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[shyboy]

Hi Guys and Gals,
Wisely or not, I'm thinking of trying to upgrade an old PC which I haven't used for 5 years, as a project, and wonder whether this is a sensible proposition. The main purpose would be to drag myself into the 21st. century knowledge-wise, and to provide a second outfit for flight sim. gaming, internet access, word processing etc.
There seems to be plenty of info. and guides on the Internet, which I think I could follow OK, but I would appreciate an opinion from the experts on whether the idea is feasible for a raw beginner with no basic knowledge. Cost considerations would not be critical, and I'd like to be able to upgrade further in the future if my skills improve, and/or I live long enough. 8-)
Opinions would be much appreciated.
Bill.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Much easier to do than it used to be as you no longer need to REALLY understand the details of how bus based devices connect!

Ow the fun of IRQ's, DMA's etc....

[Allenm]

As Mark says, it won't teach you a great deal other than how to slot things together whilst wearing an anti-static wrsit band.  Also, unless you have access to cheap components then it is often cheaper to just buy a new one!  The only real benefit of building your own these days is the ability to create a balanced system, optimised for the use the machine will get.

If you do go for it, then anti-static protection is a must, don't believe those who will tell you they have never used it and never had a problem,  the effects can be more subtle than just breaking it!

[richardirv]

I think building your own PC is a very satisfieing project, I don't do that much myself but have built my own 2 PC's, a Gaming Rig & Media Rig for the LCD, And then the odd one for family and friends etc.
Unless you are really going to read up and follow guides to the letter my suggestion is try to find someone who has done it before and let them show you what to do, which is what I did, once you have done one you should have the confidence to go solo.

If the PC you are thinking of upgrading is 5 years old or more, my advice would be to start from scratch, 5 years is a long time in PC years and if you are thinking of gaming  then I doubt anything you do to it will be good enough for todays games, especially flight sims like FSX.

If money is an issue and If gaming is only a luxury then you could build a nice little machine for well under £300 and then save up and add a daddy graphics card later.

Rich

[TheBoy]

tbh, a 5yrs old PC has no usable parts in it, so cheaper just to go out and buy one.

If you want the satisfaction of building one yourself, thats one thing (but can work out expensive to get the best from it, as some components simply don't work optimally together). It will always be cheaper to go to HP/Dell/whoever for a new one if its a significant upgrade.

[TheBoy]

Much easier to do than it used to be as you no longer need to REALLY understand the details of how bus based devices connect!

Ow the fun of IRQ's, DMA's etc....

Less of an issue on lost cost mobos now due to how they connect up PCI/PCIe now - but the reverse of that is poor documentation on such mobos, so you have to plug a card in to see what irq its wired to.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Much easier to do than it used to be as you no longer need to REALLY understand the details of how bus based devices connect!

Ow the fun of IRQ's, DMA's etc....

Less of an issue on lost cost mobos now due to how they connect up PCI/PCIe now - but the reverse of that is poor documentation on such mobos, so you have to plug a card in to see what irq its wired to.

Which is what I said....reality is the chances are the only card you will plug in will be a graphics one!

Where as of course you used to have an audio card, I/O card, Drive interface card, graphics card......modem....

[richardirv]

tbh, a 5yrs old PC has no usable parts in it, so cheaper just to go out and buy one.

If you want the satisfaction of building one yourself, thats one thing (but can work out expensive to get the best from it, as some components simply don't work optimally together). It will always be cheaper to go to HP/Dell/whoever for a new one if its a significant upgrade.

The only thing I find is that DELL etc seem to use budget/cheap components and I find you can build much higher quality machines for very similar prices. And to get a dell to play games you need an XPS and they ussually don't come cheap. Customised components to suit needs wins all day for me.

[Laz]

Have a good think about what you want to do.  You mention gaming, and that is always the thing that is going to drive what spec you need. As mentioned building your own can be very satisfying, but it can also be very frustrating and time consuming, a hidden risk here is that as soon as your extended family find out you built your own system they immediately think you have become Bill Gates and you become the local 24/7 tec support.
 The price of pre built PC these days its hardly worth the effort. Have a look at some of the stuff Aldi has now and again, they had a rig for £499 a couple of weeks ago that was simply amazing spec, I priced the bits up from E-Buyer and it came to about £450. Although I admit Medion (Aldi tec brand) are not as well supported as Dell etc, Aldi have a no quibble return policy if worst came to worst.

[TheBoy]

Much easier to do than it used to be as you no longer need to REALLY understand the details of how bus based devices connect!

Ow the fun of IRQ's, DMA's etc....

Less of an issue on lost cost mobos now due to how they connect up PCI/PCIe now - but the reverse of that is poor documentation on such mobos, so you have to plug a card in to see what irq its wired to.

Which is what I said....reality is the chances are the only card you will plug in will be a graphics one!

Where as of course you used to have an audio card, I/O card, Drive interface card, graphics card......modem....

Hmmm, looking at my (almost dead) desktop which runs with side off to disperse the smoke that will bellow out any second now...

Forgetting the video card, I see a soundblaster live car, a gigabit nic card (the onboard gigabit has long since blown up), scsi card, and a firewire card.


Actually looking at it, it needs replacing, but its become a battle to see how long I can keep it running for

[TheBoy]

tbh, a 5yrs old PC has no usable parts in it, so cheaper just to go out and buy one.

If you want the satisfaction of building one yourself, thats one thing (but can work out expensive to get the best from it, as some components simply don't work optimally together). It will always be cheaper to go to HP/Dell/whoever for a new one if its a significant upgrade.

The only thing I find is that DELL etc seem to use budget/cheap components and I find you can build much higher quality machines for very similar prices. And to get a dell to play games you need an XPS and they ussually don't come cheap. Customised components to suit needs wins all day for me.

Generally not budget components, though often no vga card.

Dell in particular tend to use decent chipsets, unlike many others, and the chipset is the most important part - anything else can be rectified.

As a consumer (or even as a system integrator), you will never get close to Dell's (or others) pricing for similar spec, certainly at the sub £500 market.  For starters, you will struggle to get a Windows licence for less than £60

[shyboy]

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen.
Although I agree with Richardirv's points about satisfaction etc. I can see that the first requirement is to learn the necessary IT foreign language, and perhaps I would be biting off more than I could chew, bearing in mind that senility may loom large on the horizon.
If there was a very substantial saving I would persevere, but think that perhaps I should confine myself to my known comfort zone and continue to play with Miggies for my kicks.
Laz. Thanks for your advice. I bought a Medion 22" LCD monitor from Aldi recently and it seems perfectly satisfactory. Just hope it has a long life.
Thanks again for all your comments.
Permission to change my mind, Sir?

[TheBoy]

Much easier to do than it used to be as you no longer need to REALLY understand the details of how bus based devices connect!

Ow the fun of IRQ's, DMA's etc....

Less of an issue on lost cost mobos now due to how they connect up PCI/PCIe now - but the reverse of that is poor documentation on such mobos, so you have to plug a card in to see what irq its wired to.

Which is what I said....reality is the chances are the only card you will plug in will be a graphics one!

Where as of course you used to have an audio card, I/O card, Drive interface card, graphics card......modem....

Hmmm, looking at my (almost dead) desktop which runs with side off to disperse the smoke that will bellow out any second now...

Forgetting the video card, I see a soundblaster live car, a gigabit nic card (the onboard gigabit has long since blown up), scsi card, and a firewire card.


Actually looking at it, it needs replacing, but its become a battle to see how long I can keep it running for

And guess who will be having the old OOF server in the new year  

[Martin_1962]

I rebuilt a PC, kept case DVD burner and FDD

New MB
New CPU
2GB RAM
2 x 1TB HDDs
Graphics card
New PSU

£490 roughly

Bought middle market stuff like Samsung drives for quietness, Asus MB and GFX card, Intel Quad core CPU

[TheBoy]

I rebuilt a PC, kept case DVD burner and FDD

New MB
New CPU
2GB RAM
2 x 1TB HDDs
Graphics card
New PSU

£490 roughly

Bought middle market stuff like Samsung drives for quietness, Asus MB and GFX card, Intel Quad core CPU

Never mind, hope it lasts.  When (not if) if fails, you'll find Asus slow and cumbersome to deal with.

As to price, thats not great - I paid £399 + VAT (inc delivery) for the OOF server 18 months ago (I checked this morning to see which version of Vista licence it had).  That is probably similar spec (when bought) except the pair of disks were smaller.


I rate the 1Tb Spinpoint F1 drives, to the point I have ordered a pair for the OOF server. Quiet, fast (OK, not up to SAS perfromance), good value.

[Martin_1962]

I had modern Asus recommended in quite a few places, and this was a sensible price with enough ports

Spinpoint drives - yes they are quiet and only £75 or so

MB purchasing is the most difficult bit

[Laz]

I rebuilt a PC, kept case DVD burner and FDD

New MB
New CPU
2GB RAM
2 x 1TB HDDs
Graphics card
New PSU

£490 roughly

Bought middle market stuff like Samsung drives for quietness, Asus MB and GFX card, Intel Quad core CPU

Here is the specs for the Aldi one, (now £487 due to VAT)
Intel® Core™2 Quad processor Q8200 (2.33GHz, 4 MB cache, FSB 1333MHz).
4GB DDR2-RAM, Dual Channel Mode.2
1TB Hdd
NVIDIA GeForce® 9600GT (512MB GDDR3 RAM with HDMI and DVI output).
High Speed Wireless LAN 802.11n Draft
DVD/CD Writer
Integrated triple-use TV tuner for analogue TV, DVB-T and DVB-S.6
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium. With new Media Center
Accessories included:
Remote control
Wireless multimedia keyboard
Wireless optical scroll mouse

Linky-
http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/offers/58_7963.htm

[TheBoy]

I had modern Asus recommended in quite a few places, and this was a sensible price with enough ports

Spinpoint drives - yes they are quiet and only £75 or so

MB purchasing is the most difficult bit

Had too many Asus' go wrong.  Suppliers like them due to high feature set, and good margins.  Had a stack of around 8 of them here up til a few months ago, all with similar faults (random BSODs, or simple power done for no reason).  USB ports tend to fail quickly as well ime.

I agree mobo purchasing is the most difficult - I want to knock the MCE up to C2 Quad (HD pushes 3.2G P4 to limit - I'm about 90% CPU on HD playback), but can't find a suitable mobo

[TheBoy]

I rebuilt a PC, kept case DVD burner and FDD

New MB
New CPU
2GB RAM
2 x 1TB HDDs
Graphics card
New PSU

£490 roughly

Bought middle market stuff like Samsung drives for quietness, Asus MB and GFX card, Intel Quad core CPU

Here is the specs for the Aldi one, (now £487 due to VAT)
Intel® Core™2 Quad processor Q8200 (2.33GHz, 4 MB cache, FSB 1333MHz).
4GB DDR2-RAM, Dual Channel Mode.2
1TB Hdd
NVIDIA GeForce® 9600GT (512MB GDDR3 RAM with HDMI and DVI output).
High Speed Wireless LAN 802.11n Draft
DVD/CD Writer
Integrated triple-use TV tuner for analogue TV, DVB-T and DVB-S.6
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium. With new Media Center
Accessories included:
Remote control
Wireless multimedia keyboard
Wireless optical scroll mouse

Linky-
http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/offers/58_7963.htm

Can only really use a little over 3G with 32bit Windows - unless it comes with 64bit Windows, which is unsuitable for home use still.

Its easy to chuck in cheap memory to give the spec the 'big numbers', but doesn't make it a good system.

You've missed the most critical part of spec, what chipset?

[TheBoy]

I rebuilt a PC, kept case DVD burner and FDD

New MB
New CPU
2GB RAM
2 x 1TB HDDs
Graphics card
New PSU

£490 roughly

Bought middle market stuff like Samsung drives for quietness, Asus MB and GFX card, Intel Quad core CPU

Here is the specs for the Aldi one, (now £487 due to VAT)
Intel® Core™2 Quad processor Q8200 (2.33GHz, 4 MB cache, FSB 1333MHz).
4GB DDR2-RAM, Dual Channel Mode.2
1TB Hdd
NVIDIA GeForce® 9600GT (512MB GDDR3 RAM with HDMI and DVI output).
High Speed Wireless LAN 802.11n Draft
DVD/CD Writer
Integrated triple-use TV tuner for analogue TV, DVB-T and DVB-S.6
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium. With new Media Center
Accessories included:
Remote control
Wireless multimedia keyboard
Wireless optical scroll mouse

Linky-
http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/offers/58_7963.htm

Looked all over Aldi and Medion's site, no mention of what chipset it uses.  On that basis alone I would avoid it.

[Laz]

Looked all over Aldi and Medion's site, no mention of what chipset it uses.  On that basis alone I would avoid it.

Aye it took some finding!  Eventually found it on a French site -
Chipset - Intel Bearlake-G33
Its bundled with Vista 64 so that may be an issue. But for the average user, at this price with 3 year warranty, I dunno, looks pretty damn good to me.

[TheBoy]

Looked all over Aldi and Medion's site, no mention of what chipset it uses.  On that basis alone I would avoid it.

Aye it took some finding!  Eventually found it on a French site -
Chipset - Intel Bearlake-G33
Its bundled with Vista 64 so that may be an issue. But for the average user, at this price with 3 year warranty, I dunno, looks pretty damn good to me.

G33 not too bad

3yr warranty is

With Vista, to get the 'Designed for Vista' accreditation, hardware manufactures had to provide 64bit as well as 32bit drivers.  Great in theory, not so hot in practice.  I would recommend most Vista home users stick to 32bit for now.


Its not a bad price, but its not a great price - similar quad cored Dell is £418 (http://www.dmxdimension.com/blogcategory/dell_uk_inspiron_530.html)

[Laz]

You are right of course, I am putting want I would want from a PC
(Media Centre, remote control, 1tb drive, built in Tri-TV Tuner Card, HDMi outputs, optical audio outputs) and not what Shyboy has actually specified- gaming,office and internet access.
 The think the conclusion here is there is plenty of reasonbly priced pre-builts out there, just need to think hard on what you want it for and a budget.

[TheBoy]

You are right of course, I am putting want I would want from a PC
(Media Centre, remote control, 1tb drive, built in Tri-TV Tuner Card, HDMi outputs, optical audio outputs) and not what Shyboy has actually specified- gaming,office and internet access.
 The think the conclusion here is there is plenty of reasonbly priced pre-builts out there, just need to think hard on what you want it for and a budget.

Just be aware, that unless your Vista Media Center has the TV Pack 2008 installed, it can only use 1 'type' of tuner (analogue, dvb-t, dvb-s).

TV Pack is only available to OEMs, and last time I checked, no OEMs were putting it on (TV Pack is also available to Vista Ultimate users, but MS strongly recommend rebuilding)

[Entwood]

One of the hardest, and most important parts, of building your own system is actually making sure you get compatible  "core" bits ....  motherboard/memory/CPU ... if these are incompatible you have major problems.

One way around this is to buy a "bundle".. where the makers have done the work for you, and sometimes even tested the "bundle" before shipping. I have used and recommended this system for several years. Using it many friends have successfully built there own with just a little help from "Entwood help line"

I would strongly recommend Novatech, although others like eBuyer, Dabs etc do bundles as well

http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/bundles.html

It is also worth haveing a read here .... some good info ..

http://www.buildyourown.org.uk/

[Marks DTM Calib]

I to have had a number of issues with Asus motherboards....had a lot of success with Gigabyte ones though

[TheBoy]

I to ahev had a number of issues with Asus motherboards....had a lot of success with Gigabyte ones though

Gigabyte do tend to be more reliable.  Had some weird compatibility issues with them, and they tend to fit crap northbridge/mch fans.

[shyboy]

Thanks for all the info., even though a lot of it is over my head at the moment. This is another reason why I thought of building my own outfit; I hate not being able to understand the ins and outs of something I use every day.
Thanks, Nige, for the links. I'll have a read and see if it sways my decision. Hope you and Chris are both well.
Bill.

[Marks DTM Calib]

I to ahev had a number of issues with Asus motherboards....had a lot of success with Gigabyte ones though

Gigabyte do tend to be more reliable.  Had some weird compatibility issues with them, and they tend to fit crap northbridge/mch fans.

I always ditch the standard cooling setups anyway....to cheap and compromised

[Martin_1962]

2 year warantee though!

I wonder if they have improved their quality?

[TheBoy]

Thanks for all the info., even though a lot of it is over my head at the moment. This is another reason why I thought of building my own outfit; I hate not being able to understand the ins and outs of something I use every day.
Thanks, Nige, for the links. I'll have a read and see if it sways my decision. Hope you and Chris are both well.
Bill.

Not sure if still available, or if been updated, but 'Upgrading and reapiring PCs' by Scott Mueller used to make for decent toilet reading

[shyboy]

Thanks, Jaime. I'll have a go at tracking it down. Sounds just what I need.
Bill.

[dispondent 1]

my two cents worth build your own and think first what you want it for ! oof forum, looking at smutties on internet, gaming, whatever,
then you can build your own specs with the best you can afford,
and if you get a problem you have only one item to deal with and not a complete unit thats been put together just to make the speck sheet look good! i always build my own never had any real problems, its not difficult ( cant be i can do it ) my mobo is getting on a bit so will change that soon with a new case ? 100 quid? use graphics card h/ds sound card ect ect then in a few months update graphics card sound whatever, its not so hard on the wallet  thats the way i would go

[willyboy]

Aldi warranty not always what it seems  you cant upgrade it usually that easily as Towers are usually small m8 had one could hardly fit a new gr/crd in as he wanted to upgrade it then if owt does go wrong you have to remove your newer items & put the old crap back in to return it...
Depending on what you want it to do gaming especially  I really do think buying seperates is better not always cheaper, as pre built models generally (Aldi)  have just a good enough psu just a good enough cooler, gr card is always some model that no gamer as heard of or a cut down vers of a decent one, a cheapo case & mainly an oddball motherboard  & Ram always they tout the 500/600/750gb Sata II hdd  to make it look good IMHO

[STMO123]

Hi Guys and Gals,
Wisely or not, I'm thinking of trying to upgrade an old PC which I haven't used for 5 years, as a project, and wonder whether this is a sensible proposition. The main purpose would be to drag myself into the 21st. century knowledge-wise, and to provide a second outfit for flight sim. gaming, internet access, word processing etc.
There seems to be plenty of info. and guides on the Internet, which I think I could follow OK, but I would appreciate an opinion from the experts on whether the idea is feasible for a raw beginner with no basic knowledge. Cost considerations would not be critical, and I'd like to be able to upgrade further in the future if my skills improve, and/or I live long enough. 8-)
Opinions would be much appreciated.
Bill.

You're fiddling with stuff again Bill.

[MindlessJD]

Much easier to do than it used to be as you no longer need to REALLY understand the details of how bus based devices connect!

Ow the fun of IRQ's, DMA's etc....

Less of an issue on lost cost mobos now due to how they connect up PCI/PCIe now - but the reverse of that is poor documentation on such mobos, so you have to plug a card in to see what irq its wired to.

Which is what I said....reality is the chances are the only card you will plug in will be a graphics one!

Where as of course you used to have an audio card, I/O card, Drive interface card, graphics card......modem....

Hmmm, looking at my (almost dead) desktop which runs with side off to disperse the smoke that will bellow out any second now...

Forgetting the video card, I see a soundblaster live car, a gigabit nic card (the onboard gigabit has long since blown up), scsi card, and a firewire card.


Actually looking at it, it needs replacing, but its become a
battle to see how long I can keep it running for

Hehe. That's what I'm doing with an old machine that I'm using as a file server!