trim was dropped and it became the Executive.
They probably dld, on some models at least but whether they were badged MV6 or something else, Sport maybe, no idea about Euroland, as said the VX range didn't necessary follow the Opel range.
A clue might be in the Seats, the Factory Spec MV6 and Sports models in the UK had Recaro Style Sports seats in the front, Clothe or Leather, the type with the bigger bolsters and adjustable Leg supports. Would kind of make sense as to what Opel models came with these, could follow a pattern? :-\
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Thanks for the input. And I guess the MV6 just doesn't go fast enough to have the same problem, so they deleted the self leveling function for the sports suspension for some reason?
Just to pick up on this, the Elite's self levelling system does have a vehicle speed input, so it's not impossible that it is adaptive to high speed driving but, of course, the MV6 doesn't have the self levelling at all and the Elite suspension is a bit wallowy, IMHO.
Slightly off topic, but just add the Self Levelling on the stronger Police Supension setup on the Estates works well, even at speed, and either loaded or unloaded in the back. :y
What is the difference between the stronger Police Suspension and the stock and MV6 suspensions? Thanks.
Stronger Heavy Duty and stiffer over normal, you could through them around quiet happily, ride height about the same as stock, handling wise very similar drive to the Factory spec MV6.
Police Estate came with Self leveling Police Saloons didn't, most Police had LSD Diffs fitted, again the Police suspension was well suited to that, stopped the rear diff from potentially oscillating when the LSD kicked in, as can happen with softer suspension.
Which Omega trims had LSD Diffs fitted by the way?
None, in the UK, Police only, dont believe its was an optional extra on stock.
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The was a 'Johnny Cecotto' Edition Omega in Europe that had all of the Irmscher stuff on it that I think had something to do with the V8 Star touring car series.
I found some info on the Johnny Cecotto' Edition. Unfortunately it seems it was a body kit only. No engine upgrades. I'm disappointed in Irmscher. The house that put out the EVO500 suddenly is happy with selling body kits only. :-[ I guess this leaves the Steinmetz Omega as the ultimate Omega B.
The Johnny Cecotto' Edition styling package was available for any Omega of the range. It looks like it was a list option. I knew already that Irmscher wheels were a list option. But a whole styling package definitely puts Irmscher as a list option. Still not a list model per say. But being able to order it directly from Opel puts it a notch above of being only an aftermarket mod.
You could also choose a suspension package with the Johnny Cecotto' Edition. Although I couldn't find any information of how it would be different from the stock suspensions.
Here are some shots of the Johnny Cecotto' Edition Omega brochure I found online:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/q-cAAOSwstxVQ5Kk/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/uW4AAOSwBahVQ5Km/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/piAAAOSweW5VQ5Kp/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/LHMAAOSwpDdVQ5Ks/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/uqgAAOSwBahVQ5Kv/$_57.JPG)
Looking at the spring options, that special edition is only a four cylinder, which suggests the 2.2...
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...This is so confusing. I'm starting to think I should just get the best car I can find with the best condition and lowest mileage...
This is your best bet IMHO. Get the best condition body you can find with the engine that you want as a secondary consideration. Anything else can be changed reasonably easily, and the suspension components it left the factory with will be well worn now, so likely will have been replaced (in which case, it's anyone's guess) or will need replacement to bring the handling up to scratch, in which case you can fit whatever suits.
Mileage isn't really even an issue as the V6 cars will all do 200K effortlessly and be still working well beyond that.
-
The was a 'Johnny Cecotto' Edition Omega in Europe that had all of the Irmscher stuff on it that I think had something to do with the V8 Star touring car series.
I found some info on the Johnny Cecotto' Edition. Unfortunately it seems it was a body kit only. No engine upgrades. I'm disappointed in Irmscher. The house that put out the EVO500 suddenly is happy with selling body kits only. :-[ I guess this leaves the Steinmetz Omega as the ultimate Omega B.
The Johnny Cecotto' Edition styling package was available for any Omega of the range. It looks like it was a list option. I knew already that Irmscher wheels were a list option. But a whole styling package definitely puts Irmscher as a list option. Still not a list model per say. But being able to order it directly from Opel puts it a notch above of being only an aftermarket mod.
You could also choose a suspension package with the Johnny Cecotto' Edition. Although I couldn't find any information of how it would be different from the stock suspensions.
Here are some shots of the Johnny Cecotto' Edition Omega brochure I found online:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/q-cAAOSwstxVQ5Kk/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/uW4AAOSwBahVQ5Km/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/piAAAOSweW5VQ5Kp/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/LHMAAOSwpDdVQ5Ks/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IRMSCHER-OPEL-Omega-Johnny-Cecotto-Edition-2001-brochure-Vauxhall-related-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/uqgAAOSwBahVQ5Kv/$_57.JPG)
Looking at the spring options, that special edition is only a four cylinder, which suggests the 2.2...
Where do you see that? It says on the suspension page that there were complete suspension kits for 4 cylinder cars and for 6 cylinder cars. Check the last picture. ;)
The Johnny Cecotto Edition was available for all 2001 Omegas, Saloon or Estate, regardless of engine choice or trim. :y
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...This is so confusing. I'm starting to think I should just get the best car I can find with the best condition and lowest mileage...
This is your best bet IMHO. Get the best condition body you can find with the engine that you want as a secondary consideration. Anything else can be changed reasonably easily, and the suspension components it left the factory with will be well worn now, so likely will have been replaced (in which case, it's anyone's guess) or will need replacement to bring the handling up to scratch, in which case you can fit whatever suits.
Mileage isn't really even an issue as the V6 cars will all do 200K effortlessly and be still working well beyond that.
Yes, this is what I'm going to do. :y
-
Also, that Cesattoo edition thing, well, those are just standard photos of the 'Irmscher' bodykit on the Omega. I've got several brochures similar with those exact same shots, just without any of this Jonny bloke. I'm assuming what's happened is he's done rather well that year in the DTM, so they named a special edition after him. I could list various times Vauxhall have done something similar. So don't worry too much about finding this specific 'edition', just find a bodykit, in whatever condition, either attached to a car or not. :)
Oh, and as said elsewhere, what was badged as 'MV6' in Europe was what we call the 'Elite' in the UK. I think the 'MV6' as we call; it was badged 'Sport' by Opel. Not helped by the fact that on the FL, Vauxhall also introduced the trim level 'Sport' - no idea if Opel had their own version of this model or not. :y
Oh, I don't fancy an Irmscher body kit. Without the performance improvements to back them up, body kits are a no go for me. ;)
So I'm not looking for a Johnny version at all. I just did research on it to find out if there were any engine improvements. Since there wasn't, I don't want one really.
So the European MV6 doesn't have the sports suspension? This is so confusing. I'm starting to think I should just get the best car I can find with the best condition and lowest mileage and the features I want ( I really want full leather for example) and not worry what it is called. :-\
Since it's an older car and I will probably replace bushings and dampers when I buy it, I might as well replace the springs with MV6-like ones such as the Eibach. So I don't have to worry about what trim the car is. This is the only performance difference right? The suspension?
By the way I just found out that the MV6 in Europe was only B1. B2 the MV6 trim was dropped and it became the Executive.
They probably dld, on some models at least but whether they were badged MV6 or something else, Sport maybe, no idea about Euroland, as said the VX range didn't necessary follow the Opel range.
A clue might be in the Seats, the Factory Spec MV6 and Sports models in the UK had Recaro Style Sports seats in the front, Clothe or Leather, the type with the bigger bolsters and adjustable Leg supports. Would kind of make sense as to what Opel models came with these, could follow a pattern? :-\
Yes, paying attention to the seats sounds like a great tip. :)
So the Recaros came out in leather as well? In the Omega Sport it seems they were only cloth.
By the way, it is just the name plates that were mixed up, right? Opel didn't actually make different cars for both markets. They were just called different names. (?)
But Kevin makes a very good point. Even if I find a MV6 or whichever Opel trim is supposed to have the sports suspension, unless I find something with like 50K miles on the clock, the factory suspension components would have been long replaced. Who knows if the owner replaced them with proper sports suspension components or just the cheapest components he could find.
If the difference was also in the suspension arms and suspension design, it would make sense in chasing the "real" sports suspension. But if it's only springs and dumpers then not so much. The only reason left to chase a higher trim is resale value and image. You know, just so one can say he has a MV6 or whatever. But I have the impression this doesn't really matter much. Besides since I want the V6, I think that engine only came with the premium trims anyway, correct?
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Thanks for the input. And I guess the MV6 just doesn't go fast enough to have the same problem, so they deleted the self leveling function for the sports suspension for some reason?
Just to pick up on this, the Elite's self levelling system does have a vehicle speed input, so it's not impossible that it is adaptive to high speed driving but, of course, the MV6 doesn't have the self levelling at all and the Elite suspension is a bit wallowy, IMHO.
Slightly off topic, but just add the Self Levelling on the stronger Police Supension setup on the Estates works well, even at speed, and either loaded or unloaded in the back. :y
What is the difference between the stronger Police Suspension and the stock and MV6 suspensions? Thanks.
Stronger Heavy Duty and stiffer over normal, you could through them around quiet happily, ride height about the same as stock, handling wise very similar drive to the Factory spec MV6.
Police Estate came with Self leveling Police Saloons didn't, most Police had LSD Diffs fitted, again the Police suspension was well suited to that, stopped the rear diff from potentially oscillating when the LSD kicked in, as can happen with softer suspension.
Which Omega trims had LSD Diffs fitted by the way?
None, in the UK, Police only, dont believe its was an optional extra on stock.
So the Omega never had a LSD? Pity. But I seem to have read Omegas with them. Probably aftermarket? Is it a difficult or expensive DIY job?
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Again, I think almost none of us can speak with certainty for Euro-spec cars. There may well have been, but in the UK there wasn't, unless there were some special order - perhaps government or Royal cars had 'special' underneath parts. (yes, the British Government and Royal Family's official cars were Omegas for a while, plus unmarked / CID Police used them too of course :y)
As has been advised, get yourself a good shell, then engine, the rest is changeable. Ok, now there will be 'Opel Omegas' with LSDs - what we call Carltons (GSi 3000) as well as Senators. You're probably aware that they were named differently in the UK to Europe, but just wanted to clarify.
It is possibly to install the LSD internals into an Omega diff, though the other thing to remember is that much of the 'limited slip' of the diff has worn out on higher mileage. I posted a link some time ago (get searching on here! :)) which a very well known engineering firm tested one after about 80k miles, and found a large proportion of the 'limited slip' had worn out. Its just the design of it, it's like a clutch, they wear / wear out eventually. I wonder if fitting another LSD from another car would be doable, rather than a lot of time and expense in refurbishing an old Omega diff. But that's something for you to think about when you#ve got the thing up your drive! No point getting bogged down in all that yet :y
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Yep, I know the Omega A is called the Carlton back in the UK. I just moved here for work. ;)
So this is what people have been doing. Fitting old Carlton LSDs in Omega Bs. Interesting. But you have a point about they probably being old and worn by now. And I gather you can't get them new anymore?
By the way I found some information about differentials on a German website which mentions locking differentials available for the Omega B? I'm not sure if I'm misreading it. My German is not really that great. But Google also translates it as locking differential.
Here is the Google translation:
"From the 1997 model year onwards, the "Traction Control Plus" was available for all six-cylinder units, which had an effect like a locking differential when a drive wheel was turned through by means of an intervention in the engine control and brake engagement.
From the use of the "TC Plus" no separate locking differential was available for the Omega with six-cylinder engine.
For the four-cylinder engines, however, only the blocking differential, but not the TC Plus, was available."
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It was at the time where TC systems were looking like they may replace LSDs, I suppose. The earlier TC literally cuts power to both rear wheels, the later does a little more, splitting the power between both rear wheels (if one wheel's on ice, the other on dry, warm tarmac etc) very late top spec Omegas got EBD, too, I believe.
I was going to comment how good your English was actually! :D
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Yep, the later TC actually brakes the rear wheel that's slipping most, transferring torque to the other wheel through the open diff.
I'm guessing in parts of mainland europe that had more extreme weather the LSD was an option but they are very rare in the UK and unheard of on the 4 pot Omegas. Ditto EBD and stability control.
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It was at the time where TC systems were looking like they may replace LSDs, I suppose. The earlier TC literally cuts power to both rear wheels, the later does a little more, splitting the power between both rear wheels (if one wheel's on ice, the other on dry, warm tarmac etc) very late top spec Omegas got EBD, too, I believe.
I was going to comment how good your English was actually! :D
:)
But my German, not so much. :(
But I'm moving along.
It does look like the later the model the better. All this just adds to my dilemma of wanting a B1 for the looks but a B2 for the rest. And even a B2 I would need an earlier one if I want a V6 manual. Just don't feel like doing gearboxes and engines swaps. But it looks like if I want everything in the Omega, a Frankenstein is the only way. Which means lots of work :'(
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Yep, the later TC actually brakes the rear wheel that's slipping most, transferring torque to the other wheel through the open diff.
I'm guessing in parts of mainland europe that had more extreme weather the LSD was an option but they are very rare in the UK and unheard of on the 4 pot Omegas. Ditto EBD and stability control.
So the later TC was effectively a LSD then.
It makes sense that people in the Alps would want a car with LSD and so they might have been available. Good tip! I will investigate further. ;)
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So the later TC was effectively a LSD then.
I wouldn't quite say that. From a driving perspective, it's far from an LSD.
In terms of stopping a powerful car from being a death trap with an inexperienced driver on a wet / icy road, it probably does the same job. In fact, an LSD would tend to make the back end a bit more liable to break away, so it's probably better.
From a point of view of getting some traction in ice / snow / mud in the scenario where one rear wheel just spins, it's a help.
From a point of view of maximising traction out of a bend where the inner rear wheel can start to slip as you get on the power, it's a hindrance because, in addition to braking the slipping wheel, it quickly reverts to cutting the power as well, meaning the car just bogs down (often when you're "nipping" out of a T junction into a gap in the traffic) :o.
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So the later TC was effectively a LSD then.
I wouldn't quite say that. From a driving perspective, it's far from an LSD.
In terms of stopping a powerful car from being a death trap with an inexperienced driver on a wet / icy road, it probably does the same job. In fact, an LSD would tend to make the back end a bit more liable to break away, so it's probably better.
From a point of view of getting some traction in ice / snow / mud in the scenario where one rear wheel just spins, it's a help.
From a point of view of maximising traction out of a bend where the inner rear wheel can start to slip as you get on the power, it's a hindrance because, in addition to braking the slipping wheel, it quickly reverts to cutting the power as well, meaning the car just bogs down (often when you're "nipping" out of a T junction into a gap in the traffic) :o.
:o
Can the TC be turned off?
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TC is switchable, yes.
For the LSD queries check out ye olde thread (and specifically the link I post) here....
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=132846.msg1702119#msg1702119
:)
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None, in the UK, Police only, dont believe its was an optional extra on stock.
So the Omega never had a LSD? Pity. But I seem to have read Omegas with them. Probably aftermarket? Is it a difficult or expensive DIY job?
Didn't actually say that, Quote: Not in the UK, I believe some Northern Euro Countries, Finland, Norway, etc, some had them, no idea whether it was Standard Fitment or Optional Extra though.
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Yes, paying attention to the seats sounds like a great tip. :)
So the Recaros came out in leather as well? In the Omega Sport it seems they were only cloth.
By the way, it is just the name plates that were mixed up, right? Opel didn't actually make different cars for both markets. They were just called different names. (?)
Ok, quoting, In the UK again, Factory V6 MV6's had Sports Seats clothe or leather options, believe the 4 pot Sports only came in Clothe.
They didn't just mix the badges up, as said before VX models and specs, trims etc didn't necessarily follow Opel models, and again Im guessing Opel models probably varied or may have been country specific.
Example on the Seats, heres a pic of one of the Opel Type Sports Recaros that we never got in the UK.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/billycabrio/Vauxhall%20Omega%20Estate%20V6/RecaroSeat.jpg)
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They are heavenly-looking seats.
As above, just get a decent car with the engine you want, they're the two biggest hurdles, the rest really is not hard, and you always were going to do a project vehicle. If you want it all done for you, then buy a Monaro, VXR8, or any number of other things with other badges, be it M, RS, VRS, AMG etc...
Don't let yoursef get too bogged down in the specifics. Some models have this, some don't etc...
other than pub bragging right about an LSD, I don't see the point really, I think even the most hardened car nut would have to admit that you're really not going to see the effect of a LSD on the road very much/often. And if you do feel the benefit, that person's perhaps driving a bit too close to the car's limits given that there are other people using said roads/pavements nearby. ;)
Get something with a 6 cyl engine, ideally a manual if you don't want to faff of swapping that over. Make it what you want it to be, over a period of years, where funds allow.
Your question is 'which Omega to buy?' Thing is, if it's PFL/MFL it won't have rain sensing wipers, [probably] no HID, temp-adjustable heated seats, internal boot release. If it's a FL it won't look as nice (subjective), many models lose the sunroof, later V6 engines are strangled for emissions, lose the cable throttles, for UK buyers they pay higher tax on post 2001(I think) cars. But aguments over 'which model Omega is the best' have raged for many a year and are always ultimately flawed, because everyone's Omega is the best, because the answer is always "mine." And rightly so. You make your Omega the best for you.
If your criteria is 'highest spec, most kit and toys' then get a 2004 reg 3.2 Elite. But then a bloke with a rusty 1994 Elite will go "Awww, you don't have an air-conditioned glovebox and rear side window demist vents? Bless" it's the way things go. 8)
But I appreciate you're just trying to get a feel for the model(s) and what's going to suit. Might sound daft, but how about buying yourself a few old brochures from ebay, they're often a couple of quid, plus postage, and it will give you a comprehensive idea of what's out there, get two or three from different years and you'll have a broad view of the range.
:y
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None, in the UK, Police only, dont believe its was an optional extra on stock.
So the Omega never had a LSD? Pity. But I seem to have read Omegas with them. Probably aftermarket? Is it a difficult or expensive DIY job?
Didn't actually say that, Quote: Not in the UK, I believe some Northern Euro Countries, Finland, Norway, etc, some had them, no idea whether it was Standard Fitment or Optional Extra though.
Yes, paying attention to the seats sounds like a great tip. :)
So the Recaros came out in leather as well? In the Omega Sport it seems they were only cloth.
By the way, it is just the name plates that were mixed up, right? Opel didn't actually make different cars for both markets. They were just called different names. (?)
Ok, quoting, In the UK again, Factory V6 MV6's had Sports Seats clothe or leather options, believe the 4 pot Sports only came in Clothe.
They didn't just mix the badges up, as said before VX models and specs, trims etc didn't necessarily follow Opel models, and again Im guessing Opel models probably varied or may have been country specific.
Example on the Seats, heres a pic of one of the Opel Type Sports Recaros that we never got in the UK.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/billycabrio/Vauxhall%20Omega%20Estate%20V6/RecaroSeat.jpg)
Yes, sorry. All the UK and not UK versions get confusing. I didn't mean you implied all Omegas didn't have the LSD.
I have indeed seen cars with those exact seats for sale here. :y
All the different versions between the UK and Germany make it difficult to get information in English which is also accurate to the German models. And as most of my research needs to be in English because of my language barrier, that throws a big wrench into things.
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They are heavenly-looking seats.
As above, just get a decent car with the engine you want, they're the two biggest hurdles, the rest really is not hard, and you always were going to do a project vehicle. If you want it all done for you, then buy a Monaro, VXR8, or any number of other things with other badges, be it M, RS, VRS, AMG etc...
Don't let yoursef get too bogged down in the specifics. Some models have this, some don't etc...
other than pub bragging right about an LSD, I don't see the point really, I think even the most hardened car nut would have to admit that you're really not going to see the effect of a LSD on the road very much/often. And if you do feel the benefit, that person's perhaps driving a bit too close to the car's limits given that there are other people using said roads/pavements nearby. ;)
Get something with a 6 cyl engine, ideally a manual if you don't want to faff of swapping that over. Make it what you want it to be, over a period of years, where funds allow.
Your question is 'which Omega to buy?' Thing is, if it's PFL/MFL it won't have rain sensing wipers, [probably] no HID, temp-adjustable heated seats, internal boot release. If it's a FL it won't look as nice (subjective), many models lose the sunroof, later V6 engines are strangled for emissions, lose the cable throttles, for UK buyers they pay higher tax on post 2001(I think) cars. But aguments over 'which model Omega is the best' have raged for many a year and are always ultimately flawed, because everyone's Omega is the best, because the answer is always "mine." And rightly so. You make your Omega the best for you.
If your criteria is 'highest spec, most kit and toys' then get a 2004 reg 3.2 Elite. But then a bloke with a rusty 1994 Elite will go "Awww, you don't have an air-conditioned glovebox and rear side window demist vents? Bless" it's the way things go. 8)
But I appreciate you're just trying to get a feel for the model(s) and what's going to suit. Might sound daft, but how about buying yourself a few old brochures from ebay, they're often a couple of quid, plus postage, and it will give you a comprehensive idea of what's out there, get two or three from different years and you'll have a broad view of the range.
:y
Yes, definitely. At this point I have a very good idea of what type of Omega I'm looking for. I'm just enjoying chatting and learning about the car with people who also like them and know way more than I do about them. ;)
But I'm going for motor, millage/condition, interior, colour, then the rest.
Although I feel a LSD also helps a lot on ice, snow or rain, even if not driving any close to the limit. But it won't be a deal breaker at all.
But oh no! The FL cars lost the air-conditioned glove box??? :D This is the feature that stuck on my mind the most as a neighbor had one and always bragged about carrying beer in there when I was a teenager. ;D.
The tip about getting old brochures from ebay is a good one and I'm actually already on it. I was looking for the Haynes book on the Omega FL but only found it for the B1. Also checked brochures and other materials.
I'm keeping my eyes open for a car that fits what I want. I guess the best compromise will be a 2000 car. So I can get a manual transmission with a 3.0 V6, not lose the cable throttle and get around the emissions strangle while getting most of the creature comforts of the FL cars. 2001 loses me the 3.0 manual and won't even get me more comforts as the next change was 2002. I think ESP for example only came in 2002 and later cars. At least TC was there from the beginning.
The front end will be easy enough to change to PFL if I really want it. It will all depend on how much of a problem is to change the rear.
By the way what does MFL mean? Mid-face lift? :P
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Euroland also had green and rockinghorseshitrate red leather options...
Basically buy the best 3.0/3.2 Facelift car you see/can afford/like the colour of... Then budget a further €2-3k making it YOUR car.
Job jobbed :y
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Yes, definitely. At this point I have a very good idea of what type of Omega I'm looking for. I'm just enjoying chatting and learning about the car with people who also like them and know way more than I do about them. ;)
But I'm going for motor, millage/condition, interior, colour, then the rest.
Any Service History would be nice, or having previous Owners who knew how to look after them, Low Millage would be handy as well as former number of Keepers, Re your other thread on Performance Mods, probably a better idea to try and find one that hasn't lost too many Horses in the first place rather than trying tune up a shagged out engine.
Although I feel a LSD also helps a lot on ice, snow or rain, even if not driving any close to the limit. But it won't be a deal breaker at all.
Probably a bit late in the day to search for LSD, bear in mind your looking at a 14+ year old car now, the chances of finding one is very slim these days.
But oh no! The FL cars lost the air-conditioned glove box??? :D This is the feature that stuck on my mind the most as a neighbor had one and always bragged about carrying beer in there when I was a teenager. ;D.
The tip about getting old brochures from ebay is a good one and I'm actually already on it. I was looking for the Haynes book on the Omega FL but only found it for the B1. Also checked brochures and other materials.
Haynes never did one for the Facelift.
I'm keeping my eyes open for a car that fits what I want. I guess the best compromise will be a 2000 car. So I can get a manual transmission with a 3.0 V6, not lose the cable throttle and get around the emissions strangle while getting most of the creature comforts of the FL cars. 2001 loses me the 3.0 manual and won't even get me more comforts as the next change was 2002. I think ESP for example only came in 2002 and later cars. At least TC was there from the beginning.
The front end will be easy enough to change to PFL if I really want it. It will all depend on how much of a problem is to change the rear.
By the way what does MFL mean? Mid-face lift? :P
PFL, MFL, FL = PreFaceLift up to 97/98, MiniFaceLift 97/98 to 2000, Facelift 2000 to 2003
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Euroland also had green and rockinghorseshitrate red leather options...
Basically buy the best 3.0/3.2 Facelift car you see/can afford/like the colour of... Then budget a further €2-3k making it YOUR car.
Job jobbed :y
Yep. This is the budget I had thought to make it my own. :y
But I can't go with a 3.2. The manual transmission transplant would eat a lot of my budget. I also don't want to lose the cable throttle. So it must be a 3.0. I'm not seeing a way around that. Besides I don't really see any advantages with the 3.2 for my applications. ;)
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FL MV6 is basically CD spec internally.
MFL MV6 is basically CDX spec internally.
If goodies are what you want, start with a Elite 3.0/3.2 as a base (as the 3.0/3.3 not available on CDX). Suspension is easy to change :)
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FL MV6 is basically CD spec internally.
MFL MV6 is basically CDX spec internally.
If goodies are what you want, start with a Elite 3.0/3.2 as a base (as the 3.0/3.3 not available on CDX). Suspension is a service item :)
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Yes, definitely. At this point I have a very good idea of what type of Omega I'm looking for. I'm just enjoying chatting and learning about the car with people who also like them and know way more than I do about them. ;)
But I'm going for motor, millage/condition, interior, colour, then the rest.
Any Service History would be nice, or having previous Owners who knew how to look after them, Low Millage would be handy as well as former number of Keepers, Re your other thread on Performance Mods, probably a better idea to try and find one that hasn't lost too many Horses in the first place rather than trying tune up a shagged out engine.
Yes, one with a good engine which hasn't lost too many horses would be great. But the first thing I will do when I get it is to do a partial engine rebuild, meaning from the head up. Then suspension with new dampers, bushings and most likely springs unless they look really good. Only then I will think about tuning the engine. ;)
A remap will be certain. From there I have been reading conflicting reports, also in this site and the old version of it about what works and what doesn't when tuning the V6 3.0 engine.
Although I feel a LSD also helps a lot on ice, snow or rain, even if not driving any close to the limit. But it won't be a deal breaker at all.
Probably a bit late in the day to search for LSD, bear in mind your looking at a 14+ year old car now, the chances of finding one is very slim these days.
You say that because you are referring to ex police cars as the source for LSD equipped Omegas? Or because by now even if they had a LSD it will be too worn out?
If the former, remember that I'm now living in continental Europe and here consumer cars may have come with LSDs. If the later, yes point well taken. I would have to look into rebuilding prices and see. But a worn out LSD mechanism is basically just a non LSD, so no loss there?
But oh no! The FL cars lost the air-conditioned glove box??? :D This is the feature that stuck on my mind the most as a neighbor had one and always bragged about carrying beer in there when I was a teenager. ;D.
The tip about getting old brochures from ebay is a good one and I'm actually already on it. I was looking for the Haynes book on the Omega FL but only found it for the B1. Also checked brochures and other materials.
Haynes never did one for the Facelift.
I see. Are there any alternatives to the Haynes for FL cars?
I'm keeping my eyes open for a car that fits what I want. I guess the best compromise will be a 2000 car. So I can get a manual transmission with a 3.0 V6, not lose the cable throttle and get around the emissions strangle while getting most of the creature comforts of the FL cars. 2001 loses me the 3.0 manual and won't even get me more comforts as the next change was 2002. I think ESP for example only came in 2002 and later cars. At least TC was there from the beginning.
The front end will be easy enough to change to PFL if I really want it. It will all depend on how much of a problem is to change the rear.
By the way what does MFL mean? Mid-face lift? :P
PFL, MFL, FL = PreFaceLift up to 97/98, MiniFaceLift 97/98 to 2000, Facelift 2000 to 2003
What is a MiniFaceLift car? 1999 was the first year the FL cars were sold right?
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Yes, definitely. At this point I have a very good idea of what type of Omega I'm looking for. I'm just enjoying chatting and learning about the car with people who also like them and know way more than I do about them. ;)
But I'm going for motor, millage/condition, interior, colour, then the rest.
Any Service History would be nice, or having previous Owners who knew how to look after them, Low Millage would be handy as well as former number of Keepers, Re your other thread on Performance Mods, probably a better idea to try and find one that hasn't lost too many Horses in the first place rather than trying tune up a shagged out engine.
Yes, one with a good engine which hasn't lost too many horses would be great. But the first thing I will do when I get it is to do a partial engine rebuild, meaning from the head up. Then suspension with new dampers, bushings and most likely springs unless they look really good. Only then I will think about tuning the engine. ;)
A remap will be certain. From there I have been reading conflicting reports, also in this site and the old version of it about what works and what doesn't when tuning the V6 3.0 engine.
Will be a Re Chip on the 3.0, yes it helps gives improvements but dont expect major gains, should give improved MPG as well, just dont buy the rubbish on ebay.
Although I feel a LSD also helps a lot on ice, snow or rain, even if not driving any close to the limit. But it won't be a deal breaker at all.
Probably a bit late in the day to search for LSD, bear in mind your looking at a 14+ year old car now, the chances of finding one is very slim these days.
You say that because you are referring to ex police cars as the source for LSD equipped Omegas? Or because by now even if they had a LSD it will be too worn out?
If the former, remember that I'm now living in continental Europe and here consumer cars may have come with LSDs. If the later, yes point well taken. I would have to look into rebuilding prices and see. But a worn out LSD mechanism is basically just a non LSD, so no loss there?
As in, you probably wont find one, but you can always try and prove me wrong.
But oh no! The FL cars lost the air-conditioned glove box??? :D This is the feature that stuck on my mind the most as a neighbor had one and always bragged about carrying beer in there when I was a teenager. ;D.
The tip about getting old brochures from ebay is a good one and I'm actually already on it. I was looking for the Haynes book on the Omega FL but only found it for the B1. Also checked brochures and other materials.
Haynes never did one for the Facelift.
I see. Are there any alternatives to the Haynes for FL cars?
Nope, not really needed, whats not covered has been pretty much discussed on here.
I'm keeping my eyes open for a car that fits what I want. I guess the best compromise will be a 2000 car. So I can get a manual transmission with a 3.0 V6, not lose the cable throttle and get around the emissions strangle while getting most of the creature comforts of the FL cars. 2001 loses me the 3.0 manual and won't even get me more comforts as the next change was 2002. I think ESP for example only came in 2002 and later cars. At least TC was there from the beginning.
The front end will be easy enough to change to PFL if I really want it. It will all depend on how much of a problem is to change the rear.
By the way what does MFL mean? Mid-face lift? :P
PFL, MFL, FL = PreFaceLift up to 97/98, MiniFaceLift 97/98 to 2000, Facelift 2000 to 2003
What is a MiniFaceLift car? 1999 was the first year the FL cars were sold right?
Yea, very few FL came from 99 as did few MFL in 2000. it was a change over year, also if you remember 2000 was where the UK cramped all the final Alphabet in preparation for the index numbering.
MFL basically as the name suggests some minor changes to the older PFL, before the FL or what you the B2.[/color][/size][/color]
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Although I feel a LSD also helps a lot on ice, snow or rain, even if not driving any close to the limit. But it won't be a deal breaker at all.
Probably a bit late in the day to search for LSD, bear in mind your looking at a 14+ year old car now, the chances of finding one is very slim these days.
You say that because you are referring to ex police cars as the source for LSD equipped Omegas? Or because by now even if they had a LSD it will be too worn out?
If the former, remember that I'm now living in continental Europe and here consumer cars may have come with LSDs. If the later, yes point well taken. I would have to look into rebuilding prices and see. But a worn out LSD mechanism is basically just a non LSD, so no loss there?
Although if you took a LSD to a specialist he would probably say it would need a full rebuild but this doesn`t mean it doesn`t work. My old Senator had 350k on the clock and the LSD still worked :y
One thing to bear in mind when sourcing one is how it has been stored if it hasn`t been used as the oil can gum up the cutch plates up to the oil level and if that happens it`ll definitely need new clutch plates.
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Yes, definitely. At this point I have a very good idea of what type of Omega I'm looking for. I'm just enjoying chatting and learning about the car with people who also like them and know way more than I do about them. ;)
But I'm going for motor, millage/condition, interior, colour, then the rest.
Any Service History would be nice, or having previous Owners who knew how to look after them, Low Millage would be handy as well as former number of Keepers, Re your other thread on Performance Mods, probably a better idea to try and find one that hasn't lost too many Horses in the first place rather than trying tune up a shagged out engine.
Yes, one with a good engine which hasn't lost too many horses would be great. But the first thing I will do when I get it is to do a partial engine rebuild, meaning from the head up. Then suspension with new dampers, bushings and most likely springs unless they look really good. Only then I will think about tuning the engine. ;)
A remap will be certain. From there I have been reading conflicting reports, also in this site and the old version of it about what works and what doesn't when tuning the V6 3.0 engine.
Will be a Re Chip on the 3.0, yes it helps gives improvements but dont expect major gains, should give improved MPG as well, just dont buy the rubbish on ebay.
Although I feel a LSD also helps a lot on ice, snow or rain, even if not driving any close to the limit. But it won't be a deal breaker at all.
Probably a bit late in the day to search for LSD, bear in mind your looking at a 14+ year old car now, the chances of finding one is very slim these days.
You say that because you are referring to ex police cars as the source for LSD equipped Omegas? Or because by now even if they had a LSD it will be too worn out?
If the former, remember that I'm now living in continental Europe and here consumer cars may have come with LSDs. If the later, yes point well taken. I would have to look into rebuilding prices and see. But a worn out LSD mechanism is basically just a non LSD, so no loss there?
As in, you probably wont find one, but you can always try and prove me wrong.
But oh no! The FL cars lost the air-conditioned glove box??? :D This is the feature that stuck on my mind the most as a neighbor had one and always bragged about carrying beer in there when I was a teenager. ;D.
The tip about getting old brochures from ebay is a good one and I'm actually already on it. I was looking for the Haynes book on the Omega FL but only found it for the B1. Also checked brochures and other materials.
Haynes never did one for the Facelift.
I see. Are there any alternatives to the Haynes for FL cars?
Nope, not really needed, whats not covered has been pretty much discussed on here.
I'm keeping my eyes open for a car that fits what I want. I guess the best compromise will be a 2000 car. So I can get a manual transmission with a 3.0 V6, not lose the cable throttle and get around the emissions strangle while getting most of the creature comforts of the FL cars. 2001 loses me the 3.0 manual and won't even get me more comforts as the next change was 2002. I think ESP for example only came in 2002 and later cars. At least TC was there from the beginning.
The front end will be easy enough to change to PFL if I really want it. It will all depend on how much of a problem is to change the rear.
By the way what does MFL mean? Mid-face lift? :P
PFL, MFL, FL = PreFaceLift up to 97/98, MiniFaceLift 97/98 to 2000, Facelift 2000 to 2003
What is a MiniFaceLift car? 1999 was the first year the FL cars were sold right?
Yea, very few FL came from 99 as did few MFL in 2000. it was a change over year, also if you remember 2000 was where the UK cramped all the final Alphabet in preparation for the index numbering.
MFL basically as the name suggests some minor changes to the older PFL, before the FL or what you the B2.[/color][/size][/color]
Ok, thanks. Which chip or remapping would you recommend then? By the way, is chip and remap the same process?
So I would be fine with buying the Haynes for the PFL cars and using it to work on a FL car?
What were the changes in the MFL cars?
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Although I feel a LSD also helps a lot on ice, snow or rain, even if not driving any close to the limit. But it won't be a deal breaker at all.
Probably a bit late in the day to search for LSD, bear in mind your looking at a 14+ year old car now, the chances of finding one is very slim these days.
You say that because you are referring to ex police cars as the source for LSD equipped Omegas? Or because by now even if they had a LSD it will be too worn out?
If the former, remember that I'm now living in continental Europe and here consumer cars may have come with LSDs. If the later, yes point well taken. I would have to look into rebuilding prices and see. But a worn out LSD mechanism is basically just a non LSD, so no loss there?
Although if you took a LSD to a specialist he would probably say it would need a full rebuild but this doesn`t mean it doesn`t work. My old Senator had 350k on the clock and the LSD still worked :y
One thing to bear in mind when sourcing one is how it has been stored if it hasn`t been used as the oil can gum up the cutch plates up to the oil level and if that happens it`ll definitely need new clutch plates.
That's all great info, thanks! :y
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That's fine, as has been said, much of the differences between PFL/MFL and FL is cosmetic. So a Haynes will cover you fine. At the same time, it's perfectly doable to run an Omega for years without buying one, as so much is on here, now. However don't be surprised if you ask certain things and get the response "it's in the Haynes!"
where this site is at its best is that certain procedures that Haynes did on a brand new vehicle really aren't as simple on a 20 year old one; and various methods they use are needlessly 'round the houses' but on this site the how tos are written by people who've done it maybe a dozen times, and can speak from experience how is best/easiest.
Still worth getting one, as I say, if nothing else but torque wrench settings. :)
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Great to know. Thanks! :y
I've been doing some reading on differentials etc.
The manual V6 has a Final Drive Ratio of 3.70, which is not bad at all. It's the same a the VXR8 too. Not as biased towards top speed as the Lotus Carlton's 3.45, but then again neither could it go nearly as fast. ;D
The automatic cars have a 3.90 FDR.
What surprised me though was the gear ratios of the V6 manuals. Much shorter gears than for example the Monaros. Never drove a Monaro but are they pretty lethargic to drive?
Anyhow it seems the manual V6 is good enough in the differential department to turn into a performance saloon. I guess the suspension is also not a problem. Now is on to tuning the dreaded V6 engine. ::)
By the way, the Omega is definitely available with a LSD here. I have seen a few listed. At least this is what I think they mean by "locked differential" or 45% differential.
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Monaro? Lethargic? ;D
They weigh less than an Omega, and start with 330ish bhp... their gearing is quite lazy, but you simply use second if you're in a rush, otherwise pull away in fourth and straight into sixth at around 40mph and leave it there... all the way to well over 150mph (space/legalities permitting :-X) :y
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Hmm.... 'locked diff' sounds more like a welded one to me, could be wrong.... ???
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Hmm.... 'locked diff' sounds more like a welded one to me, could be wrong.... ???
What do you mean by welded one?
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Monaro? Lethargic? ;D
They weigh less than an Omega, and start with 330ish bhp... their gearing is quite lazy, but you simply use second if you're in a rush, otherwise pull away in fourth and straight into sixth at around 40mph and leave it there... all the way to well over 150mph (space/legalities permitting :-X) :y
I didn't mean it is slow in top speed or anything. I mean exactly that the gears are overlong. This makes for less exciting driving anyway you look at it. :)
So it's lethargic in that way. And just doing some more research on the Monaro, Clarkson complained about the same thing. ;)
It was so much of a problem that the newer ones in Australia got a new gearbox with shorter gears.
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Monaro? Lethargic? ;D
They weigh less than an Omega, and start with 330ish bhp... their gearing is quite lazy, but you simply use second if you're in a rush, otherwise pull away in fourth and straight into sixth at around 40mph and leave it there... all the way to well over 150mph (space/legalities permitting :-X) :y
I didn't mean it is slow in top speed or anything. I mean exactly that the gears are overlong. This makes for less exciting driving anyway you look at it. :)
So it's lethargic in that way. And just doing some more research on the Monaro, Clarkson complained about the same thing. ;)
It was so much of a problem that the newer ones in Australia got a new gearbox with shorter gears.
You have to remember that the power delivery of the engine will be very different between the V6 and V8, and this accounts for the change in gearing. An LS2 will probably deliver double the torque of the V6, and there's no point having the gearing deliver more torque than you have traction, so you make the gears longer. In addition, the maximum speed will be much higher and the engine will probably deliver maximum power at a lower RPM than the V6.
IME they aren't particularly "lazy" cars to drive. :D
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Great to know. Thanks! :y
I've been doing some reading on differentials etc.
The manual V6 has a Final Drive Ratio of 3.70, which is not bad at all. It's the same a the VXR8 too. Not as biased towards top speed as the Lotus Carlton's 3.45, but then again neither could it go nearly as fast. ;D
The automatic cars have a 3.90 FDR.
What surprised me though was the gear ratios of the V6 manuals. Much shorter gears than for example the Monaros. Never drove a Monaro but are they pretty lethargic to drive?
Anyhow it seems the manual V6 is good enough in the differential department to turn into a performance saloon. I guess the suspension is also not a problem. Now is on to tuning the dreaded V6 engine. ::)
By the way, the Omega is definitely available with a LSD here. I have seen a few listed. At least this is what I think they mean by "locked differential" or 45% differential.
The LC has a 6 speed gearbox and IIRC top speed was hit in fifth as sixth was too tall for the revs to rise any further.
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Monaro? Lethargic? ;D
They weigh less than an Omega, and start with 330ish bhp... their gearing is quite lazy, but you simply use second if you're in a rush, otherwise pull away in fourth and straight into sixth at around 40mph and leave it there... all the way to well over 150mph (space/legalities permitting :-X) :y
I didn't mean it is slow in top speed or anything. I mean exactly that the gears are overlong. This makes for less exciting driving anyway you look at it. :)
So it's lethargic in that way. And just doing some more research on the Monaro, Clarkson complained about the same thing. ;)
It was so much of a problem that the newer ones in Australia got a new gearbox with shorter gears.
You have to remember that the power delivery of the engine will be very different between the V6 and V8, and this accounts for the change in gearing. An LS2 will probably deliver double the torque of the V6, and there's no point having the gearing deliver more torque than you have traction, so you make the gears longer. In addition, the maximum speed will be much higher and the engine will probably deliver maximum power at a lower RPM than the V6.
IME they aren't particularly "lazy" cars to drive. :D
I understand what you are saying. But Holden did change it to shorter gears later on. So they must have seen a problem with it too. ;)
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Great to know. Thanks! :y
I've been doing some reading on differentials etc.
The manual V6 has a Final Drive Ratio of 3.70, which is not bad at all. It's the same a the VXR8 too. Not as biased towards top speed as the Lotus Carlton's 3.45, but then again neither could it go nearly as fast. ;D
The automatic cars have a 3.90 FDR.
What surprised me though was the gear ratios of the V6 manuals. Much shorter gears than for example the Monaros. Never drove a Monaro but are they pretty lethargic to drive?
Anyhow it seems the manual V6 is good enough in the differential department to turn into a performance saloon. I guess the suspension is also not a problem. Now is on to tuning the dreaded V6 engine. ::)
By the way, the Omega is definitely available with a LSD here. I have seen a few listed. At least this is what I think they mean by "locked differential" or 45% differential.
The LC has a 6 speed gearbox and IIRC top speed was hit in fifth as sixth was too tall for the revs to rise any further.
Very interesting. :y
I didn't know that.
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Everything you need to know about gear ratios is here: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90497.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90497.0)
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Thanks for the link. I will check it out.
On a different note, while looking for Omegas MV6 online I came across a Carlton GSi in very good nick for a very, very good price. I always liked the Carlton. Despite it's faults (like any other car) I always thought it looked nice. I wonder if it will ever become a classic. Probably not.
But the GSi in question looks really good and my wallet start itching. ;D Am I crazy??
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Thanks for the link. I will check it out.
On a different note, while looking for Omegas MV6 online I came across a Carlton GSi in very good nick for a very, very good price. I always liked the Carlton. Despite it's faults (like any other car) I always thought it looked nice. I wonder if it will ever become a classic. Probably not.
But the GSi in question looks really good and my wallet start itching. ;D Am I crazy??
Buy it. It is twice the car the Omega will be... Especially with an Irmscher 4.0 lump 8)
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Thanks for the link. I will check it out.
On a different note, while looking for Omegas MV6 online I came across a Carlton GSi in very good nick for a very, very good price. I always liked the Carlton. Despite it's faults (like any other car) I always thought it looked nice. I wonder if it will ever become a classic. Probably not.
But the GSi in question looks really good and my wallet start itching. ;D Am I crazy??
Buy it. It is twice the car the Omega will be... Especially with an Irmscher 4.0 lump 8)
It is not an Irmscher though. It's the standard Opel i-6 3.0 24v.
Also, I'm about to buy the Haynes book for the Omega B. I obviously need to buy the English version, which is for the Vauxhall. With all the confusing trims between German and UK versions, do I have to worry about using the Vauxhall Haynes for an Opel?
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Thanks for the link. I will check it out.
On a different note, while looking for Omegas MV6 online I came across a Carlton GSi in very good nick for a very, very good price. I always liked the Carlton. Despite it's faults (like any other car) I always thought it looked nice. I wonder if it will ever become a classic. Probably not.
But the GSi in question looks really good and my wallet start itching. ;D Am I crazy??
Buy it. It is twice the car the Omega will be... Especially with an Irmscher 4.0 lump 8)
It is not an Irmscher though. It's the standard Opel i-6 3.0 24v.
Also, I'm about to buy the Haynes book for the Omega B. I obviously need to buy the English version, which is for the Vauxhall. With all the confusing trims between German and UK versions, do I have to worry about using the Vauxhall Haynes for an Opel?
I meant you could readily fit the 24v 4.0 bits to it ::)
Haynes is perfect unless you don't know the difference between left/right and passenger/driver ;D
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Thanks for the link. I will check it out.
On a different note, while looking for Omegas MV6 online I came across a Carlton GSi in very good nick for a very, very good price. I always liked the Carlton. Despite it's faults (like any other car) I always thought it looked nice. I wonder if it will ever become a classic. Probably not.
But the GSi in question looks really good and my wallet start itching. ;D Am I crazy??
Buy it. It is twice the car the Omega will be... Especially with an Irmscher 4.0 lump 8)
It is not an Irmscher though. It's the standard Opel i-6 3.0 24v.
Also, I'm about to buy the Haynes book for the Omega B. I obviously need to buy the English version, which is for the Vauxhall. With all the confusing trims between German and UK versions, do I have to worry about using the Vauxhall Haynes for an Opel?
I meant you could readily fit the 24v 4.0 bits to it ::)
Haynes is perfect unless you don't know the difference between left/right and passenger/driver ;D
I see what you mean now. :)
I guess I didn't see before because I would think the Irmscher engine is not easy to come by. They seem more rare than the Lotus Carlton. Probably because they were just as expensive but made over 100bhp less than the Lotus. So I doubt it's easy to find a Irmscher 4.0. engine for a swap. But are you saying the bits to turn a 3.0 into a 4.0 are readily available?
But Gollum, may I ask what makes you say the Carlton GSi is twice the car the Omega would ever be? Looking at the specs, the power of the 24v 3.0 I-6 is basically the same as the V6 3.0. I think the Carlton is a bit lighter than the Omega and I know the chassis are similar. But the Omega surely is more modern, which I would think would be a positive somehow. So why is the GSi twice the car in your opinion?
Thanks for the tip on the Haynes. :y
I was just afraid some parts would be different between the Opels and Vauxhall.
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Here's why...
http://m.ebay.de/itm/Irmscher-Nockenwelle-C40SE-C30SE-Motor-Senator-i4-0-24V-Omega-A-3-0i-24V-/252585141461?nav=SEARCH
http://m.ebay.de/itm/Opel-Omega-EVO-500-3-0-DTM-Crankshaft-Vilebrequin-Kurbelwelle-/272427043713?nav=SEARCH
http://m.ebay.de/itm/Opel-Omega-A-Automatic-C40-SE-24V-Edelstahl-Faecherkruemmer-Einmalig-Neu-/232123519095?nav=SEARCH
http://m.ebay.de/itm/Irmscher-Steuergeraet-Motronic-C40SE-Senator-B-i-4-0-/252551655124?nav=SEARCH
Actually, forget that lot and buy this...
http://m.ebay.de/itm/Opel-Rekord-E2-Caravan-4-0l-24V-Irmscher-C40SE-zum-Ausschlachten-/201698412920?nav=SEARCH
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OK. These are a few bits. But hardly any complete conversion kit. Looks like a lot to chase for 68bhp extra. Not to mention the prices. :(
And I would still be interested in reading your reasoning as to why the GSi is twice the car the Omega is. ;)
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OK. These are a few bits. But hardly any complete conversion kit. Looks like a lot to chase for 68bhp extra. Not to mention the prices. :(
And I would still be interested in reading your reasoning as to why the GSi is twice the car the Omega is. ;)
If I have to spell it out...
Those parts are merely examples of performance upgrades for the C30E lumps... The Omega A is lighter... The engine has proper tuning potential unlike the V6 which would melt at the thought of forced induction...
And if you click the last link, your car search is over ::)
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Put another way, that's 68bhp more than you'll get from an X30/Z32 lump in a car that is lighter ::)
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I've always had a soft spot for the last of the Carltons, obviously in 24v form. And the Senators/Omega-A for that matter.
But I wouldn't buy one now.
They are a lot older, and produced at a time when all Vx/Opel cars rusted before your eyes. A standard 3.0 24v Senator is not quite as quick as an equivalent 3.0l Omega, and the Omega has more predictable handling without the big boat anchor up front.
Electrical reliability, the Omega's electronic systems are virtually bomb proof (bar post 98 V6 ABS units, and pre 98 MIDs) and diagnosable. The Carlton/Senator do have fail amounts of electrical gremlins.
But then I wouldn't buy a PFL or the achievement topping MFL either now, due to age and likely corrosion issues. I'd only ever buy a late Elite that was in good condition on body and chassis. And TBH, then only if it was cheap.
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OK. These are a few bits. But hardly any complete conversion kit. Looks like a lot to chase for 68bhp extra. Not to mention the prices. :(
And I would still be interested in reading your reasoning as to why the GSi is twice the car the Omega is. ;)
If I have to spell it out...
Those parts are merely examples of performance upgrades for the C30E lumps... The Omega A is lighter... The engine has proper tuning potential unlike the V6 which would melt at the thought of forced induction...
And if you click the last link, your car search is over ::)
You don't need to spell that out. :)
We are on the same page about that. :y
I just don't see how that makes a Carlton GSi twice the car the Omega will be.
Even if it was twice as fast, in a straight line, it wouldn't necessarily be twice the car. A car is so much more than just speed. ;)
But the GSi is barely faster than the MV6. It reaches 60mp/h in 7.6 secs vs 8.0 with the MV6 but has pretty much the same top speed.
This is of course in stock form. Sure, if tuned with the Irmscher 4.0 it gets you an extra 10mp/h in top speed. At least the Irmscher built 4.0 car was 10mp/h faster than the standard GSi. This is not a whole lot. Specially when you consider how much witch hunting you would have to do to find all the needed parts for the 4.0 conversion. It's not like you can just walk in a store and buy. ;)
And like I said, a car is so much more than just speed. There are so many slower cars I would rather drive than faster ones because they are more fun or are better cars in a whole.
It may take years till you can find all the parts to complete the engine. And at over a thousand quid for a crankshaft, not worth it in my opinion.
About the old Rekord Estate ending my car search, I would need to get my head around driving an old 1993 Carlton as a daily. I would not want to drive an early 80's Opel around, Irmscher or not. So that is not for me. ;)
If motor size and bhp was all I was looking for I would just go the old American V8 muscle car path. :P
I need a car which is also practical. Not only a weekend car to toy around. ;)
Put another way, that's 68bhp more than you'll get from an X30/Z32 lump in a car that is lighter ::)
Sure. But it's lighter for a reason. It's lacking every safety feature on the book. I think the only modern safety feature it has is ABS. Chassis stiffness is also worse than the Omega. Probably part of the reason it is lighter. It is also much more prone to rust. Old tech. Most likely harder to find parts than for the Omega etc. That is all even before starting to discuss things like handling, which matters more than just speed. Or before analyzing if the Carlton is as reliable as the Omega, address electrical problems and other things older cars are worse at.
So I'm still not seeing twice the car there. Sorry. This is the part I would need you to spell out for me. ;)
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I've always had a soft spot for the last of the Carltons, obviously in 24v form. And the Senators/Omega-A for that matter.
But I wouldn't buy one now.
They are a lot older, and produced at a time when all Vx/Opel cars rusted before your eyes. A standard 3.0 24v Senator is not quite as quick as an equivalent 3.0l Omega, and the Omega has more predictable handling without the big boat anchor up front.
Electrical reliability, the Omega's electronic systems are virtually bomb proof (bar post 98 V6 ABS units, and pre 98 MIDs) and diagnosable. The Carlton/Senator do have fail amounts of electrical gremlins.
But then I wouldn't buy a PFL or the achievement topping MFL either now, due to age and likely corrosion issues. I'd only ever buy a late Elite that was in good condition on body and chassis. And TBH, then only if it was cheap.
Seeing you talk like that it makes it sound like you don't think a whole lot of the Omega. :(
But you do have one right?
I also always had a soft spot for the Carlton. The Lotus Carlton is still one of my favorite saloons to this day. But I'm with you there. I would be concerned in driving one everyday as a daily driver. Reliability and specially rust.
The Senator is quite a bit heavier than the Carlton right? Makes sense it wouldn't be as quick as a MV6. The Carlton GSi just about manages to beat the FL 3.0 MV6 manual, which is still impressive considering how old it is.
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In a word... Soul ;)
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Seeing you talk like that it makes it sound like you don't think a whole lot of the Omega. :(
But you do have one right?
I have 2:
1998 3.0l auto MFL MV6, 231k miles
and
2003 3.2l auto FL Elite with chavved up Irmscher styling stuff on it, 116k miles
Both LPG converted.
The MV6 is getting very tired now, particularly body/chassis corrosion. Internally, looks in good condition, although I've scratched the leather seat bolster on drivers side with jean studs, zips and everything else.
I paid £3199 for it in 2003, so have had it 13yrs in about 3 weeks time :o
I have put a fair amount of time and effort into looking for a replacement for it this year, and thought a £10k budget for something 6 or 7yrs old and sub 100k miles would be more than healthy enough...
...how wrong could I be. *ANYTHING* out there for that budget/age/mileage is a considerable compromise on what I already have.
So, I may not really be the biggest fan of a rather non-descript, easily missed, big Vauxhall, but you do have to put down a lot of money to get anything anywhere near as capable/convenient/quick/cheap-to-run/comfortable
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In a word... Soul ;)
A semi classic car doesn't make a very good daily driver. Ever.
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So, I may not really be the biggest fan of a rather non-descript, easily missed, big Vauxhall, but you do have to put down a lot of money to get anything anywhere near as capable/convenient/quick/cheap-to-run/comfortable
I agree 100%. This is why I decided to buy an Omega actually. Anything else I looked at, you know, 4 doors, saloon, luxurious and RWD cost a lot more. Then I compared to the Omega and I'm thinking, really, this is all I get extra, basically a name badge and...well, nothing else? ;D
Like you say, unless you put down a whole lot more money, like a boat load and get something a new W212 based AMG it won't really beat the Omega hands down for the extra money. So I don't see much point. :)
As for being nondescript and easily missed, I personally find the PFL Steinmetz Kompressor quite exotic and good looking. Trick is to find a real one which is not just a car with a replica body kit and no Steinmetz engine. ;D Also, all the replicas out there look quite bad. Just like all the fake M3s. ;D
As for big Vauxhall, it's the right size for me. To be honest compared to today's heavy fat cars it's already on the smaller side. I'm pretty sure a new BMW 3 is not much smaller if at all. The current 5 series is a boat compared to the Omega. ;)
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In a word... Soul ;)
A semi classic car doesn't make a very good daily driver. Ever.
:y
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In a word... Soul ;)
This is the only reason I thought could be. Because technically it is not superior and will never be. ;)
But it's not even an Irmscher. It's a GSi 3000. They are run of the mill wide produced models. Irmscher, Mantzel and of course the Lotus definitely have soul and pedigree in spades. The Gsi not so much. Well, not enough to be worth the sacrifice in comfort, safety, practicality and reliability anyway. It's not the Lotus ;)
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Before you go splashing your money on anything C30SE related price up some timing chain guides, these are NLS at Vauxhall/Opel, unless the boys over in ABS have done a group buy and funded a low volume manufacture they will be like the proverbial rocking horse poo.
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I see. But the 12v version is fine then?
By the way, a little update. I have now driven a 2.5 FL and also the prior mentioned GSi.
I have to say I enjoyed the GSi way way more. :o
The 2.5 FL drove like what I would call a normal car. But the GSi was just special somehow. But it is a 24v.
That's great. This is all I needed. One more factor to mud the waters. It wasn't complicated enough to choose between the PFL exterior and the FL interior and upgrades. ;D
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Told you ::) ;D
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The 12v is a bit more robust than the 24v but being older I suspect that the timing chain guides would still be NLS.
If you do go down the Carlton route try and find one that has had the timing chains and guides done on it, though they are at 100k intervals and if you`re not using it as a daily driver you`re unlikely to need them doing again.
Some of the guides have been known to break up under the 100k interval though so it`s something to factor in.
The other thing is that the rear diff mounts are unavailable from anywhere, the last stocks of Boge mounts went over five years ago and there aren`t many good examples around, Keith from ABS on here is the guy to speak to if you`re seriously interested in getting a Carlton GSi, he can point you in the right direction for parts and I would also advise you to join the ABS club.
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Before you go splashing your money on anything C30SE related price up some timing chain guides, these are NLS at Vauxhall/Opel, unless the boys over in ABS have done a group buy and funded a low volume manufacture they will be like the proverbial rocking horse poo.
Is this the time chain guide part you are referring to:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHAIN-GUIDE-straight-C30SE-3-0-24v-90352572-90-352-572-90352572-NEW-/361563039577?hash=item542ed62759:g:sj0AAOSwmc1XPNgb
If so I had no difficulty in finding it. I found it from several sources and also found a used one for £70. :)
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Before you go splashing your money on anything C30SE related price up some timing chain guides, these are NLS at Vauxhall/Opel, unless the boys over in ABS have done a group buy and funded a low volume manufacture they will be like the proverbial rocking horse poo.
Is this the time chain guide part you are referring to:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHAIN-GUIDE-straight-C30SE-3-0-24v-90352572-90-352-572-90352572-NEW-/361563039577?hash=item542ed62759:g:sj0AAOSwmc1XPNgb
If so I had no difficulty in finding it. I found it from several sources and also found a used one for £70. :)
Thats one of them, there are two but I wouldn`t use a second hand one.
I`m not saying you can`t get one, there will always be someone that has a new one unused or surplus to requirements, just that there are none in any Vauxhall/Opel dealers. It is unlikely that GM will sanction another production run and there was talk on the ABS forum about trying to source the appropriate material and get some machined but until that happens you`re stuck with sourcing parts form other people, some will sell at a reasonable price some won`t.
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Before you go splashing your money on anything C30SE related price up some timing chain guides, these are NLS at Vauxhall/Opel, unless the boys over in ABS have done a group buy and funded a low volume manufacture they will be like the proverbial rocking horse poo.
Is this the time chain guide part you are referring to:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHAIN-GUIDE-straight-C30SE-3-0-24v-90352572-90-352-572-90352572-NEW-/361563039577?hash=item542ed62759:g:sj0AAOSwmc1XPNgb
If so I had no difficulty in finding it. I found it from several sources and also found a used one for £70. :)
Thats one of them, there are two but I wouldn`t use a second hand one.
I`m not saying you can`t get one, there will always be someone that has a new one unused or surplus to requirements, just that there are none in any Vauxhall/Opel dealers. It is unlikely that GM will sanction another production run and there was talk on the ABS forum about trying to source the appropriate material and get some machined but until that happens you`re stuck with sourcing parts form other people, some will sell at a reasonable price some won`t.
I don't think £175 is too bad. And I found several new ones for around that price. Considering they won't go bad too often and you will probably go through probably 2 of them through the car's life unless you are very unlucky, I think £175 is not even bad. It's basically a classic car now. Is the timing chain guide the most difficult part to find in your opinion?
And do you mean you need 2 timing chain guides per engine?
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By the way, I just noticed the FL Vauxhall Omega has two different front bumpers?
(http://images.parkers.bauercdn.com/pagefiles/193437/cut-out/600x400/vauxhall_1994_omega_saloon.jpg)
(https://www.netcarshow.com/Vauxhall-Omega-2001-800-01.jpg)
Is this due to different years or different trims?
Thanks.
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Top pic is standard...
Lower pic is MV6/Sport and was made specifically for Vauxhall by Provide :y
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Top pic is standard...
Lower pic is MV6/Sport and was made specifically for Vauxhall by Provide :y
Wasn`t Prodrive?
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Before you go splashing your money on anything C30SE related price up some timing chain guides, these are NLS at Vauxhall/Opel, unless the boys over in ABS have done a group buy and funded a low volume manufacture they will be like the proverbial rocking horse poo.
Is this the time chain guide part you are referring to:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHAIN-GUIDE-straight-C30SE-3-0-24v-90352572-90-352-572-90352572-NEW-/361563039577?hash=item542ed62759:g:sj0AAOSwmc1XPNgb
If so I had no difficulty in finding it. I found it from several sources and also found a used one for £70. :)
Thats one of them, there are two but I wouldn`t use a second hand one.
I`m not saying you can`t get one, there will always be someone that has a new one unused or surplus to requirements, just that there are none in any Vauxhall/Opel dealers. It is unlikely that GM will sanction another production run and there was talk on the ABS forum about trying to source the appropriate material and get some machined but until that happens you`re stuck with sourcing parts form other people, some will sell at a reasonable price some won`t.
I don't think £175 is too bad. And I found several new ones for around that price. Considering they won't go bad too often and you will probably go through probably 2 of them through the car's life unless you are very unlucky, I think £175 is not even bad. It's basically a classic car now. Is the timing chain guide the most difficult part to find in your opinion?
And do you mean you need 2 timing chain guides per engine?
There`s actually three guides, two for the chain that runs from the crankshaft sprocket to the exhaust cam and then the top tensioner/guide for the chain that runs from the exhaust to the inlet cam but hat one is readily available to ABS club members.
If i were looking to buy one now I`d be looking for a car that had already had it done with documented evidence because to do it right it needs the chains, tensioners, guides, all sprockets and sprocket bolts changing, IIRC it was around £500 for the parts at list price then before greedy people started trying to flog them on ebay att over inflated prices, it`s going back a few years now but only the timing chain tensioner wasn`t NLS out of that little list and it had been known for the guides to break up with age, as most of the cars aren`t daily drivers anymore they`re going to take a few years to do 100k.
Good diff mounts will be hard to find but it shouldn`t be too difficult to refurb one using polyurethane in the same way Doctor Gollum has done with the Omega ones
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Top pic is standard...
Lower pic is MV6/Sport and was made specifically for Vauxhall by Provide :y
Wasn`t Prodrive?
Yes, Prodrive in Banburyshire.
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Top pic is standard...
Lower pic is MV6/Sport and was made specifically for Vauxhall by Provide :y
So it's basically an "aftermarket"? That explains why I have never seen it on any Opels.
By the way, I missed your earlier reply:
Told you ::) ;D
You know, I knew you were going to say that. :)
And I even predicted the eyeroll too. ;D
The GSi was definitely more fan. Not sure compared to a MV6 3.0 manual. I haven't be able to drive one yet. But compared to the 2.5 diesel, definitely.
I would still not say the GSi is twice the car the Omega is though. The Omega is way, way more practical I would say. So depends on what you want. I myself, as much as I like the GSi am not sure if I would like to drive my child around in one. The Omega has airbags, side airbags, reinforced doors and other safety features the Carlton has never had.
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Before you go splashing your money on anything C30SE related price up some timing chain guides, these are NLS at Vauxhall/Opel, unless the boys over in ABS have done a group buy and funded a low volume manufacture they will be like the proverbial rocking horse poo.
Is this the time chain guide part you are referring to:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHAIN-GUIDE-straight-C30SE-3-0-24v-90352572-90-352-572-90352572-NEW-/361563039577?hash=item542ed62759:g:sj0AAOSwmc1XPNgb
If so I had no difficulty in finding it. I found it from several sources and also found a used one for £70. :)
Thats one of them, there are two but I wouldn`t use a second hand one.
I`m not saying you can`t get one, there will always be someone that has a new one unused or surplus to requirements, just that there are none in any Vauxhall/Opel dealers. It is unlikely that GM will sanction another production run and there was talk on the ABS forum about trying to source the appropriate material and get some machined but until that happens you`re stuck with sourcing parts form other people, some will sell at a reasonable price some won`t.
I don't think £175 is too bad. And I found several new ones for around that price. Considering they won't go bad too often and you will probably go through probably 2 of them through the car's life unless you are very unlucky, I think £175 is not even bad. It's basically a classic car now. Is the timing chain guide the most difficult part to find in your opinion?
And do you mean you need 2 timing chain guides per engine?
There`s actually three guides, two for the chain that runs from the crankshaft sprocket to the exhaust cam and then the top tensioner/guide for the chain that runs from the exhaust to the inlet cam but hat one is readily available to ABS club members.
If i were looking to buy one now I`d be looking for a car that had already had it done with documented evidence because to do it right it needs the chains, tensioners, guides, all sprockets and sprocket bolts changing, IIRC it was around £500 for the parts at list price then before greedy people started trying to flog them on ebay att over inflated prices, it`s going back a few years now but only the timing chain tensioner wasn`t NLS out of that little list and it had been known for the guides to break up with age, as most of the cars aren`t daily drivers anymore they`re going to take a few years to do 100k.
Good diff mounts will be hard to find but it shouldn`t be too difficult to refurb one using polyurethane in the same way Doctor Gollum has done with the Omega ones
Yes, I guess at this point owning a Carlton is like owning any other classic car. Parts are more rare.
But for the Omega, parts are still widely available right? Including from Opel/Vauxhall?
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So it's basically an "aftermarket"? That explains why I have never seen it on any Opels.
No, not aftermarket like, say, Irmscher. That bumper is factory fitted in Germany at build time to Vauxhall badged MV6 and Sport models.
Not sure if it ever made it (from factory) to Opel badged models.
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Top pic is standard...
Lower pic is MV6/Sport and was made specifically for Vauxhall by Provide :y
Wasn`t Prodrive?
Them too... ;D
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So it's basically an "aftermarket"? That explains why I have never seen it on any Opels.
No, not aftermarket like, say, Irmscher. That bumper is factory fitted in Germany at build time to Vauxhall badged MV6 and Sport models.
Not sure if it ever made it (from factory) to Opel badged models.
I have not seen that bumper on Opels so far.
By the way, going to look at a Steinmetz tomorrow. :D
It's a PFL. But price, mileage and color is right.
So what do I lose again with a PFL vs a FL car? Meaning the most important features.
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Pockets on the door cards and pointy bits on the headlights. Possibly no side airbags either. But that's about it :y
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So all the other safety bits are there, like TC, ESP, passenger airbag, the door reinforcements etc?
Although losing side airbag is a bad thing. :(
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Can't speak for Euro spec and some of the differences will depend on model year, build date and spec...
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PFL does lose a fair amount on safety. MFL is virtually same for safety as FL, except no active head restraints.
No UK spec Omega had ESP, and only became an option on late FL's. Suspect ESP only fitted to late FLs in Opeland as well
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PFL does lose a fair amount on safety. MFL is virtually same for safety as FL, except no active head restraints.
No UK spec Omega had ESP, and only became an option on late FL's. Suspect ESP only fitted to late FLs in Opeland as well
How can I id a MFL car?
And could you elaborate on the fair amount of safety the PFL cars lose?
Doing some research, I found that from the 1998 model year, all Omegas were fitted with standard side airbags in the front seats. So at least side airbags were available in later PFL cars. in 2002 all six-cylinder models received ESP as standard. So yes, only in very late models. But I was going to miss on it anyway if I want a 3.0 manual FL.
About the active head restraints, my current car doesn't have it either. :)
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Can't speak for Euro spec and some of the differences will depend on model year, build date and spec...
I doubt Euro spec is much different when it comes to the safety features. It would make no sense offering them in the UK and not in Germany and vice-versa. ;)
But then again, who knows...
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There's a couple of early limited editions and base models that didn't have passenger airbags.
Take each car on merit and go from there... Or buy the Omega A you saw ::)
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The problem with the Omega A GSi is the total lack of modern safety features. Remember this is to e a family car too. ;)
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How can I id a MFL car?
From about 5 pages back -
PFL, MFL, FL = PreFaceLift up to 97/98, MiniFaceLift 97/98 to 2000, Facelift 2000 to 2003
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How can I id a MFL car?
From about 5 pages back -
PFL, MFL, FL = PreFaceLift up to 97/98, MiniFaceLift 97/98 to 2000, Facelift 2000 to 2003
Yes, I've seen it. ;)
But this is not very precise. 97/98 is a big range. I was wondering if there is anything to look for in the cars which would identify a MFL. :)
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Front side airbags, pyro belt tighter, ABS Bosch 5.3 ABS (5.3 TC for the sixpacs), front disc brake 296mm for the 4 zylinder models.
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Front side airbags, pyro belt tighter, ABS Bosch 5.3 ABS (5.3 TC for the sixpacs), front disc brake 296mm for the 4 zylinder models.
Thanks.
By front side airbags, you only mean side airbags right? I think no Omega ever came with side airbags in the back seats.
Or by front side airbgs you mean passenger airbag? Because that the Omega B has had since the beginning.
The disc brake size might be difficult to check when buying a car. Same thing with the type of ABS?
Are the pyro tensioners easy to spot?
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Front side airbags, pyro belt tighter, ABS Bosch 5.3 ABS (5.3 TC for the sixpacs), front disc brake 296mm for the 4 zylinder models.
Thanks.
By front side airbags, you only mean side airbags right? I think no Omega ever came with side airbags in the back seats.
Or by front side airbgs you mean passenger airbag? Because that the Omega B has had since the beginning.
The disc brake size might be difficult to check when buying a car. Same thing with the type of ABS?
Are the pyro tensioners easy to spot?
Presume nothing. As I said earlier, not every earlier model had this as standard.
Buy a facelift car if you want maximum protection... better still, buy a newer car.
But it does seem we are going round in circles ::) If you insist on having your cake and eating it, buy a 2003 Omega and cosmetically tweak it to suit...
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The different front styles of the car is a bit of a give away between all three stages.
Or if your really stuck, Head Rests, PFL were hollow, MFL and FL are solid.
Please dont post up a discussion about swapping seats between the models.
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Front side airbags, pyro belt tighter, ABS Bosch 5.3 ABS (5.3 TC for the sixpacs), front disc brake 296mm for the 4 zylinder models.
Thanks.
By front side airbags, you only mean side airbags right? I think no Omega ever came with side airbags in the back seats.
Or by front side airbgs you mean passenger airbag? Because that the Omega B has had since the beginning.
The disc brake size might be difficult to check when buying a car. Same thing with the type of ABS?
Are the pyro tensioners easy to spot?
Presume nothing. As I said earlier, not every earlier model had this as standard.
Buy a facelift car if you want maximum protection... better still, buy a newer car.
But it does seem we are going round in circles ::) If you insist on having your cake and eating it, buy a 2003 Omega and cosmetically tweak it to suit...
I'm not presuming anything. ;)
I got the information from a German Omega website. Driver and passenger airbags were standard in all Omega B models from the beginning. Meaning B1 and B2. At least in Germany.
I don't think we are going in circles yet. We have not really addressed the safety features between the year models in depth. We have talked in depth about engines and external look.
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The different front styles of the car is a bit of a give away between all three stages.
Or if your really stuck, Head Rests, PFL were hollow, MFL and FL are solid.
Please dont post up a discussion about swapping seats between the models.
Nah, I don't much care about the way the seat headrest look to be honest. Hollow or solid is fine. ;)
But what does interest me is the differences in front styles between all three stages you mention. So far I thought there were only two front styles. PFL and FL. So what is the difference between the PFL and MFL fronts? Must be pretty subtle as so far I hadn't noticed it.
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We are going around in circles... if you seriously want the safest Omega B, buy a 2003 model and be happy with it.
If you want safer car, buy something new, which, coincidentally will also be faster and more economical :-X
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The different front styles of the car is a bit of a give away between all three stages.
Or if your really stuck, Head Rests, PFL were hollow, MFL and FL are solid.
Please dont post up a discussion about swapping seats between the models.
Nah, I don't much care about the way the seat headrest look to be honest. Hollow or solid is fine. ;)
But what does interest me is the differences in front styles between all three stages you mention. So far I thought there were only two front styles. PFL and FL. So what is the difference between the PFL and MFL fronts? Must be pretty subtle as so far I hadn't noticed it.
[/quote
Pre facelift have mechanical pretensioners and no side airbags.
Mid facelift have pyrotechnic pretensioners and side airbags.
Facelift have different pyrotechnic pretensioners, side air bags and latterly, active headrests, which are a sprung loaded mechanism within the back rest.
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The different front styles of the car is a bit of a give away between all three stages.
Or if your really stuck, Head Rests, PFL were hollow, MFL and FL are solid.
Please dont post up a discussion about swapping seats between the models.
Nah, I don't much care about the way the seat headrest look to be honest. Hollow or solid is fine. ;)
But what does interest me is the differences in front styles between all three stages you mention. So far I thought there were only two front styles. PFL and FL. So what is the difference between the PFL and MFL fronts? Must be pretty subtle as so far I hadn't noticed it.
[/quote
Pre facelift have mechanical pretensioners and no side airbags.
Mid facelift have pyrotechnic pretensioners and side airbags.
Facelift have different pyrotechnic pretensioners, side air bags and latterly, active headrests, which are a sprung loaded mechanism within the back rest.
Yes, but what about the differences in the front styles between the three which Zirk mentions? I understood he meant difference in the front end, as in externally, and not differences in the front part of the cabin.(?)
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He was referring to the seats ::)
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We are going around in circles... if you seriously want the safest Omega B, buy a 2003 model and be happy with it.
If you want safer car, buy something new, which, coincidentally will also be faster and more economical :-X
I really don't think we are going around in circles. The safety part is a latest development. Just because we approached other factors which may have led to the mention of some safety features as a by product doesn't mean we discussed safety in depth. ;)
If I indeed decide the 2003 model is the only one which will meet my safety needs, I will buy one. I already thought of it. Then I will just buy a manual 2.6 2003 model as I have to have a manual and they no longer made the 3.0 then and 3.2 was auto only.
But so far I don't know if the 2003 model is indeed the only one that meets that. This is what I'm trying to find out here and by reading anything I can online. So I can make an educated decision. But so far I'm not entirely clear about the safety differences between the years, let alone have enough information to proclaim the 2003 model is the only one which would do. :)
And if I wanted to buy a new car I wouldn't be in an Omega forum. :y
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He was referring to the seats ::)
Ok. He might have been. But when you read: "The different front styles of the car is a bit of a give away between all three stages." you can't say it's obvious he is talking about the seats. It reads more like he was talking about the front style. As in the front end style. Otherwise why not write seat style?
So he might have meant seats, but it's definitely not clear enough, specially to warrant an eyeroll.
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He quoted your post, which was about the seats... ::)
Work out exactly what your requirements are, draw up a shortlist of cars which tick your boxes, look at them and buy the least rusty one... which will probably be the newest one. Doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.
Anyways, I am done as you appear to be chasing a unicorn. Good luck in your quest, watch out for goblins and post up a picture of the unicorn when you find it ;)
I'll wager that when you find it, it will be Star Silver...
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He was referring to the seats ::)
Ok. He might have been. But when you read: "The different front styles of the car is a bit of a give away between all three stages." you can't say it's obvious he is talking about the seats. It reads more like he was talking about the front style. As in the front end style. Otherwise why not write seat style?
So he might have meant seats, but it's definitely not clear enough, specially to warrant an eyeroll.
I gave you the Dates of Manufacture between what we would call PFL, MFL, and FL.
You claimed That didn't help you, because of the cross over period in 97/98 between PFL and MFL.
The easist way from the outside between PFL and MFL (and the FL) is to look at the front of the car, and spot the changes in design between all three.
The Head Rest response, these are the things that sit on the top of the seats, give a clear indication between PFL and MFL.
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I'll wager that when you find it, it will be Star Silver...
Yea but, hang on, would that be Star Silver 1, II, III, z147 or z157... :P
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I'll wager that when you find it, it will be Star Silver...
Yea but, hang on, would that be Star Silver 1, II, III, z147 or z157... :P
Depends on the model year... :D
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I'll wager that when you find it, it will be Star Silver...
Yea but, hang on, would that be Star Silver 1, II, III, z147 or z157... :P
Depends on the model year... :D
And how would I be able to tell that then. :)
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He quoted your post, which was about the seats... ::)
He actually did not. :)
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He was referring to the seats ::)
Ok. He might have been. But when you read: "The different front styles of the car is a bit of a give away between all three stages." you can't say it's obvious he is talking about the seats. It reads more like he was talking about the front style. As in the front end style. Otherwise why not write seat style?
So he might have meant seats, but it's definitely not clear enough, specially to warrant an eyeroll.
I gave you the Dates of Manufacture between what we would call PFL, MFL, and FL.
You claimed That didn't help you, because of the cross over period in 97/98 between PFL and MFL.
The easist way from the outside between PFL and MFL (and the FL) is to look at the front of the car, and spot the changes in design between all three.
The Head Rest response, these are the things that sit on the top of the seats, give a clear indication between PFL and MFL.
Your second sentence still reads as if you are talking about differences in the actual front end of the three stages. If you are, I would like to ask what are the differences.
I know what headrests are. ;)
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I'll wager that when you find it, it will be Star Silver...
Yea but, hang on, would that be Star Silver 1, II, III, z147 or z157... :P
Depends on the model year... :D
Did they do them in silver? Black were the fastest ::)
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He was referring to the seats ::)
Ok. He might have been. But when you read: "The different front styles of the car is a bit of a give away between all three stages." you can't say it's obvious he is talking about the seats. It reads more like he was talking about the front style. As in the front end style. Otherwise why not write seat style?
So he might have meant seats, but it's definitely not clear enough, specially to warrant an eyeroll.
I gave you the Dates of Manufacture between what we would call PFL, MFL, and FL.
You claimed That didn't help you, because of the cross over period in 97/98 between PFL and MFL.
The easist way from the outside between PFL and MFL (and the FL) is to look at the front of the car, and spot the changes in design between all three.
The Head Rest response, these are the things that sit on the top of the seats, give a clear indication between PFL and MFL.
Your second sentence still reads as if you are talking about differences in the actual front end of the three stages. If you are, I would like to ask what are the differences.
I know what headrests are. ;)
Yes, which part of 'the front of the car' doesn't make sense.
Ok, a bit harsh maybe, I take it you dont need to know what a facelift looks like, so there are differences between the PFL and MFL in particular where the front grill meet the bumper.
Along with all the other differences that have been expalined in this thread by other members.
Hope that helps. :y and with that, thats me done now. :)
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He was referring to the seats ::)
Ok. He might have been. But when you read: "The different front styles of the car is a bit of a give away between all three stages." you can't say it's obvious he is talking about the seats. It reads more like he was talking about the front style. As in the front end style. Otherwise why not write seat style?
So he might have meant seats, but it's definitely not clear enough, specially to warrant an eyeroll.
I gave you the Dates of Manufacture between what we would call PFL, MFL, and FL.
You claimed That didn't help you, because of the cross over period in 97/98 between PFL and MFL.
The easist way from the outside between PFL and MFL (and the FL) is to look at the front of the car, and spot the changes in design between all three.
The Head Rest response, these are the things that sit on the top of the seats, give a clear indication between PFL and MFL.
Your second sentence still reads as if you are talking about differences in the actual front end of the three stages. If you are, I would like to ask what are the differences.
I know what headrests are. ;)
Yes, which part of 'the front of the car' doesn't make sense.
What are the differences in the front end of the cars between PFL and MFL?
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Read the post above, I edited it, Im off now.
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He was referring to the seats ::)
Ok. He might have been. But when you read: "The different front styles of the car is a bit of a give away between all three stages." you can't say it's obvious he is talking about the seats. It reads more like he was talking about the front style. As in the front end style. Otherwise why not write seat style?
So he might have meant seats, but it's definitely not clear enough, specially to warrant an eyeroll.
I gave you the Dates of Manufacture between what we would call PFL, MFL, and FL.
You claimed That didn't help you, because of the cross over period in 97/98 between PFL and MFL.
The easist way from the outside between PFL and MFL (and the FL) is to look at the front of the car, and spot the changes in design between all three.
The Head Rest response, these are the things that sit on the top of the seats, give a clear indication between PFL and MFL.
Your second sentence still reads as if you are talking about differences in the actual front end of the three stages. If you are, I would like to ask what are the differences.
I know what headrests are. ;)
Yes, which part of 'the front of the car' doesn't make sense.
Ok, a bit harsh maybe, I take it you dont need to know what a facelift looks like, so there are differences between the PFL and MFL in particular where the front grill meet the bumper.
Along with all the other differences that have been expalined in this thread by other members.
Hope that helps. :y and with that, thats me done now. :)
(https://s17.postimg.org/lqfyaorwv/Fronts.jpg)
The difference must be very subtle. Apart from the different coloring of the bottom I don't see any differences. Specially not where the front grill meets the bumper.
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Yes, its subtle, hence why I posted an easy to tell PFL/MFL Head Rest post.
What' does the picture tell you looking at the Head Rests.
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Sure. The head rest deal I understood long ago. Hence why I was able to find the different pictures online. I wanted to understand the differences in the front design, which I still can't see any apart from the bottom chin color. Just trying to educate myself about the cars. That's all. ;)
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, which I still can't see any apart from the bottom chin color. ....
The coloured trim was fitted to the Elites (and presumably Opels equivalent)
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I'll wager that when you find it, it will be Star Silver...
Yea but, hang on, would that be Star Silver 1, II, III, z147 or z157... :P
Depends on the model year... :D
Did they do them in silver? Black were the fastest ::)
Black ones where only ever made for MV6, they had a longer boot line and hence fitted with the Irmscher spoiler rather than the Prodrive, On rhe FL the Black MV6Se only came with the dual exit Exhaust on the Saloons and and a choice of double or twin exit on the Estates, up to 2002, post 2003 they were discontinued but became an parts otion pack on the very late Elites. ;)
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Yes, its subtle, hence why I posted an easy to tell PFL/MFL Head Rest post.
What' does the picture tell you looking at the Head Rests.
Mid Facelift, launched in Q3 '97, '98 model year hence the seemingly vague response ;)
Details will be both inside and out, but obvious front end highlight is the clear headlight lenses. Earlier ones are visibly more traditional ;)
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Of course, you could always read the guides ::)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90452.0
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90440.0
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90488.0
Now go catch me an Unicorn, it's breakfast time and I am peckish :D
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Things like headlights and seats may have gotten changed by owners in the past, so definitively, from VIN:
Last letter of VIN = R, S, T or V - PFL - these have hollow headrests, ribbed headlights and no side airbags
Last letter of VIN = W or X - MFL - these have solid headrests, clear headlights and side airbags
FL's are easy enough to spot by the different cabin.
Primary safety features that came in with MFL include side airbags (fitted across VX and Opel Omega range) and a more advanced, 4 channel, ABS ECU and better traction control on V6 models. FL improved on this with active front head restraints, and a child seat option for disabling front passenger airbag.
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Things like headlights and seats may have gotten changed by owners in the past, so definitively, from VIN:
Last letter of VIN = R, S, T or V - PFL - these have hollow headrests, ribbed headlights and no side airbags
Last letter of VIN = W or X - MFL - these have solid headrests, clear headlights and side airbags
FL's are easy enough to spot by the different cabin.
Primary safety features that came in with MFL include side airbags (fitted across VX and Opel Omega range) and a more advanced, 4 channel, ABS ECU and better traction control on V6 models. FL improved on this with active front head restraints, and a child seat option for disabling front passenger airbag.
Did the MFL cars already come with the better corrosion protection of the FL cars? I read that the PFL cars are barely any better than the Carltons when it comes to rust.
Thanks for the VIN info. That's a very useful tip. :)
Would you know if it applies for the Opel range as well?
Yes, I agree that looking at headlights is useless, which is why I'm not. If you google Omegas, most cars clearly have more modern headlights with clear lenses. I think it's probably the most common mod. So going by headlights is not useful.
But you bring up an interesting point about the seats. It's entirely possible. I just read people suggesting changing seats on another thread here. So probably not a good idea to use the head rests to id the cars either.
The solid way is using the VIN. :y
Thanks for that.
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I think the better corrosion resistance came in FL. At the age of cars you're looking at you could as easily find a 'mint' 1994 car, or a rusty-as-hell 2003 car. It's all down to how it's been looked after/stored. My 'rusty' 1996 PFL has FL doors, and pretty decent back arches/sills, and I've seen far rustier FLs. :)
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Thinking cap on... 'definitive' way of determining if the car you're looking at is a PFL or MFL - has it an adjustable steering column or not? This came in on MFL. Everything else 'costmetic' I can think of could be feasibly changed with relative ease, seats, headlamps, alloys, stereo head units. Interior colours can be helpful, but not conclusive. But the likelihood of someone changing steering columns, although doable, is pretty remote. :y
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I agree. I doubt somebody would go through the trouble of exchanging a steering column just to get an adjustable steering column system.
And if the VIN tip TheBoy suggested also applies to the Opel range, I think these two things give me a good solid way to tell the cars apart. :y
You also have a good point about the corrosion. As better as the FL protection may be, if neglected both PFL and FL would be rusty anyway.
So I have decided what I will go for.
I will strive to find as late a MFL car as I can in 3.0 manual with as low mileage and in as good condition as I can.
I just like the design so much more. It makes no sense to buy an early FL (remember I need a 3.0 manual) to change the looks back to PFL, just so I get pretty much the same features. A 2002-2003 FL would get me meaningful extras such as the ESP. But as far as I can tell, an 2000 FL gets me basically nothing meaningful over the MFL. And I like the PFL cars so much more. Externally and internally.
So I'm going with the MFL. ;)
I think the Opel designers were inspired when they designed the B1 (PFL) as it looks like nothing else. With the B2 FL I think corporate thoughts took over because it looks very much like other Opel products of the time, specially the Astra G.
But the PFL car has a look of it's own and looks great.
BUT! If while searching I come across a late FL 2002-2003 in 2.6 Manual for the right price and in great, great condition, I would go for that. The goal is a MFL. But I will not pass a 2002-2003 FL which has everything right and for a very good price. ;)
I'm willing to sacrifice power and going with the V6 2.6 manual instead of a 3.2 just to get ESP. But it needs to be the right car and the right price.
So this is the plan! :y
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Sounds good, and I agree with you on your points, too. The aesthetics were completely of their 'own' and it was a fine looker in its day, and underrated today. Keep us updated. Be nice to see what's actually available on the European mainland, too. :)
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Sounds good, and I agree with you on your points, too. The aesthetics were completely of their 'own' and it was a fine looker in its day, and underrated today. Keep us updated. Be nice to see what's actually available on the European mainland, too. :)
I think it's a fine looker today too. And in my opinion it was always underrated. But I think we are better discussing this somewhere else. So I started a new thread about the Omega PFL's design. ;)
I think this thread has ran its course. I have now made an educated decision, thanks to the information I got here. I have a lot which I would like to discuss with other Omega fans in the forums. But this is better done elsewhere. This thread has gotten long enough and it's better to to bring it further off topic.
Thanks everybody who contributed to the thread. :y
I invite everybody to join in on the new thread: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=137838.0
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Hi anV6
Buy a welding unit and learn how to use it. This way you will solve most Omega problems!
Rolf
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Hi anV6
Buy a welding unit and learn how to use it. This way you will solve most Omega problems!
Rolf
I already have one and know how to use it. But to be honest I'm not too worried. If I am to go by one of my cars, which is a 15 years old Opel with basically no meaningful rust, I will be fine. I would be a lot more worried if it was a Carlton. ;)