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[Idris]

I bought a Y reg Omega estate a year ago When I took it back for a service recently, just within the Network Q 1 year warranty I complained that the pedal travel had become worse and that I was concerned that there was something wrong.

I collected it this evening for the FIFTH time, still being told that there is nothing wrong, that "they are all like that" - despite a new master cylinder having been fitted at the third visit - apparently to humour me despite there being "nothing wrong" and today new rear brake pads (don't ask why, I don't know either!)

After the first rejection of my complaint I happened to have to bleed the brakes of my 1939 Lagonda (a marvellously firm pedal!), involving of course pushing down firmly on the pedal to remove air as the bleed valves were opened in turn.

When I got back in the Vauxhall I did the same - and realised that with very firm pressure, after the initial soggyness was taken up, the pedal continued to move down quite slowly, without any increase of pressure - just like when a bleed valve has not been closed properly and fluid is still leaking out.

I checked the fluid level -  no problem - so if there is a fluid leak, it must be internal not to the outside world. When I took it back they changed the master cylinder - no different.

But in the very few miles I have driven (carefully) between these five visits this symptom has got steadily worse, to the point that if I brake fairly hard to stop at red lights that have changed at the last moment, and keep the same pressure on the pedal while I wait for the green light - by the time the green does light up the pedal is effectively on the floor! That is, the pedal has moved several inches more, without any increase in pedal pressure - until it hits the mechanical limit of travel.

Yet this one mile from the Vauxhall main dealer who, having had the car for two days, insists there is nothing wrong with it! As it happened they had another Omega in for service - and the same "creep" symptom is evident on that - though not as bad as mine.

When I collected the car this time I said, after trying it, "OK, joke's over - which one of you is Jeremy Beadle? Where are the cameras?" - but they seem to be serious!

The best mechanic I know confirmed on the phone what my opinon has been for some time - this fault is potentially dangerous and I dare not use the car until it is fixed. It must surely be due to fluid leaking through a small hole

So a few questions:

Anyone have, or had, an Omega with similar symptoms? If so, how were they fixed?

Is there any pattern of problems of this type (a) with Omegas (b) with Vauxhalls generally?

and in detail:

Is it possible for the fault to be at a wheel cylinder without the leak being to the outside world leading to a drop of fluid level?

I wondered whether clamping of each of the 4 flexible hoses in turn might isolate the problem.

Given that the master cylinder has been changed, could the fault lie in the brake servo? It would seem to me that it could not, unless the brake fluid in the main system also circulates within the servo. (In other words I do not know whether the link between the servo and the main brakes is entirely mechanical, or done through a shared hydraulic system.)

Any recommendations for anyone who might know how to fix this problem? (I have put the dealer on notice that after they have failed 5 times to fix it I reserve the right to get it fixed elsewhere and pass the bill to them.)

Thanks in advance

Idris

irfrancis:onetel.com

[Auto Addict]

Welcome to the forum Idris, I'm no brake expert, but others with more tech. experience should be along shortly to help.

[TheBoy]

As you well know, that is not normal!

Get the service mgr to sit in car with you, and show him - he cannot deny it then, or say thats normal.

I imagine there is a leak somewhere, but no idea where....

[B52]

has the brake fluid been properly changed at service?

[rpont]

Saw it on a Seat in the late 70's and that was a rubber flexihose ballooning.

[Taxi_Driver]

As you well know, that is not normal!

Get the service mgr to sit in car with you, and show him - he cannot deny it then, or say thats normal.

I imagine there is a leak somewhere, but no idea where....

As Tb says that isnt normal.....any chance of taking it to another dealer to show them  :-/

[tunnie]

has the brake fluid been properly changed at service?

I'd be more concerned with air in the system. When working one of my project cars i accidently un-did the wrong nut, which let air into the system. I had to move the car to fix it, it created massive travel in the pedal, almost reaching the floor.

Idris I would flush the brake fluid, there is a guide in the maintaince section. I created the guide its very easy to do, just one or 2 bubbles of air could create your problems.

Where are you located Idris, I would be happy to help over the xmas break  

[Markjay]

Not sure what the problem is Idris, BUT.... Brakes on Omegas are very reliable and give very little grief, apart from the odd 'warped' disks etc. Leaks of all sorts, master cylinder problems, caliper problem etc are quite rare and when occur are usually down to neglect e.g. brake fluid not replaced every 2 years etc. The point I am trying to make is that whatever is wrong with your Omega - and something obviously is - it is NOT typical and NOT common to Omegas.

[Auto Addict]

If you pump the brake pedal a few times does this still happen?

If no there is probably air in the system.

[STMO123]

Good grief! I know braking systems are quite complicated these days, but this should be meat and drink to any competent mechanic.
As a last resort, you could threaten to take your car to a decent independant garage, and bill network Q for any necessary work. Might not work, but that particular problems needs sorting pronto.

[Matchless]

A sinking brake pedal is usually caused by fluid leaking past the master cylinder seals, back into the reservoir.
Air in the system would give a soft pedal on first press which hardens up as the air dissolves into the fluid, only to reform into bubbles over time so soft pedal returns after a few mins of non-use.
Soft or ballooning hoses cause the pedal to feel springy and can lead to excess travel but the pedal will not sink under constant pressure. ( sticking pads or new pads which havnt bedded in can feel the same)

Your master cylinder has been changed so the seals should be OK, has any mention been made of the ABS unit? This could cause similar symptoms if one of its internal valves is not seating properly.

I think I would refer this to Vauxhall rather than the dealer, they may send a technician to look at it and if he agrees that there is something wrong then he should advise the dealer on what to do.

[Big Rod]

I had this on my Staples to Naples banger car.

I replaced everything, and I mean everything, (sometimes twice!!), and spent an absolute fortune on bleeding brake fluid. (pardon the pun!!)

It passed an MOT like that and it drove to Italy over the Alps and back via the Nurburgring and is still in daily service with monthly visits to Knockhill to be royally thrashed around it and the brakes still pull the thing up in a fine fashion.

The last time I drove it, the creep was still there. Whatsmore, my MV6 is the same.

[Martin_1962]

Never had this on any car, except a banger with leaking seals.

Call VAuxhall direct

[Idris]

As you well know, that is not normal!

Get the service mgr to sit in car with you, and show him - he cannot deny it then, or say thats normal.

I imagine there is a leak somewhere, but no idea where....

Thanks - but several different "technicians" and a specialist from Network Q have sat in it and test-driven it, and flatly refuse to accept that there is anything wrong! List time I said "Ok, joke's over, whicj one of you is Jeremy Beadle?" and next letter will say "The last time anyone had this much of a problem trying to get a supplier to accept that there was something wrong, it was over a dead Norwegian Blue parrot!
Idris

[Idris]

Saw it on a Seat in the late 70's and that was a rubber flexihose ballooning.

Can't be that in this case - there are two fundamentally different relationships:

1/ Whatever "give" there is in the system - seals, hoses, linkages act together in effect as a spring, and the brake pedal positon depends on how much force is applied to the pedal to compress the spring - and whatever the force, equilibrium is reached quite quickly.

2/ In this case, once moderate force is applied, the pedal continues to move slowly down without any increase in pressure - until it hits the end stops. That can only be viscous fluid leaking through a small hole - or perhaps air leaking through a very small hole indeed  - latter unlikely.

Idris