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[Vamps]

I thought it was about giving grip when pulling away......

Electronic stability programme/control (ESP/ESC):
similar to ABS, and often known as traction control, electronic stability
prevents a car from skidding sideways under braking, by sensing which
brakes need to be applied to bring the car back under control.


Scource.....http://www.motabilitycarscheme.co.uk/documents/website/Mot%20Ops/Publications/Choosing%20Your%20Car.pdf

[Hannah Judes Dad]

There description is quite accurate,a lot of people think it is an aid to doing traffic light grand prix style take offs and adds to their launch procedure but it is a cornering/safety device.My w reg 2.0 focus had it and it did make a difference to heavy corner braking(not that I did a lot of it officer)

[Kevin Wood]

I beg to differ. ABS, TC and ESP/ESC are 3 entirely different things.

ABS prevents brake lockup and nothing more.
TC prevents wheelspin and nothing more.

ESP/ESC systems combine the above systems with other sensors such as a yaw sensor to detect the car's direction of acceleration and steering angle. These systems are able to apply the brakes and move the power intelligently to prevent slides.

Kevin

[cruisetopoland]

ABS: Antilock Braking System, senses when a wheel is travelling more slowly than expected-eg locked up and releases the brake, re-applying in pulses which can be felt through the pedal in a similar manner to the older manual system of cadence braking.

TC: Traction Control, detects wheel slippage under acceleration and reduces power.

ESP: Electronic Stability Programme
ESC: Electronic Stability Control
An electronic system which incorpoartes a yaw sensor and wheel speed sensors and detects the vehicle losing the desired directional control, applying individual brakes and reducing the power to driven wheels as necessary to keep the vehicle travelling where the steering wheel is pointing.

Some manufacturers like Skoda use different acronyms such as TSR, MSR etc.

Most recent vehicle are fitted with ABS, more powerful cars often gain TC, I believe ESP is essential and should be standard fitment across all newly supplied vehicles.

[rossi46]

Try a car with TC and no ESP like my Astra SRI. Then you will see the difference. With no yaw sensors, the TC will just give you either 0 or 100% power! Like a switch!

[Debs.]

Having spent a lot of time driving (locally) at <20 mph downhill on ice and snow; ABS doesn`t work at low or very-low speeds.....I realise (of course) that ABS has to have a minimum 'cutoff' speed, to allow you to come to a full stop at all: but seeing as many skids occur at low speeds whilst going down hills, it`s ironic that the ABS system can`t be relied-on in such circumstances.

IME: appropriate tyres, experience and due-caution play a more critical part in Winter driving safety than ABS (or T.C) technology.

[jerry]

Having spent a lot of time driving (locally) at <20 mph downhill on ice and snow; ABS doesn`t work at low or very-low speeds.....I realise (of course) that ABS has to have a minimum 'cutoff' speed, to allow you to come to a full stop at all: but seeing as many skids occur at low speeds whilst going down hills, it`s ironic that the ABS system can`t be relied-on in such circumstances.

IME: appropriate tyres, experience and due-caution play a more critical part in Winter driving safety than ABS (or T.C) technology.

Totally agree Debs-but must say Ive felt a lot safer having TC and the "snowflake", our other car is a Toyota Emina mpv which has none of these and with its height ,RWD and little weight in the back it didnt take long for the other half to discover the art of drifting 

[Del Boy]

Most cars have both but just the ESP button, if you hold the button for longer it disables both.

[cruisetopoland]

Having spent a lot of time driving (locally) at <20 mph downhill on ice and snow; ABS doesn`t work at low or very-low speeds.....I realise (of course) that ABS has to have a minimum 'cutoff' speed, to allow you to come to a full stop at all: but seeing as many skids occur at low speeds whilst going down hills, it`s ironic that the ABS system can`t be relied-on in such circumstances.

IME: appropriate tyres, experience and due-caution play a more critical part in Winter driving safety than ABS (or T.C) technology.

ABS is a hindrance at low speed on low adhesion surfaces, such as gravel, snow or ice as the brakes are constantly released and re-applied instead of the wheels locking and digging through the surface to find grip.  Some upmarket 4x4s offer intelligent or switchable ABS to allow for this.

ABS is most useful on swerve-avoidance manouevres as you can change direction as well as brake, without locking up (up to the limit of the tyres).

A friend uses an ABS Grand Vitara which is lethal on cliff-side wet grass slopes as it will NOT stop, compared to her previous old non-ABS Vitara which would just lock up and dig in.

Skill is more important than electronic aids, and tyres crucial in the equation as the laws of physics means that whatever assistance you have, the contact patch is the only part ofthe car in contact with the road.

I find TC to be more annying than useful, but ESP in connection with ABS is an absolute life-saver and allows you to undertake avoidance manouevres impossible in a car without it-the computer can react quicker than any human.

The problem is that most electronic systems are a cover all for all models, all drivers and an average driving environment and are not adjustable by the driver, due to this being over complex.

As stated, certain models can be adjusted to suit the conditions and prevent ABS, TC and ESP being a hindrance instead of a help.

The first thing I do when driving any vehicle is check what systems are available and adjust my driving style as necessary.
For example, an ABS-equipped car must be braked differently to a non-ABS car in an emergency situation-many drivers do not realise this.

More awareness of these systems is necessary.

[cruisetopoland]

Having spent a lot of time driving (locally) at <20 mph downhill on ice and snow; ABS doesn`t work at low or very-low speeds.....I realise (of course) that ABS has to have a minimum 'cutoff' speed, to allow you to come to a full stop at all: but seeing as many skids occur at low speeds whilst going down hills, it`s ironic that the ABS system can`t be relied-on in such circumstances.

IME: appropriate tyres, experience and due-caution play a more critical part in Winter driving safety than ABS (or T.C) technology.

Totally agree Debs-but must say Ive felt a lot safer having TC and the "snowflake", our other car is a Toyota Emina mpv which has none of these and with its height ,RWD and little weight in the back it didnt take long for the other half to discover the art of drifting 

The snowflake just starts it in third gear (useful) and traction just dips the power-you should be able to lessen the power!

The confidence is more to do with your perception, coupled with the lower, more stable chassis and better weight distribution of the Omega over the Emina-not the TC...

[TheBoy]

Kevin Wood is, of course, correct.

ESP was a (rare) option on UK Omegas - vast majority of V6 just have ABS/TC, and non V6 just have ABS.



TC stops wheelspin. On pre 1998 cars, it simply cuts 2 cylinders.

Post 98, firstly it applies brake to spinning wheel (if just 1), then starts cutting cylinders if that doesn't work.

[Andy B]

.....
For example, an ABS-equipped car must be braked differently to a non-ABS car in an emergency situation-many drivers do not realise this. .......

Don't you mean the other way round?  :-/  :-/  :-/
Emergency brake assist was dreamt up because Merc? was aware that drivers wouldn't just stand on the brakes & trust ABS to sort it out for them, instead they braked more hesitantly as though they were in a NON ABS car .......  :-/

[jereboam]

My experience with the Omega traction control led me to think that it was only enabled for forward gears.  But a couple of days ago I hit a patch of ice while reversing (with the mirrors) into my regular parking place, and I saw the TC flash on.  I have to admit that makes more sense, but I'm very surprised at how ineffective it usually is when reversing.

That said, I'm inclined to treat both the ABS and the TC as useful black ice detectors, and then rely on what I was taught years ago.  Despite having driven ABS equipped cars for at least the last 20 years, I still automatically use cadence braking - it's going to get me into trouble one day

[Kevin Wood]

I find the Omega TC quite good if you keep a little power on so you can hear the ABS pump start up and wait for it to brake the spinning wheel. Obviously nothing will help if neither rear wheel has traction.

On some cars (notably Volvo, oddly) it's a total pain on snow and you don't get anywhere without turning it off.

Likewise ABS. Some systems work OK, some are a pain. Probably down to how much they spent getting it calibrated for the car.

In this extreme weather, I sometimes get the feeling I would be better off without electronic aids but it must be a boon for the average "bounce it off the rev limiter and wait for it to move" level of driving skill that seems to be prevalent these days - sadly normally demonstrated in poverty spec Ford Focuses that don't have TC. 

Kevin

[TheBoy]

I find the Omega TC quite good if you keep a little power on so you can hear the ABS pump start up and wait for it to brake the spinning wheel. Obviously nothing will help if neither rear wheel has traction.

On some cars (notably Volvo, oddly) it's a total pain on snow and you don't get anywhere without turning it off.

Likewise ABS. Some systems work OK, some are a pain. Probably down to how much they spent getting it calibrated for the car.

In this extreme weather, I sometimes get the feeling I would be better off without electronic aids but it must be a boon for the average "bounce it off the rev limiter and wait for it to move" level of driving skill that seems to be prevalent these days - sadly normally demonstrated in poverty spec Ford Focuses that don't have TC. 

Kevin

Beemers also seem to have hopeless TC in the snow.

I reckon on ice, many ABS implementations aren't great - people are taught to jam the tinkers on hard with ABS, and on zero traction, that will never, ever end in anything but tears...

[Andy B]

I find the Omega TC quite good if you keep a little power on so you can hear the ABS pump start up and wait for it to brake the spinning wheel. Obviously nothing will help if neither rear wheel has traction.  ......

It don't help on our street. I had two goes at going up the slight hill the other day before I gave up & went the other way round. And it's snowed a LOT more since this photo

[TheBoy]

I find the Omega TC quite good if you keep a little power on so you can hear the ABS pump start up and wait for it to brake the spinning wheel. Obviously nothing will help if neither rear wheel has traction.  ......

It don't help on our street. I had two goes at going up the slight hill the other day before I gave up & went the other way round. And it's snowed a LOT more since this photo

Yours must be bust.  Mine rarely struggles on snow and ice, and I have friggin great wide tyres on.

[Andy B]

I find the Omega TC quite good if you keep a little power on so you can hear the ABS pump start up and wait for it to brake the spinning wheel. Obviously nothing will help if neither rear wheel has traction.  ......

It don't help on our street. I had two goes at going up the slight hill the other day before I gave up & went the other way round. And it's snowed a LOT more since this photo

Yours must be bust.  Mine rarely struggles on snow and ice, and I have friggin great wide tyres on.

Light still flashes ..... my tyres are 235's

I'll be perfect too one day ........

[TheBoy]

I find the Omega TC quite good if you keep a little power on so you can hear the ABS pump start up and wait for it to brake the spinning wheel. Obviously nothing will help if neither rear wheel has traction.  ......

It don't help on our street. I had two goes at going up the slight hill the other day before I gave up & went the other way round. And it's snowed a LOT more since this photo

Yours must be bust.  Mine rarely struggles on snow and ice, and I have friggin great wide tyres on.

Light still flashes ..... my tyres are 235's

I'll be perfect too one day ........

Yeah, occasionally the light flashes, but it never makes a meal of things.

From previous posts you've made about yours, I can only conclude yours is not working right.  Rear brakes fully effective?  Decent quality rubber on back?

 :-/

[Andy B]

.....  Rear brakes fully effective? 

Both up to MOT standard .....

..... Decent quality rubber on back?

 :-/

Relatively new branded rubber ..... but not your favourite     

Irrelevant though at the moment ........     

[Del Boy]

I find the Omega TC quite good if you keep a little power on so you can hear the ABS pump start up and wait for it to brake the spinning wheel. Obviously nothing will help if neither rear wheel has traction.

On some cars (notably Volvo, oddly) it's a total pain on snow and you don't get anywhere without turning it off.

Likewise ABS. Some systems work OK, some are a pain. Probably down to how much they spent getting it calibrated for the car.

In this extreme weather, I sometimes get the feeling I would be better off without electronic aids but it must be a boon for the average "bounce it off the rev limiter and wait for it to move" level of driving skill that seems to be prevalent these days - sadly normally demonstrated in poverty spec Ford Focuses that don't have TC. 

Kevin

Beemers also seem to have hopeless TC in the snow.

I reckon on ice, many ABS implementations aren't great - people are taught to jam the tinkers on hard with ABS, and on zero traction, that will never, ever end in anything but tears...

And in the wet was due to tyres but the DSC (included TC) was naff never stopped a slide once or never stopped it spinning and it was only a 2.0 diesel.

[TheBoy]

.....  Rear brakes fully effective? 

Both up to MOT standard .....

..... Decent quality rubber on back?

 :-/

Relatively new branded rubber ..... but not your favourite     

Brakes - do you have the figures?  My handbrake frequently passes an MOT, doesn't mean its any good!

Tyres - I tend to have SP9000s or SC2/3s on. Currently SP9000s.


Just trying to think why yours gives your so much grief, and mine does what its supposed to.

[hotel21]

Agree with Beemers being crap in the snow.  The 'company' cars I have previously driven generally had a boot full of kit as well as 3/4 or more in the tanl- always fuelled at the end of the shift so full for the start of the next.  Absobloodylootley crap in snow on the slightest of slopes.  Mind you, they were manuals...

Have to say that the Elite with autobox has behaved impeccably on the snow up here.  Use the snow button when needed but, generally, works fine without as long as you do not give it a bootfull of throttle expecting miracles!  the manual MV6, on lesser snow quantities but equally slippy, was hard work to get going from a standstill sometimes....

[Andy B]

.....
Brakes - do you have the figures?  My handbrake frequently passes an MOT, doesn't mean its any good!

Tyres - I tend to have SP9000s or SC2/3s on. Currently SP9000s.


Just trying to think why yours gives your so much grief, and mine does what its supposed to.

Really can't remember, MOT was last July & i have problems remembering what day it is!
It's not on a print out  .... is it?

My tyres are Michelin Pilot

My main gripe with TC ...... and it doesn't step in that often with reasonable tyres on, is that it's ON or OFF there's nothing in between.  You'd struggle getting anything UP the street at the moment that's not FWD. 

[TheBoy]

.....
Brakes - do you have the figures?  My handbrake frequently passes an MOT, doesn't mean its any good!

Tyres - I tend to have SP9000s or SC2/3s on. Currently SP9000s.


Just trying to think why yours gives your so much grief, and mine does what its supposed to.

Really can't remember, MOT was last July & i have problems remembering what day it is!
It's not on a print out  .... is it?

My tyres are Michelin Pilot

My main gripe with TC ...... and it doesn't step in that often with reasonable tyres on, is that it's ON or OFF there's nothing in between.  You'd struggle getting anything UP the street at the moment that's not FWD. 

Thats why I think there is something amiss with yours.  I have really played silly beggars with mine, driving like an utter ass, with revs oscillating between 4k and 5.5k, and it never really 'bogged' down - it just accelerated up to speed, though obviously when the tyres did eventually get some bite into the greasy, wet road, it really did then take off.


Naturally, if you're trying to lay 200bhp from a standing start with poor traction, what can it do? Its job is to minimise wheelspin. The rear brakes won't stop it, so it has to keep cutting an increasing number of cylinders until power <= traction - which may be a lot of cylinders if, even at this late stage in the process, you are still trying to lay 200bhp

[Andy B]

......
Naturally, if you're trying to lay 200bhp from a standing start with poor traction, what can it do? Its job is to minimise wheelspin. The rear brakes won't stop it, so it has to keep cutting an increasing number of cylinders until power <= traction - which may be a lot of cylinders if, even at this late stage in the process, you are still trying to lay 200bhp

C'mon Jamie! I've had a licence for over 30 yrs, TC failed me at the top of the hill, not the bottom! I gave it a run up, bearing mind there are cars either side of the road ....

[MaxV6]

I just had to go over to watlington to get my son, then up to sainsbury's for provisions....   enorrmous fun...    TC and snow mode working well.....  then, in order to demonstrate the difference, turned them off....  and showed my idiot son what a 4 wheel drift was...  and then how to drive sideways in both a straight line, and round roundabouts 

then turned them back on and drove rather more sensibly.


(very very empty car park....   and very very empty ring road....  anyone not used to driving in snow. should avoid travelling around oxford... the  main roads are 6 inches deep in places  side roads are as bad but underlayed with ice. )

[MaxV6]

(snow experience from 15 years living in the wilds of North Wales.....   and the heavy snow falls in the cotswolds in the 80's   )

[cem_devecioglu]

I discovered that a brand new "good quality" snow/ice tires (not usual -gay- all season tires)  are more effective under those circumstances..

and also discovered that in mud and sand the TC is a headache and must be closed in some occasions..

must add though, agreed Kevin, ESP is totally a different system..

few years ago had a bad braking experience on ice with normal summer tires.. the friction coefficient was definitely 0.0.. and no ABS on earth could stop my speed

my only luck was the front driver see me from mirror

[cruisetopoland]

.....
For example, an ABS-equipped car must be braked differently to a non-ABS car in an emergency situation-many drivers do not realise this. .......

Don't you mean the other way round?  :-/  :-/  :-/
Emergency brake assist was dreamt up because Merc? was aware that drivers wouldn't just stand on the brakes & trust ABS to sort it out for them, instead they braked more hesitantly as though they were in a NON ABS car .......  :-/

The difference is that in an ABS equipped car, you stand on the brakes and can steer at any stage in the braking time, whereas in a non-ABS car you brake firmly until you feel the traction being lost and then release slightly or cadence brake to lose as much speed as possible and then take evasive directional action right at the very end when most of the speed is lost.

EBA/brake assist was developed to sense when a driver was in an emergency braking situation and was not applying enough pressure for maximum braking, so increased the braking electronically.

Each one of the 87 cars and 16 motorbikes I have had plus endless company cars and coaches and buses I have driven have all had different braking characteristics, but the main difference in braking is the fitment or not of ABS.

Early ABS systems were clumsy and the main issue is with them being over-sensitive; my 2004 Berlingo used to activate ABS all the time, leaving you heading towards the back of the car in front alarmingly, even in traffic!

The main failing of ABS is the fact that it will not recognise snow, gravel and other surfaces where locking the wheels and digging in would be better than ABS taking off the brakes.

[MaxV6]

the one thing i'd like added to my m iggy, an off button for the ABS... like my old Quattro S1 had...

[KillerWatt]

.....  Rear brakes fully effective? 

Both up to MOT standard .....

The MOT isn't worth the paper it is written on Andy

[TheBoy]

The difference is that in an ABS equipped car, you stand on the brakes and can steer at any stage in the braking time

That does depend on surface.  On sheet ice, for example, you may find you still have to release brakes significantly to get any steering

[TheBoy]

the one thing i'd like added to my m iggy, an off button for the ABS... like my old Quattro S1 had...

Omega has a built in one - the ECU fails


I do agree - I frequently used to pull the fuse from my old MkII Astra GTE, as it wasn't hugely effective on that car...

[cruisetopoland]

The difference is that in an ABS equipped car, you stand on the brakes and can steer at any stage in the braking time

That does depend on surface.  On sheet ice, for example, you may find you still have to release brakes significantly to get any steering

On the previous post I put about this working up to the limit of the tyres...

On sheet ice, I release the brakes and steer to follow the car's direction-hoping there is nothing  in the way before the surface changes and I can brake again...!

[Andy B]

.....  Rear brakes fully effective? 

Both up to MOT standard .....

The MOT isn't worth the paper it is written on Andy

The readings on the machine were both pretty similar, and the paper that the MOT was printed on then allowed me to tax the car & keep it on the road. 

[TheBoy]

.....  Rear brakes fully effective? 

Both up to MOT standard .....

The MOT isn't worth the paper it is written on Andy

The readings on the machine were both pretty similar, and the paper that the MOT was printed on then allowed me to tax the car & keep it on the road. 

I agree, the MOT is worth more than the paper its written on.  We know the MOT just means the car was possibly at a set standard, as far as could be determined on the day. *BUT* it does mean that PC Plod won't have a field day, so worth every penny

[Amigo]

I've found the TC to be a hinderance when pulling in snow/ice. 2nd gear & little if any revs, let the clutch do the work...that's if you have a clutch! 8-)

[TheBoy]

I've found the TC to be a hinderance when pulling in snow/ice. 2nd gear & little if any revs, let the clutch do the work...that's if you have a clutch! 8-)

Just went out in the Rover to check what the main roads were like (not that great, sadly).  I was showboating and arsing around - lots of revs, dumping clutch, using handbrake. Boys will be boys

[Kevin Wood]

Can't be @rsed to get any of the cars out. Snow level is above the centre of the hubs on the MV6, same against the garage door. MV6 has also deposited a huge amount of snow, that was on the roof, behind it on the drive, so more like top of the bumper level now. And it's started to freeze and go crispy. Oh, joy!

Kevin

[Amigo]

Seems Oxford / Hants. are getting hit harder than usual this year.

[rossi46]

Can't be @rsed to get any of the cars out. Snow level is above the centre of the hubs on the MV6, same against the garage door. MV6 has also deposited a huge amount of snow, that was on the roof, behind it on the drive, so more like top of the bumper level now. And it's started to freeze and go crispy. Oh, joy!

Kevin

Same here, spend half an hour trying to get the Astra out and gave up and took the bus 

[HerefordElite]

I've found the TC to be a hinderance when pulling in snow/ice. 2nd gear & little if any revs, let the clutch do the work...that's if you have a clutch! 8-)

or press the 'snow' button if you have an auto and it sticks it in 3rd for you (IIRC)

[TheBoy]

Took the FWD Rover into town earlier. Wish I hadn't to be honest.  Should have walked, lazy git that I am...