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[jharv]

Hi,

I have a problem with a 1997 Vx Omega CDxi 2.5.
When I turn OFF the engine and REMOVE the key, the electrics sometimes stays ON.
This has now happened three times in the past few weeks & fully flattens the battery if not caught in time.
The first 2 no idea why started working again after a recharge & general tinkering about, but now not working.

The electrics are:
- dash warning lights ON (all those before the engine starts-up),
- plus the heater/ climate control is ON but could not hear any fans.
- this last time the engine would not start.
- possibly other electrics stay on as well but seems pointless to investigate further what is ON & OFF at this stage.
- BUT all the lights are dimmer than normal. When the Ign key is reinstered & turned ON, the lights return to their normal brightness.
- if battery disconnected & reconnected later, behaviour above unchanged

I assume that the problem is either a faulty relay or the ignition key switch being faulty, and NOT the ECU (since when car starts up it behaves correctly).
However because the lights dim when the key is removed (or behaves normally & all go out), then the key switch would seem to be OK as the contacts (assume 1 for each key position) must be opening & closing correctly.

I have removed all the relays in the fuse compartment under the steering wheel, and as expected the lights stay ON.
I have removed all the relays in the ECU compartment, one by one, and again the lights stay ON.

I am not sure what other relay(s) could be affecting the control, and where this/ these could be.
I have the Haynes manual but I do not find the electric wiring diagram very useful/ clear to trace out general faults.

I have searched the various postings but cannot find anything similar.

Any advice in tracking down this problem would be gratefully received.

Many thanks.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Try removing the electrical connector from the rear of the ignition switch

[jharv]

Thankyou for the suggestion.
I have tried removing the connections from the ignition switch but this made no difference; electrics still on.

Unfortunately in trying to remove the wiring from the switch, the switch has broken apart since the cables do not come out of the switch easily. So the switch is now in pieces.
Any other suggestions would still be welcome.

[cleggy]

I have a similiar problem in that sometimes when I remove the key the radio stays on. I simply reinsert the key, and withdraw it     and it cuts off the power. Yes it would be a problem if left on, but I've kinda got used to it now, and make sure it is off before I leave the car.

[rustym95]

the barrial may need cleaning out, fluff from your pockets can stick to the key and then you push it in the barrial and then this starts, would take out the barrial and flush it out with some wd40 or similer,

[Dave DND]

the barrial may need cleaning out, fluff from your pockets can stick to the key and then you push it in the barrial and then this starts, would take out the barrial and flush it out with some wd40 or similer,

Dont use WD40 on an ignition barrell - you`ll wreck it, as the residue of any grease will form in a large clump and wear the key fairly quickly - ask any locksmith and they will confirm this

 

Only ever use graphite powder to lubricate a lock

 

[Steve C]

Not the wrong type of tail light fitted, is it?

I know Astras and Vectras display the same quirk when you fight a single filament bulb.

[jharv]

Hi
Thank you for all the replies.
I can be sure that the problem is NOT the ignition key switch.
Having now rebuilt the switch and taken off the cable connector, the problem is unchanged.
Nor is it the rear bulb.

The problem of the car not starting up, but turning over, has been repeated now a number of times.
The problem has now progressed to when the key is removed, the engine sometimes will NOT stop.
Disconnecting the battery does NOT stop the engine when in this mode !

I have now found:

1) The car often behaves normally but less so recently.

2) The ignition key does not affect the problem. The problems seems to be a fault tied to 1 or more of the many circuits that totally bypass the ignition key (e.g. alarm, cooling fan run-on, air con run-on, curtesy lights, hazzard lights, central locking, radio etc etc.).

3a) When the electrics stay on (engine startup lights ON but dimmer than normal & climate control lights), removing the relays in the fuse compartment & next to the EMC (engine compartment relay cluster) has no effect.
3b) The Battery has to be disconnected to avoid a rapid flat battery.
3c) When restarting the car, sometimes the car will not start, with the engine warning light flashing and random faults (such as automatic gearbox fault) displayed. Disconnecting & reconnecting the Battery SOMETIMES clears the flashing engine warning light & car can restart. I am now fairly sure that this is a result of low voltage being fed to the Engine Management Computer causing unpredictable engine behaviour when normal voltage is reapplied on normal turn-on - see Fuse 14 below. Hence I think that this behaviour (3c) is a red-herring.

FUSE 14:
4a) Removing this fuse always allows the car to start (but disables PAS amongst other things).
4b) Removing this fuse will stop the car IF the car keeps on running after the key has been removed (with or without battery disconnection).
4c) Removing this fuse causes the dash lights to go out if they have stayed ON (key removed).
4d) Removing this fuse does NOT stop the climate control lights from staying ON

Fuse 12:
5a)  When this is removed, the climate control lights will go out (seems to be OFF from the instrument controls) BUT the
climate control fans can now be heard to be working but at low speed. Only cure is again to disconnect the battery.
5b) When fitted AND Fuse 14 removed the climate control lights are ON but there is virtually no power draw. I can leave the car in this state all night & start it up OK the following day.

The fault has all the hallmarks of being 1 or more relays being faulty (but not those mentioned above - 3a). Conceivably it could be a wiring fault but the fact that the car can work normally at times AND the behaviour can change with battery disconnection/ reconnection or fuse removal, i.e. with no movement of the car affecting wiring (vibration or wire movement from car travel), seems to dispel this hypothesis.

Feedback gratefully received.

Many Thanks.

[Andy B]

....
Feedback gratefully received.

Many Thanks.

I'm sorry that I can't be more constructive .....  but it appears a gallon petrol & a box of Swanvestas might come in handy!     

[Chris_H]

Sounds to me like a short in the loom somewhere.  Best chance of finding it would be to wiggle what loom you can get your hands on whilst monitoring something that's 'on' and shouldn't be.  Start as gently as possible 'cos if you wiggle the whole lot you've learned nothing (much).

Another possibility is to pull fuses until the fault goes away.  That might point you to the circuit that's providing the power when it shouldn't.

I remember with my Senator that one circuit (I think it was rear screen heater etc.) would melt the fuse box because the fuse assembly could not take the current.  The possibility was there for the fuse to move and interfere with the adjacent circuit.  Mind you, I could smell the problem!

[Dave DND]

Try removing the radio and see if it makes a difference

 :-?

[Andy H]

Try removing the radio and see if it makes a difference

 :-?

Is it the original radio?

I know nothing about you cars history but I would be looking for either a poor aftermarket radio install or caravan wiring (particular warning signs being: sticky tape, twisted together wires and Scotchblocks).

[unlucky alf]

going on what you say about ign light glowing but dimmer points to a failed diode pack in the alternator, failing that i would still change the ignition switch as ive had them throw up allsorts of quirky faults in the past, as its only a matter of unplugging it & plugging in another before fitting it to the barrel assy its an easy thing to eliminate.

[Dave DND]

Try removing the radio and see if it makes a difference

 :-?

Is it the original radio?

I know nothing about you cars history but I would be looking for either a poor aftermarket radio install or caravan wiring (particular warning signs being: sticky tape, twisted together wires and Scotchblocks).

Unlikely for an aftermarket radio to develop this kind of fault - bad wiring / incorrect installation would be shown up when fitted

Not uncommon for OEM radio to do this - On other Vx models, Astra Vectra etc, fault is often caused by knackered Beesting aerial that is full of water and staying on

 

[Kevin Wood]

I would try removing the power sounder too. They have both a permanent and switched feed to them, in close proximity, and in a position prone to getting shorted by crud from leaking batteries.

When the engine is running-on can it be stopped by switching on a heavy load in the ignition circuit? I.E. heated seats, front cigar lighter, etc?

Kevin

[jharv]

Try removing the radio and see if it makes a difference

 :-?

Is it the original radio?

I know nothing about you cars history but I would be looking for either a poor aftermarket radio install or caravan wiring (particular warning signs being: sticky tape, twisted together wires and Scotchblocks).

Unlikely for an aftermarket radio to develop this kind of fault - bad wiring / incorrect installation would be shown up when fitted

Not uncommon for OEM radio to do this - On other Vx models, Astra Vectra etc, fault is often caused by knackered Beesting aerial that is full of water and staying on

 

The radio is the original Vx one with CD autochanger.
I have taken out the radio but has no effect on the problem.
I did consider the radio as a possibility as my grandson posted various coins into it and I had to remove the radio & covers to remove the coins. The radio since has recently often gone off & on whilst driving (seems to loose power and then regains it again immediately) but could be down to more coins being posted. Anyway if removed it cannot be the cause of the problem.
The car does have tow bar wiring but this was installed soon after being bought back in 1998 (2 owners from new). All the electrics at the 2 sockets exhibit expected behaviour so unlikely that this is the cause.

[jharv]

I would try removing the power sounder too. They have both a permanent and switched feed to them, in close proximity, and in a position prone to getting shorted by crud from leaking batteries.

When the engine is running-on can it be stopped by switching on a heavy load in the ignition circuit? I.E. heated seats, front cigar lighter, etc?

Kevin

I will have a look at the power sounder.
Not sure about the heavy load since I am now running the car almost all of the time with fuse 14 removed. Bizzarly, if I turn on a heated seat control (no F14), the PAS sometimes starts to work & continues so even when the seat heater is turned off. All these items (Seat heaters, PAS etc should be not working with F14 removed, but I am guessing that enough power is leaking into the circuit fed by F14 from some other device (or wiring loom fault) to enable the appropriate relay controls to operate.

[jharv]

I would try removing the power sounder too. They have both a permanent and switched feed to them, in close proximity, and in a position prone to getting shorted by crud from leaking batteries.

When the engine is running-on can it be stopped by switching on a heavy load in the ignition circuit? I.E. heated seats, front cigar lighter, etc?

Kevin

I will have a look at the power sounder.
Not sure about the heavy load since I am now running the car almost all of the time with fuse 14 removed. Bizzarly, if I turn on a heated seat control (no F14), the PAS sometimes starts to work & continues so even when the seat heater is turned off. All these items (Seat heaters, PAS etc should be not working with F14 removed, but I am guessing that enough power is leaking into the circuit fed by F14 from some other device (or wiring loom fault) to enable the appropriate relay controls to operate.

Thankyou everyone for the comments.
The heavy load had no effect.
I have now found the fault, this was not the power sounder but the Anti Theft Warning Sounder under the RH scuttle. When this was disconnected normal service was resumed.

[Andy H]

Thankyou everyone for the comments.
The heavy load had no effect.
I have now found the fault, this was not the power sounder but the Anti Theft Warning Sounder under the RH scuttle. When this was disconnected normal service was resumed.

aren't those just different names for the same device?  :-/

[jharv]

Thankyou everyone for the comments.
The heavy load had no effect.
I have now found the fault, this was not the power sounder but the Anti Theft Warning Sounder under the RH scuttle. When this was disconnected normal service was resumed.

aren't those just different names for the same device?  :-/

Not according to the Haynes manual from the electric wiring diagram for circuit 957, and associated description Ch12- Sect 22.6 & 22.4. The former is H47 the Anti theft alarm horn and fed by the 30A power feed FV5 (mounted either under the scuttle or under the LH wing), the later H24 the Warning horn (under the scuttle - RH side) and fed from F14.

[Entwood]

Anti theft alarm is the "normal" alarm you get if you, for example, leave a window open, lock the car, and wave your arm inside ... 

Power sounder alarm is the one with the self contained batteries that will go off if Mr Scrote disconnects the battery to stop the first one (anti Theft Alarm) going off.

One is just a horn .. the other is a horn with batteries ... 

[Andy H]

Thankyou everyone for the comments.
The heavy load had no effect.
I have now found the fault, this was not the power sounder but the Anti Theft Warning Sounder under the RH scuttle. When this was disconnected normal service was resumed.

aren't those just different names for the same device?  :-/

Not according to the Haynes manual from the electric wiring diagram for circuit 957, and associated description Ch12- Sect 22.6 & 22.4. The former is H47 the Anti theft alarm horn and fed by the 30A power feed FV5 (mounted either under the scuttle or under the LH wing), the later H24 the Warning horn (under the scuttle - RH side) and fed from F14.

So they both have a live feed. I suppose it makes sense that anti theft alarms should be difficult to turn off but I am a bit supprised that the simple horn has a live feed, I assumed it was powered from the alarm module (but only when the alarm went off).

[Entwood]

I think it is "triggered" by a low power signal from the alarm module .. but "powered" by the live feed.  Most horns actually need a fair amount of energy (highish current) to make any sort of decent noise.  I doubt the Alarm ECU could handle that sort of currrent

Willing to be told I'm wrong mind ... I get used to it !!!!!! 

[mikeomega]

Just came across this website, and glad i did! I had the same problem and my car has been sitting outside for 3 months  ,... didn't want to get ripped off!. I took the panel off as described, and the alarm sounder had melted and all the wires were shorting. Cut the wires back to good, taped up,.... and.... the bloody car works. Wahay :-) Can 't believe it, cheers! 

[Entwood]

Glad we could help .. and

"Hello" and Welcome .. 

[PhilRich]

Just came across this website, and glad i did! I had the same problem and my car has been sitting outside for 3 months  ,... didn't want to get ripped off!. I took the panel off as described, and the alarm sounder had melted and all the wires were shorting. Cut the wires back to good, taped up,.... and.... the bloody car works. Wahay :-) Can 't believe it, cheers! 

Hello & welcome from me too Mike .