Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: deviator on 18 May 2015, 15:13:39
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I have searched and found plenty of useful info, but as the majority of threads/guides are a few years old, I thought I just clarify a couple of points.
Firstly, I'm looking at doing this once the car is proven entity. I don't want to spend this and end up shifting it from car to car. On that basis I intend to service and then run the car for a month or two to get the 'feel' of it.
Secondly, a friend of mine is the local LPG supplier/fitter. So I have easy access to help/advise/equipment etc;
1. The guides on here make use of the Stag kit, is this still the preferred kit for the Mig? Or am I better with something else? Or even selecting the components individually?
2. I couldn't find any guides covering the spare wheel tank or the pipe ends. Do they exist?
3. As it's an estate, spare wheel well is the better location. What do you do about a spare? Not bother? Leave it loose in the boot? I have a space saver that will fit the Mig, I could use this, unless there are better solutions.
4. What sort of costs are involved? When I asked my mate for a rough figure, he said £800 for the kit and £70 for the certificate. Does this sound about right?
5. I read in the guides that there (paraphrased) is less bang for your buck with gas. I thought it was the other way around? I thought there was (slight) power to be gained? Doesn't LPG have an octane rating of over 100? (Whereas unleaded 95, super unleaded 97,99 and if you're really lucky, 103)
6. On a side note, the 2.6 in my car has a suspected valve stem oil seal issue. (I've had this before on 2.6's). As I have a 3.2 from a Signum laying around, I may well put this in. Based on the guides, it will require a recalibration and possibly new nozzle holes drilling. Does this sound right?
Sorry for all the questions, as I'm at the research stage and trying to gather as much information as possible.
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OK, my take on it:
1. Stag kit has by far the most experience here, so is the best choice if you want support here. Not up to date with the latest developments, but my Stag kit has clocked up over 100k miles and is still going strong. IMHO, you are better off buying a complete kit of parts from one supplier, as you have better support if it doesn't work well when put together. ;-)
2. It has been done by a few here. You have to raise the boot floor to get a sensible range from a spare wheel tank in an estate. Lazydocker is the one to ask, but be patient, as he's not on here often these days. You might find a few pictures with a search...
3. Up to you. Mine's a saloon, so not something that I've come across. Note that the only spare wheel ever issued on an Omega is the steel spare (15or16" IIRC). Driving on a tiny space saver might cause insurance issues, as there isn't one that was ever designed for the Omega.
4. That's about what we were paying 7 or 8 years ago, so that sounds good.
5. You will get slightly less power from LPG when injecting vapour, as most systems do. It's a fuel in a much less dense form than petrol, so it displaces some air from the intake, reducing the power that the engine can ultimately make. Having said that, it's not noticeable if the LPG system is working properly, in practice.
6. Possibly, although the 2.6 used the same petrol injectors as the 3.2, so might work OK on the same LPG nozzle size. Any competent kit would work well with either engine as long as you avoid getting a vapouriser that's not up to the job.
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My 2p...
1) There is a lot of info on the Stag kit, both here and across the internet. Most manufacturers keep the info to their own fitters - the LPG industry is definitely all about keeping the approved fitters in a job, and definitely not about the customer. Be aware, though, a Stag kit may not contain main AC Stag items, possibly just the ECU, with injectors and vapourisers sourced elsewhere. Both of these need to be up to the job, and you may find many aren't.
2 & 3) Mine are saloons.
4) I paid under £600 for both of my v6 kits, so £800 sounds about right for a cheap kit with a capable vapouriser and 4 hole tank.
5) the power difference is not really noticeable. The reduced mpg is, in the magnitude of 15-20%. Overall, running costs are about 35-40% less.
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Very wise to get the car right first IMO. As you say. It's a long term thing is LPG, so with long term ownership in mind, as it will need to be to get your costs back on the kit in savings, IMO it's wise to replace the coil pacs and plugs and do the cam cover gaskets while it's in bits for manifold and injector fitting. Maybe in one weekend. Run the car midweek and let it settle. Seal the scuttle at some point. Next weekend do the rear and tank fitting and connect it all up. Because you can guarantee the LPG will give the ignition system some grief and find the slightest fault as LPG is harder to ignite.
1 stag has the easiest access to lappy software and computer leads. You need these to calibrate it. There are other kits that work just fine, bot those manufacturers such as Prins and Brc are quite deliberate in making access to these as awkward as possible.
2/3 salon here too. But I know at least one member who raised the estate boot floor in order to fit a bigger capacity tank. (80litres?) the wheel well isn't really big enough but it's the best option for the estate. Spare in the boot in a wheel bag if there's room. If the all the boot is needed take the wheel bag out and risk it. Or put it behind the passenger seat. Always carry a spare if there's room.
4 yes, but budget for better injectors if wanting to avoid lag on gear changes with autos. (Hanna green here £100, Kehin copies) most places charge two hours labour for certification Ime.
5 no, gas gives up to about 10% less power. But you shouldn't really notice this. Saves about 1/3 in fuel costs.
6 it will require re calibration if anything changes, although the newer stag ecu,s now have adaptions that allow a lot of fine tuning automatically as you drive it. It works very well, or at least the map was cock on last time I checked it. So, depends which ecu features yours has. Adaptions should sort any slight differences automatically. But if you have the software and lead available with the stag kits then no problem either way. Although it takes some practice to get the mapping sussed. Especially to the point where you need to decide on nozzle sizes and drilling etc.
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4) I paid under £600 for both of my v6 kits, so £800 sounds about right for a cheap kit with a capable vapouriser and 4 hole tank.
Yes, I should have said that that ought to be a price for everything you need down to the last fitting. I paid about £700 including 4 hole tank and everything I needed.
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Just go add, stag has loads of settings to allow a wide range of vaporisers and injectors. So it's quite feasible to buy the stag ecu and loom, and fit your choice of vap and injectors as you wish. It's worth spending a few quid extra on these to avoid any running issues, such as hunting at tickover, lag in gear changes and running out of puff at wot. :)
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Kevin, I found the Lazydocker thread here (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=43138.0). I like the idea but I'm not sure I really want to raise the floor. I like the estate for the flat loading of heavy items, although maybe I'm getting sensitive about 2-3 inches ::) With regards the space saver, it was from a Saab, so not the lightest of cars. I do take the insurance point on board though and would carry a spare in the boot and the space saver would be for the rare occasion I need all of the load capacity.
TheBoy, from the googling and searches on here, they seem to be trying to shut the door on the DIY install, which I can kind of understand, but it's a shame. (Apparently now even AC repairs need to carried out by trained people). I'm lucky in the respect that I have a friend who will support (and hopefully) ultimately certify the install.
Chris, as I mentioned above I will be 'proving' the car before spending the money. From what I've seen, there is only a small spot of rust on the arch. I'm going to get the car up on the ramps and have a good poke around to make sure it really is as solid as it looks. If it is, then I'll probably just build the 3.2 with new gaskets, metal cam covers, thermostat, cambelt, wp etc; Ideally acquiring a complete lower plenum on the way, to aid the prep work. With regards the coil packs, I may have one or two spare sets for the 2.6/3.2 laying around, but valid point.
I think whilst I am checking the car over, I will have a chat with my mate and see what kits or parts they use and prefer. Then I can investigate a few different solutions and decide which is right for me. The 800 pounds was for everything and based on vapouriser capable of approximately 250bhp, as I like overkill. My friend suggested that you should be aiming the keep the car for about 5 years, although as I spend 200-300 pounds a month on fuel already, I'd expect my savings to be seen in about a year.
Thanks for the great responses.
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Vapourisers are very optimistically rated, so no harm in going overkill. :y
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Kme gold on several gas cars on here. For example :)
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Kme gold on several gas cars on here. For example :)
Indeed. Rated at 320 BHP, as is the Voltran one on my car.
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based on vapouriser capable of approximately 250bhp, as I like overkill
That *may* struggle at full chat, as they are never capable of what they claim, as the others have hinted.
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based on vapouriser capable of approximately 250bhp, as I like overkill
That *may* struggle at full chat, as they are never capable of what they claim, as the others have hinted.
To be honest a quick Google suggests the KME Gold is about 90 pounds. So really it's a no brainer.
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based on vapouriser capable of approximately 250bhp, as I like overkill
That *may* struggle at full chat, as they are never capable of what they claim, as the others have hinted.
To be honest a quick Google suggests the KME Gold is about 90 pounds. So really it's a no brainer.
Indeed. It's been tried and tested, known to work well on an Omega. :y
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My 3.2 V6 was purchased with LPG already installed by profess autogas between Merthyr and Newport in Wales. They seem to have very good prices and only install stag systems. They also issue the all important Certificate of Installation. The guys there are really experienced and the unit gets a 5 year guarantee so long as they service it each year (£60). Have had a few issues with faulty sensors changing the car back to petrol that they have fixed free of charge. My experience with them has been very positive. And, no, I don't work for them! It's worth having a look at their website: www.professautogas.co.uk
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My 3.2 V6 was purchased with LPG already installed by profess autogas between Merthyr and Newport in Wales. They seem to have very good prices and only install stag systems. They also issue the all important Certificate of Installation. The guys there are really experienced and the unit gets a 5 year guarantee so long as they service it each year (£60). Have had a few issues with faulty sensors changing the car back to petrol that they have fixed free of charge. My experience with them has been very positive. And, no, I don't work for them! It's worth having a look at their website: www.professautogas.co.uk
Sounds good. Although not sure how they justify a £60 LPG service? Done sod all to mine since install...
They quote £999 for 5-6 pot engines, which is not bad. I think the kit would be at least £800 if you went DIY.
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Yeah. I just accept that it's the cost of keeping the system in warranty. I think they change the filter and connect diagnostics to see if any tweeks need doing. Bit of a pain having to travel there. On the positive side they sell gas cheap compared to what I have to pay locally.
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Yeah. I just accept that it's the cost of keeping the system in warranty. I think they change the filter and connect diagnostics to see if any tweeks need doing. Bit of a pain having to travel there. On the positive side they sell gas cheap compared to what I have to pay locally.
But £60 each year of 5 years, would save up a lot. I'd more more inclined to change the filter myself, pocket the £60 :y
I had a response from them, it's £999 plus vat. So £1.2k.
Still reasonable price, do you have any photos of your install? :y
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I can send some. Don't know how to post pictures on here. I'll take some and send to your email?
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Think my profile has email link. I'll post them up here :y
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Sorry Tunnie. I'm a bit of a thicky when it comes to adding attachments. Can't see how to PM you the pictures, I have hastily taken. If you have an email address I can send them that way.
Best regards
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My 3.2 V6 was purchased with LPG already installed by profess autogas between Merthyr and Newport in Wales. They seem to have very good prices and only install stag systems. They also issue the all important Certificate of Installation. The guys there are really experienced and the unit gets a 5 year guarantee so long as they service it each year (£60). Have had a few issues with faulty sensors changing the car back to petrol that they have fixed free of charge. My experience with them has been very positive. And, no, I don't work for them! It's worth having a look at their website: www.professautogas.co.uk
Stop handing them your money. £60 for a service? To change a filter worth £5 or less? Daylight robbery.
In addition Profess have some of the worst done in a day installs I have seen in a while. Because they do it in a day, they do not/cannot do a cold calibration.
In nearly 3 yrs and 90k miles, I have had one filter change and that was done for free by my installer.
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Who installed yours?
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Look at the filler on this Jag link (http://www.professautogas.co.uk/index.php/jaguar-lpg-conversion). I mean who installs a filler in such a place? Lie on the floor trying to locate the filler gun?
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Look at the filler on this Jag link (http://www.professautogas.co.uk/index.php/jaguar-lpg-conversion). I mean who installs a filler in such a place? Lie on the floor trying to locate the filler gun?
Its possible the owner requested that in order to be hidden, rather than the usual, unsightly mounting in the wing.
Still, wouldn't be my preferred location ;D
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My 3.2 V6 was purchased with LPG already installed by profess autogas between Merthyr and Newport in Wales. They seem to have very good prices and only install stag systems. They also issue the all important Certificate of Installation. The guys there are really experienced and the unit gets a 5 year guarantee so long as they service it each year (£60). Have had a few issues with faulty sensors changing the car back to petrol that they have fixed free of charge. My experience with them has been very positive. And, no, I don't work for them! It's worth having a look at their website: www.professautogas.co.uk
I've seen some of their work in person....... Politest description would be Kwik-Fit of the LPG industry :-X ::)
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My 3.2 V6 was purchased with LPG already installed by profess autogas between Merthyr and Newport in Wales. They seem to have very good prices and only install stag systems. They also issue the all important Certificate of Installation. The guys there are really experienced and the unit gets a 5 year guarantee so long as they service it each year (£60). Have had a few issues with faulty sensors changing the car back to petrol that they have fixed free of charge. My experience with them has been very positive. And, no, I don't work for them! It's worth having a look at their website: www.professautogas.co.uk
Stop handing them your money. £60 for a service? To change a filter worth £5 or less? Daylight robbery.
In addition Profess have some of the worst done in a day installs I have seen in a while. Because they do it in a day, they do not/cannot do a cold calibration.
In nearly 3 yrs and 90k miles, I have had one filter change and that was done for free by my installer.
A respectful question, but please may I ask what you mean by a cold calibration?
I ask because, my understanding, is that an lpg system cannot be calobrated without the reducer being at full operating temperature? :y
(Indeed I know the stag ecu refuses to calibrated unless the reducer is over a certain temp - 80 def I believe)? :y
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Have to agree with above,think its around 50 deg before it can do the calibration set up.
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My 3.2 V6 was purchased with LPG already installed by profess autogas between Merthyr and Newport in Wales. They seem to have very good prices and only install stag systems. They also issue the all important Certificate of Installation. The guys there are really experienced and the unit gets a 5 year guarantee so long as they service it each year (£60). Have had a few issues with faulty sensors changing the car back to petrol that they have fixed free of charge. My experience with them has been very positive. And, no, I don't work for them! It's worth having a look at their website: www.professautogas.co.uk
Stop handing them your money. £60 for a service? To change a filter worth £5 or less? Daylight robbery.
In addition Profess have some of the worst done in a day installs I have seen in a while. Because they do it in a day, they do not/cannot do a cold calibration.
In nearly 3 yrs and 90k miles, I have had one filter change and that was done for free by my installer.
A respectful question, but please may I ask what you mean by a cold calibration?
I ask because, my understanding, is that an lpg system cannot be calobrated without the reducer being at full operating temperature? :y
(Indeed I know the stag ecu refuses to calibrated unless the reducer is over a certain temp - 80 def I believe)? :y
Sorry, worded that wrong. But your point is correct. Profess install in a day, warm the engine to calibrate. then they dont have time to let the engine cool down and assess a cold start and any switch over issues. I struggle to understand how this is possible from a done in a day company. Unless they are only doing one model of car, which they dont.
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D it's not inconceivable that adaptions can take over the process from a very early stage.
Having installed LPG on a couple of cars here Including my own twice I can see both that your concerns are justified, and also that if a company is looking to achieve hi Turnaround to achieve a profit AND avoid inconveniencing its customers for more than a day at a reasonable price in a competitive market then this is the way to go about it.
....if the quality is there of course. But as we know, quality comes at a price and takes time.
You pays your money.... Etc.
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If the plans are to convert a 3.2 Estate to LPG? might be easier to buy one thats already been converted. ;)
Cough, think I might know a nice MV6 one that's coming up for sale soon, Cough.
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If the plans are to convert a 3.2 Estate to LPG? might be easier to buy one thats already been converted. ;)
Cough, think I might know a nice MV6 one that's coming up for sale soon, Cough.
Cough, cough, depends on the money. Also is it a manual?