Topic: Got a fine :( (Read 5208 times)

JamesV6CDX · « **on:** 10 February 2007, 08:22:00 »

Had a letter from DVLA, saying that because I did not declare a vechicle sorn, I have committed an offense and have to pay a £40 fine, and £18 arrears.

Thing is, I sold the car back in March 2006, a year ago. At time of sale I sent the logbook to DVLA, but they don't seem to have recieved it obviously.

I have replied as instructed in writing, disputing the fine, including copies of the ebay details of when it was sold.

What are my chances? this is so unfair...

Ronald_McBurger · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 February 2007, 08:44:54 »

Lesson 1 of business and law. ALWAYS get proof of posting.

If you are saying that you sold the car BEFORE they say an offence was commited, then just provide proof of the date of sale (ebay listing) and name/address of buyer.

If you are saying that you bought it, sent them a SORN and they didn't receive it, you have a fair chance. Would be much better if you could provide proof of posting.

It has been known I believe, for some less honest people to take a letter to the post office and send it to themselves with a proof of posting certificate stamped by said post office. Then, with a second blank proof of posting, a scanner and a bit of clever work in photoshop, they have produced an authentic look 'original' proof of posting that would confirm sending someone else a letter at a different date.

Not that I woulkd suggest you try that of course, but it wouldn't be that difficult for someone with moderate editing skills at changing dates on post office stamps etc. Of course, one would have to be careful to use the correct post off abreviation of month as they do not use standard ones. ie, May is MY.

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 February 2007, 08:50:53 »

Basically, considerably after I sold it the new owner failed to declare sorn or tax it. But for some reason, I am still the registered keeper, even though I sent the logbook into DVLA at the time of sale.

Hence why the fine has come to me..

Ronald_McBurger · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 February 2007, 09:00:32 »

Oh, that is no problem. As you sold the car, the new owner is responsible for declaring it SORN as long as it was either SORN'd or taxed when you had it.

Just send a letter to DVLA giving them the date of sale and the new owners name and address. Enclose a copy of the ebay listing if you can, and send it by recorded delivery.

If you cannot remember or find the new owners details, type out an affidavit. Basically a statement which says what happened, sale, log book etc and that at the time of thiss alleged offence you were NOT the keepr or owner. Take that to ANY solicitor and say you just want to swear an affidavit. They will charge you a nominal fee (usually £5 - £10) and stamp the affidavit with their solicitors stamp.

DVLA cannot persue you any further as you did what was required.

In future, ANYONE selling a car take note. Send the V5 off yourself by recorded delivery. AND keep a note of the name and address of the buyer, even if they give you a false one.

You can ring DVLA, but they will always ask you to send them a letter anyway.

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 February 2007, 09:05:29 »

Quote

Oh, that is no problem. As you sold the car, the new owner is responsible for declaring it SORN as long as it was either SORN'd or taxed when you had it.

Just send a letter to DVLA giving them the date of sale and the new owners name and address. Enclose a copy of the ebay listing if you can, and send it by recorded delivery.

I have done exactly that

I have still got copies of the emails etc that eBay sent me with the details and dates of the transaction, and the buyer. It shows his full name and address, and I've got copies of his original eBay invoice.

I will send all of this to DVLA with a letter of explanation that I have already written, and hopefully that will be that. I have said in my letter I would be prepared to swear in court that I informed them of change of ownership in March 06.

Chances of me getting off this fine?!

Markie · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 February 2007, 09:11:47 »

i am going through something similar right now - i dont fancy my chances simply because is the barsteward DVLA

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 February 2007, 09:20:55 »

Quote

i am going through something similar right now - i dont fancy my chances simply because is the barsteward DVLA

Why not? Fight the barstards if you've got genuine reason! I intend to

Markie · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 February 2007, 09:27:48 »

Quote

Quote
i am going through something similar right now - i dont fancy my chances simply because is the barsteward DVLA

Why not? Fight the barstards if you've got genuine reason! I intend to

oh i am

but beurocracy in this coutry does not know common sense...fingers crossed though

Ronald_McBurger · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 February 2007, 09:28:17 »

Quote

Quote
Oh, that is no problem. As you sold the car, the new owner is responsible for declaring it SORN as long as it was either SORN'd or taxed when you had it.

Just send a letter to DVLA giving them the date of sale and the new owners name and address. Enclose a copy of the ebay listing if you can, and send it by recorded delivery.

I have done exactly that

I have still got copies of the emails etc that eBay sent me with the details and dates of the transaction, and the buyer. It shows his full name and address, and I've got copies of his original eBay invoice.

I will send all of this to DVLA with a letter of explanation that I have already written, and hopefully that will be that. I have said in my letter I would be prepared to swear in court that I informed them of change of ownership in March 06.

Chances of me getting off this fine?!

None at all. The fine is for the owner/keeper not taxing the car or SORNing it. You are and were neither the owner or keeper at the time of the offence AND you can prove it.

No case to answer

SEND IT RECORDED DELIVERY!

x25xe · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 February 2007, 12:13:41 »

I always send things to the DVLA recorded delivery. Don't trust the post.

Ken T · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 February 2007, 12:43:42 »

Recorded delivery is not a lot of use. The Post office treat Recorded as normal mail until it gets to the delivery location, and hence a lot gets lost. I sent Recorded 4 items in the last 2 months; the Post Office lost 2. And the DVLA, well..I sent in my license for a change of address. They screwed up the address and sent it to the old house, and my signature on the new card is 1mm high !!. Recorded does show that you sent it, so you can blame the Post Office, however lots of government places say its the sender's responsibility to ensure it gets there, and lost in the post is no excuse.Special delivery is treated better, but they still screw that up as well.

Taxi_Driver · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 February 2007, 12:55:38 »

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Recorded delivery is not a lot of use. The Post office treat Recorded as normal mail until it gets to the delivery location, and hence a lot gets lost. I sent Recorded 4 items in the last 2 months; the Post Office lost 2. And the DVLA, well..I sent in my license for a change of address. They screwed up the address and sent it to the old house, and my signature on the new card is 1mm high !!. Recorded does show that you sent it, so you can blame the Post Office, however lots of government places say its the sender's responsibility to ensure it gets there, and lost in the post is no excuse.Special delivery is treated better, but they still screw that up as well.

And even when the PO dont screw up and loose it, they can shove recorded items thro your letter box without bothering to knock and ask for a sig

That happened two weeks ago to me......

Markie · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 February 2007, 13:10:46 »

Quote

Quote
Recorded delivery is not a lot of use. The Post office treat Recorded as normal mail until it gets to the delivery location, and hence a lot gets lost. I sent Recorded 4 items in the last 2 months; the Post Office lost 2. And the DVLA, well..I sent in my license for a change of address. They screwed up the address and sent it to the old house, and my signature on the new card is 1mm high !!. Recorded does show that you sent it, so you can blame the Post Office, however lots of government places say its the sender's responsibility to ensure it gets there, and lost in the post is no excuse.Special delivery is treated better, but they still screw that up as well.

And even when the PO dont screw up and loose it, they can shove recorded items thro your letter box without bothering to knock and ask for a sig

That happened two weeks ago to me......

i constantly get this !!!! but you cant really complain about a rogue postman - after all he knows where you live and has access to your financial details

sir moanalot · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 February 2007, 14:45:43 »

recently sent two v5s back to dvla, certainly sent them recorded delivery, firstly cant trust the post and secondly dont trust companies and government agencies. i think both want to fine and charge ya for the smallest of reasons/excuses. i always cover my ass -to the point of paranoia sometimes !!!
i should think you will be ok with your proof of selling/sold details.

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #14 on:** 05 March 2007, 19:52:25 »

Quote

Quote
Quote
Oh, that is no problem. As you sold the car, the new owner is responsible for declaring it SORN as long as it was either SORN'd or taxed when you had it.

Just send a letter to DVLA giving them the date of sale and the new owners name and address. Enclose a copy of the ebay listing if you can, and send it by recorded delivery.

I have done exactly that

I have still got copies of the emails etc that eBay sent me with the details and dates of the transaction, and the buyer. It shows his full name and address, and I've got copies of his original eBay invoice.

I will send all of this to DVLA with a letter of explanation that I have already written, and hopefully that will be that. I have said in my letter I would be prepared to swear in court that I informed them of change of ownership in March 06.

Chances of me getting off this fine?!

None at all. The fine is for the owner/keeper not taxing the car or SORNing it. You are and were neither the owner or keeper at the time of the offence AND you can prove it.

No case to answer

SEND IT RECORDED DELIVERY!

DVLA have replied to my letter.... they're saying I'm still responsible for the fine, and because I didn't pay the £40 on time (even though all this time I've been awaiting their reply..).. I must now pay £80

BARSTARDS

Markie · « **Reply #15 on:** 05 March 2007, 19:59:27 »

sounds like DVLA

MaxV6 · « **Reply #16 on:** 05 March 2007, 20:35:31 »

I feel a tyre slashing spree in swansea coming on./

That's 'dangle berries' James.

Dispute it and demand a court hearing.

present all the evidence, and get the court to summon the buyer as a witness.
(and while you're at it, have a word with the buyer about taking THEM to court for your losses as a result of their failure to tax the vehicle or declare it scrapped or SORN'd )

and ask for costs to be awarded against DVLA for their wasting of the courts time.

and make sure you let DVLA know exactly how this is going to go down, and the name of your solicitor.

go see the C.A.B and enquire about legal aid as well, just in case you can get the government to pay up to defend you against itself.

THEN get the press involved.... accuse DVLA, quite rightly, of wasting the tax payer's money and demand the official auditor investigate.

stick to em James, stick it to em real good.

Essex_Andy · « **Reply #17 on:** 05 March 2007, 22:29:30 »

let them take you to court....produce copies of the dated letters..give details of the buyer and job's a good 'un

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #18 on:** 05 March 2007, 22:57:12 »

Quote

let them take you to court....produce copies of the dated letters..give details of the buyer and job's a good 'un

If I loose... I guess I'll be liable for a lot more than 80 quid?

Whilst I'm tempted and would like to go down this route... couldn't it backfire on me big style?

Essex_Andy · « **Reply #19 on:** 05 March 2007, 23:04:43 »

innocent until PROVEN guilty

You have proof and enough to raise reasonable doubt thereby found in your favour and claim loss of wages, travel etc etc

CaptainZok · « **Reply #20 on:** 05 March 2007, 23:07:18 »

Can't you get a free consultation with a solicitor under their green form scheme? They should be able to tell you if its worth fighting or not from a legal perspective.

Danny · « **Reply #21 on:** 05 March 2007, 23:08:26 »

think of the cheapest and least stressful way out i think!

theolodian · « **Reply #22 on:** 05 March 2007, 23:13:23 »

Quote

Quote
let them take you to court....produce copies of the dated letters..give details of the buyer and job's a good 'un

If I loose... I guess I'll be liable for a lot more than 80 quid?

Whilst I'm tempted and would like to go down this route... couldn't it backfire on me big style?

Lawsuits are rarely about the money, they are about the principle. However, principles are the last thing you should be basing lawsuits on - you stand to lose a lot of money that way.

By all means threaten lawsuits, do small claims court, etc. but not worth going further than that no matter what.

Ronald_McBurger · « **Reply #23 on:** 06 March 2007, 08:39:34 »

Hang on James...

This fine is for not taxing or sorn'ing a car you do not own. You did not own it at the time of the offence, thus you are NOT liable for it at all.

Let them take you to court. Produce the ebay sale receipt and the name and address of the buyer. Under no circumstances do you pay someone elses fine.

Have you spoken to the buyer since this started? Send them a letter (recorded delivery) and ask them why they didin't tax or SORN it.

Do NOT pay this fine.

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #24 on:** 06 March 2007, 09:24:04 »

Can they tax it with the car not being in their name.....

Taxi_Driver · « **Reply #25 on:** 06 March 2007, 12:39:47 »

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Can they tax it with the car not being in their name.....

Oh yes.....all you need is the torn off bit....that James should have given them (the rest of the form he sent off) cover note for insurance ....oh and some dollar!

Ive taxed plenty this way

Edit....plus MOT

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #26 on:** 06 March 2007, 12:47:36 »

Taxed my Omega about 10 mins after picking it up using the little stub from the V5 and a post office.

Kevin

Ronald_McBurger · « **Reply #27 on:** 06 March 2007, 14:26:17 »

What did they need the post office for? :-? I know they need part of the V5, the MoT and Insurance, but a whole post office! Jeeez. How many people have a spare one of those!

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #28 on:** 06 March 2007, 16:20:39 »

The post office came in very handy for emptying my wallet and providing said tax disc. As it was raining it also doubled as a shelter for a while.

Fortunately I was spared the expense of supplying my own post office, having found one dumped on Thatcham high street.

Kevin

sir moanalot · « **Reply #29 on:** 06 March 2007, 16:45:36 »

james take it to court and bounce the buggers! we have well over 600 members on the site now, and im sure most will chip in to help you if the tw%ts stiff you in court. i'll start it off with a fiver- after all we are here to help each other!! tone.

MaxV6 · « **Reply #30 on:** 06 March 2007, 16:47:15 »

Quote

james take it to court and bounce the buggers! we have well over 600 members on the site now, and im sure most will chip in to help you if the tw%ts stiff you in court. i'll start it off with a fiver- after all we are here to help each other!! tone.

ditto

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #31 on:** 06 March 2007, 17:24:51 »

You've written to them once and told them the situation. Now ignore them. Organisations these days rely on what is shown on a computer as gospel. IME there's no way you'll be able to talk them round. The computer says you owe money so that's it. You can't speak to anyone who has authority to override the computer so it's a waste of time. As for their intimidating tactics of doubling the fine when you dispute it, it's all designed to make the punter bend over and take it rather than force them to actually do the job they are paid for and investigate it.

I have exactly the same problem with a water company chasing me for a water bill at a house I moved out of 2 1/2 years ago. Every 12 months the "debt" seems to be flagged up and a debt collection company threaten to take me to court for 45 quid (they don't even do their own dirty work). I tried writing nice letters to them, explaining their mistake, asking for a written response and got nothing by way of a reply. So now every time they phone me asking for the money they are told to poke off and refer to my previous correspondence. They threaten me with court, I explain I'd be quite happy to turn up and prove I'm not responsible for the debt and it goes quiet for another 12 months.

Out of interest, did you get a letter from the DVLA after selling the car absolving you of any responsibility for it? I think I did when I sold my last one.

Kevin

sounds2k · « **Reply #32 on:** 06 March 2007, 18:15:14 »

as an aside, I DID get a letter from the DVLA acknowledging the transfer of responsibility each time after I sold my cars, took a few weeks though ...

Ronald_McBurger · « **Reply #33 on:** 06 March 2007, 18:20:16 »

I agree with both the above.

BT are currently taking a non existent company of mine to court for an unpaid bill for broadband (that I don't have) on a business line I do have.

Over the last 9 months I have spoken with them and on every occasion they have assured me that it has been removed and was an error. Last Thursday I had an assurance that I would hear no more and they paid me £50 by way of an aoplogy. Today the solicitors letter, dated 2nd March arrived.

So, I phoned the solicitor and said that I am refusing to pay, so do you worst you fat money grabbing barstewards. See if I care. I'll never pay....

That should get things moving along.

Of course, as the letters are all to a non existent company I suppose I will have to ignore them all in future as a limited company is a person in law. So, when the non existent company fails to turn up in court all hell breaks loose.

Useless, incompetent, moronic, numb-nutted idiots that have absolutely no incling of what they are doing. And that is just the judges!

Taxi_Driver · « **Reply #34 on:** 06 March 2007, 18:54:16 »

Talking of tax....

I taxed one of my vectras yesterday.....it had ran out....not by a few days either

It ran out end of Jan

I should have sorn'd the bloody thing....as it was offroad but i hadnt realised the tax was due on it

No probs i thought.....i'll just ask in the post office to back date to 1st Feb and pay the back tax....nothing wrong there....im going to pay the tax i owe.

However PO wouldnt go back further that 1st of March

and said i would have to call DVLA and offer to pay the month missed....

Now im in two minds here......if i do call them.....will it be 'What you didnt tax your car on time.....naughty naughty.....heres a fine first and right lets have the tax you owe us' or will they just say ' thats ok sir you can pay the month missed'

Now if i dont call them......as i have bought another tax disc.....it may get missed/etc and nothing will happen?? :-/ :-/

Im leaning towards......give em a call at the mo :-/

Elite Pete · « **Reply #35 on:** 06 March 2007, 19:19:27 »

Quote

Talking of tax....

I taxed one of my vectras yesterday.....it had ran out....not by a few days either

It ran out end of Jan I should have sorn'd the bloody thing....as it was offroad but i hadnt realised the tax was due on it

No probs i thought.....i'll just ask in the post office to back date to 1st Feb and pay the back tax....nothing wrong there....im going to pay the tax i owe.

However PO wouldnt go back further that 1st of March and said i would have to call DVLA and offer to pay the month missed....

Now im in two minds here......if i do call them.....will it be 'What you didnt tax your car on time.....naughty naughty.....heres a fine first and right lets have the tax you owe us' or will they just say ' thats ok sir you can pay the month missed'

Now if i dont call them......as i have bought another tax disc.....it may get missed/etc and nothing will happen?? :-/ :-/

Im leaning towards......give em a call at the mo :-/

Difficult one TD its normally the honest ones that get shafted the most

Admin · « **Reply #36 on:** 06 March 2007, 20:22:56 »

James.

If you have proof that you had sold before the alleged offence took place (as you state you have), then why are you worrying?

As others have said already, the people who work there have, in my experience, no ability to communicate between departments (like all of the civil service and 95% of companies in general!) and no interest in "doing the job right", so basically you have to do things that they should do.

Next time you call do the following:

When you finally speak to a human, get their FULL name and the department they work in before you even say anything more.
When you get transferred (entire Government departments are created for this purpose!) do the same again.
Explain in a calm and determined manner the whole situation and that you have absolute proof that the car was sold by you prior to the alleged offence.

If they state it will be sorted, say thank you and you want that in writing in the next 7 days (they work in geological time so you have to expect this).

If they say "sorry, computer says no" then calmly tell then that you now wish to resolve this matter in front of a magistrate and tell them that as part of this process you are requesting copies of ALL documentation held by them about this matter under the freedom of information act. You will need to follow this up in writing, ask them for the FULL address (ie actual department).

They are legally obligated to provide you with this information (although they could charge a small administration fee).

Let us know what they say after that.

jonny2112 · « **Reply #37 on:** 06 March 2007, 20:30:32 »

Quote

Talking of tax....

I taxed one of my vectras yesterday.....it had ran out....not by a few days either

It ran out end of Jan I should have sorn'd the bloody thing....as it was offroad but i hadnt realised the tax was due on it

No probs i thought.....i'll just ask in the post office to back date to 1st Feb and pay the back tax....nothing wrong there....im going to pay the tax i owe.

However PO wouldnt go back further that 1st of March and said i would have to call DVLA and offer to pay the month missed....

Now im in two minds here......if i do call them.....will it be 'What you didnt tax your car on time.....naughty naughty.....heres a fine first and right lets have the tax you owe us' or will they just say ' thats ok sir you can pay the month missed'

Now if i dont call them......as i have bought another tax disc.....it may get missed/etc and nothing will happen?? :-/ :-/

Im leaning towards......give em a call at the mo :-/

My tax was up at the end of November, but I didnt get round to doing it until the start of January. TBH I couldn't really afford it over Christmas, but fully intended to pay asap using the written notification. When I went to the DVLA they wouldn't allow me use the form, stating it was only valid for the month of issue. Fair enough. Also wouldn't allow me to 'back tax' the car, which I thought might have been ok as it was only a month and I still had their form. Instead they made me pay a fine for the missed month and then tax it as normal from the date I attended. Seemed like a lof of faffing about, but really there was no hassle from them and I dont think I came out of it any worse off.

Chopsdad · « **Reply #38 on:** 06 March 2007, 21:14:22 »

Quote

James.

If you have proof that you had sold before the alleged offence took place (as you state you have), then why are you worrying?

As others have said already, the people who work there have, in my experience, no ability to communicate between departments (like all of the civil service and 95% of companies in general!) and no interest in "doing the job right", so basically you have to do things that they should do.

Next time you call do the following:

When you finally speak to a human, get their FULL name and the department they work in before you even say anything more.
When you get transferred (entire Government departments are created for this purpose!) do the same again.
Explain in a calm and determined manner the whole situation and that you have absolute proof that the car was sold by you prior to the alleged offence.

If they state it will be sorted, say thank you and you want that in writing in the next 7 days (they work in geological time so you have to expect this).

If they say "sorry, computer says no" then calmly tell then that you now wish to resolve this matter in front of a magistrate and tell them that as part of this process you are requesting copies of ALL documentation held by them about this matter under the freedom of information act. You will need to follow this up in writing, ask them for the FULL address (ie actual department).

They are legally obligated to provide you with this information (although they could charge a small administration fee).

Let us know what they say after that.

James, I think Dave's advice sums up what most people have said. The only extra I can add is for you to ring your Home Insurance Company for advice. This may sound daft but most include free legal advice and an impartial review in line with the law may prove useful. Also worth asking DVLA how much extra it may cost if it carries on, just in case. :-/

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #39 on:** 06 March 2007, 21:26:48 »

Quote

Also worth asking DVLA how much extra it may cost if it carries on, just in case.

I wouldn't. That implies you're thinking about paying. Stick to the line that it's nothing to do with you, that you owe them nothing and that you'll happily take the evidence along to court to prove it if need be.

Kevin

Chopsdad · « **Reply #40 on:** 06 March 2007, 21:28:06 »

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Quote
Also worth asking DVLA how much extra it may cost if it carries on, just in case.

I wouldn't. That implies you're thinking about paying. Stick to the line that it's nothing to do with you, that you owe them nothing and that you'll happily take the evidence along to court to prove it if need be.

Kevin

No names, no details, just ask for confirmation of the charging tariff

Ronald_McBurger · « **Reply #41 on:** 06 March 2007, 22:58:38 »

Some people might be tempted to send them a turd. Or a plain brown parcel with an old wind up TICKING alarm clock, with the senders name as 'a discgruntled motorist'.

We promise to visit anyone being tempted to do so, at one of her Maj's hotels.

News:

Author Topic: Got a fine :( (Read 5208 times)

Ronald_McBurger

Ronald_McBurger

Ronald_McBurger

Taxi_Driver

Ronald_McBurger

Taxi_Driver

Ronald_McBurger

Ronald_McBurger

Taxi_Driver

Ronald_McBurger