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[Varche]

I see one did a journey of around 230 miles in UK the other day without manual intervention other than charging hook up half way. Mix of roads including motorway. Clearly progress is being made and room for more to come.

The question I would ask is how does an autonomous car deal with those situations that are difficult? One springs to mind. There is a dual and three lane roundabout near us that is really big and busy. The only way on is to expertly judge a way in and sometimes hope for a person not to hit you. I am sure everyone knows of a similar roundabout.  An autonomous car waiting for a safe entry might create a huge tail back. On the plus side a god mix of autonomous cars might slow the racers on such roundabouts.

The other scenario is does it adjust its speed to the prevailing conditions or gaily do just below the legal limit. I am thinking those scenarios where 10 mph is fast on packed snow or thick fog.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Dunno and don't care. I would rather stick my thumbs up my @rse and walk on my elbows, than be carted around in one of those things.
Its all about removing individual freedom.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Don't think they will happen any time soon. However, in a few years time when I'm sat in the corner dribbling into a cardigan with wooden buttons, they may have some appeal.

[aaronjb]

How do they deal? Well, I believe BMW & Porsche have already said that in a situation where it is "driver vs bystander" their cars will choose to protect the driver.. so I imagine they'll drive like the average BMW and plough on out

[Varche]

How do they deal? Well, I believe BMW & Porsche have already said that in a situation where it is "driver vs bystander" their cars will choose to protect the driver.. so I imagine they'll drive like the average BMW and plough on out

You may be spot on. The next car sees a car come out and slows down a bit ( unlike a BMW driver that automatically speeds up.) Good drivers Let One Out.

[Doctor Gollum]

They will all have to be programmed to operate within the laws of the country in which they are operating, so in that regard, ought to be safer as drones than as forty million individuals.

That said, the chances are that the programming will only be as good as the sandal wearing, non driving pot headed vegan that writes them. So all bets are off... 

[Viral_Jim]

Its all about removing individual freedom.

That depends on your perspective. For old people in rural areas, where taxis are hugely expensive, and busses largely non-existant, I imagine an autonomous car could help them keep their personal freedom and stay in their homes much longer.

Having lived in these types of locations growing up, you see plenty of people forced to move when they hang up their car keys.

[Diamond Black Geezer]

Its ultimately legistation and the practicalities, not the technology that will inhibit / hold back autonomy. As above the scenario of 'kill two occupants or three at the bus stop' all need hammering out. Then when EVERY possible scenario has been worked out, deliberated by every single government in the world, who allow/disallow what the OEMs have decided, then the autonomous car will appear on the roads.... except they will get hacked. Hacking an RAF Typhoon aint so easy, not so much because the tech is impossible, but because no terrorist can get their hands on one for a weekend to dismantle and fiddle with...not so with your average car in the car park.

We still don't have 'theft proof' cars, 30+ years after immobilisers/deadlocks and so on, so hack proof, death-proof autonomous cars, well... its a lot further off than many people think. Again, its not the tech, but the implementation thats the killer.


PS thats before we hit something which may be totally unexpected... people may not actually take to the idea as much as people think...Amazon Kindle anyone? Death of the book, forever? Hmmm.... 

[Sir Tigger KC]

I see one did a journey of around 230 miles in UK the other day without manual intervention other than charging hook up half way. Mix of roads including motorway. Clearly progress is being made and room for more to come.

The question I would ask is how does an autonomous car deal with those situations that are difficult? One springs to mind. There is a dual and three lane roundabout near us that is really big and busy. The only way on is to expertly judge a way in and sometimes hope for a person not to hit you. I am sure everyone knows of a similar roundabout. An autonomous car waiting for a safe entry might create a huge tail back. On the plus side a god mix of autonomous cars might slow the racers on such roundabouts.

The other scenario is does it adjust its speed to the prevailing conditions or gaily do just below the legal limit. I am thinking those scenarios where 10 mph is fast on packed snow or thick fog.

Alternatively, they might be so clever that they can judge the gap to the Nth degree and zip out into the traffic much faster and safer than humans can. 

[Bigron]

"zip out into the traffic much faster and safer than humans can" - sorry Sir Tigger, but no; they will be programmed to be risk-averse.

Ron.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Its all about removing individual freedom.

That depends on your perspective. For old people in rural areas, where taxis are hugely expensive, and busses largely non-existant, I imagine an autonomous car could help them keep their personal freedom and stay in their homes much longer.

Having lived in these types of locations growing up, you see plenty of people forced to move when they hang up their car keys.

I very much live in such a location now, and am fast approaching being elderly - well Im now in my 60,s. I will still detest them on principle if I get too old to drive. As a taxpayer, and believer in small state and self reliance, I would still rather see subsidised taxis for such people than see society carry on in the current direction of travel.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Its all about removing individual freedom.

That depends on your perspective. For old people in rural areas, where taxis are hugely expensive, and busses largely non-existant, I imagine an autonomous car could help them keep their personal freedom and stay in their homes much longer.

Having lived in these types of locations growing up, you see plenty of people forced to move when they hang up their car keys.

I very much live in such a location now, and am fast approaching being elderly - well Im now in my 60,s. I will still detest them on principle if I get too old to drive. As a taxpayer, and believer in small state and self reliance, I would still rather see subsidised taxis for such people than see society carry on in the current direction of travel.

Mr Albitz is well to the right of 'nancy boy liberals' such as Vlad the Impaler and Ghenghis Khan.

He tells he would make a 'benign dictator'

[Doctor Gollum]

Its all about removing individual freedom.

That depends on your perspective. For old people in rural areas, where taxis are hugely expensive, and busses largely non-existant, I imagine an autonomous car could help them keep their personal freedom and stay in their homes much longer.

Having lived in these types of locations growing up, you see plenty of people forced to move when they hang up their car keys.

I very much live in such a location now, and am fast approaching being elderly - well Im now in my 60,s. I will still detest them on principle if I get too old to drive. As a taxpayer, and believer in small state and self reliance, I would still rather see subsidised taxis for such people than see society carry on in the current direction of travel.

We have a membership based payg minibus service, also pretty well connected with buses and a mainline railway station. At the very least, anywhere we move to has to be a stones throw from a bus stop or near family.

[Varche]

People rail at any change. I dare say people railed at cars when introduced  saying “ over my dead body , rather go by horse and carriage” dead body is the operative phrase. We stick in the muds remembering the true golden age of motoring( the late 70,s ?) will soon be pushing up daisies.

The youth of today wont care how they get from A to B so long as they can be immersed in their mobile phones.

I am thinking autonomous cars will have sensors and slow down and signal to waiting cars “ come out”.

[Doctor Gollum]

That last point would be completely contrary to the Highway code

[Viral_Jim]

As a taxpayer, and believer in small state and self reliance, I would still rather see subsidised taxis

Surely small state self reliance and subsidized private hire cars don't sit together? AFAIK the only places that offer such things are the lefty liberal Scandinavian countries.

Getting tour hand in your own pocket for your own privately owned self driving car is far more self reliant.

[Varche]

When I say signal I mean over the ether via this 5g.  Something along the lines of “ I see you are waiting to come out. OK I will decrease speed to allow a big enough event window, GO” at thesame time it would advise following vehicles so they didnt all panic brake .  It would work pretty well if there were no bugs in the software!

The Highway code would need  rewriting anyway to suit the bulk of vehicles being autonomous.

[Nick W]

Surely small state self reliance and subsidized private hire cars don't sit together? AFAIK the only places that offer such things are the lefty liberal Scandinavian countries.

Getting tour hand in your own pocket for your own privately owned self driving car is far more self reliant.

owning the car is the cheap, affordable part of 'private' transport. If it was done properly, without the massive state subsidies we currently rely on, you would be charged at cost for every metre you travel. Then we would all be insisting on improvements to local public transport; cheaper taxis and smaller buses on more flexible routes are the most efficient and cost-effective way of doing this.


The current obsession with 'better' transport hides the real problem: travel became so ubiquitous because it was briefly cheap, easy and convenient for almost everybody. Those times are over, we're just too stubborn to admit it.

[TheBoy]

The question I would ask is how does an autonomous car deal with those situations that are difficult?

I assume you are referring to "difficult" as a moral dilemma?  As for current mainstream processors in computers, there is no such thing as "difficult".

The same moral dilemmas that a driver has to deal with in an emergency, knowing they are in a no win situation, has to be dealt with at the design stage.  And there lay problem number 1, not every conceivable scenario could ever be predicted, and the current mobile-ish processing power available wouldn't be able to process it - problem number 2.

Problem number 3 is that no code of even minimal complexity is bug free.

Problem no 4 is that, as cars become connected, even if security is designed in (and traditionally it hasn't been in automotive), Problem No 3 exists, and will be exploited by those wishing to raise the profile of their own beliefs or simply to make large amounts of money.

[TheBoy]

travel became so ubiquitous because it was briefly cheap, easy and convenient for almost everybody. Those times are over, we're just too stubborn to admit it.

Only the world changed at the same time, making travel necessary.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Remember the predictions of 'the future' from days gone by, where everyone lives in identical high rise flats, where everyone wears identical silver boiler suit type garb and gets carted around in autonomous vehicles, some on the ground, some in the air? 

Well I think that that Orwellian type future is closer than we think and they will use the 'climate emergency' to achieve it. 

The wealthy elites will carry on of course, business as usual. 

Which reminds me, I must go out and buy that full fat Range Rover while I still can!   

[Rangie]

Remember the predictions of 'the future' from days gone by, where everyone lives in identical high rise flats, where everyone wears identical silver boiler suit type garb and gets carted around in autonomous vehicles, some on the ground, some in the air? 

Well I think that that Orwellian type future is closer than we think and they will use the 'climate emergency' to achieve it. 

The wealthy elites will carry on of course, business as usual. 

Which reminds me, I must go out and buy that full fat Range Rover while I still can!   

.       
Do it, believe me you won't regret it..😀

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Remember the predictions of 'the future' from days gone by, where everyone lives in identical high rise flats, where everyone wears identical silver boiler suit type garb and gets carted around in autonomous vehicles, some on the ground, some in the air? 

Well I think that that Orwellian type future is closer than we think and they will use the 'climate emergency' to achieve it. 

The wealthy elites will carry on of course, business as usual. 

Which reminds me, I must go out and buy that full fat Range Rover while I still can!   

What is the definition of a 'full fat ' Range Rover.

5.0 Supercharged petrol V8 or stump pulling V8 derv?

Perhaps it is either, or both.

[Rangie]

Remember the predictions of 'the future' from days gone by, where everyone lives in identical high rise flats, where everyone wears identical silver boiler suit type garb and gets carted around in autonomous vehicles, some on the ground, some in the air? 

Well I think that that Orwellian type future is closer than we think and they will use the 'climate emergency' to achieve it. 

The wealthy elites will carry on of course, business as usual. 

Which reminds me, I must go out and buy that full fat Range Rover while I still can!   

What is the definition of a 'full fat ' Range Rover.

5.0 Supercharged petrol V8 or stump pulling V8 derv?

Perhaps it is either, or both.

.   


Purely my opinion I would say that 5.0 supercharged petrol if you can handle the 15mpg, beyond my finances but my 3.6 TDV8 twin turbo is more than adequate for me & can return 30 mpg on a run
I have driven the 5.0 and it is a superb vehicle.

[Doctor Gollum]

Remember the predictions of 'the future' from days gone by, where everyone lives in identical high rise flats, where everyone wears identical silver boiler suit type garb and gets carted around in autonomous vehicles, some on the ground, some in the air? 

Well I think that that Orwellian type future is closer than we think and they will use the 'climate emergency' to achieve it. 

The wealthy elites will carry on of course, business as usual. 

Which reminds me, I must go out and buy that full fat Range Rover while I still can!   

What is the definition of a 'full fat ' Range Rover.

5.0 Supercharged petrol V8 or stump pulling V8 derv?

Perhaps it is either, or both.

Not the Range Rooney Sport

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

As a taxpayer, and believer in small state and self reliance, I would still rather see subsidised taxis

Surely small state self reliance and subsidized private hire cars don't sit together? AFAIK the only places that offer such things are the lefty liberal Scandinavian countries.

Getting tour hand in your own pocket for your own privately owned self driving car is far more self reliant.

Exactly. Although I believe in small state / self reliance, faced with the choice between the two I would rather see taxis for some groups of people subisdised by the state than everyone forced into autonomous vehicles.

[Nick W]

travel became so ubiquitous because it was briefly cheap, easy and convenient for almost everybody. Those times are over, we're just too stubborn to admit it.

Only the world changed at the same time, making travel necessary.

There is certainly some cause and effect, but if cars had remained rich mens toys, we wouldn't have ended up commuting 50, 60, whatever miles to work each in our own cars, which is a mind boggingly stupid thing to do.


We've ended up with the dog leading the owner, not the other way round

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

travel became so ubiquitous because it was briefly cheap, easy and convenient for almost everybody. Those times are over, we're just too stubborn to admit it.

Only the world changed at the same time, making travel necessary.

There is certainly some cause and effect, but if cars had remained rich mens toys, we wouldn't have ended up commuting 50, 60, whatever miles to work each in our own cars, which is a mind boggingly stupid thing to do.


We've ended up with the dog leading the owner, not the other way round

Good point. Before the 'great unwashed' had access to the motor car the journey to work would be no longer than a brisk walk or cycle ride...... or maybe a short bus or tram journey.

The downside of this would mean that you end up marrying the girl next door, or your sister*

* applicable to people living in the north of England and Wales only.

[BazaJT]

At one time Englands economy was largely agriculture based,then came the industrial revolution where factories etc opened up.In order to have a ready work force mining villages and factory towns sprang up and people moved there from the countryside.Those industries largely died out and work centres moved leaving the work force no option but to commute which meant it was more convenient to own a car/motorcycle than to use whatever public transport was available.

[Nick W]

At one time Englands economy was largely agriculture based,then came the industrial revolution where factories etc opened up.In order to have a ready work force mining villages and factory towns sprang up and people moved there from the countryside.Those industries largely died out and work centres moved leaving the work force no option but to commute which meant it was more convenient to own a car/motorcycle than to use whatever public transport was available.

how does that explain living in one town and driving to, and from, another town 50miles away?
Commuting occurs because it became feasible to do it, first with railways and then cars. Stevenson wasn't inspired to design trains because lots of people wanted to live in Ashford and work in London.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Money is the explanation. And the only reason we all go to work whether its around the corner or 100 miles away.

[Doctor Gollum]

I was about to say 'because we can', but the financial incentive carries some weight, especially if Lundun is involved. That said, moving can outweigh the cost of commuting.

[Marks DTM Calib]

When I say signal I mean over the ether via this 5g.  Something along the lines of “ I see you are waiting to come out. OK I will decrease speed to allow a big enough event window, GO” at thesame time it would advise following vehicles so they didnt all panic brake .  It would work pretty well if there were no bugs in the software!

The Highway code would need  rewriting anyway to suit the bulk of vehicles being autonomous.

Its already happening, V2X, 5G ish which is based around comms to other cars and infrastructure, likely to be a requirement in some countries as of 2024.

As for autonomous, its still some way off, proving to be a lot harder then people expected, look for level 3 first (lots of 2 about already)

[Andy B]

....
how does that explain living in one town and driving to, and from, another town 50miles away? ....

Cos factories close as big companies buy similar firms & close down some to save money (& pocket pension funds) .... so workers find similar jobs elsewhere & commute to them (like Tebbit told us to years ago) which is why I now drive 25 miles each way to work rather than the couple of miles I used to do

[ballcock50]

An interesting topic. Personally I welcome the advancement in autonomous vehicles. We already have plenty of inolvement from technology in most modern vehicles. Don't get me wrong I love driving but as the cause of most accidents are the drivers, take them out of the equation. Autonomous cars would stick to the speed limits, use the correct lane around roundabouts assess the stopping distances correctly, be able to accelerate into a gap more accurately, know their width through a gap, will not be distracted by children in the back seat, etc.etc. As for taxi drivers most of them should have their licences revoked. Admittedly software can be hacked but a terrorist could hijack a fuel truck easier.

[Kevin Wood]

An interesting topic. Personally I welcome the advancement in autonomous vehicles. We already have plenty of inolvement from technology in most modern vehicles. Don't get me wrong I love driving but as the cause of most accidents are the drivers, take them out of the equation. Autonomous cars would stick to the speed limits, use the correct lane around roundabouts assess the stopping distances correctly, be able to accelerate into a gap more accurately, know their width through a gap, will not be distracted by children in the back seat, etc.etc. As for taxi drivers most of them should have their licences revoked. Admittedly software can be hacked but a terrorist could hijack a fuel truck easier.

ermm... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/02/19/self-driving-tesla-tricked-speeding-using-terrifying-hack/

Drivers are far from perfect (and getting worse since we've been issuing licences to snowflakes) but I think there's a way to go yet!

[BazaJT]

I wouldn't worry so much about terrorists hacking the system to use them as a weapon more the spotty "yoofs" sitting in the bedrooms hacking them and playing Grand Theft Auto[other games are available] for real.

[Nick W]

Effective, reliable autonomous cars would remove the need for speed limits.

[aaronjb]

Effective, reliable autonomous cars would remove the need for speed limits.

And traffic lights, and any other controls imposed on humans.

They're also going to need to have no windows, or we'll all be having heart attacks at every junction when nobody slows down and everyone passes within inches, e.g. https://youtu.be/UVQ8bGvLkCA?t=56

[Nick W]

Effective, reliable autonomous cars would remove the need for speed limits.

And traffic lights, and any other controls imposed on humans.

They're also going to need to have no windows, or we'll all be having heart attacks at every junction when nobody slows down and everyone passes within inches, e.g. https://youtu.be/UVQ8bGvLkCA?t=56

all of which makes them an All Or Nothing proposition.
I don't expect to live long enough to see it.

[STEMO]

Effective, reliable autonomous cars would remove the need for speed limits.

And traffic lights, and any other controls imposed on humans.

They're also going to need to have no windows, or we'll all be having heart attacks at every junction when nobody slows down and everyone passes within inches, e.g. https://youtu.be/UVQ8bGvLkCA?t=56

all of which makes them an All Or Nothing proposition.
I don't expect to live long enough to see it.

That's right, Nick. We can't have a mix of autonomous and human drivers on the road at the same time because the rules would be different for both.

[aaronjb]

all of which makes them an All Or Nothing proposition.
I don't expect to live long enough to see it.

I absolutely agree with you - both on general principles and as someone whose worked in IT for far longer than I care to remember. Computers are only any good at dealing with other computers, humans in the mix always causes problems.

Of course computers also tend to be programmed by humans. That also causes problems