Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Steve B]

looking for feedback from anyone who has ever experienced these faults with a autobox,

surely im not the only one to have this problem ar25 auto box


i need to point out that the fluid was fully replaced within the last 48 hours

when the fluid was taken out iirc there was approx 4.5ltrs when it was refilled i think 6.5ltrs went

in..therefore it was clearly low


the firmware in the box is fully up to date within the last 48 hours

the car is a 2.2cd petrol with 53 on the clock


i need to point out that the 2 faults were there before the atf was change and updates were done.

and it is not the gear selector on the side of box.

there are no fault codes at all i am fully clean (no eml)

and here is the prob.....

(1)going along 20 mph ,foot lightly on throttle..lift it off and then(thud) a kick in the back...(feels like you

have just been hit from behind..IE (slight hit)

(2)going along 20mph foot lightly on throttle....then suddenly car revs like it has just had clutch dipped,
take your foot off gas pedal and all is normal again(but its a auto)

HAS ANYONE EVER HAD ANY OF THESE PROBLEMS......

[Steve B]

.

[The Red Baron]

looking for feedback from anyone who has ever experienced these faults with a autobox,

surely im not the only one to have this problem ar25 auto box


i need to point out that the fluid was fully replaced within the last 48 hours

when the fluid was taken out iirc there was approx 4.5ltrs when it was refilled i think 6.5ltrs went

in..therefore it was clearly low


the firmware in the box is fully up to date within the last 48 hours

the car is a 2.2cd petrol with 53 on the clock


i need to point out that the 2 faults were there before the atf was change and updates were done.

and it is not the gear selector on the side of box.

there are no fault codes at all i am fully clean (no eml)

and here is the prob.....

(1)going along 20 mph ,foot lightly on throttle..lift it off and then(thud) a kick in the back...(feels like you

have just been hit from behind..IE (slight hit)

(2)going along 20mph foot lightly on throttle....then suddenly car revs like it has just had clutch dipped,
take your foot off gas pedal and all is normal again(but its a auto)

HAS ANYONE EVER HAD ANY OF THESE PROBLEMS......

could it be the dreaded thrust washer thats fell into the sump in bits.

[Steve B]

why do you say that red baron

[The Red Baron]

im no auto box expert but im pretty sure that a rather common thing is that the thrust washer fails, giving you the thump, the bits are usually found in the sump area of the box. no doubt others will confirm/deny.

[JamesV6CDX]

We drained the oil using sassanach's method - EG pumping out of the cooler pipe, filling with new, pumping again, until it ran red - to flush it all through, and replace the oil in the TC, Gearbox cooler etc as much as possible.

The box was desperately low on oil - by about 2 litres.

Whilst I agree that the thrust washer can sometimes cause the thud (it didn't on mine, though!) I can't see this cuasing the loss of drive at 20mph when accelerating.

I can only imagine this could be the torque converter  maybe damaged through low fluid?

This box has historically leaked from the prop seal..  which I would imagine would account for why the fluid was so low when we looked at it.

[amba]

I have the exact same problem with mine..Also the AR25...fluid has been replaced by dropping both sumps and renewing filter screen and getting back in around 6 ltrs of Dexrom III.No eveidence of amything was found in either sump.

After fluid change box was smoother but seems to hang in the change between 2-3 more often coming down the box,but does also do it sometimes going from 2nd into 3rd automatically..This can be confirmed by putting box manually into 2nd and then at around 2500rpm,s changing into 3rd manually.It seems to hold 2nd then "thud" from the rear end when 3rd eventually engages.

Have also had the "lost drive effect" where no drive is found then engine revs wildly .This can be restored by lifting of and coasting until enaged again.I have also syringed off a further 2 ltrs of fluid and replaced with new again in the hope that it may have been low but this has had no efect either.

It was suggested that it could be a solenoid possibly the 2/3 which a very kind OOF member has supplied me with a full set from and old box,however as yet due to weather and work commitments I have not had the opportunity to replace but am still undecided as it has only ever registered a "Gearbox Fault" a couple of times and with the extra cost of a further 10ltrs of AFT I am still deciding the best cours of action.

Car has covered 205k and has been maintained to a high standard. ATF has been replaced twice in my 140k ownership and each time Dexron III has been used and no sump contamination or debris has been found.

Will follow this post progress with interest 

[kcl]

What version of software is installed to gearbox ECU?

[Kevin Wood]

Any codes present in the gearbox ECU?

Torque converter is just a couple of turbines in a housing, so very unlikely it has a problem. Sounds like a hydraulic / electrical issue to me. Intermittent electrical connection or failing solenoid perhaps?

[amba]

Firm wear in my box was done by Kevin about 3 years ago shortly after it had a previous fluid and filter change at around 135k.

Problem with mine has been getting progressively worse although it doesn,t do it all the time ,but perhaps I have just got used to driving it to stop the problem with engine /speed changes.

Assume that it is possible to identify if a solenoid is playing up via Tech 2.Have had "Autogearbox Fault " warning appear around 3-4 times over the last year and then goes straight to limp mode so imagine something registered would be stored somewhere.

Box is smooth through gears and has no noises when changing.Have noticed,and this may be complety unrelated but when braking hard from say 30 ish get a noise like..." somebody is holding an old fashion spinning top and slowing it by hand" is the best way I can describe it or like being slowed by something holding it....if that makes sense.

Not sure if Bigtimecube has experienced similar issues with his AR25 as don,t want to appear I am hijacking his original post although our symptoms sound similar.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Just to add, software was updated from 4 to 10 and no fault codes are present. My thoughts were a sticking 2-3 solenoid or failed thrust washer giving reduced oil pressure.

[JamesV6CDX]

Just to add, software was updated from 4 to 10 and no fault codes are present. My thoughts were a sticking 2-3 solenoid or failed thrust washer giving reduced oil pressure.

When we pumped out the oil it was certainly under a lot of pressure - and given the lurch on slowdown at 20mph odd, I am leaning towards the solenoid....

[JamesV6CDX]

I would add though mate, get the MOT done, and anything required for that... worry about the autobox afterwards

[Steve B]

I would add though mate, get the MOT done, and anything required for that... worry about the autobox afterwards

i agree james.....and that is at 2pm today

hate going to mot,s you never no what your gonna get

[JamesV6CDX]

I would add though mate, get the MOT done, and anything required for that... worry about the autobox afterwards

i agree james.....and that is at 2pm today

hate going to mot,s you never no what your gonna get

Keep us updated as to the result mate 

[amba]

What other symptoms would a damaged thrust washer produce ?

I have normal gear changes almost all of the time ,but every so aften it "hangs onto 2nd " then gives a firm jolt when it engages 3rd.Sometimes does the exact same thing going down the gears.

Will a Tech 2 confirm the solenoid is at fault.

[Steve B]

What other symptoms would a damaged thrust washer produce ?

I have normal gear changes almost all of the time ,but every so aften it "hangs onto 2nd " then gives a firm jolt when it engages 3rd.Sometimes does the exact same thing going down the gears.

Will a Tech 2 confirm the solenoid is at fault.

yep that too

[RobG]

If there`s no signs of damaged thrust washer....................sticking 2-3 solenoid

[RobG]

What other symptoms would a damaged thrust washer produce ?

I have normal gear changes almost all of the time ,but every so aften it "hangs onto 2nd " then gives a firm jolt when it engages 3rd.Sometimes does the exact same thing going down the gears.

Will a Tech 2 confirm the solenoid is at fault.

Yep

[amba]

Looks like I need to have a chat with Tech 2 then before I pull it all to bits and get covered in ATF again.

[P_Russell]

Symptoms sound exactly the same as mine, also an AR25 - if I remember correctly (MDTM may remember) tech 2 said torque convertor solenoid and low voltage codes.

I dropped the sumps (no thrust washer bits), removed and cleaned the torque convertor solenoid, refilled with clean fluid and checked & cleaned all electrical connections.  All this made no real difference.

My last thought was an alternator issue as I was getting the pulsing/dimming dash lights

[amba]

Is this solenoid ..2/3 change..accessable from the small sump or the big one ?

That way I might be able to preserve some ATF if I only need to remove the small sump pan.

[RobG]

All info here in my post #5 http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1277492465/0

[amba]

Looks like a bundle of fun ..upside down peering up at the inside of an automatic gearbox...oh well these things must be done.

Not clear from the images but can this 2/3 solenoid be accessed from just removing the smaller sump ?

[JamesV6CDX]

I don't think I've ever seen an AR25 thrust washer fail.... plenty of AR35's though 

[amba]

Pressumably ,James,the failure of a thrust washer would not just effect the shifting between 2nd/3rd gears  which would also seem to be related to the loosing drive if that solenoid wasn,t returning or what ever it does ?

[JamesV6CDX]

Pressumably ,James,the failure of a thrust washer would not just effect the shifting between 2nd/3rd gears  which would also seem to be related to the loosing drive if that solenoid wasn,t returning or what ever it does ?

In my experience, the thrust washer failure usually means a really nasty jolt from 3rd to 4th...

Cube, it may be that there's a bit of crap in the solenoid or something. Now the ATF is nice and fresh, I'd say drive the car for a little bit and see what happens, pending on MOT result. If still not right in a week or so, worth checking the solenoid...

[RobG]

Is this solenoid ..2/3 change..accessable from the small sump or the big one ?

That way I might be able to preserve some ATF if I only need to remove the small sump pan.

The T/C solenoid can be got replaced with the small sump removed.
The 1-2/3-4 and 2-3 solenoids can only be accessed after removing the main sump.

[RobG]

Pressumably ,James,the failure of a thrust washer would not just effect the shifting between 2nd/3rd gears  which would also seem to be related to the loosing drive if that solenoid wasn,t returning or what ever it does ?

Predominantly in 3rd is it?

[amba]

Drive has only been lost on a very few occasions if I remember it was under acceleration so would imagine going up the box from 2nd to 3rd.Engine continued to rev so gas released and fault message appeared.Limp mode came on although drove fine without the benefit of 4th..

The general opinion seems to suggest that the solenoid is at fault causing problems with the 2-3 change more often down shifting..

Just want to be clear on what would be the symptoms if the thrust washer has got damage or has broken up,as I don,t recall seeing any eveidence when I dropped the sump late last year although I didn,t do the last fluid change myself so may have had the evidence "tipped away" on the change before.

[Marks DTM Calib]

I don't think I've ever seen an AR25 thrust washer fail.... plenty of AR35's though 

You wont with the sump pans still on 

I have 

[JamesV6CDX]

I don't think I've ever seen an AR25 thrust washer fail.... plenty of AR35's though 

You wont with the sump pans still on 

I have 

You knew what I meant!! 

I'll rephase.

I've never seen a 4 pot petrol, with a thrust washer failure.

A few V6's though.

Always concluded that perhaps the lawnmower engine isn't quite as powerful as the others and hence doesn't put so much pressure on the box

[JamesV6CDX]

As an aside - I took the sump pans off my MV6, and there was no thrust washer.

When I took the box up to Mr Sassanach and we took it apart - it had still failed - and was all broken up inside the box, so wouldn't have been visible within sumps...

The more I hear and see with these autoboxes, the more I think manual is the way to go

[amba]

What symptoms was your auto box displaying ,James,with the thrust washer bust up ?

[JamesV6CDX]

Mainly thumping into top gear if giving it some beans. (if you were really really gentle up to 50mph, it would be a smooth change, but anything other than light throttle it was a jerk)

Might have been broken up for some time.

My main issue was my revcounter on 6,000rpm and the car barely creeping forward.... 

[amba]

Thanks for extra info.

Mine is displaying none of those symptoms in fact it only ever seems to have an issue around 20-30 mph going down gears especially but very occasionaly, up shifting.

Am now more than convinced its the solenoids between 2nd and 3rd so as I do have a full replacement set here will wait for a dry  day,if they still exist,and drop the sump pans and replace them along with yet another £50,s worth of  ATF .

[JamesV6CDX]

If the ATF is recent and no debris, just re-use it 

[SIR Philbutt]

Had very similar problems with my x reg 2.2 auto. Did the atf/filter etc and eventually found it was the cam sensor (GM one). problem didn't seem to occur from start up, only occurred after engine got warm. Also went away during winter, probably because the front of engine was cooler then ??  .

What I did to get around 2-3 change problem (as it would hesitate then thud - then safe mode) was slip to N then back to drive and this would make it change smoothly. New cam sensor resolved it.

Just thought I would mention as I didn't see anyone else mention

[amba]

James..Think for extra peace of mind I would put new ATF in as its a messy job anyway and even slightly used ATF smells a darn sight worse than new and even that isn,t nice.

Philbutt...all posts have been on a V6 so whilst I am not ruling out the possibility of it being a cam sensor think it is inside the box where the issues with mine are.

[Steve B]

well been for MOT and cannot believe that i have passed. magic .one thing out the way..

anyway to shed some more light on this subject, on way back at yet again around 20mph car revs like i have dipped the clutch.
but it was different this time i got drive back like always soon as i took foot off pedal. but would not let me select sports mode ie;(button on
top of stick) and the spanner through car light came on.
once i turned ignition off then on again the s button worked again
and here are the codes i got

engine section
.......................
P1700 - SVS request via CAN
 (00) - Not present

transmission section
...........................

P0730 - Gear Ratio Incorrect
 (08) - Not present

[amba]

Glad you have another 12 months clean bill of health

Now lets try and fathom out whats going on with these gearboxes 

[buttsy19]

It would seem to be pointing towards the 2/3 shift solenoid.

P0730 wiring fault, shift solenoid or mechanical failure of the box.

[noel]

looking for feedback from anyone who has ever experienced these faults with a autobox,

surely im not the only one to have this problem ar25 auto box


i need to point out that the fluid was fully replaced within the last 48 hours

when the fluid was taken out iirc there was approx 4.5ltrs when it was refilled i think 6.5ltrs went

in..therefore it was clearly low


the firmware in the box is fully up to date within the last 48 hours

the car is a 2.2cd petrol with 53 on the clock


i need to point out that the 2 faults were there before the atf was change and updates were done.

and it is not the gear selector on the side of box.

there are no fault codes at all i am fully clean (no eml)

and here is the prob.....

(1)going along 20 mph ,foot lightly on throttle..lift it off and then(thud) a kick in the back...(feels like you

have just been hit from behind..IE (slight hit)

(2)going along 20mph foot lightly on throttle....then suddenly car revs like it has just had clutch dipped,
take your foot off gas pedal and all is normal again(but its a auto)

HAS ANYONE EVER HAD ANY OF THESE PROBLEMS......

looking for feedback from anyone who has ever experienced these faults with a autobox,

surely im not the only one to have this problem ar25 auto box


i need to point out that the fluid was fully replaced within the last 48 hours

when the fluid was taken out iirc there was approx 4.5ltrs when it was refilled i think 6.5ltrs went

in..therefore it was clearly low


the firmware in the box is fully up to date within the last 48 hours

the car is a 2.2cd petrol with 53 on the clock


i need to point out that the 2 faults were there before the atf was change and updates were done.

and it is not the gear selector on the side of box.

there are no fault codes at all i am fully clean (no eml)

and here is the prob.....

(1)going along 20 mph ,foot lightly on throttle..lift it off and then(thud) a kick in the back...(feels like you

have just been hit from behind..IE (slight hit)

(2)going along 20mph foot lightly on throttle....then suddenly car revs like it has just had clutch dipped,
take your foot off gas pedal and all is normal again(but its a auto)

HAS ANYONE EVER HAD ANY OF THESE PROBLEMS......

unfortunately i have had this problem but i also had a high pitched whistle whilst accelorating,car was diagnosed via tech2 by vauxhall dealer in cornwall and diagnosed it as torque convertor failure.
i decided to replace the auto box in the end as cheapest option,on stripping down the old gearbox i found the remains of the thrust washer and bits of alloy as well in the small sump of autobox so it was'nt the torque convertor that failed but the thrust washer  HTH

[sassanach]

i sure jamesv6cdx had the same high pitched whistle on his tranny and it turned out the the front sprag clutch was mullered.if a tc fails your going nowhere...

[Steve B]

sassanach you have seen this  prob in a previous post i have found 2 years ago
just reading through it at the mo

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=76372.30

[Steve B]

Cube, it may be that there's a bit of crap in the solenoid or something. Now the ATF is nice and fresh, I'd say drive the car for a little bit and see what happens, pending on MOT result. If still not right in a week or so, worth checking the solenoid...

i agree james 

mot sorted

[Steve B]

Just to add, software was updated from 4 to 10 and no fault codes are present. My thoughts were a sticking 2-3 solenoid or failed thrust washer giving reduced oil pressure.

When we pumped out the oil it was certainly under a lot of pressure - and given the lurch on slowdown at 20mph odd, I am leaning towards the solenoid....

and that is what it is.. i monitored gears today...i have timed it where i can thud on q....take foot off when it just changes to 3 from 2.

[JamesV6CDX]

Just to add, software was updated from 4 to 10 and no fault codes are present. My thoughts were a sticking 2-3 solenoid or failed thrust washer giving reduced oil pressure.

When we pumped out the oil it was certainly under a lot of pressure - and given the lurch on slowdown at 20mph odd, I am leaning towards the solenoid....

and that is what it is.. i monitored gears today...i have timed it where i can thud on q....take foot off when it just changes to 3 from 2.

Will drop you a PM a little later

[noel]

I have the exact same problem with mine..Also the AR25...fluid has been replaced by dropping both sumps and renewing filter screen and getting back in around 6 ltrs of Dexrom III.No eveidence of amything was found in either sump.

After fluid change box was smoother but seems to hang in the change between 2-3 more often coming down the box,but does also do it sometimes going from 2nd into 3rd automatically..This can be confirmed by putting box manually into 2nd and then at around 2500rpm,s changing into 3rd manually.It seems to hold 2nd then "thud" from the rear end when 3rd eventually engages.

Have also had the "lost drive effect" where no drive is found then engine revs wildly .This can be restored by lifting of and coasting until enaged again.I have also syringed off a further 2 ltrs of fluid and replaced with new again in the hope that it may have been low but this has had no efect either.

It was suggested that it could be a solenoid possibly the 2/3 which a very kind OOF member has supplied me with a full set from and old box,however as yet due to weather and work commitments I have not had the opportunity to replace but am still undecided as it has only ever registered a "Gearbox Fault" a couple of times and with the extra cost of a further 10ltrs of AFT I am still deciding the best cours of action.

Car has covered 205k and has been maintained to a high standard. ATF has been replaced twice in my 140k ownership and each time Dexron III has been used and no sump contamination or debris has been found.

Will follow this post progress with interest 

that would be the man with posh socks lol

[amba]

Yes ...a very fine pair of socks indeed

Will let you know the outcome whan get them swapped over...currently wrestling with oil cooler plate leakage/new thermstat and drivers side exhaust manifold gasket.

Be in touch

[Steve B]

are these solenoids all identical to each other

[RobG]

are these solenoids all identical to each other

Nope

[Steve B]

2-3 is 2-3 no other works is that what it is rob

[RobG]

2-3 is 2-3 no other works is that what it is rob

Yep. Other gearchange solenoid does 1-2 and 3-4

[Steve B]

ok thanks rob...what r your thoughts on buying second hand solenoid

[RobG]

ok thanks rob...what r your thoughts on buying second hand solenoid

I`d buy new.

[Steve B]

£97..jpat....... with my prob ,is that the path you would take 

[Steve B]

not fair ive put you on the spot       sorry rob.. dont answer ,i will rewerd that post

[Steve B]

yes im dragging this one up again...

was reading codes today on car for other reasons and seen this code in the transmission section

p0757  2-3 shift solenoid b performance

well mr sassanach so kindly sorted me out with replacement solenoids and when my new 3 ton jack arrives im going in the box

[amba]

Had planned doing mine today ,but as kindly being assisted by a fellow OOF,r decided yesterday to postpone as unsure of weather today.

Just my luck it was the first fully dry day for a week or more so a job that could have been done is still pending.

Hopefully the next few weeks should see it sorted and hopefully new solenoids /fluid and filter should cure mine too.

[Elite_L0ver]

Had planned doing mine today ,but as kindly being assisted by a fellow OOF,r decided yesterday to postpone as unsure of weather today.

Just my luck it was the first fully dry day for a week or more so a job that could have been done is still pending.

Hopefully the next few weeks should see it sorted and hopefully new solenoids /fluid and filter should cure mine too.

intresting read intreqed to see the replys

[amba]

Fingers crossed the replacement 2/3 solenoid does the trick...biggest problem is what needs doing to get at it.

Will post results when changed

[Elite_L0ver]

Fingers crossed the replacement 2/3 solenoid does the trick...biggest problem is what needs doing to get at it.

Will post results when changed

Ilet me know the outcome when u changed it and it is in the little sump ain't it 

[amba]

2/3 Solenoid lives inside the larger sump ....picture posted up on earlier reply with red arrow.

[noel]

Fingers crossed the replacement 2/3 solenoid does the trick...biggest problem is what needs doing to get at it.

Will post results when changed

Fingers crossed the replacement 2/3 solenoid does the trick...biggest problem is what needs doing to get at it.

Will post results when changed

having removed all the solonoids before the hardest problem i found was removing the c lock pins that hold them in HTH

[amba]

Hi Noel.

Thought a man who wore such "posh socks " would have found no such problems.

Hope your well

[Steve B]

Fingers crossed the replacement 2/3 solenoid does the trick...biggest problem is what needs doing to get at it.

Will post results when changed

Fingers crossed the replacement 2/3 solenoid does the trick...biggest problem is what needs doing to get at it.

Will post results when changed

having removed all the solonoids before the hardest problem i found was removing the c lock pins that hold them in HTH   so they are not just a push fit

[noel]

Fingers crossed the replacement 2/3 solenoid does the trick...biggest problem is what needs doing to get at it.

Will post results when changed

Fingers crossed the replacement 2/3 solenoid does the trick...biggest problem is what needs doing to get at it.

Will post results when changed

having removed all the solonoids before the hardest problem i found was removing the c lock pins that hold them in HTH   so they are not just a push fit

not by the way i had to pull them out, i used mole grips to extract them twisting them left to right slowly HTH

[noel]

  so they are not just a push fit

pm sent 

[noel]

Hi Noel.

Thought a man who wore such "posh socks " would have found no such problems.

Hope your well

alls well martin ive still got the posh socks, you still got the posh box lol

[amba]

I couldn,t afford "posh socks " like those...especially driving and maintaining an Omega  so will just keep the box ...and dream 

[Steve B]

What other symptoms would a damaged thrust washer produce ?

I have normal gear changes almost all of the time ,but every so aften it "hangs onto 2nd " then gives a firm jolt when it engages 3rd.Sometimes does the exact same thing going down the gears.

Will a Tech 2 confirm the solenoid is at fault.

Yep

[Steve B]

no